How do you document...

[CHChuck]

How do you document emotional abuse? At my therapy appointment this morning, my therapist told me, without a doubt, you are emotionally and, to a very small extent, physically abused. The physical abuse is easier, but the emotional abuse can be hard. 

My pwBPD is using her wealth to control me, prohibiting me from leaving.  I am hoping for some mechanism to regain some say in my life.

Thank you for your advice.

[GaGrl]

You can contact your local domestic abuse organization to discuss the components of abusr. Is this financial control? That is a form of domestic abuse. Do you have funds withheld? Are you unable to spend your own funds?

[zachira]

My understanding is that keeping a log with dates and times in concurrent order, and a description of what is going on is valid legal documentation for court.

[CHChuck]

Financial abuse is a major component. I have tons recorded and can document her complete unwillingness to give me access to our wealth.

Add to it that I cannot sleep in our own bedroom, hug her, or make decisions to leave.  I have to tread carefully because I don't want to intimidate her...I am a muscular 200 pounder while she is thin and thinks of herself as weak. Unfortunately, she uses this against me all the time...TV is too loud and I won't turn it down, I am bullying her - I won't get her dessert at night...I'm controlling...

[CHChuck]

My understanding is that keeping a log with dates and times in concurrent order, and a description of what is going on is valid legal documentation for court.

This is good. I can do this, especially connecting to the audio. 

[PeteWitsend]

all this will only matter if abuse becomes an issue in a contested divorce, as will the testimony of your therapist.  if you just leave and agree to split assets some way in mediation and divorce, the court won't care about your documentation.

also be aware that what you document is just "your side of the story" and without physical evidence to corroborate it, will simply be evidence the court has to weigh.  

and will have to be weighed against your Wife's side of the story, which you can bet will be heavily embellished.  

But, yeah, document whatever you can.  note text messages or emails (print or log them elsewhere so you can find key ones out of hundreds or thousands).  Searching through a digital file of text message history can get exhausting and very expensive.

Most importantly: Do NOT let your wife find any of this or even know that you are documenting abuse.  she will flip out and make your life even more miserable.

Understand that you're documenting this for yourself, not for her, not to help the marriage.  it's important to keep that in mind, to avoid teh temptation to remind her during an argument what she did or said last week.

[CHChuck]

Understand that you're documenting this for yourself, not for her, not to help the marriage.  it's important to keep that in mind, to avoid the temptation to remind her during an argument what she did or said last week.

Pardon my slip into college vernacular - Dude!  This is awesome advice!  Thank you for reminding me. I am STILL thinking, "I can salvage this." I might be able to do that but not by telling her I'm keeping track of the ways she is abusing me. 

I still hope for an uncontested divorce, but I need to prepare.  After 30 years, she's worth tens of millions (family money and hard to reach other than income) and I'm worth $2,500. It's easy to document how I have not been permitted access to her substantial income these past 28 years to establish personal wealth.

Also, I am recording everything now. At the advice of my attorney to demonstrate that I am NOT doing anything threatening. In my state, this is legal. Those, coupled with journals might be helpful as well. Sure, they are only my perspective, but its all we have. I am certain she is not recording...Even if she is, it'd be exactly what I have.

[mstnghu]

I've been documenting any sort of "significant" events for a long time now whenever they happen with my wife. I've actually spoken with a couple different lawyers about this issue to try to educate myself as much as possible. I'm in CA and I'm sure laws about this vary from state to state.

The lawyers told me though that any kind of recordings probably wouldn't be admissible in court if it was done secretly without her knowledge. I was told that secret recordings typically could only be used if there were allegations of abuse. They did however say that my personal documentation of significant events (including dates/times/locations/etc.) is basically my personal testimony and most likely would be allowed in court. It's my own account of a situation in which I'm personally involved in and would be pertinent to the case if it went before a judge.
Despite the never-ending conflict between me and my wife, I try to keep it somewhat simple and I only document the really significant situations where she's acting batsh*t crazy. I also try to document it as soon as I can so that the details are fresh in my memory. Obviously keep whatever you're documenting in a safe place where she doesn't have access to it!

[CHChuck]

Thank you for this suggestion MST...

I only legally record when I am present to document our interactions. My lawyer suggested this to prevent a worst-case scenario. However, I agree, any comments she makes on them can be used to document intent, but nothing else.

Documenting for my own personal testimony is a really good idea. I had documented years of these things, but frequently delete them after a month or two of bliss. I think, how could this every happen again?  What a naive, hopeful husband I was.   

[Turkish]

My understanding is that keeping a log with dates and times in concurrent order, and a description of what is going on is valid legal documentation for court.

And initialed or signed. Multiple professional sources told me that. 

[Enabler]

I can't remember who the member was who mentioned this, however, going to court having a very solid coherent case knowing exactly the order of events can weigh heavily in your favour not least because you can make a case with integrity which is consistent. A disorganised person, let alone a dysfunctional person prone to delusional thinking, may well have a poorly ordered mental time line (hence the use of cross examination in courts) of events. Being able to walk into court with a ring-binder of tabbed notes speak VOLUMES, and speaks even louder if or when details from said notes can be used... although opportunity for this will be limited as courts care little for he said she said.

