Communication only through attorneys?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I am ready to pull the plug.   I plan to go no contact using the principles on this site.

My T says to communicate through the attorneys.  My gut tells me to not deal with her any more. There has been suicide threats before when I tried to depart.  A lot of yelling and screaming.  Things were thrown at me. I have a safe exit plan (thanks board administrators!)

I really wonder if saying I will no longer talk to her and go through my attorney is counterproductive.    Doesn’t that start on an adversarial note from the git go?   Or, in the end it will be splitting and anger anyway so not much overall effect on the outcome?

Does anyone regret not going through the lawyers?  Or do you think you should have? 

[Boll2017]

I am ready to pull the plug.   I plan to go no contact using the principles on this site.

My T says to communicate through the attorneys.  My gut tells me to not deal with her any more. There has been suicide threats before when I tried to depart.  A lot of yelling and screaming.  Things were thrown at me. I have a safe exit plan (thanks board administrators!)

I really wonder if saying I will no longer talk to her and go through my attorney is counterproductive.    Doesn’t that start on an adversarial note from the git go?   Or, in the end it will be splitting and anger anyway so not much overall effect on the outcome?

Does anyone regret not going through the lawyers?  Or do you think you should have? 

[Turkish]

Quoth my therapist, "divorce is adversarial by definition."

My dissolution (with kids) was fairly neutral, yet I just got into a text/phone fight this past hour... 6 years after. I'm still angry, and am thus not responding until the morning regarding taking our D7 to the doctor. She hung up on me on the phone.

Given your fresh situation, and her violence, communicating through lawyers might be needed.  You need to protect yourself. 

[ForeverDad]

My ex's behaviors were much like your wife's behaviors.  My lawyer, as good as he was, didn't expect her level of conflict.  He estimated 6 months without children and 7-9 months with children.  I had a 4 year old and the divorce took nearly 2 years.  My spouse had decided I was Mr Evil Personified and refused to talk with me much of the time.  Still, she didn't want to talk to my lawyer either - and he didn't want to talk to her either.

I get the impression you don't have children or they're grown and escaped.  Without custody and parenting issues then the divorce can be dealt with in a businesslike way.  The disordered spouse will make it personal and emotional, circling around her perceptions.  Your task will be to stay on track and as best you can refuse to get drawn into ex's emotions and perceptions.

While I don't have a complete answer for you, it is wise to avoid getting pressured and manipulated, better to divert the Blaming onto the attorney.  "My lawyer told me I can't do that."  See?  Blame a lot of your "sorry, I can't do that" replies to the ex's demands on the lawyer.

[Skip]

People can react really badly when you shut down all lines of communication.

My general advice would be to do both. Channel some communications via attorneys, handle some yourself in a safe way (e.g., 24 hour delayed email responses, not text). Set some ground rules for what gets communicated through which channel, delay email responses anytime she breaks the rules or becomes difficult (your email is upsetting, I'm going to set it aside and reply Friday).

Move yourself away in stages, don't pull the carpet - they will trigger the most severe reaction.

You know her - is that possible?

[MeandThee29]

I did it a few months in. No custody issues, so there really wasn't a reason not to.

We had established that it was going to be disordered and ugly. It was wearing me down and not going anywhere. When my attorney took over, I had a buffer, and he kept it black-and-white. It really didn't start moving until then because he was no-nonsense about the negotiations.

That also opened more dialogue between the attorneys, which is what ultimately got it settled without going to court.

[MeandThee29]

While I don't have a complete answer for you, it is wise to avoid getting pressured and manipulated, better to divert the Blaming onto the attorney.  "My lawyer told me I can't do that."  See?  Blame a lot of your "sorry, I can't do that" replies to the ex's demands on the lawyer.

Or if it works, say, "I'm not sure that's right. Just to be sure, you should discuss that with your lawyer."

Make the lawyer the bad guy who says that something can't be done. That won't work in some situations, but it some it will.

[Boll2017]

Quoth my therapist, "divorce is adversarial by definition."

My dissolution (with kids) was fairly neutral, yet I just got into a text/phone fight this past hour... 6 years after. I'm still angry, and am thus not responding until the morning regarding taking our D7 to the doctor. She hung up on me on the phone.

Given your fresh situation, and her violence, communicating through lawyers might be needed.  You need to protect yourself. 

Thanks.  Glad to hear others using the lawyers as go between.  I know it is the right course for me. It’s a matter of how I implement.

[Boll2017]

My ex's behaviors were much like your wife's behaviors.  My lawyer, as good as he was, didn't expect her level of conflict.  He estimated 6 months without children and 7-9 months with children.  I had a 4 year old and the divorce took nearly 2 years.  My spouse had decided I was Mr Evil Personified and refused to talk with me much of the time.  Still, she didn't want to talk to my lawyer either - and he didn't want to talk to her either.

