Financial mediation Part 2

[Enabler]

This thread was split from this discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341562.new#new

Skip, are you able to clarify what you meant about the affair, I want to understand what you said there and think it was important. Thanks

[Skip]

Skip, are you able to clarify what you meant about the affair, I want to understand what you said there and think it was important. Thanks

We discussed this earlier. They obviously talked and know that it's financially advantageous to claim that they are not intending to cohabitat. This proclamation serves your wife (she get more support $$). It serves OM in dealing with his wife (she doesn't want him to cohabitat, yet.  It serves OM, he is not on the hook to support your wife in anyway. This also serves their desire to maintain an image of respectability. Win. win for both. When things settle, they can push the boundaries.

[Skip]

Skip, are you able to clarify what you meant about the affair, I want to understand what you said there and think it was important. Thanks

We discussed this earlier. They obviously talked and know that it's financially advantageous to claim that they are not intending to cohabitat. This proclamation serves your wife (she get more support $$). It serves OM in dealing with his wife (she doesn't want him to cohabitat, yet.  It serves OM, he is not on the hook to support your wife in anyway. This also serves their desire to maintain an image of respectability. Win. win for both. When things settle, they can decide what they want to do.

No lawyers this time and no plans to have lawyers next time. I have numbers in mind which if we get around I’d agree to.

Be careful, Enabler. She has agreed to collaborative and that is a huge advantage for both of you. If she is timid and outmatched, she may hire a junk yard dog to even the fight. If you could find two fair minded collaborative attorneys, you both might be better served.

[Enabler]

I get you on both points now.

I've thought about the lawyer thing and my W's ability to take the heat. I sensed this in the meeting when she seemed to be overwhelmed by the mediators explanation. I did rescue her a little by softly asking if she was okay, I listened and allowed her to be heard. She said she felt very overwhelmed and quite intimidated by the situation. I do believe this could move towards a lawyer/lawyer situation which would definitely not be in my favour as her lawyer would inevitably work for the best deal for her rather than the most amicable. At the moment her narrative is, I want to be reasonable.

I also thought about the whole no-cohabitation thing. Much of it doesn't add up for me and I will act as if OM is any other man. She's a 40yr old very attractive blond, she will meet someone else I have no doubts, even if it is not OM. It matters, but it doesn't matter in many senses. I will opt for the lowest capital share possible with a manageable spousal maintenance, that way if she does remarry or cohabitate I'll lose the spousal payment and be left with more capital.

Neither her or OM are stupid, I'm sure the realise that they will not be pulling the wool over anyone's eyes. I can imagine this being more like the scenario.

- OM and W realise that they have spent so much time telling everyone that I am mad and they aren't a thing... when they are a thing... because I've told everyone they are a thing.
- W says, "I love you but we can never be together till we're in heaven because bad Enabler has poisoned our chances of being together on earth"
- OM Says "I love you too babes, Enabler is an evil evil man trying to destroy our sanctified transcendent love, however, I agree with you and I will wait for you in heaven... we shall stay as special friends right? to continue our good Christian work, we don't have a choice in that... Enabler is evil evil evil devil devil devil" ... <OM thinks, I will play the long game here and wait till heat comes off till I can weasel my way in again>

Not sure OM cares too much what people think, W does, she has to manage a mask. Also, I'm pretty sure she has concerns what OM and her actually together would be like, affairs are different from cohabitation.

Enabler 

[formflier]

I totally understand you don't want to fully open up your negotiating strategy here.  That's sound.

That being said, it worries me that you went to this thing without a "deal" you would take or actually several that are acceptable.

Why does this matter?

Who knows when she is ready to move.

If she is in a signing mode (wants it to be over) then you should have a deal to put forward.  "Let's just sign this and move forward."  Most likely it would be something that's scary or objectionable to her.

So when she balks you can easily give on an issue or two or perhaps exchange a few things. 

For this to work you have to do the work ahead of time to create a few deals and understand all the moving parts and their value to you.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I think 60/40 is agreeable, £1k a month child support £5k from bonus. £500 a month spousal

We can both buy comfortable 4 bed houses, I can afford a decent mortgage and service the repayments preserving the income to do that. D6 is in school for another 11.5 years but as kids move to university payments taper down with online Child Support calculation. Spousal dies after 6m of cohabitation or immediately with marriage.

