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Author Topic: The Sword of Damocles: Family  (Read 600 times)
Ozzie101
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« on: December 20, 2019, 09:19:05 AM »

Sorry for the obscure reference. Basically, the Sword of Damocles refers to a situation in which something bad could happen to someone at any moment -- something's hanging over the person's head, ready to fall.

He thinks we're all tied at the apron strings. That my sisters and I can't function without asking my parents for permission or opinions on stuff. I asked him for an example. He couldn't think of one. We're not independent like he is. He can go months without talking to his mom and he's fine.

We are a close family. Is there some enmeshment? There may be. I'll admit that. I don't know. But we also just genuinely enjoy each other's company. H doesn't get that. To him it's a failure to launch. People should dislike their families and get as far aways as possible -- feel like he does.

Last night H said it hurts his feelings that I don't share much about our family with my FOO. This has come up before. And I get where he comes from.

That's something I've never been good at. For many years, I really didn't have any "news" to share with anyone. And I'm just not good at or used to bragging or putting info out there. I see his point. I get that. And it's something I was starting to work on. For the last several months, though, I pulled back again, feeling like sharing stuff with my sisters at the time might be pushing it, given their very strong negative feelings about H. That may have been the wrong move. Maybe I should have been doing the opposite. I don't know.

I apologized.

But, I'm genuinely not sure what H thinks I should have been sharing. Other than a rather exciting baseball tournament this fall which, yeah, I should have shared, SS9 hasn't had anything going on. My sisters occasionally share pictures -- usually of kids dressed for a performance of some kind, visiting Santa or making Christmas cookies. But it's not every day stuff and doesn't happen all that often. SS hasn't had any performances. And when he's with us, all he does is sit on the couch and watch TV or play on his electronics. I shared a first day of school picture. Last spring, I shared when SS won a bowling tournament. Last night, I probably should have asked H (in a nice way, not in a way that makes me sound like a jerk) what he thinks I should have shared -- so I know what his feelings and expectations are. Why is it I think of what to say or do hours after the fact? Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

My T suggested that, when the holidays are over and things seem to be relatively calm, H and I might meet with his T to talk about SS9 in a neutral environment with a third party who can help us sort it out. Sort of go over what our own feelings and expectations are.

It's come up before that we're not on the same page. When we'd been married for a week, he got grumpy after a family party that I seemed closer to and more affectionate with my sisters' kids than with "a kid you share a house with." SS and I had lived in the house together for about 2 days at that point. The kids ran at me wanting hugs. SS has never been receptive to physical affection from me and pulls away. So, I stopped offering, not wanting to make him uncomfortable. Was I supposed to push my 2-year-old niece away when she wanted to sit in my lap? Earlier this year, his T set him straight on some things -- that my approach (not pushing, letting SS set the pace) was the right way to handle it. That if I pushed things, SS was likely to shut down or push back.

Are SS and I close? Not particularly. But we're respectful of each other. I'm kind to him. He mostly ignores me, but I don't get all bent out of shape over it. He's a reserved kid who's never shown much interest. Tends to answer any questions with a shrug or a monosyllable. Again, that's fine. I'm an adult. It would probably be easier to get close to him if he were more open, but that's just not who he is.

Would I like to have a closer relationship with SS? Sure. But I know I can't "make" that happen. Do I care about SS? Absolutely. Do I love him? Not like H or his ex do. I think that's acceptable and normal. SS and I get along. That's miles above what a lot of step-relationships are.

That's a sticky thing, but so is my family's relationship to SS and my relationship with my family.

H seems to want and expect SS to be treated just like all the other kids. In many ways, he is. My parents and grandmother spend the same on him for Christmas and birthdays as they do the other kids. When he's at family events, he runs and plays with my nieces and everyone's nice to him.

But the relationships are not going to be 100% the same. He hasn't been around since birth to build those bonds. It takes time for those things to grow. When my sisters or mother or grandmother (he responds better to my dad and brothers-in-law -- he seems to prefer men overall) have tried to talk to SS or said something nice to him, he has a monosyllabic answer and runs off. They understand kids. It's fine. But it's also unlikely they'll develop a strong bond with him if there's no interaction.

