Polling other parents with Majority Parenting Time

[Quicksylver]

My partner's ex has undiagnosed BPD with definite histrionic leanings. They had a daughter together (SD6). Due to BPD's physical, emotional and verbal abuse of SD6, my partner and I decided to go for full custody and a significantly modified parenting plan which gives BPD only every other weekend and a bimonthly dinner date with SD6. We won our case in June, started the new parenting schedule in July and started enforcing the communication standards (luckily also detailed in our legal paperwork) in August. These communication standards only allow her to text us for 3 very clear reasons (to talk to SD6 (phone calls are limited to 3x a week), to report an emergency with SD6, or to communicate about drop off/pick up info ("I'm in the back parking lot," etc.) and direct her to email us about all other concerns. These standards have been an absolute god send. They've allowed my partner and I to step back all the way to only communicating directly with her about once or twice a week. As healing as this space has been, I'm starting to come across some new issues that I wanted to poll the room on.

**Most of the co-parenting posts that I've seen tend to be either folks in the early stages of their legal battles (my heart goes out to you) or folks whose kids are with their BPD parent the majority of the time. While I value your input as well, I'm curious if there are any other majority parenting time holders in here who can pass along their advice? I'm starting to wade deeper than most of the books / resources that I've collected can guide me (the ones I've gathered tend to focus on either analyzing BPD itself or on the negative impact BPD parenting can have over long periods of time, particularly when the BPD has the majority parenting time -which seems to be case for the majority of folks?).

Okay on to the meat of my quandary. SD6 is thriving in almost every way, far exceeding my partner and my original expectations. Her teachers have all commented in her amazing turn around from last year (SD6 had a lot of behavioral challenges last year, stemming from her dysfunctional time with BPD). However, since the implementation of our new parenting time schedule, BPD has started volunteering 2, 3, sometimes 4 times a week at SD6's school. We've been in communication with her teachers the whole time, who've all been really supportive. BPD originally was just walking into the school without signing in or letting SD6's teachers know ahead of time. This took a few weeks to resolve but eventually BPD was talked to by the school counselor and clear rules for her were laid out. The issue that is continuing to pop up is SD6's emotional capability to handle BPD. SD6 is always happy to see her, at first. Depending on BPD's mood / intentions that day, SD6 has become really sad and has started crying over "not knowing when [she is] going to see her again." We've been very proactive with SD6 about her schedule (visual calendars and reminders, verbal reminders before she goes to school, etc.) but SD6 can barely tell one day from the next and is extremely vulnerable to BPD's manipulations ("I only get such and such amount of time with you now. You might never see me again." kind of thing).

BPD has gotten more and more ridiculous with these manipulations over the past few months. She spent an hour crying in SD6's arms before we picked her up last weekend, telling SD6 she was "just SO sad that [she] didn't get to see her more." SD6 came home very confused and frankly, kind of scared. Meanwhile BPD volunteered the very next day in SD6's class room...

Another recent example was at SD6's soccer game. BPD spent the entire time winding SD6 up for a massive breakdown (due to the game schedule, SD6 was to arrive to the game with BPD and leave with us). SD6 arrived to the game nearly in tears and was only able to play for about half the game due to needing to be near BPD almost constantly. We were narrowly able to side step an emotional melt-down in front of her entire team through clever distractions and some amazing luck but it was VERY close. BPD has also tried her best to pick a fight with my partner at the last three games (it wasn't an issue before then), which has also been hard on us as we work to underreact and rise above, at least publicly, for SD6's sake.

Is this just the new normal? Does this behavior level out overtime eventually?

I'm also wondering how your kids are handling BPD's melodramas, especially when they only see them for short periods of time? I'm noticing that BPD is seeming to get triggered by how much SD6 has changed between their visits -but there isn't a good way to address that (that I can see anyway) as BPD is unsafe for SD6 to be around unsupervised any more than she already is. I also see that SD6 is gaining a lot more independence with this increased amount of space between herself and BPD -whereas before SD6 never seemed to feel safe branching out on her own. I think this development regularly triggers BPD as well, but again, I have no idea how to better address this issue.

BPD is already honing in on every volunteer opportunity she can (the only loop hole we missed in our legal paperwork). She's now volunteering during SD6's school lunch period 3x a week (at least now with these new, clarified rules we know when she is volunteering -at first it was an unpleasant mystery). She has also recently applied to volunteer at SD6's after school program. We've already locked down the supports at the school and are working with the after school program to do the same (ensuring that SD6 is not allowed to leave with BPD, blocking BPD from making any changes to SD6's file, etc.), but it's clear that this issue is not going away any time soon.

