OM has fueled a sense of fear in my W suggesting that I am dangerous. - Part 2

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341438.0

Notwendy,

I think you have shone a light on something very real, I stopped listening to my wife many many years ago, maybe that’s not fair, I didn’t stop listening, I just numbed myself to her a lot. I’d listen to every 3rd word instead of listening to all of it. It struck me whilst I was peacefully cooking a Sunday roast this evening, I stopped taking cooking directions from my wife decades ago, I mean why listen to someone who can’t make a sandwich without stressing out? I know she hasn’t felt heard, and she’s right about that because for years I just wasn’t listening. I’ve become apt at being self assured about everything in my world. I guess I either listened to her critique, and killed my self esteem or I just numbed myself to her and boosted myself.

Changing my stance with the kids was easier. They resembled the behaviour of my wife, so I guess it felt natural to take control and just boss them around... only they were just being kids. I learnt about that pretty early on and that was easy to change and now I have an awesome relationship with the kids. My w still has plenty of scar tissue. I wasn’t unreasonable, I was just constant and steady Eddie... she wanted different things week by week, when we wanted the same thing things worked, when we didn’t, steady Eddie would come out and she wouldn’t get her way.

I was aggressive with Skip, he suggested that I was acting out of vengeance, I didn’t see that, and I don’t see that even now. I was triggered by it it sounded a bit like my wife when she says I’m an @raehole for not instantly saying quitting work was a great idea 2m after we’d just bought a new house. “You’re just doing this because <insert you’re an @rsehole reason>”.

I have my first financial mediation session tomorrow. Should be a barrel of laughs. W has been really twisted up all weekend.

I’m calling myself hateful to listen to, I know it must be endlessly frustrating for you all.

Enabler

[Enabler]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341438.0

Notwendy,

I think you have shone a light on something very real, I stopped listening to my wife many many years ago, maybe that’s not fair, I didn’t stop listening, I just numbed myself to her a lot. I’d listen to every 3rd word instead of listening to all of it. It struck me whilst I was peacefully cooking a Sunday roast this evening, I stopped taking cooking directions from my wife decades ago, I mean why listen to someone who can’t make a sandwich without stressing out? I know she hasn’t felt heard, and she’s right about that because for years I just wasn’t listening. I’ve become apt at being self assured about everything in my world. I guess I either listened to her critique, and killed my self esteem or I just numbed myself to her and boosted myself.

Changing my stance with the kids was easier. They resembled the behaviour of my wife, so I guess it felt natural to take control and just boss them around... only they were just being kids. I learnt about that pretty early on and that was easy to change and now I have an awesome relationship with the kids. My w still has plenty of scar tissue. I wasn’t unreasonable, I was just constant and steady Eddie... she wanted different things week by week, when we wanted the same thing things worked, when we didn’t, steady Eddie would come out and she wouldn’t get her way.

I was aggressive with Skip, he suggested that I was acting out of vengeance, I didn’t see that, and I don’t see that even now. I was triggered by it it sounded a bit like my wife when she says I’m an @raehole for not instantly saying quitting work was a great idea 2m after we’d just bought a new house. “You’re just doing this because <insert you’re an @rsehole reason>”.

I have my first financial mediation session tomorrow. Should be a barrel of laughs. W has been really twisted up all weekend.

I’m calling myself hateful to listen to, I know it must be endlessly frustrating for you all.

Enabler

[formflier]

  I typically have ‘a view’, which doesn’t tend to be very extreme. It takes quite a bit to move me from this view and those who attempt to change my view must be prepared to debate that view to change my mind. My mind can be changed and has on many many things, but I typically don’t change my mind easily.

To my knowledge, Enabler and I are the ESTJs around here.  I do believe there are others around with J at the end, but a different combination before the J.

I was completely nodding my head when I read his "process" for changing his view on "whatever it is"?

I am and I suspect Enabler is "completely open" to change or "being proven wrong" or "shown a better way", but...BUT...most ESTJs want to "precisely" know/identify the "point of contention" and "precisely" know/understand the new argument.

I do change my views and when I do I can tell you EXACTLY why I used to think one way and I can tell you EXACTLY why I changed as well as talk about the benefits and costs of both ways.

I also completely realize that many would look at that "process" and become exhausted just by reading it.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Yes, that’s me nailed on.

[Harri]

Hi  enabler

I always thought the main point of knowing your personality type was to figure out better ways to relate to relationship partners (for any type of relationship).  What I see people say here is  "I am a ___ type" and then not use the information in a way that helps them relate to others, even their SOs.