Where H really gets hung up is on my relationships with my sisters' kids. He's bothered that I have close relationships with them (particularly my nieces -- nephew is 14 now, enough said Being cool (click to insert in post) but that there's no reciprocation.

I get it. I do.

But the way I look at it is this: I can't make my sisters do anything. I can't make them care. I can't make them develop a relationship with SS. Would it be nice if they took an interest and made an effort? Absolutely. That would be great. But it's not a requirement.

Their relationship (if any) with SS is always going to be different than my relationship with their kids. Early infant bonding. Lifetime connection. Yada, yada. Before I married, I had a lot of time and energy to spend on their kids. They don't have the same. That's life.

Here's the thing. My relationship with the kids is independent of my sisters, H, SS. I could have a huge falling-out with my sisters and I'd still love and care about their kids. One of those kids could call me and I'd answer in a heartbeat -- even if I were angry with their mom. Because I've built up bonds with them as individuals.

To H, they're extensions of their parents. Just as SS is an extension of him. Anything I do or want to do for their kids, he sees as an endorsement of my sisters and support of them. Doesn't seem to understand that, to me, my sisters have nothing to do with it.

So, I feel conflicted and confused. Do I push with my sisters to show more interest in SS? I feel like that would backfire. Do I just keep doing what I've been doing? That would just increase H's frustration and hurt.

Like I said, my T thinks this is something we might need to hash out with his T there.
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2019, 12:49:59 PM »

I hear a lot of you second guessing yourself in this post.

He’s not “independent,” he’s adrift from both his families. So what if you’re “tied to the apron strings”?

You can be honest and proud that you have a close knit family and say, “I love how close my family members are. I love my parents and I respect their judgment and wisdom. I feel blessed to have such a wonderful family.”

“You want me to share our news? Tell me what you want me to share and I’ll be glad to pass that onto my family.”

Get yourself out of the middle and support your own feelings and opinions of how you behave with your nieces and nephew.
“Of course I’m close to my sisters’ kids. I’ve known them since birth. I’d like to be closer to SS, but I’m respecting his boundaries and if he wants a closer relationship, I’m very open to that.”

It’s your inability to stand up for your own feelings and opinions that your husband targets. If you’re very clear that this is how you do things, and you don’t waver, you won’t give him room to try and make you change your behavior.

It will take a bit of behavioral change from you and willingness to endure some grumpiness from him. “I love my nieces and I have a very special relationship with them. Conversation over on this topic.” (I’m sure that’s a lot more blunt than you’re willing to be, but perhaps you can end these complaints once and for all, given that he realizes you are not going to be swayed.)
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2019, 01:02:02 PM »

I'm sorry for all the mental turmoil this must cause - it certainly is a more complicated situation with step-children, nieces/nephews and a sisters that are currently emotionally distant (I'm assuming they still haven't responded to your email?).  I am an only child with 2 biological children, so I haven't been in these situations myself (though my H claims I also have to get my parents permission for everything, which I don't, obviously).  That being said, and please feel free to tell me to pound sand, but I think you need to do what you feel is best.  Your H is going to think what he thinks, and it's not always going to be the reality (feelings = facts).  If you feel your relationships with your nieces/nephews and SS are appropriate, and it certainly sounds reasonable, then you should keep doing it!  I totally get trying to change things up to create more peace, but there's a certain point you'll end up bending yourself into a pretzel trying to please everyone, which could end up with you feeling discontent or worse, resentful, and your H will still think what he thinks at that particular time.  Full disclosure - I've been reading Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist and it's really big on detaching from the pwBPD's thought process and being okay with what *you* think is appropriate.  It's been eye opening for me, because I'm quite good at twisting myself into a pretzel for anyone.  HOWEVER - if he listens to his T (which is awesome), then perhaps a joint session will help him to understand your position.
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2019, 01:08:31 PM »

Excerpt
He’s not “independent,” he’s adrift from both his families.

Really good distinction there.

Yes, I think this is where my whole "ability to see things from both sides" thing comes back to bite me.

