14 year old daughter not wanting to worship with family Part 3

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342222.0

Yes it is same daughter.

And..(FYI) all discussions and me and daughter.  Joint discussions with FFw just don't work if they take longer than 2 or 3 minutes.

If she asked to go to church because of a boy I could work something out, occasionally...and knowing the parents I would be shocked if they wouldn't let him come with us sometimes.  (again...really great people)

It's my "job" to guide my kids in their spirituality.  Guide is different than control, but depending on the level of whackiness,  it may morph into control.  I can't imagine it goes there, especially when my daughter sees the benefits with being straightforward and the benefits/consequences of whacky justifications.

 And..I'm willing to consider the possibility that there is a point of view I've not considered.  She is now accountable to share that and I'm accountable to listen (last week of January).

There have been related discussions about her values and how those values get used by her and what to do when others challenge your values.

Follow that with "where do your values come from?"  

Note...these are not lectures, they are mostly listening sessions with some questions and summaries from me...and I have to say she is doing really well with them.

I'm not sure why she has chosen to make certain claims about what she has read, but I'll find out as gently as possible.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342222.0

Yes it is same daughter.

And..(FYI) all discussions and me and daughter.  Joint discussions with FFw just don't work if they take longer than 2 or 3 minutes.

If she asked to go to church because of a boy I could work something out, occasionally...and knowing the parents I would be shocked if they wouldn't let him come with us sometimes.  (again...really great people)

It's my "job" to guide my kids in their spirituality.  Guide is different than control, but depending on the level of whackiness,  it may morph into control.  I can't imagine it goes there, especially when my daughter sees the benefits with being straightforward and the benefits/consequences of whacky justifications.

 And..I'm willing to consider the possibility that there is a point of view I've not considered.  She is now accountable to share that and I'm accountable to listen (last week of January).

There have been related discussions about her values and how those values get used by her and what to do when others challenge your values.

Follow that with "where do your values come from?"  

Note...these are not lectures, they are mostly listening sessions with some questions and summaries from me...and I have to say she is doing really well with them.

I'm not sure why she has chosen to make certain claims about what she has read, but I'll find out as gently as possible.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

It's my "job" to guide my kids in their spirituality.  Guide is different than control, but depending on the level of whackiness,  it may morph into control.  I can't imagine it goes there, especially when my daughter sees the benefits with being straightforward and the benefits/consequences of whacky justifications.

 And..I'm willing to consider the possibility that there is a point of view I've not considered.  She is now accountable to share that and I'm accountable to listen (last week of January).

I agree that it is your job, or at least a promise you have likely made in a dedication or infant baptism ceremony to spiritually guide your children. In many cases 'the lesson' comes way way way before accountability. Can you remember when you were late home after a party or something. Curfew was midnight, it was 2am, you were bricking it all the way home... Mum or Dad was waiting for you when you got in... little was said, eyebrows were raised... nothing needed saying. Here's the quandary... are you forcing/pushing your D to further the lie (digging the hole) by pushing her to justify what she is saying, or is she pushing you to ask for justification of what she says because she keeps digging.

At what point do you let her escape her own lie (Art of War - When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard.)? Confession maybe equivalent to emotional death.

Have you told her that you approve of her having a boyfriend? Have you told her that you're super pleased for her? Maybe you have... but my sense (from myself) is I spend too much time telling my kids what not to or what to do, and not enough time telling that what they are doing is awesome. Having a boyfriend is awesome, it's great, and by the sounds of things she has chosen well (in your eyes).

Enabler

[Cat Familiar]

Even if you intend to do this “gently,” she is still “under oath and being cross examined by opposing counsel.” Not a comfortable situation for a 14 year old.

It sounds like she’s a headstrong young lady and she may think it’s possible to baffle you with BS, but overall this “exercise” will not bring you closer—it will deepen the wedge between you.

[empath]

I've seen all sorts of whackiness in the use of spirituality to control others.  In fact, I'm walking through a process right now to reduce some of that whackiness.