Do you try to take the ESTJ info and use it to help you respond in more productive ways that will promote closeness? 
 

I also completely realize that many would look at that "process" and become exhausted just by reading it.

It is exhausting and  frustrating for me when I run into it and I walk away.  I would imagine it would be extremely invalidating to a pwBPD or a HSP.  Is that okay in a relationship?  Where does self awareness come in in terms of how you are relating to your wife ?  How does this affect your ability to listen and be open to them? 

Don't mean to sidetrack but I do think this is relevant to a lot of the issues in the relationship here.

[babyducks]

I always thought the main point of knowing your personality type was to figure out better ways to relate to relationship partners (for any type of relationship). 

Yes it is.    Knowing your personality types, and other personality types is one way to facilitate the processing of information.    Ideally it helps to balance the flow of information.

I agree with Harri,    I find it frustrating, and tend to start replying 'asked and answered', and shutting down.   

'ducks

[Enabler]

I have read various things recently and in the past that my W wrote which say that I can be the best and the worst. She even said in May this year that she had noticed a change in me but wasn't sure where it had come from.

I don't tend to be 'less-ESTJ' or 'less-invalidating' with others since I've not really run into people who find it so frustrating. Maybe it's just my social circles, maybe it's the industry I'm in, maybe people just generally swerve me.

However, with my W, I am making a conscious effort to be less ESTJ or temper the bits of that which act like a taser to her, namely the invalidating bit. However, the downside of this is that it's not an overly genuine interaction. I didn't discover BPD till Apr17, I didn't do a personality test till earlier this year (i think) and my W stopped communicating with me on a genuine level in about Oct16 (probably earlier than that). Although my interactions have changed (as she acknowledges above) she can't be vulnerable to me, she doesn't believe that the ESTJ'ness (for want of a better term) of me won't come back to hurt her again.

I recognise when the ESTJ bit of me most damages her... when she feels she 'needs' something and I reprocess and calculate it to be her 'wanting' something. I invalidate her needing something and say "hey, that's not a need, that's a want, you're taking liberties here"... and yes, many of those needs might be "I need a pink unicorn now".

I didn't realise till we've had this conversation that my ESTJ'ness needs to be tempered with the general populous.

Enabler 

[formflier]

I recognise when the ESTJ bit of me most damages her... 

This is accurate, but only half of the issue at hand.

Would Enabler's "ESTJness" damage her if she lived in objective reality, particularly about the OM and whether God "ordains" or "blesses" that particular or those types of relationships.?

Enabler (and I and other ESTJs) likely objectively read the Bible and realize there is no place where God blesses/promotes these types of relationships, therefore we make the "judgement" about Enabler wife reality that we do.

So, it is accurate to say "Enabler's  ESTJness" is hurting his wife, yet it certainly is not the "whole truth" or "completely accurate".

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I always thought the main point of knowing your personality type was to figure out better ways to relate to relationship partners (for any type of relationship).  

 It is exhausting and  frustrating for me when I run into it and I walk away.  .

Aren't these two things incongruent?

Knowing what you know about ESTJs, how does walking away help your relationship with an ESTJ?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I think this discussion is in a way - distracting from the issue. Whatever someone’s personality type is - they can learn to listen better to other people ( even if they relate differently ) and foster connection. Listening and connecting does not mean always agreeing.

I understand wanting facts but not all conversations revolve around detailed facts. Needs can be emotional but expressed in clouded ways, especially with someone with BPD.


It may help to clarify the goal here. Asserting one’s position with a spouse or stopping to listen - really listen to them. Maybe the relationship with OM is wrong in God’s rules but if she feels heard with him and not you, this may be one thing that draws her to him . But it’s possible to learn to do this with her too.

[formflier]

It may help to clarify the goal here. Asserting one’s position with a spouse or stopping to listen - really listen to them. 

Maybe it's not a dichotomous choice.  Perhaps both could be accomplished.

My point has little to do with agree/disagree, it's more about understanding another person's perspective. 

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Asserting one’s position with a spouse or stopping to listen - really listen to them. Maybe the relationship with OM is wrong in God’s rules but if she feels heard with him and not you, this may be one thing that draws her to him . But it’s possible to learn to do this with her too.