And I do plan to ask him what sorts of things he wants me to share.

I understand where he's coming from -- even if I don't agree. Makes it hard for me to take a really hard line. I keep wanting to compromise. Yet, in this case, I think I'm starting to see that there's not really a compromise he'll accept. This will continue to be a problem as long as my family is around. And they're not going anywhere.

He accused me last night of not understanding him. I asked if he felt like he understood me. He said yes. I said, "Well, I feel like I do understand you. I just don't agree with you."

Said that I'm more connected to my parents and grandmother than to him. I said, kindly, that I was connected to them. Not "more." Just in a different way. I said, "It's not pie. Having some for one person doesn't mean less for another. There's plenty to go around."

Anyway, he feels like I'm not really "all in" with him and SS. And the thing is, I don't think there's anything I could do, short of completely cutting my family out of my life, that would convince him otherwise.

My only/best option is to become more firm. I have. I've refused to stop my birthday tradition with my nieces. He doesn't like that, but he'll just have to handle it.

Excerpt
I totally get trying to change things up to create more peace, but there's a certain point you'll end up bending yourself into a pretzel trying to please everyone, which could end up with you feeling discontent or worse, resentful, and your H will still think what he thinks at that particular time.

Oh, I'm already there. That's what I've done for a long time and set an unhealthy pattern. Thank goodness I see that now. It will take work and stepping out of my people-pleasing comfort zone, but I know it's on me to change the status quo. I have to do what I believe is right. My H is not a "reliable narrator" -- or reliable moral compass.
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2019, 02:11:24 PM »

The ability to see both sides is great!

The desire to compromise is noble!

The problem is having these abilities and values when you are dealing with someone who doesn’t. You are not on a level playing field. Any openness to negotiate is seen as a sign of weakness and a chance for him to get his own way.

That’s not to say that you don’t compromise. Rather it’s saying that these discussions and negotiations are better accomplished in your own head, rather than externalizing them with someone who doesn’t have the ability or desire to understand your position.

Certainly he likely does on issues that aren’t highly charged for him. But family is not one of those topics. Best to figure out your own boundaries and limits and hold firm, and not give him any reason to think that your relationship with your nieces is negotiable.
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2019, 02:45:05 PM »

Yes. I've come to see (after you pointed it out to me -- thanks!) that my agreeableness, willingness to compromise, etc., are weaknesses in his eyes and likely contribute to his fears that my family could turn me against him.

Sad that he doesn't see (and will likely never see) that the only person who could "turn me against him" is him.

I'm making progress. But it's not a smooth transition and it does leave me with some internal struggle and insecurity -- which I then spew all over the place here. Thank you to everyone for the support, by the way! It helps more than I can say.
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2019, 03:14:52 PM »

We are all mirrors for each other here.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post) And none of this is easy, plus we are in relationships where the typical rules of engagement often don’t work.

I’ve certainly been to willing to bend, to compromise, to see others’ perspectives, often to my own detriment. Since pwBPD have an insecure sense of self, they rely upon us to be strong, and they can misperceive willingness to compromise as weakness, rather than strength.

I never could figure out why my husband would get irritated when he’d present me with a choice of where I wanted to go out for dinner and I’d say “Whichever you prefer. They all sound good to me.”

Now I see it as him perceiving that I’m indecisive, insecure, not willing to tell him my “true” opinion, when in reality, all options on the table were fine by me and I really didn’t have a preference.” To avoid conflict, I now say “Option B” and he feels happy that he is able to please me.
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2019, 03:21:35 PM »

Ah yes, the "Where to go for dinner" debate. I'm one who will say "Hmm, either sounds good" and genuinely mean it, like you. But I'm finding it's better to just make a choice because otherwise, we'll sit there for an hour trying to figure it out.

H and I just really do see things differently. I see a willingness to understand, compromise (within reason) and forgive as ultimate strengths. To him, it's being weak and a push-over.

It's those fundamental differences, along with the views on family, that sometimes make me wonder if there really is any hope for us. Things were good earlier this year, another honeymoon phase, but the whole time, I had this niggling feeling -- knowing somehow that the problems were going to come back. It's depressing.

