Bad night ahead Part 2

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342595.0

I think that's exactly right and where I need to focus. Where am I listening and where am I enabling? Where do I go off the path? What's valid? Those are good questions to ponder. I think I have, in the past, offered to "help" too much. Especially last year when he was having the most trouble, he would lash out about how I wasn't helping. I wasn't taking away his stress. I'm a helper by nature (like most of us around here, seems like) so I would try to do what I can.

Well, I'm a lot better about that but there's still room for improvement.

Oddly, we were just talking yesterday morning about how SS9 doesn't seem capable of asking for what he wants. We're constantly having to ask him if he got enough at dinner, if he wants seconds, if he's ready for dessert. He just doesn't ask. We want to find a way to stop that because H said, he needs to learn how to ask for stuff. We can't read his mind or cater to him all the time.

Yeah.

And my dad is an ophthalmologist.

[Ozzie101]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342595.0

I think that's exactly right and where I need to focus. Where am I listening and where am I enabling? Where do I go off the path? What's valid? Those are good questions to ponder. I think I have, in the past, offered to "help" too much. Especially last year when he was having the most trouble, he would lash out about how I wasn't helping. I wasn't taking away his stress. I'm a helper by nature (like most of us around here, seems like) so I would try to do what I can.

Well, I'm a lot better about that but there's still room for improvement.

Oddly, we were just talking yesterday morning about how SS9 doesn't seem capable of asking for what he wants. We're constantly having to ask him if he got enough at dinner, if he wants seconds, if he's ready for dessert. He just doesn't ask. We want to find a way to stop that because H said, he needs to learn how to ask for stuff. We can't read his mind or cater to him all the time.

Yeah.

And my dad is an ophthalmologist.

[Ray2017]

Here's a surprise - my H does the same things (regarding family and not asking for help).  He has literally told me that he takes the lack of calls, for which, my parents would need a crystal ball to know something was up, as proof they don't care about him.  He will not reach out because he feels my parents should take the initiative to contact him.  When they don't, the circle goes round and round. I used to try and "help" and ask my dad to call my H on bad days, or invite them over for a last minute dinner, when they'd focus on my H and give him lots of validation/attention, but that obviously didn't stop the problem.  I don't do that now, but I'll be honest, it's not from the awesome boundary I made - it's because my dad's way too weak and sick from chemo and I will not bug him with this petty stuff. 

My H still complains about my parents on a regular basis.  He's mad that they get tons of offers to help and attention because of the cancer; he has said many times he's jealous of the attention and mad that my parents refuse a lot of the offers.  Before I would defend my parents because my dad is honestly the most selfless person I've ever known.  Even though these statements trigger me now (I've written a list of my triggers at your suggestion, Ozzie, and that is at the top), I've gotten to the point where I can recognize it faster; use breathing or get a big glass of water to stall and get my heart rate down and just listen.  I will sometimes validate the feeling he has, but often times I find it's better for me to ONLY listen because I can't exactly trust myself to keep it to just validation.  I'm trying to exit the conversation gracefully when it starts to circle back, but that's all a work in progress.

[formflier]

And my dad is an ophthalmologist.

Gotcha.

Is he an MD or a DO?

Does your hubby have eye issues? 

What exactly (or as close as possible) is it that hubby is expecting from your Father, that he is not getting.

Frankly, I was prepared for you to say he was an ortho guy and then find out that your hubby has lots of joint issues or something like that...yet he perceived your Dad as not helpful.

Hmm..

I'm sure I'll have more questions, but the mystery deepens...instead of getting clearer.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

  Especially last year when he was having the most trouble, he would lash out about how I wasn't helping. I wasn't taking away his stress. 

Ozzie101

We'll never know if this was an emotional outburst, thoughtful manipulation, learned behavior (or most likely) a stew of all those things mashed together.

I would be interested in your thoughts in explaining the manipulation point of view with this statement. 
This is BPDfamily "school"...so don't give your hubby the benefit of the doubt, just explain the manipulation.    (I suppose if you really wanted to go overboard you could explain each of the three scenarios (reasons) I proposed.

Why is this important?  (I can see your most healthy response being different based on likely "reason" he is doing it.

School bell is ringing!  Class is in!   

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Ray: I've definitely fallen into the "defend my parents" trap. They're not perfect and I'd be the first to acknowledge that. But, with my dad especially, he's one of the most caring people I know and with the most genuine integrity. To have either of those qualities questioned used to trigger me into arguing. Now, I'm better about it because I know for a fact what H says is not true and he's dysregulating.

