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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: 14 year old daughter not wanting to worship with family Part 5  (Read 733 times)
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« on: January 14, 2020, 08:19:03 AM »

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342305.30

So, it's hard to convey what these conversations are like.  Active listening.  Reflecting back.  How would you apply xyz to abc?

Very very little of it is "you should believe"..in fact that wasn't spoken last night.  

I also gave her some off ramps and continue to plant the seed that sometimes you say things/write things and then after reflection and more thought you realize it could be said better or taken the wrong way.

For instance we spent a lot of time talking about relationships between the disciples and how they reacted to disciples openly asking for special privilege.  We talked about how God seems to be suggesting are good ways to go about relationships and ways that God would like to improve.

back to FF thinking

While this is mostly about D14, FF is aware of setting precedent.  I will also tell you that D14 "doing her own thing" has caused a low level commotion and some questions from her brothers and sisters.

On the one hand as a parenting style we are open that "we just don't do fair" (because life isn't), yet we don't want to be blatant and in your face about it, so precedent does matter.

There was a question about what age and it's really not an age thing.  

If you are living in my household, household rules apply.  I'm reluctant to provide incentives for independence, while allowing them to continue to live here.  Yes older ones get more privileges and freedom.

I have three kids living outside the house now.  From time to time I'll have a conversation with them about church stuff.

I think there are still unaddressed things, I'll be back later.

Best,

FF




« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 03:01:48 PM by Cat Familiar » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2020, 08:23:07 AM »

Excerpt
I don't know.  Offhand, I would say that her world of privilege would start to shrink

The basic approach in my family is that you have responsibilities and privileges.  They are tied together.

At the most basic level, if you get your stuff done...you get to play.  If you don't...no fun.

Is Church a chore or is it to be enjoyed?

I personally have never seen Church or faith as work or a responsibility, I've never been taught this way. Sunday school was made fun and enjoyable by cutting out and colouring in. Adult church is made interesting with song and engaging biblical teaching. I couldn't rationalise why I might penalise my children for not wanting to appreciate a faith I have... I could take it one step further, I could not penalise my children for something that can only be considered to be (at best) my own personal failings as a parent at selling faith.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 03:01:32 PM by Cat Familiar » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2020, 08:51:41 AM »

Is Church a chore or is it to be enjoyed?
 

It can be both and many more things.  I would say it's an act of worship and of giving thanks, yet it's so much more.

I'm certain there have been and will be times where it feels like a chore and I hope there are many more times it is enjoyable.

As to "not wanting".  At least in my family, there is a massive difference in "your feelings" and what you do.  If it goes on for a long time that you feel one way yet are doing something else, then there are certainly things to pay attention to there.

I put it in a long string of things that kids "don't want" to do, but they "are made to".


Best,

FF
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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2020, 08:59:53 AM »

If you were forced to eat doughnuts every day do you think you would learn to love doughnuts or hate them... and when you were no longer forced to eat doughnuts do you think you'd eat another doughnut ever?
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2020, 09:24:02 AM »

If you were forced to eat doughnuts every day do you think you would learn to love doughnuts or hate them... and when you were no longer forced to eat doughnuts do you think you'd eat another doughnut ever?

It really depends.  Many foods our children were "forced" to eat have ended up being some of their favorites and some of the foods they avoid (now that they have choices).

What they have learned is that as an act of respect and thanks for those that provide for you, you have a responsibility to say and do things that show them respect and thanks.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2020, 02:52:54 PM »

Would you be okay with d14 attending church with the boy if she were able to discuss what she learned there with you?

Excerpt
So for any Christian that wants a "well run family", following the example of how a pastor should run their home would seems wise.

There are sometimes great differences of opinions about the methods that a pastor should use in running his home (or his church). Some pastors use manipulation and coercion to keep the family in line which is also applied to the church context. I've been told by a pastor that I needed to maintain an image that was not who I was as a leader. I have a number of friends who are either separated or divorced from their husbands who are pastors due to the manipulation and coercion, and I have personally experienced it myself and witnessed it in other pastors and churches.

The model that Jesus presented was that he didn't use his status to control people; he emptied himself of that and became a servant.
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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2020, 03:19:43 PM »

So what I'm getting from this discussion is that there's been a trial period where your daughter has been permitted every other week to go to the previous church where her boyfriend worships.