The very fact my body language said "I've done some work, I can see myself in a different house and I'm TOTALLY at ease with that" spoke volumes, and I was zen chilled... not cold... just relaxed.

Enabler

[Enabler]

University support is a negotiation I can have directly with the kids

[Skip]

I told you, many posts ago, how one US auto insurer sends claims agents to the scene of an accident to write a check on the spot. This saves them a lot, because early in a financial fight people want to be fair.

The longer this drags on, the harder it will be to settle.

Right now, you are likely be working against yourself by not floating a reasonable offer to her (her attorney). If her attorney validates it as reasonable, then a settlement likely makes.

You guys are so caught up in an emotional drama - it eclipses doing things in the best interests of the children and in the best interest of your own personal future.

Enabler, I know quite a few people in loving 20 year marriages that are on there second - the first 20 year marriage failed.

You have a whole other life ahead of you that can have the partnership ad the covenant you want.

I also thought about the whole no-cohabitation thing. Much of it doesn't add up for me and I will act as if OM is any other man. She's a 40yr old very attractive blond, she will meet someone else I have no doubts, even if it is not OM. It matters, but it doesn't matter in many senses.

Right. I doesn't matter. Your marriage is toast. It been toast for a long time.  You are both at an age where you can have a bright future - go forward and prosper.

Neither her or OM are stupid, I'm sure the realise that they will not be pulling the wool over anyone's eyes.

... and they are not going to accept a foolish deal.

Keep in mind that having him positive toward you (since he is her confidant) is far better than him feeling he needs to "get even".

I can imagine this being more like the scenario.

- OM and W realise that they have spent so much time telling everyone that I am mad and they aren't a thing... when they are a thing... because I've told everyone they are a thing.
- W says, "I love you but we can never be together till we're in heaven because bad Enabler has poisoned our chances of being together on earth"
- OM Says "I love you too babes, Enabler is an evil evil man trying to destroy our sanctified transcendent love, however, I agree with you and I will wait for you in heaven... we shall stay as special friends right? to continue our good Christian work, we don't have a choice in that... Enabler is evil evil evil devil devil devil" ... <OM thinks, I will play the long game here and wait till heat comes off till I can weasel my way in again>

Not sure OM cares too much what people think, W does, she has to manage a mask. Also, I'm pretty sure she has concerns what OM and her actually together would be like, affairs are different from cohabitation.

Try to let this go. Lock into the reality and deal with that - not the drama.

Remember Linehan's "radical acceptance"? It's about accepting reality, and letting go of the false narrative you (we all at times) have surrounded yourself with.

1. Marriage is toast.
2. 3rd or 4th sexual affair. 4 years. Possible pregnancy.
3. She has grieved and fully disconnected and moved on to another man for emotional support.
4. Hesitation/trepidation is fear of unknown
5. First "post marriage" relationships rarely make - he's married and may want to sow his oats when he finally gets free.
6. The system will make sure she gets a conventional deal. Don't try for a "deal of the century"
7. The longer the divorce drags out, the more emotional damage, the worse the settlement, the tougher the coparenting.

I'm with formflier - find out from your attorney what the courts formula would be, package it up, put it on the table.

[Skip]

I think 60/40 is agreeable, £1k a month child support £5k from bonus. £500 a month spousal

We can both buy comfortable 4 bed houses, I can afford a decent mortgage and service the repayments preserving the income to do that. D6 is in school for another 11.5 years but as kids move to university payments taper down with online Child Support calculation. Spousal dies after 6m of cohabitation or immediately with marriage.

Is this near the standard?
https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/Divorce-UK- bpdfamily.pdf

Example:

Children 1 2 3

Base weekly payment £5 + £5 + £5 +

Plus % of net pay 15% 20% 25%

[Enabler]

That’s using the child support agencies online calculator.

[Skip]

After splitting the current assets, are you in their recommended zone for going forward?

[formflier]

I think 60/40 is agreeable

Would you feel willing to go 60/40 if you get "veto" power over medical, school, church decisions?

Or make sure they are "joint".

I obviously would want you to ask for 50/50, but I get it your work schedule makes that hard.

Best,

FF

[Skip]

Would you feel willing to go 60/40 if you get "veto" power over medical, school, church decisions?

Visitation (60/40) is just that, a visitation schedule.

Custody (decision making) either go to one of the parents or they can agree to share all decisions.

In a collaborative divorce, its not likely custody will go to one partner. That only happens after a court battle and it is show that one parent is not suited to have any responsibility - or when one parent walks away clean.