I'm not one to give in and give up. But I feel stronger now than I did before. Even if things don't work out (and I truly want to do all I can to make it work and get on a more solid footing but it's not all in my court), I believe that I will be OK. It's the uncertainty and back-and-forth that are hell.
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2019, 03:39:38 PM »

I came here in crisis five years ago. I was distraught to realize that the wonderful man I had recently married was now nowhere to be seen and this whack job had taken his place.

The man I married was one of the smartest people I’ve ever met—Ivy League educated, top of his class, law degree. Not only was he smart, he was kind, compassionate, understanding.

Now I was living with a nut job who regularly got drunk, would fly off the handle over insignificant things, and sometimes was so irrational that he would hit his head with his closed fist while he was yelling, “You hate me. This is what you want. You want to destroy me.”

I truly didn’t see much hope. And ironically it was a time when we should have been joyfully happy. We had just finished a really problematic huge addition to the house I had built that took much longer and was way more expensive than originally conceived. He had recently retired from his law practice, which he hated. And he had received a huge sum of money as an inheritance. But things were far from good, much to my complete dismay.

A year of couples’ counseling didn’t yield much improvement, but what was helpful was a year later when I saw that psychologist individually and she disclosed her opinion that he has a personality disorder and around the same time, I began  to participate here.

Today, we get along great. There’s an occasional BPD roadbump, but I now know not to drive over it, but around it. He still drinks more than I think is healthy, but I haven’t seen him sh!tfaced drunk thankfully. He initiated twice monthly therapy sessions of his own accord. And mostly he behaves like a non. If you’d asked me if this was possible five years ago, I don’t think I could have believed it. That said, he still has a personality disorder and that isn’t going away. But it’s a relationship that has a lot of value for me and I feel more love for him than I could have imagined.
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2019, 04:21:26 PM »

Thank you, Cat. I know there's hope -- it's just hard to internalize at times. Your story helps. Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2019, 08:50:35 AM »

That said, he still has a personality disorder and that isn’t going away. But it’s a relationship that has a lot of value for me and I feel more love for him than I could have imagined.

Very similar thoughts on my relationship.

I simply could not have imagined several years ago that "I would be back" to this level of "happiness" and "contentment" with my marriage.

My path is a bit different.  I just celebrated 25 years of marriage.  First 15 to 17 or so were really good, with some iffy stuff towards the end of that time range.

Natural disaster and major changes in my family.  I went one way and my wife went the other "mentally".  Neither knew what to do.  So we made things worse for a few years and then took a few years to come back towards "healthy".

There are still bumps here and there and it can be hard to figure out what is personality and what is personality disorder.

Funny story:  A while back my P suggested I think about my wife like a little yappy dog (hang with me here).  

They can bare their teeth and let you know whose boss for a bit, then they are all lovey dovey for most of the time.  She asked if I'd be ok "letting her nibble at my ankles" when she needs to.

Somehow, that was one of the things that really helped me relax "when she would start nibbling".

Best,

FF

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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2019, 08:26:46 AM »

Excerpt
There are still bumps here and there and it can be hard to figure out what is personality and what is personality disorder.

I think that's part of the issue. I find myself wondering which behaviors and traits and attitudes are disorder and which are just him. Or does it even matter? I don't know.

We were able to have a reasonably calm discussion last night. He was upset over how my sisters never like my posts on Facebook, yet I like theirs (theirs are always about their kids). I was able to stay calm and he never got worked up either. I used the, "No, I don't care about this" that Cat's recommended. Didn't set him off.

I also told him, "Hey, if there are things I'm not sharing you think I should, please point them out." He didn't like that. Said that I should figure it out and want to do it on my own (pretty much what I expected). I mentioned a few things I had shared and asked him what I'd missed that I should have sent around. He couldn't think of anything and it actually seemed to calm him down.

I made it very clear that I don't care what my sisters like or don't like on Facebook. My relationships with the kids are independent and I'm not giving them up. It would be nice if my sisters showed more interest in SS, but there's not really anything I or we can do about that. They're not required.