I get the impression you don't have children or they're grown and escaped.  Without custody and parenting issues then the divorce can be dealt with in a businesslike way.  The disordered spouse will make it personal and emotional, circling around her perceptions.  Your task will be to stay on track and as best you can refuse to get drawn into ex's emotions and perceptions.

While I don't have a complete answer for you, it is wise to avoid getting pressured and manipulated, better to divert the Blaming onto the attorney.  "My lawyer told me I can't do that."  See?  Blame a lot of your "sorry, I can't do that" replies to the ex's demands on the lawyer.

Great advice to divert to the lawyers.  I’ll use that.

[Boll2017]

I did it a few months in. No custody issues, so there really wasn't a reason not to.

We had established that it was going to be disordered and ugly. It was wearing me down and not going anywhere. When my attorney took over, I had a buffer, and he kept it black-and-white. It really didn't start moving until then because he was no-nonsense about the negotiations.

That also opened more dialogue between the attorneys, which is what ultimately got it settled without going to court.

That is exactly my worry.   Getting worn down.  My inclination is to implement when needed vice right away.

[Boll2017]

People can react really badly when you shut down all lines of communication.

My general advice would be to do both. Channel some communications via attorneys, handle some yourself in a safe way (e.g., 24 hour delayed email responses, not text). Set some ground rules for what gets communicated through which channel, delay email responses anytime she breaks the rules or becomes difficult (your email is upsetting, I'm going to set it aside and reply Friday).

Move yourself away in stages, don't pull the carpet - they will trigger the most severe reaction.

You know her - is that possible?

This is the hard part.  Just today she pleaded with me to give her more emotional support.   I was at work all day (I normally telework).   She just can’t be alone.  She says she can’t wait for me to retire so we can be together 24/7.   

 It’s really getting to me.  I have constant anxiety.  I know she will be devastated when I leave.    Tonight she told me she can’t tell her friends everything- it’s only me.

Yet I am exhausted with the endless dependence on me to pick her up when she feuds with people.  She hates my family and I am constantly told I didn’t defend her 20 years ago.  Just the other day she got into a dispute with our neighbors at a party (by her own admission she was drunk but she insists she was mistreated anyway).  I was embarrassed- now I get the cold shoulder from the neighbors.

 Last year when I left, I checked text messages and there she was saying she would commit suicide.  This was a few hours after I walked out.  The next day I called her psychiatrist who told her I called.  Then she was angry at me for telling the psychiatrist.  Later I went back when she told me she drank and took pills in another suicide attempt. 

My strategy now when I leave is to tell her I will check email and voicemail infrequently.   I will block her number (I understand that all she will hear when she calls is voicemail - no indication she is blocked).  I already have her emails going to a folder when they come in so I don’t see them.  I am thinking after some time she will look to others for support.   She does have a close friend and acquaintances.

I need time to detach and regain myself.   She won’t let me do that. 
I can tell her I want a separation.  She will continue to demand I sooth her or else I get all of the guilt she can muster.  Minimal to no contact is the only way I know at this point to do.

Thanks again for listening.  I am open to any advice.  I really feel alone right now.

[ForeverDad]

Yet I am exhausted with the endless dependence on me to pick her up when she feuds with people.  She hates my family and I am constantly told I didn’t defend her 20 years ago.  Just the other day she got into a dispute with our neighbors at a party (by her own admission she was drunk but she insists she was mistreated anyway).

There was a paperback, "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!"  The pwBPD did recover after intensive sessions.  It's a dysfunctional dance, pull you close when you decide to step away, moving away when you want to get close.

I too experienced the ages-old claims of earlier years.  The person just wouldn't let it go.  I was also pressured to apologize.  Unfortunately, one apology wasn't enough.  It became repeated and even had to be worded the right way.  After a year of trying the appeasing route I said, "That's it, no more, I will apologize only when it is merited."  (Yes, the marriage ended within a year after that, but it was imploding anyway.)

[worriedStepmom]

Have you thought about what you will do if she calls you with suicidal ideations again?  (My recommendation would be to call the police for a welfare check.  They have experts who can respond immediately.)

You'll also need to think through what you'll do if she shows up at your new residence or at work.  When my H cut most contact with his ex (8 years after their divorce; they have a child), she started showing up at our house unannounced and demanding to talk to him/crying on our front porch.  For months, he'd go outside and talk to her to try to get her to leave.  She started coming more often.  Her bad behavior was being rewarded.
 (Finally, I put my foot down and told her I'd report her for trespassing if she came back.  That stopped pretty soon after that.)

Divorce is hard.  Neither my ex nor I have personality disorders, but when he left I was lost because I had relied on him for all of my emotional support.  I had to learn how to rely on myself and build a new community.   It was easiest for me to do this with minimal contact (had kids so no contact wasn't feasible).  Your STBX will have a hard time.  That's to be expected.  Hopefully she will find another method of support, but you will have to have very strict boundaries if you don't want to continue to play that role for her.