Any advice / insights would be much appreciated.
Thanks!

[ForeverDad]

It's astounding how a determined pwBPD can find or create loopholes.  Will the school officials or counselor step up and describe the impact on SD6 in court if need be?

Mine was a two year divorce with then-stbEx having temp custody and majority time and during that time our son started kindergarten in her area's school.  I had the final stage of the divorce, a trial, coming up but the school declined to report any issues with mother.  However, his teacher volunteered though was never called.  Teacher told me his mother was not allowed in her classroom at all, yet I was invited in a couple times to sit in.  Great teacher.

Well, I held out and became Responsible/Primary parent for school purposes.  I asked for his last couple months of the school year to be completed there.  A few weeks later they told me she had made too many scenes and gave me one day (to say goodbye to his classmates) to register him with my school.

My point is that it is reasonable and proper to petition the court - if she ignores your instructions regarding contact - that her time with the child be limited to the scheduled hours in the order and possibly certain limited times dad approves.  Just because she was limited in official visitation does not mean she can negate it by volunteering at school and upsetting the child.  There was a reason dad's time was increased and hers was decreased.

However, I don't know if you have authority to say she can't volunteer at the school contacting others.  Dad has authority only with regard to his children, not others' children, and not general school volunteer policies.

It is not uncommon for us to return to court to fine tune the order.

[worriedStepmom]

It does not level out and get better.

The behavior you described is immensely damaging to a child.

We are dealing with the same problem.  H got primary custody of SD12 last summer.  mom immediately ramped up the emotional manipulation ("we'll never see each other again" was a frequent example).  mom also tried to involve the school - she called the switchboard and asked to speak to SD during the day, then proceeded to severely emotionally abuse that child over the phone, then told her to go back to class.  H was IRATE and had meetings with school officials.

We hoped that mom would adjust to the new normal.  It got worse; mom ended up in inpatient psych care last December, things got a little better for six weeks, then it slid downhill into awful, and we went back to court in July to severely curtail mom's access to SD.  We waited too long; we should have taken action this time last year (about the same time frame you are at).

What can the school do?  Can they stop her from seeing SD6 on days that aren't hers (our school district can do this)?  She can volunteer in other areas, just not with her kid?  She can volunteer fewer days, because she's having a negative impact on her child (they don't have to tell her that)? 

If the school can't take action, then I think this is worth asking your L if this rises to the level of asking for another modification.  We are working on language that would allow mom to attend extracurriculars (like soccer or school awards day) but forbid her from otherwise contacting SD outside of the times specified in the decree for visits or phone calls.  (We've also banned mom from texting SD ever again, from any phone number.  If this isn't in your decree, think about that for your next modification.  At some point your SD6 will be communicating with mom on her own, and that has the potential to be AWFUL.)

[mart555]

I'll sound like an ass but the first though that crossed my mind when I read that the mom says "I only get such and such amount of time with you now. You might never see me again" was "that bitch!".   This gets to me every time.  My ex was doing the same but my kids are older (they were 10 / 14) and it was confusing them a lot.  Even lies (that my kids clearly know are lies) manage to confuse them.  The only reason she isn't doing it now is because the kids are pretty much avoiding her and haven't seen her in a while (I've requested supervised visitation and mom doesn't want).  I know that she'll do it again as soon as she gets a chance. 

Now that this is out of the way: 6 seems quite young to understand all of this so I'd say make sure that you record all these events. This will come out as handy at some point.  Have her see a therapist, that way she'll gather the info as well and can be a 3rd party when it hits the fan..

Then get this book and give it a shot:  https://www.amazon.com/Power-Validation-Addiction-Out-Control/dp/1608820335/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 It should help with her quite a bit feel more "at ease" around you guys and help her navigate through all of this.

[livednlearned]

Does your L have anything to say about the loophole in the paper work?

What would happen if your L drafted a letter stating that the amount of time she spends with SD6 is outlined in the custody order and if she wants to modify it, then she must file something new by day/date. Volunteering at the school will be curtailed until then. Or something like that?

It must be scary for SD6 to feel like she has to take care of her mom's emotional state. That's the reverse of healthy parenting.

Can you remind us if SD6 sees a therapist?

Does the school counselor have thoughts on mom's visits? Does the school have a volunteer policy that might apply to this situation?