Anyway, I stayed calm and firm the whole time. I didn't get anxious or worked-up or start back-tracking. Just stated facts. Showed empathy where appropriate (or at least I think I did).

He said he knew I was right about some things (my relationships with the kids being different from my sisters' with SS, etc.) but that he just needs to work on really getting it. All ended on a good note.

I would be optimistic, but we've had this before, where he'll agree with me on my way of seeing things, then when he gets upset, there it goes again.
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2019, 09:39:47 AM »


I would be optimistic, but we've had this before, where he'll agree with me on my way of seeing things, then when he gets upset, there it goes again.

So...what does this tell you about what gets him upset?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2019, 10:02:42 AM »

Hmm. I'm not sure. We do tend to have a better outcome when I stay calm and firm.
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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2019, 12:10:45 PM »

We do tend to have a better outcome when I stay calm and firm.
Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2019, 04:02:24 PM »

It's not about the rational argument.

It's about his emotional control.

If you center yours, he will be better.

Best

FF
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« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2019, 07:52:25 AM »

...
Last night H said it hurts his feelings that I don't share much about our family with my FOO. This has come up before. And I get where he comes from.
...

Not to pick out minutiae, but this point really bugged me, because it was one of many claims my uBPDxw brought up.  The "problems" she claimed she had with my family really put the issues - in our relationship - abusive, controlling behavior -  in stark contrast with what normal, loving relationships look like.

Maybe a pwBPD really does have normal human feelings, I don't know!  But in my experience, claims they make like those above are all about control, not a genuine expression of emotion.

 
...
Anyway, he feels like I'm not really "all in" with him and SS. And the thing is, I don't think there's anything I could do, short of completely cutting my family out of my life, that would convince him otherwise.

My only/best option is to become more firm. I have. I've refused to stop my birthday tradition with my nieces. He doesn't like that, but he'll just have to handle it.
...
Oh, I'm already there. That's what I've done for a long time and set an unhealthy pattern. Thank goodness I see that now. It will take work and stepping out of my people-pleasing comfort zone, but I know it's on me to change the status quo. I have to do what I believe is right. My H is not a "reliable narrator" -- or reliable moral compass.

Exactly.  So even if you shared more about your family with your FOO, he won't really be happy; he won't care.  He's just looking for things to pick on you about, and at that moment that happened to be one thing he noticed.  Being "all in" is a vague notion, and impossible to ever fulfill or live up to.  The real issue is that he's insecure, and fears abandonment, and is threatened by any other personal relationships you may have.  In my own case, my XW claimed I needed to show I loved her "enough."  What was enough?  No one, not even her, could say.  But it was an impossible standard to meet.  She even held firm on this during MC, when the counselor called her out on it, for being abusive and controlling in and of itself. 

Maybe there's a way to respond so as to minimize contact, and "ignore" the noise from your H, so you can fully enjoy and experience the relationships with your FOO, while keeping your H, (if not happy), at least placated enough that he doesn't seriously interfere with your family and social interactions.  But I think you shouldn't beat yourself up if you can't do this, and the struggles continue.  It's not easy changing the status quo when it's opposed by someone committed to creating conflict. 

I fell into that trap for a while - feeling like I bore some responsibility for keeping the peace - and it gets exhausting.  It also can lead you to feel depressed, and like a failure, not realizing you're engaged in an impossible task.
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« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2019, 09:49:51 AM »

Yes, FF. It's the emotions that are key. When he's dysregulating, reason doesn't really come into it. It's about him being able to center and regulate, which is easier to do if I'm stable.

Thanks for your input, PeteWitsend! I'm finally seeing some of the "problems" for what they are. I know that he's threatened by my family for a number of reasons. There's also some jealousy probably mixed in, too.

I'll do my best with it all. I will do what I feel and believe is right. If he doesn't like it, then I just stay firm and calm. He'll wear himself out and (if history is anything to go by), will eventually return to baseline and either agree with me or back off from pushing his side when he sees I won't budge.

Excerpt
In my own case, my XW claimed I needed to show I loved her "enough."  What was enough?  No one, not even her, could say.  But it was an impossible standard to meet.

