14 year old daughter not wanting to worship with family [Christian Discussion]

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I made ethical complaints against pastors at past church that we attended but were not members, rather than dealing with those complaints, church made it clear I'm not allowed back on property, although they are clear my family is welcome.  (note:  all my allegations are provable objectively with recordings and documentation, church refused to listen, even though they teach recording conversations is wise)

We have been church shopping for a new church home and basically are down to two places.  

I've let them know that on case by case basis I'm ok with them going to parties and youth activities at old church for purposes or maintaining social connections.  I've also let them know that I'm not ok with them being in a position of "being taught" by pastors that are unethical (by their own standards, not mine).  

Last Sunday 14 year old got up early and left for the old church leaving us a note saying that she is almost and adult and feels God is leading her to make her own decisions about a church home.

After conversation with my P I had some conversations this past week with my daughter to better understand her and for her to better understand my concerns and I believed she was back onboard.

So, she had friends over and they stayed the night and when rest of family got up from breakfast to head out to church, they stayed staring at their phones and trying to ignore us.

I came back in house and asked what she was doing and she said she wanted to go to the other church.  I asked what about our conversations in the prior week gave her the idea that was ok (to her credit) she said nothing, but she was going to that church.

She spent 10 minutes avoiding answering direct questions, repeating that she wants to go and doesn't understand why she can't (she could verbalize this in our prior conversations)

She then started crying and stormed out of the house with her friends and they attended the other church.

When she got back and I was in living room I spoke to her and she ignored me.

She came back down and was intending to leave again with her friends she did respond to me saying "she had to be somewhere".

I said we needed to talk about it first, because I was unaware of her obligations so she came in and said she had to go to a movie with Mommy because of her friends schedule.

I clarified to her that for the rest of this week her priorities were get studying done for finals and making time for conversations with me.  That we obviously weren't communicating well and that the only way to understand each other was through communication.

I asked if she wanted to be understood and she reluctantly said yes.  I asked her if she wanted to understand how I thought through what was wise for her and the rest of the family and she reluctantly said yes.

I asked if she wanted to share her understanding of scripture on this matter with me and vice versa, again, reluctant yes.

Off she went to movie with Mom and I'm doing some deep thinking and posting here.

One theme she keeps repeating is even if someone hurts me or does wrong to me, that should't affect her, since they didn't do it to her.  (this is one area we haven't fleshed out yet)

This is pretty good kid so I'm not trying to be harsh or get into a "yes/no" thing.  I am concerned that she will verbalize one thing during the week and apparently do something different in practice.

She claims it has nothing to do with friends but her desire to learn about the Bible, yet so far has been unable to share even one Bible verse that is "on her heart".  (so I suspect it is about friends/a boy or something)

Mom (pwBPD) is mostly staying out of this.  Her basic input today was "like Romeo and Juliet if you try to keep her away, she will find a way.  Therefore if you don't want to her to go there, allow her to go there."  

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I made ethical complaints against pastors at past church that we attended but were not members, rather than dealing with those complaints, church made it clear I'm not allowed back on property, although they are clear my family is welcome.  (note:  all my allegations are provable objectively with recordings and documentation, church refused to listen, even though they teach recording conversations is wise)

We have been church shopping for a new church home and basically are down to two places.  

I've let them know that on case by case basis I'm ok with them going to parties and youth activities at old church for purposes or maintaining social connections.  I've also let them know that I'm not ok with them being in a position of "being taught" by pastors that are unethical (by their own standards, not mine).  

Last Sunday 14 year old got up early and left for the old church leaving us a note saying that she is almost and adult and feels God is leading her to make her own decisions about a church home.

After conversation with my P I had some conversations this past week with my daughter to better understand her and for her to better understand my concerns and I believed she was back onboard.

So, she had friends over and they stayed the night and when rest of family got up from breakfast to head out to church, they stayed staring at their phones and trying to ignore us.

I came back in house and asked what she was doing and she said she wanted to go to the other church.  I asked what about our conversations in the prior week gave her the idea that was ok (to her credit) she said nothing, but she was going to that church.

She spent 10 minutes avoiding answering direct questions, repeating that she wants to go and doesn't understand why she can't (she could verbalize this in our prior conversations)

She then started crying and stormed out of the house with her friends and they attended the other church.