[Quicksylver]

Thank you for your responses -they really have given me something to think about. It's been such a whirlwind of a year. From the realization of her having BPD, to the discovery of all the abuse to deciding to go for full custody / majority parenting time and then winning our case -all of that took place in 9 months. I feel like my head is still spinning.Okay that said, here's where we are right now.

The school has already experienced quite a few scenes with BPD last year (BPD was in charge of 3-4 school morning drop offs last year when we had 50/50...unsurprising to everyone here -they typically were paired with either massive tantrums (a few resulting in both BPD and SD6 crying on the curb together...true story -what am I saying? You knew that already), late arrivals and crazy clothing outfits that only a kindergarten class wouldn't make fun of. SD6's school counselor and kindergarten teacher have worked with SD6's current 1st grade teachers to both communicate the situation to them and offer up their advice on how to best handle SD6 and BPD. I was really concerned at first but it's clear that BPD has more than displayed her true colors to multiple faculty at this point.

The school is bound by our legal paperwork. Since it doesn't specify that BPD can't volunteer at SD6's school or put any limitations on that in general -they can't forbid her from volunteering.That said, I've been very impressed with what they have managed to put in place.

SD6's kindergarten teacher has offered SD6 the opportunity to come to her classroom when she needs a break from her peers (after dealing with BPD). SD6 has taken her up on this a couple times. The school counselor actually pulled SD6 aside and talked her about when she would like to see BPD. To my extreme surprise (and complete delight) SD6 asked that BPD not volunteer in her classroom, but only during her lunch recess. The school counselor took that request to BPD (in a separate meeting, where SD6 was not involved or in the room) and used it to force BPD out of the classroom volunteer opportunities. BPD then, of course, increased her volunteer days from 2 days to 3 days a week to counter the school's power move -but still. Progress. The school has also locked BPD down to a set volunteer schedule and require that she sign in and out now.

Is it naive to just want to wait for BPD to burn herself out? She has never stuck to anything consistently -especially when it comes to sticking to a schedule. She does work full time as well; my partner and I are at a loss as to how she is pulling off working and volunteering this frequently. Recent example to give you perspective, BPD lost her sh*t when we limited her phone calls to only 3 a week. But even in the height of her rage, she only managed to call SD6 about once or twice a week (okay there was one time where she hit 3, but she never attempted a 4th call so the boundary held). Now that she is focusing so hard on volunteering -she has almost completely stopped calling, dropping her phone calls to SD6 down to only 1 call in the past 4 weeks.

A huge part of me (and my partner) is just waiting this volunteering thing out to see what happens. We've been very successful in extreme underreacting to her volunteering. For a while BPD would email us little notes about her volunteer shifts ("I noticed there are some big puddles under [SD6's] favorite monkey bars. I'd be happy to buy her rain boots to keep at the school.") and we have literally never responded. I honestly think this lack of response (this extreme decrease in interaction is relatively new...I believe we hit our all time low about a month ago) is what is spiking the aggression towards us at the games. As far as we can tell, BPD doesn't know how involved we've been with the school or that we are now forwarded her volunteer hours. Either way, we're definitely not giving her the dramatic reaction she's definitely craving from us. I'm kind of just waiting for something else (or someone else, fingers crossed) to pull her focus. But your comments make me realize...that's not realistic is it?

The after school program is also not a massive concern to my partner and I. SD6 rarely spends more than 30 minutes at the actual facility. It's really in place as a buffer to allow my partner time to drive over there from work. If and when BPD does become an active volunteer there (first of all, it's complete chaos in there -it would literally be my nightmare to work in there) -we will just insure that we are picking her up at our usual time. The volunteer shifts there are all about 2-4 hours long...I honestly think it's doubtful that BPD will want to stick it out to get 30 VERY distracted minutes with SD6.

We haven't contacted our lawyer about clarifying these boundaries yet. We did check in to make sure we weren't misinterpreting the "Standard Clauses" that we missed the first round -these clauses are what left these loop holes open. Honestly this new schedule is so new that it's hard to have big picture perspective on what's going on.

Okay, last thing: the damage to SD6. As SD6 becomes more and more used to this schedule, to less time with BPD overall, and to these brief, supervised visits (either through volunteering at school or at her sporting events), I am seeing her become more and more resilient. Recently the crying at school stopped (the major turnaround happened when we could prep her ahead of time and BPD was removed from her classroom) and she seems to be doing better with it. We are still seeing emotional set-backs when she comes back from her weekends with BPD, but we do have her starting with her new counselor next week (we had to start from scratch with someone BPD had never taken her to -old counselor completely missed the mark on many levels). Is there any benefit to keeping these short interactions in place? I mean SD6 is locked into this parent/daughter relationship for life -is there any way these interactions are helping her figure out how to navigate this relationship long term?