[formflier]

Gotcha.

Enabler, ask your lawyer if joint custody effectively means you have a veto power and over what.

For instance, what if you wife decides to put them in some sort of religious situation you do not agree with? 

It's easy when two parties say yes or two parties say no, but what exactly happens when one says yes and one says no (to anything really) in joint custody in the UK

Best,

FF

[Skip]

Typically you enforce your custody rights (or violation there-of) via the court.

If Enablers wife enrolled their eldest in "Introduction to Judaism" or "Judaism 101 classes" against his will, he could petition the court to review her decision. Typically the parents settle out of court.

[formflier]

That's what I figured, but I would want Enabler to get that from a UK lawyer.

If specific language could be added that makes his rights stronger, he obviously needs to know about this prior to drafting agreements.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

60/40 is t he split of capital. There is a decent amount of capital, enough to buy her a decent house with small mortgage and myself similar with large mortgage but would need income and bonus to pay off the mortgage... we talked about catch up time ie at what point in the future should I be able to save to get me to the same level of capital as her... and that’s 11.5 yrs when youngest leaves high school.

Child order is separate. That would deal with decision making power and access. W is keen to promote access and I mentioned to her last night that work have relaxed dealing from home rules which should enable me greater access opportunities.

[Enabler]

Decision making powers are notoriously hard to enforce other than by the court. I would be using the child order to stipulate a backstop with regards to access. My bare minimum. Other items such as grandmother having access and decision making powers with regards to non-standard medical procedures. I don’t know if it’s possible to enforce she doesn’t move them out of the area but that would be optimal. I believe that the mediator said before that clauses that would curtail her freedom of movement are typically not allowed.

[formflier]

Enabler,

It appears to me you are going down the divorce path with your wife...kinda.

This means (I think) that you have rejected the advice of making her get the divorce "all on her own".

So, if you are not going to make her do it on her own, I don't see much use or "values statement" being made by kinda helping her and kinda not (taking a middle of the road position)

If you are going to follow her down the path to divorce, I think you are unwise to let her lead this process.

If you are going to go along with this, then you absolutely need to close this deal asap (The insurance claim at the scene analogy)  

This assumes you are getting a deal you can live with (or better).

What does leadership look like?  Well...definitely not pushy (she may start resisting).

You know your wife best.  Assume she actually wants to get to the end of this process, what does "leading" her through this look like?

I would refuse to discuss any of this with your children until you have a signed agreement that she can't go back on.

I'm wondering if timeline can be put in this agreement.  

Agreement signed.  

1 week later children told
2 weeks later xyz
etc etc

Best,

FF

[formflier]

  I believe that the mediator said before that clauses that would curtail her freedom of movement are typically not allowed.

But what about your freedom of access?

She and OM decide to go on a "mission trip" (perhaps permanently).  Where does that leave you?

I'm not a fan of the "bare minimum" thing and assuming she will be reasonable later to adjust things.  How does that usually work out in stories on bpdfamily?

Best,

FF

[worriedStepmom]

Decision making powers are notoriously hard to enforce other than by the court. I would be using the child order to stipulate a backstop with regards to access. My bare minimum. Other items such as grandmother having access and decision making powers with regards to non-standard medical procedures. I don’t know if it’s possible to enforce she doesn’t move them out of the area but that would be optimal. I believe that the mediator said before that clauses that would curtail her freedom of movement are typically not allowed.

In my experience, if you need to be able to lean on your decision-making powers, it is serious enough that you'll end up in court anyway.  So it's good to have them, if possible, to make your next court trip less stressful.  (My H has decision-making powers for SD12's medical and psychological care.   I'm so glad we had them - his uBPDex threw a fit when SD started seeing a therapist and tried to disrupt her care.)

It's disappointing there isn't anything about moving out of the area.  In my US state, it is standard language that the custodial parent cannot move the children more than ~100 miles away without court permission.  The parent can move wherever they want, but the kids can't be taken away from their other parent.

I second the other advice - make an offer and get it over with.   

[mart555]

I am surprised that you were able to go in mediation...  while it seemed pointless, it wasn't a disaster.  I wonder if I'm the only one that did not luck out with that...  maybe because mine is also covert NPD?  All I got was:
- I'll take you to court and ruin you
- Screw mediation! You'll convince the mediator to be on your side!
- I don't care what you say, I need it all.  You have to make compromises.
- You married me and made a promise to take care of me for the rest of my life!  
- I am sick so I need this until I die! I will run out of money otherwise.