Yes Notwendy, I believe it can, and I believe I have shown my W this, but she fears that I will just go back to not listening to her again. I didn't listen to her for multiple reasons, one of the reasons was that I could see no rational reason why what she was saying would make any sense (on multiple topics I 'hurt' her with). It was only when I put what she said in a BPD enigma machine I could see what her point might be. As FF points out, I couldn't see how her relationship with OM made any biblical sense, which she was justifying it with God. However if I were to look through a BPD lens I see many different things, things other than the spiritual reasons she used for the relationship. OM does listen, although I suspect he only listens as much as I used to. At the moment they are both dancing together and have commonality, what happens when she doesn't agree with him, will he listen so much then or will he be the same as me... I think he will. His own W is testament to that.

[Enabler]

Enabler (and I and other ESTJs) likely objectively read the Bible and realize there is no place where God blesses/promotes these types of relationships, therefore we make the "judgement" about Enabler wife reality that we do.

So, it is accurate to say "Enabler's  ESTJness" is hurting his wife, yet it certainly is not the "whole truth" or "completely accurate".

She see's this as emotional ABUSE

[Skip]

It may help to clarify the goal here. Asserting one’s position with a spouse or stopping to listen - really listen to them. Maybe the relationship with OM is wrong in God’s rules but if she feels heard with him and not you, this may be one thing that draws her to him . But it’s possible to learn to do this with her too.

As Notwendy encourages us all, let's stay on target...

"OM has fueled a sense of fear in my W suggesting that I am dangerous."

Isn't the main point of this discussion that your (Enabler's) actions are fueling the perception that you are difficult, and conflict oriented?

Wife thinks it (OK, attribute that to hypersensitivity). Her affair partner thinks it (OK, attribute that to self serving bias). Real life friends think it  (OK, attribute that to successful smearing). Enabler's support team (friends) are questioning it. (OK, blame that on the Dingos   )

At some point, perception become reality.

How hard will it be to convince the inlaws? How hard will it be to convince a GAL?  Or to convince the school guidance counselor? Or convince the Pastors? Teachers. These folks make their determinations by talking to each other.

Ultimately, when the respected adults in the children's circle feel this, how long will it be before they children question the reality they know? Kid's don't challenge respected adults - they believe them.

Stepping away from your case and looking at BPD divorce in general...

This pattern has played out here at  bpdfamily many times. The most experienced members have seen it evolve over the course of years in a deteriorating marriage/family and play out to the end and beyond. Some of these cases started 12-15 years ago. Some of these members are still in touch.

I remember watching videos of one of our members daughters on Maury Povich telling the audience how she was emotionally abused as a child and worried for her little sister. I remember the FaceBook campaign supported by a child advocacy group in California (they lived on the East Coast) that raised a huge war-fund to strip dad of access to the youngest child.

I don't think dad abused or molested his daughters - but the world united around mom and dad actions fueled it every step of the way.

We had another dad who ended up on Good Morning America with Matt Lauer and a Oprah-famous psychologist pronouncing that "he may be well within his rights, but he is a horrible irresponsible father". That played internationally and is ensconced in the Internet archive and will come up every time an Internet search is run on Dad or one of his children. The kids will live with this debacle for life unless they change their names (they were all boys).

Extreme cases? Yes and no. This stuff is on TV every day.  And we have many less extreme cases, but the damage is similar.

The reason why my wife is seeking a D is because I have clearly shown that I am not prepared to accept/approve/tolerate her '<fill in the gap> relationship' with OM.

If I accept the relationship with OM then I don't get D.

Is this a self sabotaging position?  If you went to the school guidance counselor and read her this, wouldn't she say, "Hey enabler, if you want a divorce, pursue one, no one can stop it"

Yes Notwendy, I believe it can, and I believe I have shown my W this, but she fears that I will just go back to not listening to her again. I didn't listen to her for multiple reasons, one of the reasons was that I could see no rational reason why what she was saying would make any sense (on multiple topics I 'hurt' her with)...

Isn't this really the point that FaithHopeLove was relating to you when she said that the covenant is already hopelessly broken.

At the root of your visions/reality seems to be that you and your wife are not really over yet - that another recycle may still be looming. You have said many time that her actions are ambiguous. Are they ambiguous (uncertain about leaving you)? Or are they tentative (uncertain about how to leave you and best survive)?

[Rev]

So, me not being okay with the 3 legged stool and me persisting in telling one of the legs to 'do one' WILL result in my own D. The alternative being that I find "common ground" allow this intruder to stick around in my 'marriage' and live like this until such time one of the legs snaps.

Does that sound plausible?

