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Author Topic: 14 year old daughter not wanting to worship with family Part 6  (Read 259 times)
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« on: January 27, 2020, 08:43:13 AM »

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342316.0

We are going to horses after school.  That gets me a couple hours alone with her, we work together to clean out stalls, ground work with horses (we have a problem loader that we constantly keep after with practice to get in the trailer) and time to talk in a different setting

I gave her this story to read this morning.  I'll be listening to her response this evening and going from there.

In the story I gave her I obviously used her name and the horses name.

Excerpt


D14 owns D14 horse and is responsible for her.

D14 has a trainer that she has to help learn.  Assume there is no way to end the relationship with the trainer.


D14 has been really impressed with the trainer and D14 horse is getting much much better as a horse.

However, three times in the past year D14 showed up at the barn to spend time with D14 horse, when she and her trainer specifically agreed that D14 horse would be at the barn...safe in her stall.

But D14 showed up and D14 horse was gone.  

Both times D14 was scared to death because she knew that while D14 horse was better, she wasn’t ready to be out on her own with a trainer that hadn’t graduated training school yet.

D14 picked up her phone to call the trainer and was sure the trainer would answer the phone, yet D14 heard the trainers phone ringing in the tack room...each time.

D14 and the trainer had an iron clad agreement that D14 horse was never...NEVER... to be taken out of the barn...NEVER...without the trainer having her phone.

The first time D14 horse got taken from the barn, D14 horse got hurt...really bad.  She wasn’t able to go to horse shows all summer, but eventually recovered.  The trainer was hurt too.

The second time the trainer  left D14 a note, saying that even though D14 had told the trainer not to take D14 horse out to practice riding in traffic, along the side of the road and other dangerous places….she was going to do it anyway.  The trainer told D14 she took D14 horse to a place that the trainer knew D14 couldn’t go.  

So all the trainer could do was to worry for a couple of hours.

The last time the trainer took D14 horse out, D14 and the trainer had a written agreement saying exactly where D14 horse could be taken.  The trainer “forgot” what that agreement said, “accidentally” left her phone in the tack room again.  All D14 could do was worry for 3-4 hours.

D14 is going to have a meeting with her trainer.  What changes should D14 make so that her trainer and D14 horse are safe.  I expect to listen to you tell me about this this afternoon.
I expect you to be able to describe what D14 felt like during those three times.  What should D14 expect to see from her trainer?


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« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2020, 09:01:39 AM »

I have actually erred towards being too nice too, to compensate for how I was raised.

Learning about co-dependency has also helped me with parenting.

I think it helps to distinguish between fear of a parent and fear of consequences.

Fear of consequences is a good lesson.

"I had better study for this test or I won't get a good grade--- might not get into the college I want...etc"

is different than " I had better study for this test or Dad will be mad at me" ( fear of Dad).

is also different than " I had better study for this test or Dad will be disappointed in me".

There is a series called "Parenting With Love and Logic". I haven't looked at it closely but the idea is to let children learn from natural consequences to the extent that is safe for them and a gradual letting this happen. It means letting your child run outside without a jacket and experiencing feeling cold rather than to nag them to wear their jacket all the time. Letting them face the teacher without their homework rather than nag them to remember to bring it.

Your D wants certain privileges, like deciding to go to church with the boy. She's also sneaking out of the house- rather than discuss her wishes with you. Why? does she feel it isn't possible to get what she wants any other way?

This doesn't mean kids get whatever they want, but if there are some privileges she can have, how do you set this up so she can have some of them by earning them?

And there needs to be consequences for rule breaking that involves safety. One priority is not sneaking out of the house, not leaving her phone at home. Why is she sneaking out? What does she want? How can the two of you arrange for her to express what she wants while respecting your boundaries and limits?

ie, " you may see this boy on Saturday ( or some Sundays) if you do your homework, chores, don't sneak out and bring your phone". If she keeps the rules great, if she does not she's grounded and if she sneaks out, there will be consequences- you go after her.

I



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« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2020, 09:08:05 AM »

I like that FF, that's excellent.... that's empowering.

What if she said that the trainer knew the horse needed to go out and be free, and was ready and that she had been to controlling trying to stop the trainer from doing that? I sense there needs to be some acceptance on both sides. She needs to accept that you want the best for her and aren't just representing your own best interests You need to acknowledge her sense of autonomy, and allow her the ability to express that, without putting her in a position to justify it with biblical reasons only. By the sounds of things she doesn't intend to do anything her conscience tells her is 'wrong', but the setup now means that to do 'right' things, she's required to do 'bad' things to achieve them.