When she got back and I was in living room I spoke to her and she ignored me.

She came back down and was intending to leave again with her friends she did respond to me saying "she had to be somewhere".

I said we needed to talk about it first, because I was unaware of her obligations so she came in and said she had to go to a movie with Mommy because of her friends schedule.

I clarified to her that for the rest of this week her priorities were get studying done for finals and making time for conversations with me.  That we obviously weren't communicating well and that the only way to understand each other was through communication.

I asked if she wanted to be understood and she reluctantly said yes.  I asked her if she wanted to understand how I thought through what was wise for her and the rest of the family and she reluctantly said yes.

I asked if she wanted to share her understanding of scripture on this matter with me and vice versa, again, reluctant yes.

Off she went to movie with Mom and I'm doing some deep thinking and posting here.

One theme she keeps repeating is even if someone hurts me or does wrong to me, that should't affect her, since they didn't do it to her.  (this is one area we haven't fleshed out yet)

This is pretty good kid so I'm not trying to be harsh or get into a "yes/no" thing.  I am concerned that she will verbalize one thing during the week and apparently do something different in practice.

She claims it has nothing to do with friends but her desire to learn about the Bible, yet so far has been unable to share even one Bible verse that is "on her heart".  (so I suspect it is about friends/a boy or something)

Mom (pwBPD) is mostly staying out of this.  Her basic input today was "like Romeo and Juliet if you try to keep her away, she will find a way.  Therefore if you don't want to her to go there, allow her to go there."  

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Very lucky that at 14 she was the youngest child in the house at the time.

It's one thing to have a teenager act out.

It's another thing to have a teenager act out in front of her friends or form a "group of girls that aren't going to take it".

and

It's another thing to have a 14 year old setting a bad example for handling conflict to the rest of the family.  Or more accurately, say things to me in a private conversation and then act out publicly in a completely different way.

Best

FF

[Fian]

I am not sure where she gets the idea that obeying parents is optional at 14.  Personally, I would never have told my parents that I was just going to disobey them and leave the house.  If I disagreed with them, I would be trying to get them to change their minds instead of defy them.

In my own personal experience, around 14 I probably did start to have strong opinions on where I wanted to go to church.  It did happen to be a different church than the rest of my family was going. 

Did you have any issues with the youth pastor of the church?  It might conceivably be possible to let her attend the youth group.  Of course, if you allow her, others in your family might want that as well.  One thing that you should do is discuss this with your wife.  It is important that you provide a united front to the family and that she not undermine you.

[Cat Familiar]

When I was 14 and wanted to go to a different church, the only reason was that there was a boy who attended there.

[formflier]

Going to youth events and wed night things was allowed.  The expectation/agreement was that we worship together as a family, especially when shopping for new churches because we want everyone to be involved.

Up to this point she was making solid to above average comments/observations about churches we went to.


Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

I am conflicted about what to say, FF, n cause my religious life was heavily controlled by my familt, and my personal and spiritual beliefs were invalidated by my parents and my church. So it is painful to go think about a teen girl feeling forced to attend or worship in a particular church.

What I will say is that freedom on Wed night and youth activities was more than I got until about age 16.

What is your main concern about her staying at the previous congregation?

[formflier]

The main concern is that we won't be having a common "conversation" about worship and a common "family experience".

A close second is related to the reasons I'm no longer affiliated with that church.  Essentially, the publicly preach "perfect Bible" and claim to follow those procedures and all that.

I know for a fact (my person experience) they don't do that in private.  They privately "add to the Bible", apparently to protect there status and influence (I obviously can't know their true motivation).  They publish ethical standards and don't follow them.  

Best,

FF

[formflier]

my personal and spiritual beliefs were invalidated by my parents and my church. 

Can you share more?

My teen expresses that this church "teaches the Bible" and "teaches about God" (implying others don't, but to be fair she doesn't actually say this)

Lots more conversations to have with my daughter, I'm quite aware there is more to understand here.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I think this is more of a parenting/teen issue than a Christian one.

At 14, teens are very peer oriented. You are considering a new church, but your D has been attending this church and has friends there. From what it sounds, the friends slept over the night before and were all going to the old church. Your D wanted to go with them. From her point of view, the friends were all going together, except her, and she would miss out.