You've inquired about the sermon and she apparently hasn't retained much information about what was taught, or she hasn't been interested in sharing what she knows, or possibly she wasn't in attendance.

You are concerned about her being influenced by people in that church who you do not trust, nor respect, nor feel they embrace the sanctity of the Gospel as you believe it.

You feel entrusted to safeguard her religious training and you feel that you'd be remiss by letting her attend the church your family previously worshiped at.

She, on the other hand, is feeling restricted by your decision to change churches and would prefer to worship where her boyfriend and other friends attend. She wants to assert her preference as she feels she is becoming an adult and is called to participate at her previous church, regardless of the conflict you had there.

You believe her desire to participate there is due to having a crush on a boy who attends there and that she is dressing up her "need" with spiritual falderal. You believe that by asking her to justify her choice based on Biblical passages that she will be unable to do so adequately and that by demonstrating your knowledge of passages relating to fathers shepherding their children, the matter will be settled.

Not so fast, Dad. You are not taking into account the life and death feelings of a teenaged girl's first crush. Literature abounds with stories of daughters who've forsaken families and religion to pursue the lover of their dreams.

And you know, from participating here that feelings often trump facts. For a young girl, whose intellect is developing, these emotions are overpowering and by far are more important than any logical argument you can make.

Is this the hill you want your relationship with her to die on? You may think I'm being overdramatic, but this situation could seriously undermine your parent/child relationship in the future. You may win this battle, lose her respect, and she may be constantly looking for ways to undermine your authority in the future. I'm certain the younger children in your family will take notice.
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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2020, 03:29:18 PM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06o-EYH9svs
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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2020, 08:44:19 AM »

she may be constantly looking for ways to undermine your authority in the future. I'm certain the younger children in your family will take notice.

This is the heart of my concern.

Setting a precedent that what parents say or what agreements have been drawn up is a bad...bad precedent to set and will set her up for very bad relationship skills.

So...our written agreement for this morning was this (we created this together and she said she is in full agreement)


Excerpt
Due to confusion/miscommunication about where D14 would attend church this morning (01/05/2020), going forward any and all agreements/understandings about D14 attending church will be in writing.

Axiom 1:  No verbal understandings will override what’s written down here, all verbal understandings are to be codified in writing in this document.

Axiom 2:  Our family is searching for a new church home and we value, desire and expect D14's input about what she has learned, seen and experienced in these other churches.

Axiom 3:  D14 and Daddy have a disagreement about the Biblical wisdom of D14 deciding alone to attend church separately from her family.  

Axiom 4:  D14 and Daddy have discussed our points of view with a pastor who advised much prayer, Bible reading and thought prior to any “final” decisions.  D14 and Daddy agree this is a wise course.

Axiom 5:  Since D14 has been thinking about separate church attendance for many months and Daddy has only been considering this for a matter of weeks, we both believe it wise to have a temporary understanding in place to guide us to a place where we can each share our Biblically informed wisdom with each other.

Axiom 6: Neither D14 nor Daddy will prejudge what the other may or may not learn and share during our period of prayer and reflection.


This agreement covers the next 3 Sundays (1/12,1/19,1/26)

1/12 Church with family

1/19 D14 may attend "other church" (church name was there)

1/26 Church with family

1/26 This and any/all prior agreements are over.  Daddy and D14 will have a number of meetings during this week to learn from each other how understand the Biblical wisdom they have gained during this period of prayer, reading and reflection.  Daddy will create a separate written guide for questions that can guide his and D14’s study.


D14 told FFw (didn't speak to me) that since our agreement ended this day she was able to go to the church she wants, instead of going to church with family.  She apparently got up extra early so she could leave without seeing me, left her phone so she can't be contacted.

My guess is that she will "forget" that our family guidance that follows the Biblical guidance that scripture doesn't invalidate itself and in a similar fashion to the way scripture should be interpreted (that it's all true, vice using some scripture to say other scripture isn't true) agreements with other people (in and out of the family) should be interpreted so that "everything comes true", vice trying to play the agreement against itself.

Such as "oh you failed to communicate our agreement was over after attending church together as a family, therefore I get to skip the part about attending church with her family and say the agreement is over, therefore I get to go where ever I want.

I've been sparing with talk of church, agreements and such and have been focused on my relationship with her, spending lots of time with her at horses (including all day yesterday), yet she didn't see the need to mention this to me, but she does mention it to FFw (who was not part of these discussions).