This sounds like a spiritual version of teenage sex.... would you rather your D feel able to talk to you about underage sex, enough that you could provide her with information about protection or contraceptive, or would you rather she lie and not gain access to protection or contraceptives? Either way the underage sex is going to happen.


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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2020, 09:50:29 AM »

Hi again from Family Law.

Tracking with this thread because we have SD13 & SD11 and we've had to be... creative... about church.

Excerpt
But there's another parent, and that parent has influence too.

Yes.

FF, could you timeline out ALL your kids' ages, and how old they were when your W "went crazy" (or whatever best term is for "the switch" when things went "bad"?)

It would not surprise me if there was an age/developmental-based thing, related to kids' ages when W "went downhill", going on with why D14 is your first kiddo to act like this.

...

Excerpt
My guess is she thinks she is an adult and should be able to do this stuff on her own, because she is so advanced.

How has your W related to her? What I mean is, has your W tended towards one or another of the kids as "being most like herself"? Does your W lean on D14 for some type of support?

Our SD13 has been strongly parentified and role-reversed by Mom and Stepdad for years. This has created a  dichotomy in her where, like your D14, she is VERY verbal and in talking and writing can come across as "sophisticated, thoughtful, and mature". At the same time she is, in a way, emotionally at or under age level -- will have no compunction about verbally throwing a family member "under the bus" in order to gain acceptance by peers. (That is another story but pretty great outcome).

I hear from SD13's teachers "how great SD13 is" (I could absolutely picture school staff congratulating SD13 on not hitting back in a fight), and part of that is true, and part of it is actually symptomatic of how things have been between Mom and SD13 for years. SD13 has to be the strong, mature, capable one, and her insight and sophistication are actually survival mechanisms cloaking a real immaturity.
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« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2020, 10:19:55 AM »

Our SD13 has been strongly parentified and role-reversed by Mom and Stepdad for years. This has created a  dichotomy in her where, like your D14, she is VERY verbal and in talking and writing can come across as "sophisticated, thoughtful, and mature". At the same time she is, in a way, emotionally at or under age level -- will have no compunction about verbally throwing a family member "under the bus" in order to gain acceptance by peers. (That is another story but pretty great outcome).

I hear from SD13's teachers "how great SD13 is" (I could absolutely picture school staff congratulating SD13 on not hitting back in a fight), and part of that is true, and part of it is actually symptomatic of how things have been between Mom and SD13 for years.

SD13 has to be the strong, mature, capable one, and her insight and sophistication are actually survival mechanisms cloaking a real immaturity.



You could have been writing about me at that age. I didn't feel I had to defy a family member but I craved acceptance by peers.
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« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2020, 10:26:45 AM »


I think it helps to distinguish between fear of a parent and fear of consequences.

Fear of consequences is a good lesson.


This is exactly the difference I need to think about.  Just got back from meeting with P...lot's of thinking and organizing going on in my head. 

More in a bit.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2020, 10:41:24 AM »



FF, could you timeline out ALL your kids' ages, and how old they were when your W "went crazy" (or whatever best term is for "the switch" when things went "bad"?)

It would not surprise me if there was an age/developmental-based thing, related to kids' ages when W "went downhill", going on with why D14 is your first kiddo to act like this.

...

2009 was when things went bonkers. 

D14 was born in 2005.

I have S23 (almost 24), D23 (just turned), S19, S17, D14, S11, D9, D6.  (fingers crossed I got all that right...)

D14 relating to my wife:

Based on size, they still swap some clothes.  This is mainly stuff disappearing from Mom's closet and D14 wearing it.  They talk a lot about outfits.  This  is kinda getting over because of D14s growth.

D23 is tall and most likely D14 is on the same path. 

I'm kinda not thinking I'm answer the question, so please poke at me some more. 

Their relationship seems great with small periods of absolute gobsmacking weirdness.  Such as D14 being put on a public trial that I ended.

Best,

FF

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« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2020, 10:49:30 AM »


OK, input from P and my plan for this evening.
 
Deal with safety stuff first.  Put away logical arguments and call her on the obvious manipulation.

Put away logic and just come right out and say that I'm having a hard time believing this was "an honest mistake" and "it looks like I'm being played". 