I have rough notes for events for the first 20 yrs of the relationship based on evidence I have found and 3 years worth of DAILY journal notes. Predominantly I have used this for self validation of events and a few stats like how many nights we have both been out, or days on holiday.

Does anyone know of a good phone app for daily journaling? I currently use and excel spreadsheet at work, which does have the benefits of being able to run stats on it.

[Panda39]

When I first met my partner and saw the stuff his uBPDxw was doing regarding their children and to him, I knew it was wrong but didn't have the vocabulary for it.  Or we sometimes normalize/minimize abuse.  I thought I'd share the power and control wheel it has good descriptions (I unfortunately could not find a gender neutral version - men are not all abusers and women are not all victims, I know it...we all know it) 

Defining abusive behavior...



I just thought it would help to be clear about what is abuse when you are documenting.

Panda39

[CHChuck]

Thank you for these suggestions. I must say, keeping a journal or clear records has been difficult as an empathic person with ADD. On the one hand, I am frequently pushed to the point where I want to keep records.  Then, the good times come and I forget to keep track of the daily barbs or gentle attacks. If things stay good for a month or two, I will think to myself, how could I have ever thought there was a problem...then I delete everything.  I've recently found a file from two years ago. I was SHOCKED to hear myself put up with what I heard. However, I was proud of the way I calmly tried to redirect her outrage. I thought these were skills I had only recently developed. I believe I had them, now I know what to call them.

The abuse wheel is very helpful. I am so sorry most of these are male-focused...But, mostly I'm sorry because of what that says about our history. Any relationship with a huge imbalance of power is ripe for problems or abuse unless the person with the power honors it. That can often be the man, for sure.  I cannot tell you how many attorneys and therapists have told me how unique my case is.

[Cat Familiar]

If things stay good for a month or two, I will think to myself, how could I have ever thought there was a problem...then I delete everything.  I've recently found a file from two years ago. I was SHOCKED to hear myself put up with what I heard. However, I was proud of the way I calmly tried to redirect her outrage. I thought these were skills I had only recently developed. I believe I had them, now I know what to call them.

Nice people don't hold onto grudges...and then it bites us in the butt.

Perhaps better to forgive, but not forget.

[Enabler]

Keeping a neutral journal of facts and maybe less emotions might enable you to not see this as a journal only valuable for bad behaviour. It allows you to record 'stuff'. There is a lot of value in recording things that went well as things that went badly. Record all things in a neutral manner then it's neither good or bad... it just is. It's a habit. Just keep it in a safe place where there's no way she can know about it.

I agree with Cat, nice people don't hold on to grudges. In the past I feel I have been too quick to forgive and to quick to forget and attempt to carry on. The problem is, although I don't harbour grudges during the good times, they back up in the bad times as "unresolved". Also, my W is very good at holding grudges so I feel resentment that I'm not forgiven for any of my 'wrongs' when I've long since gotten over hers... she can't get over me not making the bed yet I'm supposed to forget about her going out till 2am when she said she was just popping out for 30 mins (that kind of thing). I actually think sometimes I'd like to be better at not letting things be brushed under the carpet... and maybe I am now.

Enabler

[zachira]

I think Catfamiliar has really made an important point in saying that nice people don't hold onto grudges. I would add that dysfunctional people not only hold onto grudges, they don't own their part in the problem; it is always somebody else's fault that they are upset which is indeed emotional abuse.

[AskingWhy]

I use my cell phone speaker function.  I use the video recorder and it picks up the audio.  I have already made a police report when my uBPD H trashed the living room and left in a rage.

[CHChuck]

Nice people don't hold onto grudges...and then it bites us in the butt.

Perhaps better to forgive, but not forget.

This comment means so much to me, thank you. At least once a week, my pwBPD convinces me I am the one with an illness or who is controlling in an unhealthy way.

I spent Sunday reviewing what few journal entries I have left and understand why I delete so many of them. Frankly, I was getting frustrating with my 2018 self for not saying enough is enough! I am just so quick to forgive that I let it go the second she starts showing the slightest bit of caring.

 Maybe I shouldn't be so angry with my younger self because I did not bolt Sunday night after reading those 2018 entries. 2020 is different. I have a better understanding of what is happening here. Now, I expect her seeking treatment that leads to a change...First, I need for her to acknowledge she can benefit from treatment.

BTW, I am writing this reply from my office. My wife glared at me then kicked me out of the kitchen because of the noise I was making while drinking my soda!

[Enabler]

Can I understand why you deleted journal records?

Did you feel you knew better now (later) than then? A tip, if you think you know better (new information comes to light), annotate in a different colour or font or just date the addition. That's actually been excellent for me as I could see how in some instances I was actually wrong about my assumptions at the time. When evidence came available at a later date it changes the picture... and we can learn how we're skewing some situations with muck from other unrelated experiences.

[formflier]

My wife glared at me then kicked me out of the kitchen because of the noise I was making while drinking my soda!

