Coming Back Up For Air

[UBPDHelp]

So, an update.

Things have just been horrible...quiet, but horrible.

H has said he’s given up on us.  I think I have too.

He is only interested in how he feels.  I saw this virus coming — out of work and too much time watching the news. I mentioned it mid-Feb (we had a trip we canceled b/c he left for 4 days and we rescheduled for May at which time I questioned whether we should go b/c reports were this was coming).

I started doing some prep which he thought was nonsense so I just stopped talking about it.  He can’t watch the news and never does anymore.  I get it can be stressful, but burying your head in the sand is a bit stressful too...at least it is to me.

Fast forward, he didn’t go to work last week and now they’ve closed the state to nonessential workers (he can go to work b/c he qualifies as essential). Doesn’t work from home, thinks he’ll only be home another week.  Doesn’t know the state shut everything for a month and only asks me for a general update every couple of days.  He cannot handle the truth and freaks out if any reference is made.

He could work. He watches tv all day.  Gets up late, stays up late (which I believe contributes to stress, but he doesn’t).

He wants to change jobs, but even though he’s not working, he isn’t looking for something else (I get this isn’t really the time with so much uncertainty). 

So he’s now 4 weeks behind on pay with no end in sight.  He’ll not work last week and probably not next week or even the next month.  We’ll probably lose health insurance and even if he goes back in a few weeks, it will take weeks to get paid if he just watches tv all day.

I’ve gone to supermarket, gotten gas to go get my son from college (remote rest of semester), am “teaching” my younger 2 with schools closed. He’s watching tv.  And, he’s telling my oldest to quit his job, rent an apartment in a city (where currently the virus is rapidly spreading).  I pulled son aside and said to be cautious because this is a huge risk. I would not allow him to go until the virus is actually gone, but being obligated to pay rent with strong possibility of no income could ruin his financial future.  Like what?  Son has been wanting to go and has a hard time understanding this new situation.  It is uncertain for everyone which makes me believe no big changes are in order, at least of the intentional kind.

Anyway, that is the backdrop of what is happening.  But my H is stressed (a ton of physical evidence — facial tics, knee bouncing 100mph, etc) and will not discuss.

He mostly refuses to eat with us.  But then yesterday he actually took some food I had set for another meal and ate half of it.  Under normal circumstances I wouldn’t care so much but I can’t easily get to supermarket and even if I could, the store has been half empty. So wtf?

I am immune compromised (he doesn’t believe, or care). I am trying to feed 6 people and not expose myself or anyone else and he eats half of a meal. 

And, he’s only concerned that I’m not trying to have sex with him (soothing him, ugh) everyday.  The ole vacation threat “we’ll talk about splitting when we get home” is now “we’ll talk about splitting when the pandemic is over.”

I’ve given him back rubs (trying to help distress), watched a zillion hours of tv (what he wants to watch) and is mad because I haven’t made him feel better.  He has not once asked me how I’m doing.  Not once.

I’m stressed. Protecting my kids, myself, even him.  Cleaning all the faucets, door knobs, surfaces, washing dishes 3x a day, doing laundry, getting groceries, etc.  Worried about how to pay for anything or what to pay when there’s no money coming in and the likelihood he won’t be able to pay health insurance next month with the threat of the virus looming.

He has not asked how I’m doing.  This is only happening to him. Just like everything else.

Sorry for the rant...

Don’t even know if there’s advice to be given...just letting you know what’s going on with me.

Hope you’re all well and safe.

[Cat Familiar]

It’s a “luxury” currently that he has the option to not eat a meal you’ve prepared. The future might be quite different.

During this stressful time, we will have to cut each other a lot of slack and decide to hold off on making big life decisions. One foot in front of the other...for the foreseeable future.

[Face of Melinda]

Hello.

I so relate to your post. I've been nervous with my spouse eeking out a living with one contract now for months and what will happen to us once this recession really hits. Yes I do all the coronavirus "home-schooling", cooking, cleaning, shopping, while working... And for some reason this morning I felt we were getting along and forgot once again that... Nope. No way to get along. He was in bed until noon as he stays up late into the night writing... I enjoined him to come to the table and have his coffee while I ate lunch... Thinking that he could be adult company for me... He grumbles to go wash up and get dressed and sits at the table with a loud video about terrorism and complaining about it. Of course he has no radar for the fact that I want to have a pleasant meal together and when I asked him to turn it off he was mortally offended. I keep forgetting I live with an irrational person who will rarely be available for a request of mine unless he happens to feel like it. It reminded me of the Buddhist teaching to value your life in all aspects and it's so painful for me to watch a man who can't enjoy his home, wife, family and just feels put-upon by us. He came because I asked him to but begrudgingly and spoiled it. Feels like the rest of the day is spoiled. I guess this is a minor complaint given all the others I read here.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Cat,

I agree!  I am reading up on regrowing lettuce and other vegetables and trying to figure out how/when I can plant a garden.  I grew up with a huge garden but we live in an area with a lot of deer and critters so I haven’t put in the effort to figure that out.  The time is now. I have never felt ungrateful for what I have, including a hot meal and roof over my head.