"You know good and well what you are doing...knock it off."

Essentially a week or more of being ground where things procedures "get reset" and going forward we are over obvious about her "earning" her privileges.

Part of the thing that "cuts me deep" is that I spent over half a day on Saturday taking her and friend to horses, trailering them to a fairgrounds.  Going above and beyond what most Dads do and this is how she expresses her appreciation for that effort.  "That cuts...deep"

That trust can be rebuilt, but it will take work on her part.

I've got notes and stuff I need to go over.

Best,

FF


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« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2020, 10:57:32 AM »

From a Biblical perspective, fear isn't a bad thing:

Proverbs 9:10:
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Mosaic Law gave parents the option of executing their disobedient children - I am pretty sure many parents during that time period used that to put the "fear of parents" into their kids:

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

On the other hand, the relationship doesn't just stay with fear.  The goal is to develop a better long term relationship:

1 John 4:18:
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2020, 11:30:40 AM »

Excerpt
D14 relating to my wife:

Based on size, they still swap some clothes.  This is mainly stuff disappearing from Mom's closet and D14 wearing it.  They talk a lot about outfits.  This  is kinda getting over because of D14s growth.

D23 is tall and most likely D14 is on the same path.

I'm kinda not thinking I'm answer the question, so please poke at me some more.

Their relationship seems great with small periods of absolute gobsmacking weirdness.  Such as D14 being put on a public trial that I ended.

I am curious about if your W treats D14 as a peer (or superior?) emotionally.

This could look like "close talks" between them where W dumps some emotional baggage. Could be "unconsiously scripted" interactions where W complains/moans/is sad, and D is tacitly expected to say "It's OK Mom, you're great" or whatnot. Any situation where D14 is expected, explicitly or not, to "help" Mom in an adult way: providing gas money (SD13's mom still does this to her), acting as a peer/friend, listening to complaints about adult relationships, etc. It could also look different.

It can really cause whiplash to kids if they are treated as "peers" or "wise beyond their years" by a parent, who then occasionally tries to "parent" them. Kid: I thought you told me I was advanced, mature, and wise, and now you're berating me for drinking? When did you start to be the parent?

More that kind of stuff, though sometimes the clothes sharing can be a "weird thing". With SD13 it's more that Mom "borrows" SD's clothes, than SD borrowing Mom's. Role reversal.
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« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2020, 11:37:45 AM »

My dad was like you, FF, and did a lot of wonderful things for me and my friends. He would take us to the beach and make himself scarce, so we could pretend we were there by ourselves. Since we didn’t live far from Hollywood, I would get tickets for the taping of TV shows and he would drop us off and then pick us up afterwards.

As someone who later became alienated from my parents, mostly due to my BPD mom, my advice is to keep forming those deep bonds with your daughter. Yeah, she will take it for granted at times (typical teenager) but she won’t forget either. It’s one of those parental exercises that will often go unthanked, but a part of her will remember and be appreciative.

It’s much easier to rebel against an authoritarian parent, much harder to rebel against a fair and kind disciplinarian.

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« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2020, 11:40:31 AM »


I'm not aware of any "dumping" on D14 by my wife. 

Certainly my wife will have odd public displays and things but D14 is just an audience member, along with other kids.  (I'm not saying this is OK, just showing a difference).

Let me think more about this.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2020, 11:43:00 AM »

Kells brings up a good point. My mother confided somewhat about her relationship with my dad, even accusing him of infidelity when he was taking night classes. That was hard to hear when I was a young teenager.
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« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2020, 11:45:43 AM »

Kells brings up a good point. My mother confided somewhat about her relationship with my dad, even accusing him of infidelity when he was taking night classes. That was hard to hear when I was a young teenager.

I really doubt she has been "confided in".  I'm positive she has heard crazy stuff (through public pronouncements vice confiding), although the women accusations have been off the table for many years now.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2020, 12:00:52 PM »

Couple of comments...

1) I think the P's "get real" approach is what's needed here. D14 needs to know this isn't your first rodeo (keeping with the horse theme). You aren't naive, you aren't stupid, you know when you are being manipulated -- so stop. It's really about FF's boundary around safety, for one thing.

Value -- I hold the safety of my family members at the highest level.

Boundary -- I expect family members to follow family safety rules. When a family member places himself/herself in a risky situation, I will intervene.