A big part of this is to understand where her heart is and her heart appears to be in a place where "bending the truth" and deception is the "appropriate tool to use".  

That's not a good place.

I'm lucky that I was able to finally get some sleep last night and feel like I'm in a pretty good place to work through some lovely "teenage logic".

Uggg.  

Please pray for wisdom for me and to not get drawn into side issues...smoke and mirrors and all that.

Best,

FF











« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 08:50:29 AM by formflier » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2020, 12:21:39 PM »

Did I read this right?

Your 14 year old daughter got up early, left the house, and didn't take her phone?

Woah.

Let's put the church thing aside.

Since when it is OK for a 14 year old to just get up, leave the house without speaking to any adults, and not take the phone.

Not to make you worry- but she could be anywhere.

How old is this boy? Can he drive?

This violates a few rules in my house. First of all - before my kids went out at 14- they had to tell me. Because they can't get there on their own. Someone is driving them. I need to know who that person is, where they are, when they are coming back and how to reach them.

east your D needs to carry her phone so she can be reached and tell you where she is going and when she's coming back.   
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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2020, 01:23:38 PM »

Your agreement in writing clearly listed three dates with which church would be attended on each date. For your D14 to abrogate the 1/26 days with no discussion with you is concerning. For her to leave the house in the way she did is doubly concerning.

Forget church attendance as the primary issue here. You have a budding wild child who is willing to engage in deception to avoid the consequences of her decisions and actions. This is an integrity matter.

Every child is different. This daughter definitely is different from the older children you've launched.

Perhaps the focus needs to be on launching her over the next few years, with a more holistic approach than just the focus on church attendance.
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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2020, 03:02:02 PM »


You guys read this right and you both are in agreement with my P that church attendance is no longer the primary issue here.

I had a conversation with P and also a conversation with my wife.

At some point yesterday evening my wife mentioned to D14 that there was a special "womens program" this morning at 830 at our new church.  Near as I can figure D14 did not seek out Mom first, it was Mom giving D14 a heads up that they would be leaving extra early.

D14 told Mom that the agreement was "over" and she could go anywhere she wanted to church (or words to that effect).  Mom challenged her that since she went to the other church last weekend, it was her turn to go with us this weekend.  "Nope..agreement is over" so Mom gave her so rope and said "If you are sure"  D14 was sure.

Going forward, I'll be asking FFw to say "You need to ask your Father about that."  Just as I wouldn't want to speak for my wife, especially about a conversation I wasn't involved in.

Anyway, D14 has been given two papers over the past few weeks.  I asked her if she was going to be able to be responsible and keep up with them...she said yes. 

Her story is that she "lost" the agreement I provided to you guys and the only paper she can find was the one where I explained to her my goal and my "job" was to guide her into becoming the kind of adult in that paper (I'll post it soon).

Here is the thing...her words and the way she holds herself, she knows she has been "busted". 

She claims it's not her being "rebellious" that she's "just forgetful".  I said I'd consider that and I would expect her to understand if that is the case it's not me punishing her, but "helping her not forget" for any changes that get made to her schedule/life.  (lots of silence after that)

P and I had a debate about how we (I) should handle the upcoming week.  We had planned to meet and talk several times and I expected to give her several "writing assignments" (she has written a well thought out letter about this issue a long time ago, she is a wonderful writer (well advanced from a "normal 14 year old").

Anyway, the debate is do I put "final judgment" about her abrogation on hold until after this week, or do I deal with abrogation now and put our talks on hold.

Essentially either way it will "look like" she is grounded, so she has plenty of time to consider her thoughts and spend time talking with me.

Well..here is the thing.  I set out to "find out about her heart" and I'm pretty sure I have a good picture of it now (and it's worse that I worried about finding)

So I don't want to be rash, but her life going forward will look very different than the past few months.

We also just got some grades that are concerning and indicate she hasn't been spending proper time on that (and too much with friends and social things).

As you can probably tell, I'm still turning this over in my head.  I appreciate all your thoughts and perspectives.

Best,

FF

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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2020, 03:07:09 PM »


How old is this boy? Can he drive?
 

14, no he can't drive.  (or maybe 14, they are in the same grade).  I need to verify age, definitely in same grade and classes.

The church she wants to attend is walking distance and it's safe to walk.  We purchased this house with attending that church in mind (so I'm really disappointed in how things turned out).  New churches require driving.