As long as you are coming into the process as a listener, wanting to hear both her thoughts and her heart, and not wanting to prove her wrong/bad/sinful, it will probably go okay. Being the "safe" parent can be challenging when the kids are learning to make their own choices. Guiding but not controlling is a balancing act, for sure.

During the whackiness of church and home, my older daughter decided she was DONE with it all and stopped going to church and then moved in with her boyfriend. Thankfully, they had been together for a very long time. She had talked to me about the lack of integrity that she was seeing in the church leaders (including her dad).

[PeteWitsend]

Can you connect some dots on this?..I'm not seeing this...in the least.

Best,

FF

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I was kinda thinking the same thing as he was, so I wanted to take a stab at it...

but I definitely get the sense that your daughter is intending to assert her independence a bit here, and some of the other things going on may be manifestations of that, rather than root causes.

It might help to give her a little more leeway, or try to make her feel like she's making the decision here for herself.  give her options, explain your reasons for presenting them, etc. 

That way, she'll feel she's working with you, rather than against you. 

[Fian]

I feel that a lot of this is coming from a more laissez-faire American mindset.  Traditionally, parents have had a lot of control over their children's lives, and if they didn't like it, that was their problem.  A modern example, would be Asian families.  In my own personal life, my mom stepped back from my sister because she thought that if she pushed, my sister would have run away or something, so she let her make really bad decisions, and my sister did, and suffered greatly from them.

In FF's case, I think the only Biblical admonition is, Fathers don't exasperate your children.  FF, I think it is a direction that you are heading towards here (I don't think you have crossed that line yet), but it is something to watch out for in your dealings with your daughter.

[Fian]

FF, another thought.  It sounds likely that your daughter won't ever be able to justify her desires and actions.  I think at that point, instead of pushing her even more (exasperating her), you should communicate your mindset to her, i.e., "It appears that the driving reason for you wanting to go to the church is because of this boy.  I am fine with discussing ways for you to spend time with him, but it bothers me when you give a Biblical argument when the real reason is something else.  I can handle something else, but I don't like being told one thing when the real reason is something else."

[Cat Familiar]

"It appears that the driving reason for you wanting to go to the church is because of this boy.  I am fine with discussing ways for you to spend time with him, but it bothers me when you give a Biblical argument...when the real reason (might be) something else."

I like this approach much more than scheduling a meeting weeks in advance. You bring nearly 50 years of wisdom and life experience, while she is only beginning to individuate. You suspect she is lying and now she has two weeks to justify her position, in other words, dig the hole deeper. This does not bode well.

[ct21218]

I don't see you showing your daughter a whole lot of grace.  You are in a position of authority and you seem to be waiting for her to fail at justifying her position.

[formflier]

I have my own approach to laissez faire. 

As you guys know I like structure and boundaries.  So, when operating "within" boundaries I'm very hands off, let them sort things out and learn.

I'm also open to changing the structure and listening to arguments to change things.  Since I spent a lot of time "thinking through" the boundaries and structure in the first place, it seems consistent to put a lot of thought into changes.

Hence the several week period of time, it's actually been going on for a while, we just have an end date indentified now.  It was more vague in the past.  Plus now it's in writing.

I was purposeful in starting out in a friendly manner, let her set the compromise and "didn't get to specific".  This led (as teenage things do) to confusion and perhaps some light drama.  Let's say there were 3 or 4 instances of confusion and 100% of them "went in her favor" (which I allowed but clear that we were "deciding in her favor")

The last one we had a side talk.  "You know D14, when it comes to recalling conversations I find it interesting that the confusion about what was said has all "gone in your favor" and "not how Daddy remembers it".  So I gave her the choice, if you let this one slide and go with how I remember we can keep this "verbal", or from now on I'll send you a summary of our conversation and any agreements to "make sure we are on the same page".

She thought it wiser to write stuff down...so we are from here on out. 