The kicker is, he finished off the other half yesterday and then looks at me at 11pm and tells me no more supermarket this week.  Under normal times, I would find this ridiculous (and honestly he wouldn’t say it), but I am super conscious of the inherent risks at this point.

We have soup and pasta so we’ll be okay for a week, but no milk and little “fresh” food so gonna be a lot of frozen. That’s fine and least of my concerns right now, but, as you know, it’s just the total selfishness that he solely ate a meal meant for 6 people when food cannot be easily replaced.

Hope you’re doing well. And thanks for the feedback.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Melinda,

Thanks for the reply. My H also stays up late and sleeps in late.  It’s definitely a FOMO situation (with himself, I don’t get it).  I know when I stay up super late and then sleep in (which I rarely, rarely do), I feel terrible the next day(s). Feel down in the dumps, unenergetic, just terrible.  He does this virtually every night.  Do I know it makes him feel terrible?  No, not for sure, but I’ve seen evidence many times.

And I get the adult conversation.  My H will not watch the news, won’t discuss Coronavirus. Takes a lot of effort to steer around when it’s impacting every aspect of life.  Decisions have to be made. 

Options — discuss the financial ramifications and trigger the rage while we’re stuck inside

Don’t discuss, carry the burden, make the decisions that need to be made and then get blamed when he comes up for air when this is over.

True, I’m avoiding the discussion based on past responses, and that may not be fair, but how do you have a normal adult, married discussion when you know you’re going to get screamed at no matter what.  Not normal. 

Trying to keep things even keel for now, but am concerned I may break if this goes on too long. 

I hope you’re doing well.  Thanks for sharing your story.

[formflier]

Did you ask him directly and clearly NOT to eat certain things?

What about clarifying what is "on the menu"?

We've redoubled our efforts to make sure nothing goes to waste and that all leftovers get eaten.  That requires much more communication.

Big picture:  Ask for what you want/need and then go about your business.  Sounds like watching TV with him is not really helping...why continue?

Hang in there!

Best,

FF

[Face of Melinda]

I relate to wanting to soothe him and for him to take better care of himself and be more rational... I think I gave up on that a long time ago and just kind of shrug my shoulders because he's stubborn and will do what he wants... I occasionally tell him he needs to go to bed earlier or get up from the computer or rehydrate or something but I'm limited on how long I'll listen to him rant. He doesn't try screaming at me anymore. When he tries to ramp out  I'll say, Are you trying to intimidate me and that seems to stop him. But yes I'd echo that it's frustrating to have those two options; to risk a fight or stuff it... and how much I'd like to dialogue with him. I walked in and dialogued with him today about finances for a few minutes and I always feel so much better just getting it out even if nothing is resolved. Then I feel closer to him and less like he's the enemy. He thinks he's got a contract coming through soon. I don't know whether it'll come to pass or not but I guess he's survived this long. Being self-employed is a tough road. I'm so glad we chatted. I feel like someone else out there truly understands.

[UBPDHelp]

Hello FF,

The voice of reason!  No, I did not tell him not to eat it.  He has specific snacks he munches on when he wants something so it never occurred to me to tell him not to eat something that was clearly for a family meal (it was meat, so kind of the base of the meal).  And I do feel grateful we had it b/c I also want to keep my family healthy and strong in case we do get exposed. For as long as that is possible.

I canNOT meal plan with him or even say what’s on the agenda. He gets quite angry if I tell him my plans or even question his (only to coordinate, this is not questioning/grilling). He does not want to hear it b/c he believes I’m putting on a show.