Yes, I've experienced that as well. I don't support him. I don't take his side. I don't really love him. Only when he dysregulates, though. He's upset and lashing out. A year ago, I would be hurt and would downright panic when I heard things like that, sure I was failing. Now, I can see it for what it is. That helps a lot.
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« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2019, 10:51:16 AM »

Yes, FF. It's the emotions that are key. When he's dysregulating, reason doesn't really come into it. It's about him being able to center and regulate, which is easier to do if I'm stable.
 

I would challenge you to figure out (perhaps through trial and error) if "stable" or "absent" is better.

For me, if it's a "light" dysreg, I'll ask the question if more talking is helpful or perhaps I can think about what she has said up until this point, or perhaps problem solve.

For a regular one or something bigger I generally back out all together and focus on removing fuel, as much as I'm able.

Best,

FF

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« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2019, 03:57:18 PM »

How are you doing Ozzie? How has he been at events with your family?
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« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2019, 07:57:29 AM »

Thanks for checking in, Cat!

The family stuff has been fine (well, my family stuff). We went to Christmas Eve and it all went well. He seemed fine -- quiet, but that's normal -- and no dysregulations after. SS had a fun time. Christmas itself was a good day.

The day after Christmas, H and SS went to see H's adopted mom for a couple of days, with me joining the next evening since I'm out of vacation time. Things did not go well there. Apparently on Day 2, things disintegrated. Her OCD behaviors and food obsessions started stressing him out, as usual. (Things like her taking two hours to fix breakfast -- with a 9-year-old child waiting to eat. Making waffles and getting onto them if she felt like they were using too much syrup, etc.) This went on. Then, H went to pick up the food for dinner and he felt like she got onto him for something (I'm not clear on what -- something to do with him going to the bathroom as soon as he got back instead of getting the food out of the box first) and he left the room. She followed him, told him he was being rude, then asked SS (who was playing on his iPad and hadn't even been in the room) "Don't you think your dad is being rude?" Want to make H mad? Pull his kid into something like that.

So, I walk into all this. MIL is in the kitchen working on dinner and starts crying when I walk in. Talking about all she and her late husband did for H, how she tries to talk to him and he shuts her out, etc. H is upstairs fuming, debating whether to stay or go. Both are venting to me.

We ended up staying and leaving late the next morning. MIL acted like nothing had happened. H stayed cool and distant. SS and I were just kind of there.

H has been in a "borderline" mood ever since.
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« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2019, 11:45:24 AM »

 She followed him, told him he was being rude, then asked SS (who was playing on his iPad and hadn't even been in the room) "Don't you think your dad is being rude?" Want to make H mad? Pull his kid into something like that.

This is the kind of behavior that led me to being "voluntarily estranged" from my in laws.  My communication with them for the last several years has been limited to texts about logistics of child care.

OK, this is a stepson, so perhaps it's complicated for you.

Here is how FF would have advised.

1.  Ignore it completely, act like the comment didn't happen.  

2.  If SS starts to respond "This is an adult matter, SS please stay out of it and don't respond.  We'll talk further about this in private."

3.  My guess is MIL will go nuclear.  Pack up and leave.


I really don't see much middle ground.  Either put up with it without comment and continue going to the bathroom when "nature calls" (vice when MIL "allows" or "approves") or don't participate by leaving.  The "middle ground" is likely a bunch of victimization and horror.


 Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

What kind of things was she saying to you when she tried to "vent"?

Best,

FF





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« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2019, 12:15:39 PM »

Yeah, the history between H and MIL is complicated and I really don't know a lot of the details -- just vague comments from H. He's referred to a miserable childhood. A lot of controlling behavior. And from what he's said and I've seen, MIL has some issues that could be addressed with therapy or medication. She's got a LOT of OCD tendencies. Hardly ever leaves her house. Complains that she never sees us, but refuses to come visit because it's too difficult (much easier for us with a child, school, full-time jobs, two dogs to board...). And, as I said, has all sorts of food issues. She'll ask H or even me about SS's weight to make sure he's not getting fat. The kid is 9 and not even close to being plump. No wonder H has food issues bordering on an eating disorder.