One of the things we "wrote down" is that the last week of January, we'll have several dinners and times together to talk and share what we've both learned over the past while of focused prayer and Bible reading.

Regarding "exasperating" children.  If a child makes and argument that (this book says x) and a parent says "Oh..that's interesting, let's read it together."  And the child becomes exasperated that the book no longer says what they recall it saying...well...that's life (not a father exasperating them).

I should say that this started off with an incredibly well written letter and a very thoughtful letter about her desires.  My P commented that this was unusually "mature" for a 14 year old to be able to express herself.

Much of her reasoning is "I'm almost an adult and should be treated like one...".  So...I said "D14...I should expect you to act as an adult as well..right?"  To which she agreed.

We all know there will be booboos in this process, which I hope to guide her through.

And..I don't want to prejudge how she will read and see the scripture.  (this is really my main objective, because it will likely help me understand better "where her heart is")

I'm running out of time, there are many comments I haven't been able to address yet.

As of yet, I've been over 90% listening.  I have let her know areas of scripture I expect her to read and that I'm interested in her thoughts on that (during our future discussions).  I haven't suggested at all "how she should see it".

Back later,

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

I will just add that the biggest blowup I had with my father was when I was 15, and it involved what I was and was not allowed to do with a boy (church attendance was part of it).

Youth ministers who I thought I could trust did not hold confidentiality, and I lost trust in them.

I was held accountable, but much long-term damage was done.

In the end, I simply went underground, not able to be my true self in the context of that church or my family. I left home and married too soon, which was another big mistake.

[formflier]

I will just add that the biggest blowup I had with my father was when I was 15, and it involved what I was and was not allowed to do with a boy (church attendance was part of it).

Can you share more details?

D14 knows the score on boys and her "access" to them for the next several years.  No surprises.

What "part" of the blowup belonged to your Dad and what part belonged to you?  Did you Dad give you choices to essentially get the same thing on a different path, perhaps slightly different path?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I don't see you showing your daughter a whole lot of grace. 

What would you suggest grace look like in this situation?

You are in a position of authority and you seem to be waiting for her to fail at justifying her position.

I am in a position of authority and I'm waiting to hear what she has to say.  I certainly won't say I haven't "prejudged" at all the outcome since I'm generally and in many cases specifically quite specifically familiar with applicable scripture.

So..may attitude is "that's going to be a tough argument to make"...but I'm certainly willing to listen and in some cases might even nudge her in the right direction if she seems to be close. 

The big question that she is wrestling with is not just with me, it's with God.  (wrestling with God's word is a good thing!  You tend to sort out your values that way.)

D14, what role has God placed you in at the moment?

D14, what role has God placed Daddy in at the moment?

D14, since you know Daddy believes he should do his best to steward what God has given him and doing that is really really important to Daddy's values (a core value).  If perhaps in your studying you don't find a clear answer that this is solely your decision, then it would seem you would need to make a persuasive Biblical argument that in this particular (or even more generally) situation, it would be wise for Daddy to step back from his role.

Basically, I want her to "put herself in her shoes" and see where that takes her.  Then..."put herself in my shoes" and perhaps develop some empathy/understanding of how "the world" might look from my point of view.

In the end of this, regardless of the "final decision" she will have a deeper understanding of quite a lot of important scripture.

Anyway, I'll be back later to add more.

Best,

FF

[empath]

Do you have scriptures that justify your position of requiring D14 to worship with your family?

The only ones that I'm aware of are about submitting to those in authority - basically because I said so. That's not going to cut it with a D14 who thinks she should be treated as an adult.

I should also say that I started attending church without my parents around 13 or 14. They were dissatisfied with the church options that were in our city, and I had a friend who invited me to join her. It was part of being responsible for my own faith decisions.