This is a side thing, but so similar I want your thoughts...much like doesn’t want the agenda (he also won’t really discuss his or the kids’ agendas either). But, he also won’t let me or anyone see the GPS when we’re traveling (sounds stupid and like a little thing). It’s bizarre but a fight I gave up on a long time ago. But he also does this if we’re just walking somewhere (out of town). For instance, we were checking where my SIL is moving in a big metro area. We were “in the neighborhood” so H said we should check it out.  He would not give me the address so I just had to blindly follow him. Stuff like that...it’s hard to explain and I don’t even know why I put up with it.  My best guess is that these were all little quirks originally but inevitably when they are grouped and we’re just in this crazy place.

Today he came down and told my youngest son he didn’t have to do the school work (he’s 10).  The kids are doing distance learning with specific lessons, etc.  I was like, no, he needs to do this work today and we’re almost through it.  When my son left, I told H that they had assignments and they will be doing this for a while, if not the rest of the year.  He freaked out b/c mr. know it all has his head buried in the sand and thought we were done this week. Like why do I have a 2 year old?

He told me he couldn’t wait til this was over, that I was a fat hillbilly and he would leave. Then he walked all over the house a hundred miles an hour.  And then he vacuumed (he never does, but the house was all of a sudden not clean enough).  Idk, you don’t help with laundry, cooking, cleaning, garbage, really anything and now you see a dust bunny and have to vacuum 3 area rugs like a lunatic. — sorry, venting.

And, then he sits on the couch the rest of the day watching sitcoms.  Meanwhile everyone else he works with is actually working from home.

But I’m stuck in so many ways but I honestly don’t care anymore. If the response to wanting to have an adult conversation about how to pay the bills when you haven’t brought home a check in 5 weeks (which we did NOT get to b/c kids school set him off) results in personal attacks, it’s just hopeless. May not be what I want, but I can never have that. I just want peace.  Not ever present peace, just normal peace.

And, just so I’m clear, I have no issue working. I can’t make nearly what he does and he is the one who wanted me to be home with the kids (not that I didn’t want to, it just felt like a luxury and I’ve worked from home at least PT for 20 years) but I always want to contribute. 

Sorry FF, this rant is in no way directed at anything you said, I’ve just been really spent by this today.  He does not want me to have stability and I’m just so tired from that that it makes dealing with real life problems excruciating.

And, I don’t care that these are stressful times for him. They’re stressful times for me and my kids and everyone else but I’m not calling him a worthless piece or pointing out his flaws. He has not right but he will never change. It’s a lost cause.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi again Melinda,

It’s funny you say that. I always feel better, and tell him so, when we’ve talked about it.  I think that when he’s dysregulated he uses that knowledge to make me feel unstable (see last note, my wonderful H likes me to feel unstable, sick twist is all I can say).  But he’s always simmering lately that I’m physically falling apart from the stress.  What am I going to get? Can I tell him something broke or we don’t have enough for this right now?  How soon will I get blamed for this bill or that bill being late?

I’d so much rather live under our means. He wants to push everything. Makes him feel alive.

Here’s an example...when my oldest went to college, his car lease was up. We were looking to replace it and he said, I’ll take your old car and you get a new car since you drive the big one for the family so that will be newer. I said 500 times — are you sure?  Yes.  I thought it was actually a good idea and nice, but I was fine with my “old” car (we had just paid it off) so was okay either way.  We ended up replacing my car and he took my old one (it had like 80k miles so had a lot of life left in it and paid off!). This lasted 2 months and then he had to buy himself a new car. I was so hurt by this but he makes the money.  Meanwhile a month later we had two in college and every tuition payment was a huge challenge, but hey we had new cars. I’m still pi$$ed about it 3-4 years later.

I’m getting older (even though this bs makes me feel like a child) and I really would like stability in my life. I have family on one side that has dementia and I am afraid I’ll be down that path in 20 years.  Will he take care of me? Nope.  He doesn’t even ask me how I’m doing now. 

I told a story some time ago that we got a new puppy in the winter that I was responsible for training and would run out with him often without a coat to avoid an accident. I got a cough and H was annoyed listening to me and told me to go to the doctor.  It was the holidays and I just hadn’t taken the time to go. But when I did, I had pneumonia.  You know what he said when I told him?  Say thank you.

Yep.

I was on antibiotics and inhalers, hosting 20+ people and never got any sympathy, an are you okay.  Nothing. But, yea, thanks.

Anyway, we all get here through some unbelievable roads for sure.  Not sure this helps anyone but me.

I, too, appreciate the support and hearing your story...nice to not be alone.  Thank you.

Take care.