Sounds totally plausible... because in a nutshell this is how it ended up with me. My W and her newly found bio-brother are a thing now. There were many discussions behind closed doors and I was being kept around for window dressing.  Until a leg snapped which was all about our finances - It was very important for me and the politics of the organization whom she and I both serve for me to have it be her that booted me out - I stand on pretty solid ground now and the smear campaign such that it was has not made a dent in my reputation.  It is she who is suffering by all accounts.

But I will say that I am on shaky ground emotionally for the price I paid to sit in that. And in my own threads, the sense that I am getting is that it will take some time for me to get past what I witnessed in my own M.

BPD as she is, with narcissistic tendencies (undiagnosed - but when it walks like a duck) I am sure she was able to rationalize that she loved both of us.  Several feeble attempts were made to charm me once the M was over, feeble as those attempts were.

I am going to tell you that my spider sense is saying DO EVERYTHING to protect yourself emotionally. There's a price to be paid to stick around.

Rev

[Enabler]

At the root of your visions/reality seems to be that you and your wife are not really over yet - that another recycle may still be looming. You have said many time that her actions are ambiguous. Are they ambiguous (uncertain about leaving you)? Or are they tentative (uncertain about how to leave you and best survive)?

I don't know if I would use that level of certainty, but the point is that I don't know. I'm 80/20 in favour of she's done done done and tomorrow (or the next day) she won't change her mind.  

[Cat Familiar]

I also have the J (INTJ) and if I think someone is trying to change my opinion, I dig my heels in. Sometimes this is good, sometimes it isn’t. But as I’ve gained a bit of emotional intelligence, I’ve learned to listen and to let people know that I’m taking in what they are saying and giving it consideration.

I’m strong enough to be able to both hold my own views and to consider theirs, and guess what? Sometimes I even change my opinion based upon new evidence. My husband is always surprised when this happens. 

Enabler, I think that those of us who’ve responded to you are trying to reflect back information you appear to be overlooking. Whatever decisions and choices you make, or don’t make, in the future, it’s good to have as much information as possible.

Currently you are STUCK. You’ve been stuck for a long time. If you look at the structure of your posts (minus the content), they follow the same pattern.

As Notwendy has pointed out, the choices you have made thus far have generated the current results you experience. Though relationships are a dance, and you are only responsible for your part, but if you change your part, you change the dance.

Often it’s much easier for outsiders to see the repetitive patterns we engage in and to offer possible alternatives. Whether or not you choose to try something new, or even consider it, perhaps you might take into account that people who’ve replied to you have spent time to write you and they wouldn’t do that if they didn’t care about you and are concerned about your wellbeing.

With this in mind, perhaps you can take the time to reflect on what they have said, and let them know you are doing so. This is a life skill that will yield great benefits in deepening relationships.

[Enabler]

I don’t know what more to say other than sorry. I read all your posts and they are all truly truly appreciated. I feel like I know most of you personally even though I have never met you. Many of you have emotionally undressed on the boards, shared some of your deepest feelings in an attempt to guide me on my journey.

I’m genuinely sorry if I’ve given you the impression that you have wasted you time and fingertips helping me. Maybe I’m stubborn, maybe I’m blinded by my own fixed view on the world. Maybe I see little differences and pounce on them saying “that’s not me”, maybe I’m rubbish at articulating my position.

I’ve just had a very weird experience at financial mediation, one where it appeared like it was a surprise to my W that we were there to come up with a financial agreement. The three legged stool is here to stay, The cage door is open, she won’t jump!

[Cat Familiar]

You have nothing to apologize for, Enabler. You are in a tremendously difficult position that would be grueling for anyone.  You are doing the lion's share of supporting your daughters and keeping the household together, while your wife is having a romp with a man you disrespect.

However, you still harbor hope for your wife to see the light and return to your marriage.

In the event that happens, or even should she become disenchanted with the OM, I think it would be in your best interests to present yourself in the best light possible.

Nothing wrong with having a "fixed view on the world" but if rigidity is preventing you from success, you might be better served trying something new. As Notwendy mentioned, you can always go back to your old standbys if a new approach doesn't work.

By "success" in that last paragraph, I'm referring to winning your wife's heart. The OM has succeeded, while you have not. Certainly there's a lot of water under the bridge and it will be difficult for both of you to open your hearts to each other and be willing to start afresh.

But should you get the opportunity, why not have as many skillful approaches to relating to her as possible?

You could say, "Oh, that's not me. I couldn't do that without feeling phony."

Doesn't every new skill feel artificial at first and take time to learn and practice until you master it?

I'm encouraging you to take this opportunity to work on and refine Enabler 2.0. That is, if you really want her back.

[Enabler]

I do want that... I'm up for Enabler v3.0