It seems your family tends to default to "God is calling me to do this". Your wife brings God into discussions to validate what she wants. So, rather than say "but Daddy, all my friends are going to church 1 and I want to go too" ( which she thinks might get denied) she brings in a Higher Authority.

I understand your perspective, but from a teen age girl's point of view, having a fun sleepover and then seeing her friends all go together without her is pretty tough. I'd give her a pass on this one. You want her to want to go to church. To drag her away from her friends at that time might have felt punitive. At her age, she may be thinking that God is happy she goes to church and might not be that concerned about which one. Maybe there's a compromise somewhere here. She can go to church 1 with her friends sometime and church 2 as a family some times- and these times should not be right after a sleepover where she sees her friends go without her.

And, as Cat said, there could be a cute boy there too.  

[kells76]

Sigh... My post got eaten.

Briefly lots to unpack, a few ?'s from me

Is this same D that "got caught drinking"?

Timeline of this in relation to conversation you had with W (about kids and Bible) that you had to exit?

Has D ever expressed, implicit or explicit, concept of "I'll go but you can't make me believe what they preach" or anything related, reflecting inner/outer self distinction?

How would you rank the priorities you have regarding your D in this situation? I.e.
1. D has authentic relationship with God, valuing His truth above all else
2. D, while living at home, respects/obeys family practice re: church attendance
3. D models appropriate communication/conflict resolution skills in front of family
4. Etc, replace/reorder with your priorities

Looking forward to discussing this more with the group -- really good question, and I agree with many posters, I think it's "not really" about church at the core.

[Turkish]

I agree with Notwendy that she's seeking to retain connections with her peers.  What's the downside? Heresy? Getting wrapped up in the triangle between her parents and that church? Is there an upside or positive here?

[formflier]

I agree with Notwendy that she's seeking to retain connections with her peers.  What's the downside? Heresy? Getting wrapped up in the triangle between her parents and that church? Is there an upside or positive here?

The thing is, she says it's not about her peers.  Her friends are from school not church.  She doesn't hang out with church people.

I'm trying to rethink this, because I initially thought it was a peer thing as well.

Of course, it could be a peer/boy thing that we are not aware of.  She's a very social girl and has lots of friends that come over, none from church.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Yes, this is same girl that caught "drinking" and I stopped the "trial" that my wife had set up.

She is #5 and the second oldest girl. 

On the one had I have lots of parenting time, yet I've never...ever...faced this.

"This" being:  Agreeing on a Friday night we worship together and then openly defying this with an audience of her peers (again very glad my youngers were not here).

In my mind I have two separate issues. 

Where she wants to worship.
The open defiance thing.

I've got another cute post about this that I'll share later.  Cliff notes version.  Long talk with her yesterday about training horses.  She gave A+ lecture to me, then realized it was about her.  Her face was precious when I dropped her off at school.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

FF - think in the moment. Maybe she says it isn't about peers and maybe these aren't the regular peers but look at the situation: a sleep over ends, and the other girls are going to church 1. She wants to go with them in the moment.

This is totally normal for a teen age girl: to sleep over with a friend and go to church or Sunday school with the friend the next day.

Young teens don't usually have a fully formed abstract concept of God. They are just beginning to have abstract thinking developmentally. This is a stage where they start to question, to form their own concept.

It's also a stage to give them a little more rope. Not with alcohol. But wanting to go to church with friends isn't really a bad thing, all things considered.

[formflier]

I think i gave the wrong impression.  Those girls only go to that church when my daughter goes.  I don't believe they go to church whenever they are at home (and not over with us).

They've also gone with us from time to time when we've gone to other churches.

Just to clarify.

And it may be about people over there.  I'll see what I uncover.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Gotta be a boy 

[formflier]

Gotta be a boy 

And it could be.

There is a boy she sits with a lunch at school.  He has been over to our house some.  I don't believe he goes to church there, but I'll sniff around some.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I'll go with the boy idea too.

It may not be your daughter who is interested in a boy. It could be one of her friends. Teen girls tend to solicit their friends to come with them as it is safer to be in a group- that way the boy has no idea who has the crush and the girl doesn't risk him knowing it's her. There may have been some discussion at the sleep over of going as a group to the church where the cute boy is.

They may be It may be one of the girls who slept over who has the interest.