[GaGrl]

Much of what preceded my age 15 crisis had been a number of years of invalidation. Growing up in the 60s, I was in the thick of the civil rights movement in the South. Combined with a fundamentalist church up-bringing, it made for a great deal of "Oh, you don't really believe that," and being told by my government leaders, my religious leaders, and educational leaders things that I knew in my heart were wrong. (Fortunately, my father had some progressive views and was clear that it an African-American family wanted to join our church but was denied, we would leave that church. )

The conflict with my dad was several fold. All my privileges were age based--make-up, group dating, double-dating, single-dating-- rather than maturity or readiness based. I resented that. So...lots of rules, very black/white and authoritarian. Then with my first really serious emotional relationship, I wanted to attend his church--he was U.M.C. and my family was Southern Baptist. I was much more comfortable with the Wesleyan theology (plus my grandfather's family had been U.M.C. so I didn't see it as a big deal.

I didn't get a choice on Sunday morning services. I was allowed to attend MYF on Sunday evenings.

The conflict came from my pushing and pushing, disagreements between my parents on allowing dating acivities, hearing the word "divorce" mentioned, venting and confiding to my youth leaders, who then betrayed confidences...all culminating in my having suicide ideation (only time in my life) .

Rather than the support I needed at the time, my father blew up (very low-key and controlled man but you wanted to be 1000 miles away the few times he lost his temper). His anger was focused on some of my venting to the youth leaders--he couldn't see past the rules to see me.

Bottom line-- I was a teen girl operating on pure emotion and hormones, and my father was dealing with me on his version of logic and religiousity. It was not good.

[ct21218]

From my perspective it seems like you are trying to get her to provide a biblical example when you know one doesn't exist.  It seems dishonest to me if you know that's not what it's about.  If it were me (and I do not have kids so take this with a grain of salt), I would show my hand and ask her if it's really about the boy.  Hopefully she would feel that she could be honest with you and perhaps you could work out a compromise on attending both.

It appears that you are trying to back her until a corner with the bible.

[formflier]

From my perspective it seems like you are trying to get her to provide a biblical example when you know one doesn't exist. 

I'm certainly doubtful that she can make a persuasive argument based on scripture.  I'm very interested how she goes about it, or tries to go about it...because that will tell me a lot more about "where her heart is" or "how she interprets" scripture.

This is not a "thou shall or thou shalt not" type of thing (at least the scriptures I have in mind).

It seems dishonest to me if you know that's not what it's about.

Well, I certainly have my suspicions and I will from time to time give her some "off ramps" that she can use to clarify what it's really about.  But that's up to her to clarify "what it's about".

Scripture is pretty solid about admonitions to not "mind read".

It appears that you are trying to back her until a corner with the bible.

I'm not the one that brought it up, she did.  I'm not sure I would be comfortable saying definitely she is trying to back me into a corner with the Bible, but she is claiming she is "led" to do this based on what she has read.

So...I'll listen.



Best,

FF

[formflier]

Several interesting thoughts here.  GaGrl, thanks for sharing.

  (Fortunately, my father had some progressive views and was clear that it an African-American family wanted to join our church but was denied, we would leave that church. )

I am generally most comfortable as a conservative member of a moderate church.  I've been in several "fundamentalist churches" and ended up feeling "like a flaming liberal", even though I was fine with "literal interpretation". 

Anyway, I grew up in the South and my "home church" was a bit of an outcast/oddball.  The church is between 150 and 200 years old and they have records of African-American members in the late 1800s. 

The conflict with my dad was several fold. All my privileges were age based--make-up, group dating, double-dating, single-dating-- rather than maturity or readiness based. I resented that.

I didn't get a choice on Sunday morning services. I was allowed to attend MYF on Sunday evenings.

We generally go with age targets although we do evaluate maturity.  Our general "standard" is"

If you are able to deal with NOT having "X" in a mature way, then it's likely you are ready to have "X".
 

Bottom line-- I was a teen girl operating on pure emotion and hormones, and my father was dealing with me on his version of logic and religiousity. It was not good.

My observation is that my girl is mostly hormones and emotion and is struggling (trying) to make rational arguments.  Much of my stance on this is designed to help her "sharpen her rational tool".