She left the house with two of her 14 year old friends.  

She is aware that she is supposed to take her phone when she goes out.  That's why we have it.  I've not addressed that detail yet.  So, she has walked to church and friends houses a lot, but she usually assures me "I've got my phone".  If I don't hear that...I remind.  They also have battery packs they can take "so their battery doesn't run out".

Sadly, it's another detail that indicates she was thoughtful about how she planned out her deception/abrogation of agreement.

I'm really hoping others can talk me down from that view...but I'm struggling to imagine how it can be anything else.

If I've left any questions unanswered.  Let me know.  Not my intention to skip anything.

I'm in the waiting room at doctor with D6.  (walk in clinic)

Best,

FF
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2020, 03:13:29 PM »


The written list below is the one "she can find".  This was used so she could understand "what my target is" and "why Mommy and Daddy do the things they do".

Best,

FF

Excerpt
D14 As An Adult

Adults who successfully meet the demands of life have the following qualities:

Relational, not alienated. They can connect emotionally with others and have a support system of healthy people. They know when to ask for help. They can be vulnerable and open. And they can love others back, deeply and generously, in an unconditional way.

Responsible, not immature. They take ownership of their life, behavior, and attitudes, and do something good with them. They shoulder what is theirs to shoulder. They follow through. They can be relied on.

Self-controlled, not impulsive
. Responsible adults make decisions based on their deliberate judgments rather than their impulses. They refrain from risky behaviors. While they can be fun and spontaneous, they make their choices count.


Values-based, not peer-driven
. They have a set of standards, ethics, and beliefs that are true and transcendent. They have worked out their values and follow them. Neither their peers nor the culture owns them. They are their own person.

Autonomous, not dependent. They are able to live freely and on their own. They do not need anyone else to carry them emotionally or financially. They like making their own decisions, solving their own problems, and setting their own goals.

Focused, not lost. They have found and developed their talents, passions, and gifts. They know what they want to do and what contribution they want to make with their life. They are actively engaged in that process.

Spiritual, not separated from God. They have found transcendence by learning to love, follow, and obey the Lord. They humbly trust him to take care of them, and they go to him as the source of all good things for life.
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2020, 03:30:29 PM »

I don't know anything about parenting. I know a bit about animal training. And I was a "wild child" but not until I turned 18, so not so much of a child, but I was way immature for my age.

I read these agreements you made with your daughter with my "teenage wild child" cap on and here's how I see them.

"Blah, blah, blah, yeah whatever."

The D14 as an adult--"Of course I can do all that."

You're looking for introspection and commitment to agreed principles. She's looking to do the least possible to get you off her case.

With my "animal trainer" cap on, I'd suggest making the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy.
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2020, 04:37:03 PM »

As a parent of a d15, I would consider intentionally leaving the house without permission and leaving the phone at home a serious violation. I have had discussions with my d15 about it, too, because we had a really good recent experience watching friends go through some difficulties related to teens running away from home.

My take is that they get freedom if they abide by the rules of safety - even adults sometimes are required or choose to have their phones with them for safety reasons. Safety violations get pushed to the top of the list of priorities.
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2020, 09:20:19 PM »


With my "animal trainer" cap on, I'd suggest making the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy.

I had much the same thoughts.  

Plus, if I'm looking for introspection, she needs quiet time to do that.

Putting this out there so I don't "miss anything".  D14 is not a wild child, she is very social and very verbal (she can wear me out talking).  

She will "feel" restrictions to her friends and at least in the past has worked to gain the privileges she has now (obviously we've gone too far)

She has had one difficult relationship with a girl.  They got too close and the girl tried some manipulative stuff on her (almost like gaslighting) so we established some distance.  Things seemed to repair and they got closer, then out of nowhere  they had a loud dispute in the lunchroom at school and the girl punched her in the face.  D14 stormed about, flipped her off...but didn't hit her back.

The girl was suspended for a while from school and D14 was praised for her restraint and for telling the truth because her story matched the video tape.  Apparently the other girls story didn't match, although she eventually confessed.

D14 made some effort to get closer to her again and start having the girl over and FFw and I haven't allowed it.  Saying the "distance" in that relationship might need to be permanent.  We are pretty sure the girl has taken some minor things of D14s (like permanently borrowed) and that was what the loud argument was about.

D14 was wanting to "reconnect" with the girl, even though the status of the "stuff" was never solved.