[GaGrl]

I am having a difficult time deciding how to respond on this, FF. Perhaps I am triggered because church attendance and religious beliefs have been so core to issues I have been in therapy to overcome.

Having religious and spiritual beliefs that differ from he's ram oh and church can mean a LOT and f invalidation. In my case, I would state beliefs and opinions only to be told, "Oh, you don't really think that." At its worst, what I believed was right and true and good was being invalidated by ministers in the pulpit, government leaders, and school officials ( think -- living through the civil rights era in Alabama).

So if D14 is examining her religious preferences and spiritual needs, she needs room and some freedom to do so.

Then again...it could be about a boy!

[Enabler]

I come from a family of 3 kids, I also have 3 kids.

My oldest sister had her first drink at 18, she was a goody two shoes and clung tightly to RULES.

My middle sister had her first drink at 16, she was a pathfinder and chomped through a lot of parental rules and sludge.

I think I had my first drink around 14/15, the sludge was gone the boundaries were bashed down and nothing bad had happened.

My point... your D14 is at the very end of a long stream of sludge chompers, she looks at her older siblings and see's them having choice. As a teenager she's likely to want to differentiate herself from you anyway but being the 5th kid (I think it's even more) this desire to be able to have things (choice) that her siblings have would be even more heightened. You've made choices for her, she doesn't buy into those choices nor likely see's them as relevant to her. Maybe she connects to the teaching or the worship or something there and likes the vibe... or a boy. Maybe she respects you enough to not say "Dad, actually, I think you've been a colossal pr!ck about this church thing, they are good people, I like them and I don't see what you see. I know you want me to have some sort of biblical reason for my actions because that's how you see the world, but I'm just not like you Dad, I'm different." What would you say if she did say that to you? Does she know you're open to comments she knows you won't like, and I don't mean that you are willing to discuss and change her mind or ask her to justify herself through scripture or other, I mean you listen, you say nothing and you don't discuss them and accept them and not give her a sense she is betraying you.

I refused to go to Church when I was 14, instead I preferred going rollerskating round a local shopping mall car park. Church was time poorly spent on a Sunday morning. It was around this time when my parents were being shunned from the church we attended because they objected to the hire of a pastor (failed an election twice). I remember having the sense that "they" (my parents included) weren't acting in the spirit of Christianity, and frankly thought 'Church' (the institution) was a load of rubbish... "A golf club for non-golfers". I think it's great that your D wants to go to Church, and excluding the rather odd advice and subsequent handling of the issue it was a Church I sensed you enjoyed too. Maybe there's an element of your D saying "Hey, your problem is your problem, I've not seen it, it's adult stuff, I like it there!"

I know your stance on the old church, I agree with your stance and I think you did the biblical thing... but I just wonder whether or not she does, and frankly that doesn't make her a bad person.

[formflier]

Update:

D14 and I have a chat with a pastor at one of the two new churches we are attending (and likely going to whittle down to 1 in a month or so)

Good talk.  D14 is great kid, very articulate.  I'm 2 weeks into this, so still catching up.

Today I'm going to reflect on the conversation and consider a wise way forward.

Her thought process and belief is that the only church ONLY teaches what's in the Bible and since she did not participate in (hear) their unbiblical teaching, she is struggling.

My position is that kids should focus on being kids and I don't want to expose her to a lot of confusing adult stuff before they are ready.

I will say that now and in the past I didn't want to "hear" about things...I wanted to "know".  So, there is a lot of me that I see in her.

The one place where I didn't gain more understanding.  She is adamant that she has been praying and reading her Bible and through that feels led to this church and feels led that her parents "should allow her to".  When asked if she could share what book she was reading, she avoided the question.

This was not a meeting to pin people down, so I left it that I was having a hard time connecting the dots without more information.  She said she could understand that.

The pastor said he urged us to both slow down and pray. 

He asked me to consider the wisdom of sharing more and I said I would.

He asked her to consider how she could better express how she determined God is leading her and she said she would.

That's the quick version anyway. 

I appreciate all your ideas and perspectives, please keep them coming.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

There is an odd logic train and I need to gently "pierce"

She wants to go to a church that preaches the Bible.  A very literal interpretation of the Bible.