[Ozzie101]

OK, FF. Here goes:

If I read you right, I'm analyzing his statement that I'm not helping or taking away his stress. There are different ways of seeing this:

Emotional Outburst:
He's stressed. He's overwhelmed. In desperation, he looks to the person closest to him (me) to make it better, desperate for some relief. Sort of a pleading of "Please help me with this!"

Learned Behavior:
He has poor emotional regulation -- obviously. It's worked for him in the past with me and maybe with others before me, for him to look to others to step in and save him. I don't know exactly how these things were handled, for instance, by his parents. For all I know, they fell all over themselves catering to him growing up. I really don't know. But I do know I've jumped in to help him with things in the past, even when I probably didn't need to. Hard for me to distinguish when it's right and when I should just let him deal.
He doesn't always do it with me. With the work situation, he's said "No one is helping me with this!"

Thoughtful Manipulation:
He knows that I like to help. He knows that I really value the importance of helping others and taking care of others. If he doesn't want to deal with something, he can get rescued by pushing the "help" button and I'll come running.
He has admitted before that he will deliberately trigger people (knowing their individual triggers) to get a reaction. That admission on his part is why it's easier for me to not be triggered. As Ray alluded to, I made a list of my triggers so I'd be more aware.

Which is true? Like you, I suspect some combination of the three. He has a tendency to try to triangulate and look for a rescuer. He frequently gets overwhelmed, doesn't know how to handle it and wants others to take care of things for him.

[formflier]

Solid!

OK, give me some theories and examples of responses to each.

Then, see if there is a combined response that covers all of them adequately, even if it might not be as good as if "you were sure" it was one of the three.

 

I think you are about "there".

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

This is where I tend to fall short.

When he's having an emotional outburst, he's not thinking rationally and probably not capable of problem-solving either.

I might try something like "You seem really stressed. That must be hard to deal with/that must be weighing on you a lot."

I'm not sure what to say after that. Might just leave it there and see how he responds -- if he wants to talk about it. Or follow up with, "Do you want to talk about it? Or do you want to try some problem-solving?"

For learned behavior, I'd probably say something like before, but also sort of put the problem back on him.
"You seem really stressed. That must be hard to deal with/that must be weighing on you a lot. How do you want to handle it?"
Or
"You seem really stressed. That must be hard to deal with/that must be weighing on you a lot. What do think you might do to take care of the problem?"

Actually, those might work for manipulation, too. Just refuse to pick up the stick he's dropped and keep putting it back on "What are you going to do?"

I'm not sure if saying something like "I hear you saying you believe it's my job to take your stress away. How do you propose I do that?" would be a good idea. Would it be sort-of validating the invalid? Opening the door to a discussion of something that, really, it's not my place to do?

[Ozzie101]

Another thread with him that may be sort of tied in: He gets very frustrated, even angry (depending on his mood), when people don't do what he thinks they should do or have opinions different from his.

[formflier]

OK.

How about this. 

Listening and perhaps validating is important. 

Basically, I'm here and I want to understand.
then
What do you think you will do about it (other validating question).
then (assuming he is still trying to "hand it to you")
this seems important, I'm going to need to give it some thought.  Can I stay here now to support you and perhaps we can find a way forward together...tomorrow evening.

Give him the message that he is important and then kick the can down the road.

Can you write out a few ideas of what that would look like or how you think he would react?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Here's what I think I'd say and my guesses at his replies:

Me: I'm here for you. Tell me what's going on with you.
After his explanation:
What would you like to do?
Him: I want you to fix this./I want you to tell me what you want me to do./I want you to help me. Nobody's helping!
Or
See? You're just putting this back on me and giving me even more stress. Why do I have to be the one to deal with all the stress all the time? Why can't you deal with some of it? Isn't that more fair? Shouldn't some of it be on you?
Me: I love you and I can tell you're under a lot of pressure. There's really not much I can do to take the situation away, but I'm happy to talk with you to try to come up with solutions.
He'd either reply that this doesn't help him or he'd fully melt down.

If I try to kick the can:
Me: This seems to be really important to you. I'd like to think about it so I can give it my best attention. Maybe we can talk about it tomorrow and see if we can come up with a solution.
Him: You always say you need to think about it. That's not helping me. That's just adding to my stress.
Or
Him: You always say you need to think about it. You won't ever make a decision because you don't want to get caught being wrong. You can't commit. You're just like an attorney. So careful with words.

This is just going by experience.

[formflier]

What would you like to do?

Him: I want you to fix this./I want you to tell me what you want me to do./I want you to help me. Nobody's helping!

I want to help you, please describe what this looks like to you and I'll consider it.  (sort of handing it back to him)

likely there will be more nonsensical stuff and then you can disengage from the conversation.