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Do you have scriptures that justify your position of requiring D14 to worship with your family?

The only ones that I'm aware of are about submitting to those in authority - basically because I said so. That's not going to cut it with a D14 who thinks she should be treated as an adult.
 

I suppose I can see this point of view.

The way I see it is "it's because God said so".

If I believe that each child is precious and God chooses to give them life and parents.

If I believe that God was sovereign and wise in his choice of what family he decided to put D14 in .

If I believe that God is going to hold me accountable for stewardship of what he has placed in my care.

Then I really believe the "argument" is more about D14 showing me how it's OK to step back from what God has entrusted to me.

Basically there are Biblical "roles" that people fulfill at different stages of their life. 

Earlier there was talk about "provoking".  If you keep reading that verse it goes on to say "bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord"   Ephesians 6:4

I don't think it was a mistake it was written that way.  Doesn't really say "let them bring themselves up".

Also, if we think there is "faulty Biblical reasoning" going on or using scripture "out of context", that's something Christians should be "fearful" of doing and I would be remiss to not help my daughter evaluate her use of scripture.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

FF, this is the ultimate in approaches that push young women to rebel against their fathers.


and right into the arms of the boyfriend...

So...if she rebels she will run to the arms of this boy and potentially the other church.

So...since she wants to go to the other church and be with this boy and I don't want her to rebel, I should let her go to the other church and be with the boy?

Umm...? 

I certainly don't want to "drive her to rebel", so I am really interested in connecting some dots on how this leads to rebellion.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Ok..if someone has raised a point or a suggestion and I haven't responded, please let me know.

I think I'm all caught up...but I may have missed something.

Best,

FF

[twocrazycats]

Hi Formflier, your daughter reminds me very much of my daughter when she was 14. She is 19 now and has always been very strong-willed. When she was 14, she had a boyfriend whose family was very religious. They belonged to a Protestant church and were involved in a lot of activities at the church. We are Catholic, and my daughter had never been very religious or interested in religion at all. Well, when she was seeing that boyfriend, all of a sudden she decided she wanted to volunteer at our church, she also wanted to get involved in youth activities there. In addition, she wanted to get involved in her boyfriend's church. She talked a lot about religion. She also talked a lot about certain football teams (who happened to be the boyfriend's favorites) and other sports teams, which I also found out were ones he liked. She also decided she wanted to start learning dance, and wanted to become good at it. (Not easy when you start at 14.) It turned out the boyfriend's sister was very involved in dance. When my daughter finally broke up with the boyfriend two years later, she also lost interest in religion, the sports teams and dance.

I'm just expressing the possibility that maybe your daughter is interested in the other church because the boyfriend's family is involved in it. But not specifically because he's there, more because his interest has become her interest. Fourteen is an age when they are trying things out to see what they like. And the interests of friends and especially boyfriends/girlfriends are often things to try out. It's very possible that what she feels so strongly about now is not what she'll choose for the rest of her life.

I think it's great that you are getting her to think out her reasoning regarding her choices. And especially great that you are mostly listening. It's a skill that will help her in many areas of life.
2CrazyCats

[empath]

Then I really believe the "argument" is more about D14 showing me how it's OK to step back from what God has entrusted to me.

Basically there are Biblical "roles" that people fulfill at different stages of their life.

As I understand, God has placed you in authority over d14, so you are accountable to God for how you steward her faith. I agree with that.

My thoughts are informed by watching my h's FOO and the decisions that I've made with my own kids. My FIL is/was very involved in pastoral and teaching ministries of his baptist denomination and required the whole family to worship together. He did the devotions and bible studies. H says he felt invalidated by his parents approach to parenting - showing them what the bible says and that was the end of the discussion. As adults, my BIL and his kids don't attend church; a constant source of concern for his parents. BIL is an alcoholic, had an affair and divorced; his oldest son divorced within a few months of getting married. H struggles with his faith, too, because of his parents' decisions and influences.