How did she kick you out?  What would have happened if you said no or just remained?


Are you wanting our help to sort out "which path" to go down (divorce or reconcile)?

I'm still trying to understand how you are worth $2,500 and she is worth millions (or you are jointly worth millions), yet you have no access whatsover to it.

If you walk into a bank where the funds are...do you not have any way to access them?

What does your timeline look like for sorting out a pathway for you to move forward?

Best,

FF

[CHChuck]

Can I understand why you deleted journal records?

Did you feel you knew better now (later) than then? A tip, if you think you know better (new information comes to light), annotate in a different colour or font or just date the addition. That's actually been excellent for me as I could see how in some instances I was actually wrong about my assumptions at the time. When evidence came available at a later date it changes the picture... and we can learn how we're skewing some situations with muck from other unrelated experiences.

I would record and journal about some of the outburst or arguments. On the one hand, they would help me learn to behave differently (I learned a ton about staying calm). I had hoped she would listen to them or read the journals and have empathy with me...She has a psych PhD, so I thought she'd be curious. Then, after a couple of months of peace, I would delete them because she would be devastated to stumble upon them and I was turning over a new leaf. I thought, "I got this! If I continue to respond to her the way I am, we will NEVER fight (a requirement for her)."

I was continuing to do this even up to last year. I was "lucky" to find a few on an old Time Machine. 

What's changed? Really, I've learned she won't change and uses her wealth to control me. I also know how to frame her behaviors. I might have the authority to set limits. Until now, I've felt trapped. I'm not sure if these will help, but I feel like they might be a tool for me if she continues to respond to my limits by pushing and taking back more.

[CHChuck]

How did she kick you out?  What would have happened if you said no or just remained?


Are you wanting our help to sort out "which path" to go down (divorce or reconcile)?

I'm still trying to understand how you are worth $2,500 and she is worth millions (or you are jointly worth millions), yet you have no access whatsover to it.

If you walk into a bank where the funds are...do you not have any way to access them?

What does your timeline look like for sorting out a pathway for you to move forward?

Best,

FF

Regarding the soda: I choose my battles with her and I am still new to the idea of setting limits. I think if I leave, she will realize how absurd she was being and later apologize. Now I'm smiling because after 30 years, I should know better!

Regarding the money...it's inheritance and set in Trusts. Throughout my marriage, the I have heard, "you don't need to save because of the family money."  True, but only if I behave, be a good boy, and stay in the marriage.

Honestly, I am more hurt to see her and her family controlling me in this way than anything she has ever done.  Like many spouses on this site, I've spent the past 30 years frantically spinning to find the thing that will make her happy. Of course, my career was one of the first things to go so that I can take care of her or manage the "land minds" she found around the house when I was at work.  If only I could go back and talk to my 23 year-old self...AND be certain my 23 year-old self would listen!

[formflier]

So, is your net worth really $2500?  Is your name on deed of house(s)?

How does it get figured out who spends on what?   Do you get monthly allowance?

Best,

FF

[CHChuck]

So, is your net worth really $2500?  Is your name on deed of house(s)?

How does it get figured out who spends on what?   Do you get monthly allowance?

Best,

FF

You are right about the house, furniture, my car. So, I would be in better positions than most...money is a huge source of control and it's ramped up since I started setting limits about a year ago.

Interestingly, when I am able to take that control away, things change. So, I use my professional contacts to line-up a post-relationship job and things change. I still have no access to the wealth, but I am setting limits and expect a change.

[GaGrl]

Are you in a community property state? If so, any wealth that has been accumulated during the marriage is "community" or 50-50.

That being said, inherited funds remain with the person who inherited, unless that person voluntarily co-mingles the funds in family accounts.  Trusts are more complicated -- you would need to show that you have been living and depending on proceeds of the trust.

[formflier]

 
In my state it depends on if the inheritance showed up before or after the marriage.

So if you are married, you both inherit it.  There are arguments to be made for keeping some of it separate, but it's certainly not protected here.

It's a motivator for me to do the best I can in my relationship! 

Best,

FF

[CHChuck]

Things get very complicated when that kinds of money is involved, for sure. At a minimum, it sets up a power dynamic that can be pretty unhealthy when the non-wealthy spouse is co-dependent and the other might be BPD.

Truly, what I am learning in this thread is tremendously helpful. Having a voice and feeling comfortable using it is an important first step. Until now, I feared I could be homeless while my partner flew private jets each year to the summer home on the ocean or sky lodge over spring break. 

[formflier]

How do you get access to money?

Do you have an ATM card to get "inherited money"?


Have you ever said "no" or stood your ground on an issue?  What happened?

Best,

FF

[CHChuck]

How do you get access to money?

Do you have an ATM card to get "inherited money"?


Have you ever said "no" or stood your ground on an issue?  What happened?

Best,

FF

It is complicated...Saying no sometimes leads to the most extreme argument, other times it is fine.  I am like a rat who randomly gets shocked. I have learned to give in as much as possible.

Now, I am developing a plan so that I have the freedom to hold my ground regardless of the reaction.