See? You're just putting this back on me and giving me even more stress. Why do I have to be the one to deal with all the stress all the time? Why can't you deal with some of it? Isn't that more fair? Shouldn't some of it be on you?

SET

I'm here for you and I'm sorry you are struggling with this.  The truth is life isn't fair. I can support you.  I can't do this for you.  (Imagine you with a gentle hand on his arm while saying this)

Me: I love you and I can tell you're under a lot of pressure. 

Do you think in times of stress he goes "yeah right" when you say you love him.  It could be invalidating.  He likely isn't feeling "lovey".

Him: You always say you need to think about it. That's not helping me. That's just adding to my stress.

 

"Hey babe...let's solve this once and be done with it.  What do you think?"  "I can't imagine solving this without careful thought."

Him: You always say you need to think about it. You won't ever make a decision because you don't want to get caught being wrong. You can't commit. You're just like an attorney. So careful with words.

I doubt this can be recovered and you should exit the conversation.  He's now into the "you" statements and basically disparaging you.

Perhaps try the gentle arm touch again.

"Hey babe...let's slow this down.  I need to catch up.  Let's not let insults come between us."

Again you haven't accused him of anything.  Perhaps there is a chance he goes "Insult..what are you talking about?"

Then let him off the hook..."I'm sure it wasn't intended...some words were hurtful.  Let's just pause for a few minutes.  Does that work?"

You are trying to slow it down.

Best,

FF


This is just going by experience.
[/quote]

[Ozzie101]

Thank you, FF. Those suggestions/rewrites really help me. I've tried some of those (just about word for word) without much success but I'll bet my tone or timing was off.

Do you think in times of stress he goes "yeah right" when you say you love him.  It could be invalidating.  He likely isn't feeling "lovey".

Very good point. I'll remember that.

"Hey babe...let's slow this down.  I need to catch up.  Let's not let insults come between us."

Again you haven't accused him of anything.  Perhaps there is a chance he goes "Insult..what are you talking about?"

I really like that.

Once he's really in one of these rages, nothing seems to work at all. It's like stomach bug. He has to get it all out and then it's over. The problem is that, so often, he's already in the zone before I'm even aware it's happening -- or before he gets home. I can be cooking dinner and he can be in the other room on his phone, when suddenly he comes in, eyes blazing and we're off.

Even taking a break doesn't work. The other night, we both took breaks. When I told my T that I'd taken a break in an argument and came back and he was in the same "place," she said instead of spending that time cooling down, he kept ruminating and ramping up.

I really do think the alcohol plays a role in this. Every big rage has involved drinking somehow. When he's not drinking, he can get angry, but he manages to stay rational.

[GaGrl]

He says he'll lay off the alcohol, but then he doesn't, and you've determined the alcohol interferes with conversations that are meant to support him.

Have you tried yet setting up an agreement that you will leave any of these types of conversations if they are alcohol-fueled? That seems fair.

[Ozzie101]

Yes, GaGrl, that's something I'm going to discuss with him -- see if he'll agree to a plan of action there. If we can't reach an agreement, then I'm going to have to come up with a plan on my own and stick to it. I can't let those alcohol-inflamed incidents continue. Every time they happen, they do more damage to our relationship.

[Ozzie101]

FF, I somehow missed this post:

Is he an MD or a DO?

Does your hubby have eye issues? 

What exactly (or as close as possible) is it that hubby is expecting from your Father, that he is not getting.

Frankly, I was prepared for you to say he was an ortho guy and then find out that your hubby has lots of joint issues or something like that...yet he perceived your Dad as not helpful.

My father is an MD. H wears glasses and contacts, but overall, no big problems.

I think H thinks that since my dad is an MD, he has contacts and can make things happen. Or he can tell us what to do (like report something to the med board). A year and a half ago, he wanted my dad or my brother-in-law (ER doctor) to write a prescription for his psych meds.

Thing is, my dad is an ophthalmologist in a small town. He knows all the doctors in that town, but not in the city where H and I live, even though it's less than an hour away.

Once, H was having some trouble with his eyes. My dad offered advice and said he could take a look. H wanted my dad to just go ahead and do his annual check-up, etc., too, because it was taking a while to get in with his regular doctor. My dad said he'd be happy to, but H would need to transfer as a patient. It's considered unethical otherwise. An emergency situation, sure he can help, but giving eye checks, etc., is a little different. H wasn't happy about that because he felt like, for family, you ought to break the rules. And he didn't want to transfer because my dad lives out of town and is going to retire in a couple of years. My dad is a very ethical, moral man and feels very uncomfortable doing things that aren't right. Anyway, H's doctor had a slot open up so it all passed without incident. His eyes have been fine since then.