And trying to discuss the draft separation agreement over the phone resulted in her calling me all sorts of names, death threats the week after and an assault.

So I did not bother with mediation and am going straight to court.  My lawyer hopes that court will calm her a little...  and allow her to open up and be reasonable.  All I'm trying to do is be fair and not pay for the rest of my life.

[sweetheart]

I am surprised that you were able to go in mediation...  while it seemed pointless, it wasn't a disaster.  I wonder if I'm the only one that did not luck out with that...  maybe because mine is also covert NPD?  All I got was:
- I'll take you to court and ruin you
- Screw mediation! You'll convince the mediator to be on your side!
- I don't care what you say, I need it all.  You have to make compromises.
- You married me and made a promise to take care of me for the rest of my life!  
- I am sick so I need this until I die! I will run out of money otherwise.

And trying to discuss the draft separation agreement over the phone resulted in her calling me all sorts of names, death threats the week after and an assault.

So I did not bother with mediation and am going straight to court.  My lawyer hopes that court will calm her a little...  and allow her to open up and be reasonable.  All I'm trying to do is be fair and not pay for the rest of my life.

mart555
Are you in the UK?
Here in the U.K. mediation is usually mandatory in divorce proceedings. The law was changed in 2014 to try and make divorce less easy. There are exemptions, DV, serious mental illness.
To get a divorce the court usually likes a MIAM certificate  (Mediation Information and Assessment Meeting) to be produced, or things can take longer; the case can be adjourned.
Mediation does not have to end in agreement, it is to see if it is possible for an agreement to be reached by both parties.
You can enter mediation here without legal representation, it isn’t necessary or a requirement, but if you have assets etc, the advice is to get legal representation, and do mediation through a solicitor.

[mart555]

mart555
Are you in the UK?
Here in the U.K. mediation is usually mandatory in divorce proceedings. The law was changed in 2014 to try and make divorce less easy.

No. Located in Canada. 

I guess in your case mediation is just a step.. try it and move on..

[Enabler]

I would t say it was a step, with inevitable court afterwards, this was my wife’s choice, it could have legs and certainly financially less costly. Everyone needs to tread very carefully though to keep the process ticking over at a pace she can handle where she feels heard.

[ForeverDad]

You should be very cautious about promising or counting on too much in the future based on your current job and income.  What if you lose your job, you come down with a serious illness or your employer goes bankrupt and you can't find equitable income elsewhere? 

[GaGrl]

You should be very cautious about promising or counting on too much in the future based on your current job and income.  What if you lose your job, you come down with a serious illness or your employer goes bankrupt and you can't find equitable income elsewhere? 

I agree. For example, you mentioned including your bonus in your financials, per a percentage to her (is that correcy?). If bonus is discretionary or based on company performance, I'd leave that out of support calcs. Or if the job changes or ends, then the bonus ends.

[Enabler]

I made that point on Monday, this year for example there has been a bit of an accounting whoopsie which has resulted in a material drawdown in the bonus pool. I made it clear that I am in a contracting sector (finance) with very niche skillset which is pretty much useless in the real world. I'd be lucky to achieve half my salary out of the industry. Automation is rife in the industry and those who lose their jobs typically don't return. There needs to be some connectivity between my own financial prosperity and hers. The financial order can be renegotiated down but rarely up so she is always typically short a call and put to me.

She hasn't grasped this during the last 15 years of our marriage and resented my financial prudence so I doubt she will grasp it now... although the penny did seem to drop in a few conversations recently so there is hope. My belief is that she doesn't trust me, so she believes there's always malicious motivations for my actions e.g. saving money. So, she seeks "opinions" from others who really have no idea what our financial position is and then takes that as fact rather than what I've said. It's perplexing that she'd rather take comfort in an ill informed opinion rather than an informed one!

Enabler

[Skip]

So, she seeks "opinions" from others who really have no idea what our financial position is and then takes that as fact rather than what I've said. It's perplexing that she'd rather take comfort in an ill informed opinion rather than an informed one!

This is the name of the game in divorce - this is why its important to settle fast - before she connects wit more bad advice.

She doesn't trust you and never will again. That's just how it is.