[Skip]

Have you thought about what you will do if she calls you with suicidal ideations again?  (My recommendation would be to call the police for a welfare check.  They have experts who can respond immediately.)

If you are thinking to use this tactic, I would strongly suggest that you dial up a  relative and let them deal with it.

A a third party called-in suicide call is going to result in cops with guns being dispatched. It is very different than when a person calls a suicide hotline and they are talked into surrendering to police for help.

In this day and age, the priority on a third party called-in suicide call is to prevent innocent bystanders and police from getting shot. The increase of suicide by cop has the police jumpy.

You don't want anyone to charge you with making a false call to get even.

If you call a family member, they will call her, she will likely pick up the phone, and they can sort it out.

Killed on a suicide call...

[ForeverDad]

Yes, let the professionals handle it.  (Or start with her relatives.)  However, most of the suicidal claims we hear turn out to be control demands to keep us involved.  It's not our responsibility to determine which it is, manipulation or actual mental state.

Since it's very likely the ex will Deny being suicidal, we better have some proof that our actions were appropriate.   I recorded my ex.  Technically it was to prove I wasn't the one acting poorly.  Of course the end result was that it documented what she was doing.

[livednlearned]

I know she will be devastated when I leave. 

Yet I am exhausted with the endless dependence on me

You're both likely at different stages of the relationship. Divorce will pull this out and magnify where each of you are at. It can be helpful to know that these normal stages occur and don't typically sync up.

Last year when I left, I checked text messages and there she was saying she would commit suicide.  This was a few hours after I walked out.  The next day I called her psychiatrist who told her I called.  Then she was angry at me for telling the psychiatrist.  Later I went back when she told me she drank and took pills in another suicide attempt. 

How do you feel about having a safety plan (for her, to help you) in place since it seems possible she could try this again. You'll probably have to do this without her input. The safety plan is created during lower stress and includes a run-through of what you'll do when things hit high emotion.

What is your relationship with the close friend like?

Often the most volatile time in a divorce is the immediate aftermath. Both of you will be feeling intensely -- many of us are prone to emotional reactivity. It's ok to take pains to do what's necessary to ground yourself. With someone who is BPD, that might mean letting her know in advance how you will be communicating and then sticking to the plan.   

When you do communicate, email is probably the most manageable, especially with (BIFF, or Brief, Information, Friendly, Firm).

Others can help you finesse the language as you get the hang of it.

Many of us tend to be riddled guilt when we leave and it shows up in our language (vulnerable).

[MeandThee29]

You're both likely at different stages of the relationship. Divorce will pull this out and magnify where each of you are at. It can be helpful to know that these normal stages occur and don't typically sync up.
 
When you do communicate, email is probably the most manageable, especially with (BIFF, or Brief, Information, Friendly, Firm).

Both of those links are worth a periodic re-read even for those of us in the post-divorce phase.

[Boll2017]

In this day and age, the priority on a third party called-in suicide call is to prevent innocent bystanders and police from getting shot. The increase of suicide by cop has the police jumpy.

If you call a family member, they will call her, she will likely pick up the phone, and they can sort it out.

Killed on a suicide call...

Hadn’t thought of this.  She has no family other than mother in nursing home.  I have her friend in my contacts.  That would be my go to.   Also, I contacted the local county police (big dept in large metro area).  They said it is ok to request a wellness check.  Agree with being thoughtful before using this option.

[Boll2017]

Yes, let the professionals handle it.  (Or start with her relatives.)  However, most of the suicidal claims we hear turn out to be control demands to keep us involved.  It's not our responsibility to determine which it is, manipulation or actual mental state.

Since it's very likely the ex will Deny being suicidal, we better have some proof that our actions were appropriate.   I recorded my ex.  Technically it was to prove I wasn't the one acting poorly.  Of course the end result was that it documented what she was doing.

Recording calls is illegal in my state unless both parties agree.  However, my plan to only communicate in writing in the beginning.   Last time the suicide threat was a text so I had it in writing. 

[Boll2017]

You're both likely at different stages of the relationship. Divorce will pull this out and magnify where each of you are at. It can be helpful to know that these normal stages occur and don't typically sync up.
 

How do you feel about having a safety plan (for her, to help you) in place since it seems possible she could try this again. You'll probably have to do this without her input.

What is your relationship with the close friend like?

Often the most volatile time in a divorce is the immediate aftermath. Both of you will be feeling intensely -- many of us are prone to emotional reactivity. It's ok to take pains to do what's necessary to ground yourself. With someone who is BPD, that might mean letting her know in advance how you will be communicating and then sticking to the plan.  

When you do communicate, email is probably the most manageable, especially with (BIFF, or Brief, Information, Friendly, Firm

Thanks for the tips.  No close friends but one brother who is supportive - he lives on the west coast and I am on the East.   Agree  written communication is best.  My profession has taught me to be careful with words in emails.  I’ll need that discipline