[formflier]

I'm wondering if you can practice with a SET

https://bpdfamily.com/parenting/04.htm

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0


Have the truth be something along the lines of "during stressful times it's important we talk about kid stuff ahead of time (privately) and present a united front to the kids"

don't shame him by bringing up that he told a kid not to do work.

Perhaps ask him for ideas on how to keep the kids focused on extra work for school.  (not just the minimum, but help the kids excel)

Depending on how this goes, I think you should follow that up in a day or two with a talk about "the menu" with the entire family (do NOT direct it at hubby...but make sure the message is out there)

For instance (you can take from fruit bowl without asking..always...and please always ask the cook before getting in (fill in the blank).

Don't personalize it...don't say ask me or ask Mommy ...you are asking "the role" (who is the cook).

The follow that up with rotating the cooking duties.  Offer the hubby but don't try to force. 

Kids...well they get no choice.

Big picture:   Let this be a time when everyone has the chance to step up.  But don't shame those that don't. 

My guess is he will take a few small steps and the kids will take some massive ones.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF,

Wondering if you’re available to sit in my LR and help mediate and direct my life...jk.

I admire you for your very even keel and applaud you that you’ve gotten to this place. I wonder how you manage to keep it all in focus.

I feel like I have a plan but then stuff comes up with kids, distractions with finances, H threatening to quit his job, my health not being great (not horrible and some of it totally my fault) and I feel like I’m going in so many directions and ultimately lose my footing.

So, would you be willing to better dialogue this exchange?

Sitting in family room with son doing schoolwork.

H: what are you doing?
Me: working on son’s schoolwork
H: son, you don’t have to do it. This is stupid.
Me: well they are asking the kids to do their schoolwork and they are recording attendance so we’re doing that.  (Some frustration b/c he gets the emails and has the info available but he ignores it).

Let son finish assignment.  Then I explain to him that the kids are expected to stay on track.  I tell him it may be for a month or more (he would know this if he watched any news or would talk about it).

And then

H: you’re just like your father (was a teacher and H hated him for imagined slights (he died last year). It’s disgusting. You’re a fat hillbilly.

This is knee jerk because he is now freaked out about Coronavirus.

And, it’s definitely something I have to work on but under times of added stress when everyone is stuck inside, I feel like I can’t ratchet things up and yet I know this is reinforcing the bad behavior.

So, what is a better response? 

I hate having to run multiple scenarios and anticipate responses. Who has time (or energy) for it? 

And, I saw you mention your story on Ozzie’s post.  I’d love to hear it (just assumed you were always this put together

[UBPDHelp]

Idk why the bottom of my post cut off...

I hate having to run multiple scenarios and anticipate responses. Who has time (or energy) for it? 

And, I saw you mention your story on Ozzie’s post.  I’d love to hear it (just assumed you were always this put together .

Would you be willing to share it again or a link to it? 

I learn so much from others’ experiences.

Thank you, thank you!

(figured out it didn’t like the emoji I used so cut everything off after that point)

[formflier]

How about I find some time later today and do a quick version of "my story" (still being written by the way...although I am very excited about the chapters I'm writing now)

Think about that for a second...
 
Did I mention what chapter my wife is writing (actually writing some good ones as well...but that's her book...not mine). 

Big picture:  Stop reading other peoples books and then figuring out what book you can write..that will make their story come out the way you want them to write it.

Write your book...they can read it...or not. 

Said another way stop "reacting" to people and "act" in your life.

Once you are "reacting" to them, you are already behind the 8 ball.  That's why I like "getting out in front" of it with a family meeting or a Mom and kids meeting if  he declines.

He may decline and threaten to quit his job or heaven forbid he may start an affair with Dorothy from wizard of oz.  Or he may hide boogers under the kitchen table in retaliation...

As far as the fat hillbilly stuff...don't listen to it and/or react very differently.    You'll have to play around with this some.  A giggle as you walk from the room or just walk from the room.  (I can't imagine "arguing" will help, I'm guessing it is "feeding" a need he has).

As far as when he tells children they don't have to do work...look at your kid, perhaps put an a hand on his arm "That's not true.  You know what you have to do, I'll check on your progress in an hour."  (leave the room)

Again..don't feed any of the dysfunction.

Do you see the "approach" I'm taking?  None of the "how could you say this?"

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF,

I do but he’s super passive aggressive and I’m fairly convinced he’s trying to push me to break.

This afternoon I decided to “plan” a last restock of essentials so we really could just stay in for a couple weeks. Conversation started okay but quickly turned. He flips about the pandemic and starts asking questions. I tried to tell him some positives and he just flips and tells me I’m stupid and don’t know anything—cute b/c then why does he constantly ask my opinion?  I know, so there’s someone to blame.