When my son was s15, we changed churches after attending one for about 3 years. S15 wanted to continue to be with his friends at our former church rather than starting over with the new group of folks. I also knew from my studies of both child development and spiritual development that he was at a stage where he needed to make the faith his own. He attended the youth group at our former church, with his friends, and I volunteered to help with the group. After high school, he went off to college and attended a local church and small group. He is now married and has a little girl; they are attending a church that works for them.

As I said, I agree that parents are to steward their children's faith. That means as they get older, they are able and need to take more responsibility for it as a transitional phase. They need to make connections with others - both peers and older adults (other than their parents), for the long-term stability of their faith. 

[Notwendy]

My observation is that my girl is mostly hormones and emotion and is struggling (trying) to make rational arguments.  Much of my stance on this is designed to help her "sharpen her rational tool".


I think this goes with my comment about the girl being driven to rebel and into the boys' arms.

I am not talking about being too permissive. It's about recognizing where she is emotionally and developmentally. Twocrazycats described this well. One developmental task of adolescence is forming autonomy and their own self concept. Teens don't know who they are. They assert that they are not their parents but sometimes their quest for being "not my parent" may mean to them "doing something different". For teens, it may mean dressing their own way, wearing their hair how they want it, even if their parents don't like it.

Understanding this doesn't mean we need to be permissive. I do think it means understanding they need some space to work out their autonomy task and so we pick our battles. Maybe we don't like the hairstyle,  but allow them to do it. But they need boundaries too. So compromise on hairstyle but insist on curfew.

The other part of figuring out who they are can involve trying out different personas. So as crazycat wrote- they may take up an interest because someone they like has that interest. But in time, they may also decide- " this isn't me" and then lose that interest. This is an important part of deciding who they are- and it's boundary development too- "what is me, what isn't me". Still, they need safety boundaries. It may be OK to take up dance, dress in odd clothing, listen to certain kinds of music, but it isn't OK to drink, not do your homework, not do your chores.

While you may want to help your D practice her rational side, by nature, how she feels about the boy right now isn't rational. Also, her rational tool isn't mature yet at 14. As parents, we still have authority over our kids at this age, but the truth is, we have no control over their feelings. While there may be a BPD- ish aspect to teen behavior, being emotional and irrational can be a normal developmental stage that she will hopefully outgrow. She still needs you, and loves you. You have considerable leverage with that. But the boy feelings may be overwhelming. My concern about your approach was similar to the other post- are you backing her into a corner with your superior logic and Biblical skills, and if she's in the corner, she will run to the boy for consolation. You can't change her feelings for the boy. But you don't want her to be in a situation where she feels cornered.

Our task as parents isn't easy. Too permissiveness isn't the goal but we can't be too controlling either. Our teens have some autonomy tasks to do- how can we give them the space to do this while having appropriate boundaries? To make this tougher, there's a range- some teens mature faster than others, some are more or less compliant.

Developmentally, their concept of God isn't fully formed yet. Teens begin to get the capacity for abstract thinking at about your D's age. Before that, God is some magic man in the sky to a child. Now they are beginning to grasp an more abstract concept. For each person, this relationship is personal. You can guide her but you can't determine this for her. Maybe she needs to "try on" some ideas and maybe she's "trying on" what is the boy's preference. This can feel like shaky ground to a parent- you don't want the child to be influenced by some really bad ideas, but again - what is "safe" exploration to you?

Basically, rather than try to bring your child to your level of thinking when she isn't developmentally capable of it, I'm suggesting you approach her with understanding of where she is at emotionally and developmentally, and then come up with a way to allow her to explore her autonomy safely- while enforcing the boundaries that are important to you. Rather than get into a logical Biblical discussion with her, that you will inevitably have the upper hand with, perhaps listen to her feelings and decide if you are willing to make some concessions or not and discuss some ideas that might possibly work in this situation.

[formflier]

 It's about recognizing where she is emotionally and developmentally.