[kells76]

1. Marriage is toast.
2. 3rd or 4th sexual affair. 4 years. Possible pregnancy.
3. She has grieved and fully disconnected and moved on to another man for emotional support.
4. Hesitation/trepidation is fear of unknown
5. First "post marriage" relationships rarely make - he's married and may want to sow his oats when he finally gets free.
6. The system will make sure she gets a conventional deal. Don't try for a "deal of the century"
7. The longer the divorce drags out, the more emotional damage, the worse the settlement, the tougher the coparenting.

this is why its important to settle fast - before she connects wit more bad advice.

From what I understand of how DH & his xW's D went:

She'd had an ongoing "crush" on his best friend (who, DH realizes now, is an NPD-type person) that she admitted once to DH.

While their marriage was on the rocks, they both sought out this friend (who'd gone through his own D) to "help them work things out". As the "helping friend" thing proceeded, xW leaned more and more on him, leaving DH out of the loop.

Point 1: the marriage was toast. There had been lots of conflict in the ~10 years up to "helpful best friend" getting involved

Point 2: xW, in the "wronged woman/innocent victim" role, meshed perfectly with "best friend" who was reenacting his own childhood trauma of Dad leaving Mom and BF being "man of the house" who rescued single mom. Here's BF, with DH and xW on the rocks, so who does he support? There's no "explaining" or "being reasonable" or "stay away from my kids" that will have any impact. BF (well, former best friend now) was and is his own person with his own unacknowledged trauma that situates him in his own fantasy world that is IMPERMEABLE to health, reason, logic, and empathy. He has not changed in the years I've been around him. He has literally said that he calls DH's kids HIS kids because "it's just my emotional reality". BF gets a huge amount of rescuer validation by being "emotionally in touch" and "emotionally available" to xW. It's dysfunctional and it's what is really going on. Impervious to reality.

Point 7: Even though the initial parenting plan was one line reading "DH can be with the kids whenever he's not at work" -- which was great when Mom wanted to hang out with BF, leaving DH to put the kids to bed every night while she was out -- this changed once BF started to "emotionally support" her even more: "you're a great mom, we're a family, I'd never leave, I can't believe DH was the one who left, he's hurting the kids". All of a sudden, ALL that time that DH "could be with the kids" went away, as he was replaced as "dad" by BF. No amount of verbal promises, pointing to the PP, any of that, could change xW's "interpretation" of the plan.

If DH could have had her sign an explicit agreement when she was in the headspace of "Fine, you can stay in the house and have the kids, I just need to start a new life with BF" -- things would have been so much different. Once BF (and unscrupulous "friends") "convinced" her that she was wronged, she was a noble single mom, she was the one who got left behind... things turned on a dime. No more kids for DH if she could help it. This happens FAST.

I can't encourage you enough to have a deal that locks in your time with your kids NOW -- while the iron is hot of your W "feeling like she needs to be free". The perceptions and goals of pwBPD can change dramatically and instantly, especially the more that they get encouragement to play a role of "sad single mom sacrificing for her kids despite emotionally unavailable xH".

People often forget that you can lock in a parenting time schedule that also has a clause that says something like "modifications accepted with email approval from both parents". They get caught up in getting the "perfect" PP on paper (which isn't a bad goal), as if that sets in stone the specific hours the kids are with each parent FOREVER. You're not a "bad dad" if you get more PP time on paper. You can always, down the road, if needed because of a change in jobs/whatever, agree by email on changes. Just don't limit yourself based on the NOW -- as you've discussed with $ arrangements (i.e. not including bonus $ in income).

Enabler, things can move really quickly "ahead" of you. The iron is really hot for striking now. I think you can do it in an empathetic way that protects your kids' interests as #1.

Recall your discussion with Cat Familiar about becoming Enabler 2.0 (or was it 3.0)? Get your kids protected by offering an insta-plan to your W to sign. Then, down the road, if you want a "total redo" with her -- go for it, try something new, re-woo her. You've talked at times about not wanting the divorce. I wonder if, in your case, you may need to frame it as "you're worth starting over for". Then, she's really "out of the cage" and her actions will show what she wants. You're free to try again with her as Enabler 2.0 with a different skill set. If she wants to be married to you, she can try again too.

Protect your kids with an agreement first... then the door is open for both of you to try again with each other. Hope this is some food for thought. I just really want to encourage you to try a perpendicular way of thinking about a divorce. Who knows, maybe a full reset is what you both need to make a marriage work. Let me know if you have any questions about DH's situation -- it sounds, in ways, similar to yours.