When we were alone, she said she didn't know what she was doing to make H act that way. She said she asked him about his job because she wanted to know more about his life because he never tells her anything. Seemed genuinely perplexed. Said he'd always had a problem with anger. (He's told me he used to rage at them, throw stuff against walls, etc. -- she didn't give details.) Asked if he was ever that way with me. (I lied and said no.) When H and SS are there, they spend all their time together upstairs and they won't interact with her or talk to her. Was upset because she showed H her church bulletin where she'd bought a poinsettia in memory of H's dad. It hurt her that H had no reaction. "We did so much for him. FIL did everything for him. And he just turns away from us." Said he's a grown man and should be man enough to tell her things or to say if there's a problem.

It was a lot, and I was sort of flooded by it all. I've been on the receiving end of his rage/anger before and it would leave anyone really shaken. She's always so controlled but she was full-on melting down then, sobbing. I stayed calm and listened, gently saying something when it seemed appropriate and standing up for H as best I could in a way she might actually listen to, given her emotional state, while all the time trying to listen and try to figure out what had actually happened since I wasn't there for any of it. Basically, I was just trying to calm the situation.

Then I went back up to him and let him vent. He cooled off.

Like I said, we stayed. Everyone acted like nothing had happened. H is still pretty ticked, though. Apparently this sort of thing was a common occurrence for years. He's left early many times before. I think once he got there, was there for two hours, then packed and went home. She mentioned that too. She seemed bewildered as to why they leave early. It's been easier since I've been around because I can talk to his mom and deal with her without blowing my stack, so I kind of end up being the buffer and someone for H to vent to. This time, they had a full 24 hours together without me and it was obviously too much. Not my job to be the buffer, I know, and it's probably triangulation. H kept asking me "what do I do? What do you want me to do?" I kept telling him, "I can't tell you what to do. But we'll do whatever you think is right." I wasn't going to take responsibility for it.
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« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2019, 02:17:43 PM »


When she acts "genuinely bewildered", have you or anyone ever asked her if she wants to understand the reason? 

Wait until she says yes.  Then let her know you will tell her if she will listen and reflect for a few hours prior to further discussion.

If..and "if" is a big one, there is going to be discussion, it can't turn into a debate.  The moment she "debates", tell her THAT is the reason...right there.

I've got to believe that the course you picked is a good one.  What would you think about offering to talk about matters other than your hubby and venting.

Tricky waters to navigate.  Props to you for helping your family navigate them!

Best,

FF

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« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2020, 08:50:05 AM »

Thanks, FF!

That's a great suggestion about how to talk to her about this should it come up again.

And we did move on. After she vented and then I went upstairs to talk to H for a bit, I came back down and sat with her for a while. We talked about a lot of other things -- SS's school, stories from our own childhoods, just general chit-chat and she was a lot calmer.

I've known about the difficulties with his mom. This was the first time I've really experienced it first-hand, even though I wasn't there for the big event itself, just the aftermath.

H heard from SS's mom that he mentioned the incident to her. Apparently SS just told her "Dad got in trouble with Grandma!" He thought it was funny. H and I were both glad to know he wasn't scarred or really bothered by the whole thing. H's ex is, of course, aware of the difficulties and history. She was surprised it didn't end up going nuclear.
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« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2020, 09:02:22 AM »

she was a lot calmer.
 

This is the "lure" and it's a place that makes "wisdom" hard to sort out.

Some times listening to a bunch of toxic and dysfunctional stuff results in a pwBPD that is calmer and much more pleasant to be around.

So..they "emotionally vomit" and feel better (that makes sense) 

The problem is...who "is the vomit on".  How does that make them feel? 

If it's a little bit here and there...well...no big deal. 

But when it's a regular thing and/or triggers other stuff within "us"...well..that just doesn't work.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2020, 09:37:44 AM »

Good point. H is like that. He'll go into a rant or a dysregulation of some sort and then, when it's over, he feels better. Depending on the topic, sometimes I don't exactly feel great when he's finished.

I wonder about his mom, really.
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