Not sure if that is involved here or not...but that's the only other weird thing going on with D14.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2020, 09:39:50 PM »


It's been a busy evening with other matters.  I wrote the above post earlier while in a waiting room for walk in, but didn't get it posted until much later.

Luckily I have session reschedule with my P for tomorrow morning (vice normal time later in the week) and I've obviously been thinking about this a lot.

This is twice now I have gotten up and looked for D14 only to find her missing.

1st time she left me a very thoughtful letter explaining she was going to church on her own and that sort of started this entire saga.
 
2nd time was this morning. 

So, twice in two months she knew exactly where her parents expected her to be, yet too matters into her own hand to do her own thing.  I obviously didn't catch her attention or correct it the first time.

FFw leaned heavily on "go easy on her" and frankly has the same attitude now.  FFw "doesn't want us to cause her to rebel" or variations on that reasoning. 

In fact FFw took her out to the movies this evening, over my objections...blah blah blah, we've been planning it for a while and "it's not that big of a deal".

Anyway...the safety part of this has concerned me the more I thought about it.

I can't stop her from "rebelling" or doing this in the future, but I can set the communication so the ONLY explanation for this in the future is a willful decision to go outside the rules of the household about safety.

I do have lots of parenting experience.  D14 is my 5th child.  But...this is my first time turning this over in my head that twice in 2 months the same thing has been willfully done.

Sure..stuff has come up with other kids, a correction was given and it stuck.

The biggest safety issue we have dealt with prior to this was a young child that "hid" in the barn even when he heard us calling for him.  We were worried he feel in the river at our farm and literally were close to calling the authorities when he was discovered in a hay loft..hiding.

Again...that happened once and every kid since then knows that "hiding" from Mom and Dad...isn't a good thing.

A few months ago I would have said she was a very advanced child for her age.  She is far far better a horse trainer at 14 than her older sister was.  Of course she has the benefit of a D23 that has a degree in natural horsemanship.  She is in advanced classes.  Accomplished musician (singer, piano and saxaphone).  Is a really likable girl to be around...or was.

My guess is she thinks she is an adult and should be able to do this stuff on her own, because she is so advanced.

I can't remember anything "defiant" in her character prior to this. 

As opposed to D9 who is "defiant" through and through in her character and I've had to alter parenting to nudge her back into line (don't get in power struggles).

So, it would be accurate to say this massive change has come on in the past several months.

Uggg...lots to think about.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2020, 11:55:16 PM »

Excerpt
So, it would be accurate to say this massive change has come on in the past several months.

When would you say the change started to happen? Was there something else that happened around the same time frame? When was her TBI?

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« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2020, 12:16:53 AM »

When would you say the change started to happen? Was there something else that happened around the same time frame? When was her TBI?

I've considered that.

Car accident late Feb of 2019.  Near as I can tell we did concussion recoveryright.  Several scans.

She stayed on headache drug for a while after we were sure concussion healed.  Slowly weaned her off and headaches didn't return.

The change came a couple weeks after we stopped going to prior church.  Late Sept 2019.  She seemed completely fine until December 8th (pretty sure on that date) where she left a letter and "snuck out" to church.

Let me give this some more thought, but I'm hard pressed to think of anything odd from her prior to the letter.  We had numerous conversations and she verbally told me she was fine with it and that she appreciated still going to youth events and to keep social connections (but not go to the main service).

She later admitted she felt differently but was too scared to tell me (or words to that effect), so her answer was write the letter and sneak away.

Anyway..

Best,

FF


 

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« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2020, 02:49:03 AM »

My thoughts are that children are obedient because of either fear, or respect. I think as parents we all want to aim for respect, but since most of us use punishment in one way shape or form there's an element of fear there as well.

It strikes me that your D has lost her fear of you (and losing her fear of the wider world), she's realised that she's not going to get 'hurt' and more likely realised she's just going to be inconvenienced by punishments, and she's smart enough to know that she can use regulatory arbitrage to get round some of the inconveniences. Which really means your only avenue for obedience is respect. Is the relationship with a D any different to a relationship with a W... or anyone for that matter? How many of the Gottmans 4 Horsemen are being ticked here?

If you look deeply and seriously with bundles of empathy, how do you actually think your D views you? How big or small do you think she views the gap between you both? How do you think she views your desire to do what is good for her? When I think about political leaders, I respect those I sense trying to do what is good for 'us', I lose respect for a leader whom I sense is trying to do what is good for 'them'. Who does your D see you working for? Also, how might she see herself?