The problems, as I said, have come from non-eye issues. He felt like my dad could help with his psychiatric situation. He just wouldn't and that it was a sign my dad doesn't care. My dad did ask a friend who had more knowledge of psychiatrists in our town and that friend tried to help but wasn't successful in getting H what he needed/wanted.

And neither he nor my BIL would write prescriptions for H. That would, again, be unethical, could get them in big trouble and could be dangerous for H. Those drugs need to be monitored and well understood by the prescribing doctor.

[formflier]

No worries about missing the question.  I've got tons of posts to catch up on...hopefully tonight.  (after a full day of work at one of my rental properties...ugg..not looking forward to it)

Anyway.

Your Dad and BIL seem to have solid thinking along ethical lines.  This is 100% a reflection on magical thinking of your H.

How often do your Dad and H talk?  See each other...etc etc.

Can you elaborate more on what your Dad's friend did with the psychiatrist and compare that to what your hubby wanted. 

I find it odd that people start out with a notion of what a doctor (especially mental health) can/should do for them and then they are closed off to all other advice/direction from them.

It's an odd way of "flipping" the world to one where the patient is the expert and the doctor is a "service provider" trying to "make them happy".

Anyway...I'm wondering if there is some healthy "process" advice your Dad and BIL can give your H that could result in a positive nudge in the right direction.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

My dad's friend is on the board for the mental health department at the state hospital. The friend gave the number for the assistant for the head of the department and gave us permission to use his name to see about getting H in (this was when H was looking for a new P). Problem? This doctor doesn't accept H's insurance -- actually, no one at that hospital did. They do now, but that's a moot point. So, it was something that could have been extremely helpful, but due to circumstances didn't go anywhere. (I may point out that this particular friend is married to the friend who's now drawing all H's ire at work.)

My dad and H don't talk unless we're together at a family function. My dad's usually pretty good about chatting with him or trying to. They've never reached out to each other but, as far as I know, it's the same with my dad's other sons-in-law. Once, when H was getting all worked up about this stuff last year, I had H talk to him and that seemed to calm the situation.

Honestly, I'd rather not ask my Dad or BIL to get involved at all. In my experience, it doesn't end well. I'd rather keep them out of it unless there's something I know for a fact they can help with. (Like a corneal abrasion or pink eye or "does this need stitches?")

I have asked before how certain things work. H hasn't been happy with answers. If things don't conform to the way he thinks they should be or if they in any way fall in with his negative thoughts, he'll lash out. For instance, when I told my dad about the non-responding doctor last year, my dad said that wasn't right and that doctors, if they drop a patient, are ethically obligated to refer the patient to someone else. H wanted to know about reporting the guy to the med board. My dad said we could, but if there were no other complaints on file, nothing was likely to happen. But a complaint could go on file for the future if anything else came up on this guy.

H's response: "See? All doctors do is protect each other. They only care about money. Nothing will ever happen because they close ranks and stand up for their own even if they do something wrong!"

[Cat Familiar]

It seems his preferred position on the Karpman triangle is victim. And he casts himself in that role frequently.

You are wise not to enlist your dad or BIL in trying to help, considering the likely outcome.

When he is in the victim role, you’ll have to stay away from being helpful and gravitate toward the center, so he has scarce evidence to cast you either as rescuer or perpetrator.

[Ozzie101]

Thanks, Cat. That's pretty much what I've been trying to do. I refuse to pull family or friends into something (unless I really do think they may be able to help). Of course, that drives him nuts that I won't "use your resources."

For instance, a couple of weeks ago, H was all worked up and dysregulating about stuff having to do with SS9's school: his science teacher was really disorganized and sending dozens of texts about an upcoming project, a letter got sent home about the gifted and talented program but the form that was supposed to be attached wasn't.

I have a BIL and a cousin-in-law who both work in the same school district, which is pretty broad and far-reaching, incorporating multiple towns. H was annoyed that I wasn't offering to contact them and ask them questions like: We're having competency problems with SS's teachers. Is that a district-wide problem? What's the GT program like? Is it worth going through the process to see if SS gets in?

Well, BIL and CIL both work at the high school level (English and band) and their school is in another town from SS's. In fact, SS's school isn't even a feeder school for it. The fact that they're in the same district is a pure technicality.

Anyway, I wouldn't ask them about it. As I told him, there's no way they'd have helpful info on it. He kept pressing. I kept refusing, gently, but firmly.