Consequence -- A family member who violates family safety rules will lose privileges related to the violation and will be required to regain them.

2)  I like the idea of differentiating between fear of a parent and fear of consequences. You might want D14 to give you her thoughts on this. Since this involved safety, D14 needs a healthy fear of consequences that have nothing to do with losing privileges -- there are potential outside consequences that she is not yet prepared to deal with.

Also, just something to consider as an analogy or example...what would the consequences have been if an enlisted man or NCO under your command had not shown up for an assigned shift or had made a serious safety violation? (My husband said the only time he demoted a soldier and literally ripped the stripes off his uniform was a second safety violation related to properly securing items in the armory.)


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« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2020, 12:07:44 PM »

D14 needs a healthy fear of consequences that have nothing to do with losing profiles -- there are outside consequences that she is not yet prepared to deal with.

What does "loosing profiles" mean? 

For me it was "tool control" and the integrity that went along with it.

Let's just say loosing tools in an airplane is a big deal...but it happens.  Things get dropped, stuff happens.

So if you loose a tool and you fess up and let maintenance control know...all good.

If you lie about it and we find it later, I'm taking a stripe..taking money and you and the Navy are essentially over.  I wouldn't ever let that guy work unsupervised on an airplane again.  The supervisors would know he couldn't be trusted and would be up his azz about compliance...all the time.

I'm not aware of anyone that has recovered from doing this.  I am aware of people that limped along to retirement after this.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2020, 12:56:42 PM »

Is your wife treating your D as a peer? Somehow your D is picking up on wife’s resentments? Wife has said some things that could cause triangulation. The remark over the tv volume is one of them. Telling your kids you aren’t a Christian is another. Didn’t your wife like the church you left and want to join ? Is she resented leaving maybe your D picked up on that .


I sense a triangle here. Wife and D aligned against you . Maybe not overtly but along the lines of “we are BFFs “ and an alliance vs you.

BPD mom works in triangles. She would also confide in me against Dad- complain about him and also discuss TMI about the marriage.
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« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2020, 01:02:53 PM »

Excerpt
Part of the thing that "cuts me deep" is that I spent over half a day on Saturday taking her and friend to horses, trailering them to a fairgrounds.  Going above and beyond what most Dads do and this is how she expresses her appreciation for that effort.  "That cuts...deep"

It is a painful part of step/parenting that the kids are not always appreciative of what we do for them.

I would challenge this connection:

Excerpt
this is how she expresses her appreciation for that effort

My perspective is that she is young enough and mentally immature enough that she does not see how it could come across as ungrateful. I suspect she is not purposefully "expressing her gratitude" for your love and devotion by being dishonest and disobedient.

My guess is that you... maybe don't TRULY believe that connection? But are frustrated? Am I close?

Excerpt
my advice is to keep forming those deep bonds with your daughter. Yeah, she will take it for granted at times (typical teenager) but she won’t forget either. It’s one of those parental exercises that will often go unthanked, but a part of her will remember and be appreciative.

Cat makes a good point. Whatever your D14 does -- and what the other posters have said about safety is so true, THAT needs to be faced head on -- I would not make your special 1x1 time with her contingent on her behavior. Let her be "afraid of the consequences" (not of you) elsewhere. This seems solid to me -- let her experience the fallout of her behavior in a way that retains or increases her time with you.
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« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2020, 01:20:20 PM »


She had plenty of time to bring up any questions she had.

She did all the fun stuff with me on Saturday, knowing full well she was going to abrogate her agreement the next day.

She did it knowing full well she would do that.

Her Mom tried to push her in the right direction and D14 dug her hold deeper.

There is no one..not one reasonable or rational explanation for "forgetfulness" or however she is pitching it.

If she doesn't get the connection, I'll help her understand it.


Best,

FF
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« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2020, 01:51:41 PM »

Move to the top

I suspect there is decent chance this issue "comes to a head" this week.  

It appears to me she has gone back to this church and specifically asked them about what they taught her (that her wants and needs are more important than her Father's) and they are apparently denying they have taught her such things.

Yet she is clinging to "this church only teaches what is in the Bible" and when asked why we can't find the teaching they taught her and she used in the way they taught her in the Bible, she tries to change the subject rather than directly answer the question.


I've got a number of threads I need to get caught up on.  

Oh, and the safety stuff was addressed head on.  She owned it and has been overly obvious about complying since then.


Best,

FF
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