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« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2020, 06:30:17 AM »

My parents raised me with fear- fear of my BPD mother's moods and her reactions. In retrospect, she was verbally and emotionally abusive, but I didn't recognize it as that. I thought abuse was only physical, and neglect. My parents didn't do that.

As a teen, I didn't feel love or respect for her. I did feel that for my father, but he was at his capacity with his job and my mother's issues.  His default was to have us keep the peace as much as possible by not upsetting her. It didn't take much to upset her.

I don't think I would say your D has lost her fear of you. It's possible her fear of you is leading her to be sneaky and do things without speaking to you because she is afraid. Or perhaps she also feels it won't matter.  My mother seems to see me through her projections and feelings, and she influenced my father.

FF, kids are different in how they feel and respond to family dynamics. Your D may react differently than her siblings.  I think you have been a good parent, especially under the circumstances. I admire that you have worked with your P to be as emotionally present for your kids as much as you can. I think this is crucial work and does make a difference. But there's another parent, and that parent has influence too.

I was too fearful to do the things your D did. I was basically compliant but not out of respect or even fear of my parents, but for fear that I would be on my own with any consequences- as even then, I felt my parents were not emotionally present or capable. Yes, they took care of me- clothing, food, good education. It was tough to respect my mother. I knew the rules, but the rules didn't apply to her. Your wife makes agreements and breaks them- and perhaps your D sees this too. Why should she keep agreements when your wife doesn't?

There was another irony in this too. I felt I had to be compliant to be loved and was compliant because I wanted my father to love me. My mother wasn't compliant, she broke all the rules and still, Dad loved her, did what she wanted him to, yet would get angry at me. This wasn't some competition for marital love. It was seeing that mother could be abusive, and get what she wanted no matter what and yet, I had to be completely compliant and felt unloved.

At about your D's age I had my first puppy love experience and it was overwhelming. The idea that someone liked me, for me. It was so scary too. I was so afraid of losing this that I was afraid to be me. We talk about mirroring in BPD. I don't have BPD but I learned to be a people pleaser to get along in my family and took that into relationships- friendships and romantic ones. Any relationship. But what made the puppy love overwhelming was the contrast to how I felt at home. Someone liked me and paid attention to me.

We talk about typical teen emotions but I also wonder what is this boy providing for your D that she may not be getting at home? I think these teen puppy love experiences are normal but also your D may be vulnerable in some ways. Does she go to church with his family? I was also very drawn to my friends' families and to other mothers who didn't have BPD and wanted to spend time with them.

What is going on with your D emotionally?

« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 06:37:25 AM by Notwendy » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2020, 06:35:51 AM »


Good stuff.

I've likely gone overboard trying to earn "respect" and "to be kind" and "parent with incentives".

Also that when she didn't earn the incentive, I've been too lax in providing a "pathway to redemption".

Sure, she would have to do something to earn back what was missed, but it obviously hasn't found the mark.

Because of family dynamics and the way my wife was raised, I've stayed too far away from feat (to the detriment of my parenting)

More later..she is supposed to be at breakfast in 10 minutes, we'll see if she makes it.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2020, 06:46:46 AM »

Fear may get you compliance, but it doesn't get love or respect.

My mother's main way of controlling me was through fear. Fear of her reactions. Fear of my father's anger at me if I didn't comply.

But my father did manage to build bonds with me. I did well academically and that was a shared interest. He would help with homework. But BPD mom mainly controlled us with her rages and her influence over my father.

It's sad, but I don't fear her anymore and the absence of that fear leaves an odd void between us because, we didn't connect over anything else.

I would not advise you to bring fear into your parenting.
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« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2020, 08:37:31 AM »


Serious question.

Isn't fear a normal emotion.  Doesn't it have a place.

I better not do that because Daddy would xyz?  (remove a privilege, etc etc)

Basically I'm suggesting  that in an effort to NOT be anything like BPD, I've made a parenting error by removing fear from the equation.

What if love, respect, fear, etc etc all existed together.  My understanding of your situation Notwendy is that fear was the only "tool" your Mom had. 

Asking a question here...not making a statement of what I'm going to do.  Please help me think this through.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2020, 03:34:08 PM »

Staff only This thread has reached its maximum length and is now locked. The conversation continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342558.0
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