So he calmed down somewhat quickly but there were some veiled “divorce” comments. I tried to SET by acknowledging that this is a tough time, that I know how hard it is for him (being the only germ-a-phob currently being affected  ) and then telling him my truth.

He was sort of accepting of this but then a couple of comments again and I decided to follow up with what he meant.

He said I was trying to make him the bad guy so he’d have to tell the kids he was divorcing me. So his desire to get a divorce is now my responsibility for “forcing” him. 

I mean I have a lot of responsibility for being blind to this for so long and allowing it to get out of control AND, I am not perfect.  I can be annoying, introverted, loud, stick my foot in my mouth. But I’m also loyal and loving and supportive and strong and funny and I give good hugs.

I think if I giggle, he’ll go off. If I walk out of the room, he’ll also get mad. I don’t really care, but if I let my kids see him talk to me that way, then they believe it’s okay.

So, I’ll do this when it’s just the two of us.  But, any ideas if the kids are around?

FF, I have so much respect for you but I don’t know that I can do this.  He’s not interested and has convinced himself that he doesn’t want to be here. He wants out and he’s trying to convolute my past to give him an excuse so it’s not his fault. I think I finally see it. What’s the point?

[formflier]

He "says" he wants out. 

If this is true, help me understand his remaining presence.  (or did I miss the post about you chaining him to yourself?)

If this is not true, then help me understand the reasons such things come out of his mouth.


What are the implications for each of the "pathways to truth" above?

The kid thing:  Isn't it important to model healthy behavior in front of your children?  Is it fair to say "more important"?  There is massive wisdom in the words you used describing that your children might see these things as "normal" or "ok".

Best,

FF

[formflier]

And, I saw you mention your story on Ozzie’s post.  I’d love to hear it (just assumed you were always this put together .

Would you be willing to share it again or a link to it? 
 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343745.new#new

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Code:

 He "says" he wants out.  

If this is true, help me understand his remaining presence.  (or did I miss the post about you chaining him to yourself?) 

There are definitely invisible chains. I allowed myself to be financially dependent on him BECAUSE I believed he was telling me the truth. When stress was minor, we managed to navigate, but stress has continued to increase the past however many years that now his behavior is out of control.  

Code:

If this is not true, then help me understand the reasons such things come out of his mouth.

He remains because he doesn’t want to be the bad guy. He doesn’t want the kids to blame him SO he’s being constantly evil to GET ME to be the bad guy.  Funny thing is, the kids (except my youngest) are keenly aware of his behavior (not the content).

Code:

What are the implications for each of the "pathways to truth" above?

I’m not sure here...can you give me an idea what an option might be? I can reframe it for my circumstance.

Code:

The kid thing:  Isn't it important to model healthy behavior in front of your children?  Is it fair to say "more important"?  There is massive wisdom in the words you used describing that your children might see these things as "normal" or "ok".

I am ashamed that I have allowed this and that I have been a horrible example for them. Absolutely and totally ashamed. They deserved better.

And ultimately I just don’t want to live like this. Relationships are hard but this is near impossible. The games and insults and belittling.

It’s funny (not haha funny), I always feel in tough times closer to my loved ones and with an appreciation for the blessings I do have.

His concern?  This isn’t fun and we don’t have enough fun.  We should have taken the trip in Feb, which we didn’t because he had a meltdown and left for four days. But it’s my fault because I’m a slut, a hillbilly, fill in the blank, so he had no choice but to get away.

And, he’s on Facebook all day, which he’s told me a hundred times is how people hook up with old flames (doesn’t say he is, he’s far too good of a person to have an affair, but does comment otherwise on occasion).  Needless to say I don’t have a FB acct — can you imagine the insanity if I did?

I wish there was the possibility of a happy path forward. I just don’t see it.

And, thank you for sharing your story. I do remember reading it before.  Your wife seems willing to work with you and even recognize that she may need some occasional help. And is blessed with a patient husband.

Maybe the real problem is that my H is also quite narcissistic and never sees that anything he does is a problem, even if it’s just a part of it. So no reason to change what he’s doing. Feelings = facts.

Had a super crazy night tonight. I’ll share tomorrow as I’m absolutely exhausted from it all.  

I hate being cooped up but I will say, it is forcing me to really think paths forward through a bit better.

Bless you for your help.