Basically, rather than try to bring your child to your level of thinking when she isn't developmentally capable of it, I'm suggesting you approach her with understanding of where she is at emotionally and developmentally, and then come up with a way to allow her to explore her autonomy safely- while enforcing the boundaries that are important to you.  

So...how do I "recognize" this without going through this process and having these conversations?  Wouldn't it be better to actually have the conversations and get a more accurate view of where is really at, vice deciding she can't have a logical/rational conversation..and skipping it altogether?

We seem to be in agreement that emotions are huge and logic is low.  That's also scientifically accurate (brain development) as well.  

At what age would you suggest it's permissible to have a logical/rational conversation with a teen girl, or at least allow them to make their best effort at it..and perhaps coach them to be able to do it better?


Best,

FF

 
 
 
 


  

[Cat Familiar]

FF, I think the replies you’re receiving from female members center around entrapment. You obviously can “outgun” your daughter both logically and knowledgeably.

What we notice, having been 14 year old girls in the past, is that this is likely to feel like a confrontation to your daughter, and will possibly end with her feeling shamed or discredited.

Rebellious teenage daughters become very sensitized to male privilege, whether it is from their brothers, their teachers, their ministers, or their fathers.

By framing this discussion as her need to demonstrate why you shouldn’t have the final word on where she worships, instead of being honest and addressing your suspicion that she’s not being candid and that the real reason for her attendance there is due to her boyfriend, you are also being dishonest.

It sounds like she is a smart girl and likely to see through the subterfuge you’re creating.

[empath]

My h describes these kinds of discussions with his dad as dad "using his intelligence as a weapon." Lots of invalidation of the underlying thoughts and feelings as h was to present a logical, biblical case which could not measure up.

FF, does d14 know that you have been expelled from the church in question? What do the kids know as the reasons you are searching for a new church?

There's a lot more going on than just a teen wanting to exercise autonomy or having a boyfriend.

It's very painful to be cast out of a church - it's also painful for others who are affected. Sorting It all out takes time and listening.

[formflier]

No, D14 doesn't know details.  One of the reasons I'm building time into this is so I can be wise and think through what I am or am not willing to disclose.

A large part of her reasoning is that the church hasn't "been mean" to her or "said anything unbiblical" to her, so it shouldn't affect her life at all.

I've asked her the question and it's something she is thinking about...does it matter if you personally experience it (as in she actually hears it with her own ears)

To be clear, I have broadly addressed my suspicion this is about people and not about the church.  She has explicitly denied that in person and in writing..several times. 

So...I will leave this "exit ramp" open if she wants to take it, but I don't have much more ammo to expend there.

My guess is that I will "use that" when/if it becomes obvious that "her way" may not be working or may not be supported.

Best,

FF

[once removed]

whats your wifes take?

[Notwendy]

At what age would you suggest it's permissible to have a logical/rational conversation with a teen girl

25?


Kidding aside, I think my issue was more about your approach to this. "Sharpening" the logic tool may actually feel controlling and invalidating. She needs to also be able to develop that tool herself. It's a natural developmental task. You don't need to validate the invalid but to her, her feelings are real, her logic makes sense- at the level of a 14 year old. Just like you don't think about things now like you did at 14, neither will she - but some of that is learning and also learning from errors. I think our jobs as parents are to protect our kids from the "big errors" while allowing them to learn and work things out for themselves at their level.

It's actually you that has the issue with the church, and it's a personal one. If she's sitting in a pew with a crowd on Sunday, singing hymns and listening to a sermon- how much harm is this really? Also how much is she absorbing? I don't know the church so I can't say.

She's thinking like a 14 year old. You have the issue with the church, not her, and she's not you. Teens are trying to be "not you". IMHO, she's picked a  safe way in the grand scheme of things to assert her "not you" by going to this church. I'm not for complete permissiveness but I do think teens need some safe wiggle room to be "not their parents" as part of attaining autonomy. If not this, what kind of wiggle room can you allow her?