Thank you again for your help!

[Nope]

DH and and I got custody of the kids when SD was 11 and SS was 10. We also live a good distance from BPD and she refuses to visit due to work and other responsibilities. This has meant that we didn’t need the iron clad modification. But it wasn’t enough to keep her from guilting them constantly about how she never saw them.

One of the things we found helpful was making sure the kids understood that there were things they could control and things they couldn’t, as kids tend to take responsibility for the things they can’t control and not for what is out of their control. We asked them if they could do anything about when their mom would call/visit. Obviously they couldn’t. We asked them if she could do anything about those things. They did eventually realize that the one with the power, who was refusing to exercise it, was their mom. Even being a bit older like they were it took time for them to get it, but eventually with repetition they did. For your SD I would say that when her mom starts talking about never seeing her again she should think about the next time she is going to see her mom (like the next day at school). This is especially important since you said this behavior by BPD leaves kiddo feeling confused. Mom’s version of reality doesn’t make sense with her experience. What she needs to hopefully get over time is that a) her experience is real and valid and b) it isn’t within her fault or within her control to change her mom’s experience.

Mostly these poor kids just need to grow up faster. But yes, her mom will be her mom forever and it’s better that she learns how to navigate that relationship rather than trying to completely protect her from it. Too much time away from the BPD parent makes it possible for the kiddo to lie to themselves about how that parent actually makes them feel. Then you get a whole other set of problems on your hands.

[worriedStepmom]

It's a good sign that D6 felt comfortable enough to tell the school counselor when she did and didn't want to see her other mom!  Also good that the school is taking as much action as they think they can.

I am seeing her become more and more resilient. Recently the crying at school stopped (the major turnaround happened when we could prep her ahead of time and BPD was removed from her classroom) and she seems to be doing better with it.

My SD 12, like yours, *needs* to know when she is going to see mom.  Her mom thinks this is because SD misses her so much, but really it's because SD needs to prepare herself to be able to handle the emotional abuse.  This isn't resilience (being able to bounce back), this is putting up a giant wall and stuffing her own emotions down.

We are still seeing emotional set-backs when she comes back from her weekends with BPD, but we do have her starting with her new counselor next week (we had to start from scratch with someone BPD had never taken her to -old counselor completely missed the mark on many levels). Is there any benefit to keeping these short interactions in place? I mean SD6 is locked into this parent/daughter relationship for life -is there any way these interactions are helping her figure out how to navigate this relationship long term?

The problem isn't the amount of time or the volunteering itself (it's great for kids to know their parents value their school!).   The problem is the emotional manipulation and abuse.  If your partner's ex is doing the full "I miss you so much, you are my life, we may never get to see each other again after today" crap, that is emotional abuse.  The unspoken message is that the other parent is stealing the child away (in our case, this is also explicitly stated).  My SD feels torn in half - she has to choose which parent to believe, which makes her feel guilty.  She is confused because mom is so very certain of how SD feels - but SD doesn't feel that way at all.  She also feels responsible for managing her mom's emotions. 

In our situation, these kinds of messages were pretty much nonstop and also include intense criticism of H, me, SD's therapist, and pretty much any other adult that SD admires, as well as the occasional suicidal ideation and threats to abandon SD ("Daddy says I'm a bad parent so I'm going to go live in Arizona and he can have you").   It's going to result in an 85/15 schedule with no overnights for mom.  H thinks SD will cut her mom off by the time she's 20. 

I hope it isn't that bad for your SD.  My SD's T has helped her learn boundaries that will serve her well with both her mom and other people.   He also helps her grieve for the mom she wants but will never have.

[livednlearned]

Is it naive to just want to wait for BPD to burn herself out? She has never stuck to anything consistently -especially when it comes to sticking to a schedule.

It's hard to say, especially given her histrionic tendencies. She may feel she is rescuing SD6 in some way, in which case it's like asking if her maternal instincts will burn out. You and your partner know that she is driven to get her needs met, but that isn't necessarily how someone with a PD sees it. She believes her feelings. Her feelings are that SD6 needs her.