The church she "only" wants to attend preaches (literally) that children her age should honor God by obeying their parents, unless they are being asked to sin (like hey kid, go rob a bank).

They preach that the father is the final word on religious matters in the home that God placed him in and since God picked where he wanted D14 to grow up, she should trust in God that her parents know best.

So, she wants to go to a church that teaches the Bible but doesn't want to follow what that church teaches. 

I haven't "gone there" yet and likely won't for a while, since that will likely shut down conversation.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Do you allow your daughter to make decisions based on feeling rather than thoughtful consideration?

That might sound like madness, but she is in a transition where she wants to make choices, but maybe she wants to make choice but doesn't yet want to full make choices based on specific consideration.

"I want the chocolate one"... "Why?"... "I dunno"
"I want to dye my hair pink"... "Why?" ... "just because!"

You and the pastor are putting her in a position where she has to justify her choices with thoughtfulness (in an adult way). This seems to result in her either shutting down, or making up "God told me" reasons (impossible to prove, my W does this a lot) as to why she made her choices.

What might the consequences be of pushing for her to choose the thoughtful choice? Well for starters she's unlikely to be able to change her feeling on the matter so she may well resent those who made her make the rational choice (and forced her to think rather than feel) rather than make a choice based on her gut feeling (which had no rational explanation), or she will make up more 'reasons' and then feel a greater emotional distance and less acceptance from you... sound familiar!

[formflier]

She wants to be able to make this choice on her own "because she is almost and adult" and can "act like an adult"

"So...D14, then it's reasonable for me to approach you as an adult and expect you to respond as an adult...right?  "  (she gets this)

We also have had great "fun" with horse training analogies. 

I asked her if she was training a horse and the horse "felt" like it was time to go to the barn and the trainer "knew" there was more work to do should the trainer just shrug and "go with the horses feelings" (of course she answered no).  That the horse should be trained to respect the rider and that the rider has to respect the horse (for instance..perhaps the horse is "telling" the rider he tossed a shoe or is lame)

This is number 5, yet this is the first time it appears I have a child heading towards "I'm going to do what I want, regardless of what my parents think (perhaps because God told me)"

So...I don't want to provoke her, yet I also can't save her from natural consequences should she thoughtfully choose to go down that route.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Each child is it's own beast, I have 3 very different children ranging from compliant to utterly and intentionally disobedient. There could be environmental reasons for that or natural levels of risk appetite.

To keep you horse training analogy, what if there were loads of other 'trained' horses running around 'free' in the training ring whilst your 'untrained' horse was being trained?

Faith isn't rational. Church and worship is a lot to do with feeling, so again it can't necessarily be rationalised. Have you ever noticed how in a small church they might do a call to give your life to Christ and no one goes up, yet if you go to a mega church with thousands of people, super high end music production and maybe some mood lighting... people are clambering over each other to go to the front! Now you could argue that's to do with statistics, herd mentality and a bunch of other cognitive bias or even the Holy Spirit, but I'd imagine that most of those people at the front 'felt' something which compelled them to the front rather than rationalised the choice to walk up there. That doesn't make those people less adult because they might not necessarily be able to verbalise why they chose to go up the front.

[formflier]

To keep you horse training analogy, what if there were loads of other 'trained' horses running around 'free' in the training ring whilst your 'untrained' horse was being trained?

We actually discussed exactly that example.

She was totally in agreement that the trainer must not "give in" to the horse, but may need to change methods, change environment (horses can get "buddy sour"..so separate buddy's).

100% agreement that it would be unkind, unwise and produce a poor horse to abandon sound training principles in an attempt to "make a horse happy".

I can also tell that she "get it" but doesn't like it.

100% agree each child is it's own beast.  I'm shocked how different they are.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Boy update

If this turns out to be about a boy (I see all you gals laughing at me right now...stop it...), there can be only 1. 

He has been sitting at her table at school (public not church school) for a few months.  He's been over to our house a couple of times and he seems to be a very nice young man.

My kinda guy, confident, looked me in the eye and all that.  (sigh...)

Anyway I've been working intel and he is going out of state on Friday.  I think he sometimes attends Faith and might do stuff with D14 over there. 

More intel to do in the convo tonight, but if she is fine going to other churches while he is out of state, yet attitude changes when he is back...well...that's something to think about.

Parenting teenagers...lovely.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

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