My CIL, especially, would have no relevant info. A band director isn't going to know a whole lot about GT or about the quality of science teachers at another school. And I didn't want to pull BIL into it. Again, he wouldn't know anything about it. And after my experiences with other BIL and Dad last year, no. (Not to mention, my pulling them in could trigger some sort of alarm bells for my sister, who would start to wonder if problems with H are starting again.)

He eventually dropped it. If more problems with the school pop up, it will probably come up again, but there's no way I'm going to involve them.

[Ozzie101]

I've read about the Karpman Triangle multiple times before, but after your post, Cat, I'm reading it again and with a closer eye.

I not only see that H tends to take up the Victim position (with shifts over to Persecutor), I also see examples of how he has tried before to push me to the Victim role and place himself as Rescuer.

Interesting stuff.

(And, yes, I see my own tendency to playing Rescuer and, occasionally and to a lesser extent, Victim, but I'm MUCH better about that now.)

[Cat Familiar]

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Rescuer.    And when my valiant attempts at rescuing are rebuffed, I go Victim-ey or get Persecutor-ey.

It's been a challenge for me to remember to say things like: I know you've got this.

I've wanted to show my love and care by helping, but the problem with doing that is that it's an implicit message that they are not capable themselves.

Then when my helping has gone awry and I'm told that I'm uncaring or unhelpful--that truly has p*ssed me off and I've gotten angry.

Though I might still be accused of being uncaring or unhelpful, if I don't try and rescue, at least I'm not invested, so these criticisms don't go so deep.

Sometimes helping can be appropriate. Then it might be good to ask them if they want help. I've done this at times and been told, "No" so apparently all my husband wanted was to have an audience for his griping.

[Ozzie101]

Exactly. I'm accused of being unhelpful with great frequency when he's going through a tough time. I was already backing off on that just out of self-preservation and a realization that "Hey, why do I try to help? It never works anyway?" but now I have more understanding that not helping is the right thing.

Well, helping's OK if it's genuinely needed and a real help but not if it's enabling or "rescuing."

"What do you want me to do?" is a frequent phrase of his -- trying to abdicate decision-making. Then, when I tell him I can't tell him what to do and that I know he can handle it, I get, "You just don't want to look bad by making the wrong decision." I still don't bite, though. I just reiterate that this is his choice to make. I can discuss it with him, listen to ideas, but it's his choice. He doesn't like that much, but now that I'm more aware of what's happening, it's easier for me to stay out of it and not get triggered.

And I'm relatively pleased at my ability to not be pushed into the Victim corner by him. When he gets upset about something on my behalf or claims something like "See? Doesn't that mean they don't care about you?" I just kind of shrug and say, "I don't see it that way, no." If he wants to come in and "rescue," my response is, "no, thanks. I've got it."

[Cat Familiar]

When you know that it's enabling that he's asking for, it's far easier to stay out of it. And the less you invest, the less you can be triggered.

If he's still centered, and not on the verge of dysregulating, you might even try a bit of joking with him. "You want me to make your decision?" said with an arched brow. Try sparingly, if at all. But sometimes I've found that humor works and it's more fun to be able to make light of some of these issues which can delve into arguments if we're not careful.

[Ozzie101]

Where we (I) sometimes run into trouble is when the decision at hand does affect me. For instance, something to do with his job. If he quits or loses his job, that will have a big, negative impact on our household income. Yet, I also know these decisions are his to make, not mine. I know he wants to try to push it on me because he's overwhelmed and doesn't want to be responsible for the outcome. At the same time, though, I don't want to be responsible either.

I still refuse to make the decision for him. "I can't tell you what to do. I'll brainstorm and discuss options with you, but I can't make the decision."

H had a very long, probably stressful day yesterday (8 meetings). He was quiet and subdued, but there was no alcohol and he never got upset or worked up over anything. I mostly gave him space.

He started working on the DBT workbook I bought. Told me that, so far, he hasn't found anything that will work for him, but he plans to keep going, hoping it goes deeper and gives other options for things to try.

(And I asked and he said he has told every T and P about his dissociative episodes -- he calls them blackouts.)

The thing is, as he told me (and has said before), there are issues he runs into with every therapist. They tell him to breathe. To try visualization. To try meditation. To do something he enjoys. But, he says, none of that works. Because even when doing something he enjoys, he's still focused completely on whatever bad thing happened or whatever is bothering him. It won't go away. And something like writing a letter to someone who's wronged him and then not sending it doesn't help -- He has to send it. He has to lash out. He has to punish someone.

Sometimes I wonder if some of these issues aren't BPD- or PTSD- or whatever D-related but are aspects of his personality. Is he just a vindictive, negative, angry person?