Having said that, my ex (not histrionic) eventually hit so many walls (mostly legal) that his behavior tapered off. As his visitation time was decreased, he attempted to work over our son through social media/texting but it wasn't very effective because n/BPDx was making accusations (mostly about me) that then S14 knew were outright false. S14 got fed up with his dad and they no longer have a relationship. It does seem that's more common with BPD dads than moms, but that's only anecdotal based on what I've read here on the boards over the years.

I honestly think this lack of response (this extreme decrease in interaction is relatively new...I believe we hit our all time low about a month ago) is what is spiking the aggression towards us at the games.

My guess: She feels she's losing her baby -- it's a retraumatizing form of abandonment. Even though it's ill how she is behaving toward SD6, mom is feeling feelings that are understandable. Her issue is that she cannot organize herself enough to see how damaging her actions are. Part of the disorder is to have trouble locating her self, so she isn't able to attribute the problems in her life to her own actions because that would require taking accountability and responsibility for her self. To do that, she needs to be able to identify her self in a way that we (non-BPD) likely take for granted. Meanwhile, she is losing access to her daughter bit by bit and she's panicking. She is likely aggressive to you because you're what stands between her and total fusion with her daughter.

we're definitely not giving her the dramatic reaction she's definitely craving from us.

I suspect she's hoping to see signs of emotions that she herself feels. She feels hysterical, so she wants to see some sign of that in others. That's a dysfunctional way to get validation. She's looking for her own feelings mirrored back to her through your responses. When she doesn't get it, she may dysregulate even more. It may feel manipulative because it seems conscious but there is also habit of mind happening. This is the only way she knows how to get her needs met.

As SD6 becomes more and more used to this schedule, to less time with BPD overall, and to these brief, supervised visits (either through volunteering at school or at her sporting events), I am seeing her become more and more resilient. Recently the crying at school stopped (the major turnaround happened when we could prep her ahead of time and BPD was removed from her classroom) and she seems to be doing better with it.

She may feel that people are protecting her. That's different than blocking access to mom. Ideally, SD6 will learn to have boundaries with mom, and learn to sort out truth from fiction. A lot of the resilience work with kids is based in validation, which is more than attentive listening. It's giving kids a full sense of their own emotional intelligence, so they learn to trust how they feel instead of believing what someone else says they should feel.

Some of the best work on raising emotionally resilient kids comes from Bill Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids, and the Lundstrom's You Don't Have to Make Everything All Better. There's a good book on parenting kids with validation.

It's not an intuitive type of parenting and the skills must be learned and practiced. I continue to learn every day --  my son is now 18 and I'm practicing all the time. The best way I can describe it is that I encouraged him to have confidence to trust his feelings. Not my feelings. His. I shared my feelings, but only when I made space for him to figure out his. And I both modeled and encouraged him to advocate for himself. We did that in a way that built his trust in me. I built his trust by seeking out trusted individuals, like you describe your work with school faculty.

Is there any benefit to keeping these short interactions in place? I mean SD6 is locked into this parent/daughter relationship for life -is there any way these interactions are helping her figure out how to navigate this relationship long term?

I don't know that it's the interactions so much as the validating environment you and the school and a counselor create for her. That team of angels will help counter the troubling moments her mom elicits because it will feel right. They will be working to help SD6 develop a self, whereas her mom may feel threatened by SD6s individuation.

Another book that is recommended here a lot is Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak. He gets into the tactics of parental alienation which is pretty common for many of our kids to experience. The book can be a little hair-raising because it details extreme cases as well as moderate and mild ones. I cherry picked the tactics I needed for my ex and they gave me an informed and skilled response to some of the nuttiness that came home with my son after visiting his dad.

I can't remember which book taught me this, but I also focused a lot on helping SD6 figure out the difference between lying, secrets, privacy, withholding, etc. I didn't even mention his dad, I just helped my son figure out what he believes, and showed him how nuanced these things can be. That helped neutralize some of the brainwashing that was going on.

Son to me: "Dad says you have boyfriends you'd rather be with than me."

Me to son: "I'm glad you felt safe telling me that. How did it make you feel when dad said that?"

Son to me: "I don't know ... I guess it made me sad. He says a lot of mean things about you and it makes me feel scared sometimes."

It's helping him recognize that his dad does things that make him uncomfortable, and he can then find a safe place to identify these feelings. Without judgment. Instead, he learns how other trusted adults can help him soothe and regulate his feelings, as opposed to his BPD parent, who kicks up a lot of emotional angst and self-doubt and fear and anxiety.