[formflier]

"Getting better" is rarely a one and done thing.  Peoples problem/habits/reasons are complex and many times painful to look at.

Yes, thankfully my wife is doing much better.  One of the things that has provided her a new perspective is her job as a public school teacher.  She has a knack for figuring out a way to motivate kids from disordered and/or poor families.  Her test score improvements with this "population" is noteworthy.

That has led to her being invited onto a crisis team and getting extra training in dealing with difficult/highly emotional kids.  "Corporal punishment" isn't allowed any more, but specially trained staff are able to physically restrain a child (think bear hug) and rock them until they calm.

So...imagine my surprise when my wife wanted to start talking about validation and invalidation, what to do when a person's amygdala has been hijacked..etc etc.

Learning tools for her to use in her marriage is "no good", but if she learns tools to help children..that's ok.  The first one brings up shame that she should have "known better", the second is praiseworthy.

So...if she learns stuff for kids and then happens to apply it to her marriage...all the better.   I've noticed her trying to "use tools" on me and I make sure I respond in the appropriate way...

Anyway...I'll respond to your questions in a few min.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Here is the answer I see in you..to my questions.

Your hubby doesn't "want" to leave...regardless of what he says.  His mouth says one thing and his feet do another.

Look at his feet much more than you listen to his mouth.

I'm going to say that your "figuring out" why he stays is NOT helpful.  I don't believe he stays because he doesn't want to be the bad guy.  I simply don't. 

I believe he stays because he wants you and he goes about expressing that in really odd/dysfunctional ways.

Again...if he wanted to leave, he would be gone...long ago.

So his words about leaving ...aren't about that.  They are about his feelings

Say that to yourself over and over again, if you build your responses based on that...much much MUCH more likely to get a positive result.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

He remains because he doesn’t want to be the bad guy.

hmmmmmm.    maybe, maybe not.

I think that all of us who post here believe,  (or did once believe) that pwBPD or NPD process emotions the same way we do.  that at a deeply internal emotional level the presumptions that guide us are the same.

I think this is a misnomer.    I think this is incorrect.

In his other thread FF said:  

 I did need to accept that she sometimes "saw" the world in ways that didn't make sense to me.  

my experience has been that pwBPD,  experience life, process life events,  live through/go through life with core level assumptions that are uniquely different from ours.   that doesn't make them right or wrong... just different.

I would say that 95% of my Ex's behaviors were frantic attempts to cover and protect the wound she had deep in her personality.     that her behaviors were chaotic attempts to live with the reality of not being whole.     that was hard for me to understand for a long time.   what did it mean to have an unstable sense of self?    

for my Ex it meant needing to be in control of all the events around her.   it made her feel safe.   it made her feel whole.     if she wasn't in control of all the events,... and all the people around her...things were wrong.   and it couldn't be her fault because she was clearly working very hard to control things.   now for me, one of my core level assumptions is that controlling another persons behavior is a not a positive thing.    for my Ex,.. controlling another persons behavior was absolutely essential for survival.     much different ways of processing life.

let's see if I can come up with an example.    years ago, I had a very bad day.  one of the worst in my life.   my now Ex, then partner, was with me that day and became very upset.     as the day progressed she finally screamed at me "you need to take more care of my feelings and my mood".     she was protecting her core wound you see.    and she had come to rely on me also protecting her core wound, and that day I couldn't do it.    I was busy coming apart at the seams myself.   and she felt threatened.   she felt at risk.    she felt that she was more in danger that day then I was... and she screamed at me.

that was much of the relationship really.  for me and my Ex.

I think your H calls you names and baits you so he can feel that sense of control.  so he doesn't feel threatened.     so his unstable sense of self feels secure.    

that's a lot to process.

what do you think?


'ducks  

[formflier]

I generally try to talk people out of "spending energy" of figuring out "why" the other person (pwBPD) does things.  Usually much better to spend the energy on why you do your own stuff...and how that impacts/influences others.

That being said, my psychologist did help me understand my wife's core wound.  (I'm very blessed that my wife spent enough time with my psychologist that my P was able to figure most of her stuff out)

Then my P was able to coach me that any time I felt I needed to tell me wife she was "wrong" (or could have done something better) that I was slicing into VERY RAW WOUNDS.

I learned to used the phrase "and also" instead of "but". 

I can't remember the last time I told her I thought she was wrong. 

Now if I want something done a particular way I ask her what she thinks of my idea and let her compare it to "her way".

Anyway I doubt I could have figured all that out without professional guidance...so I think my general advice still stands. 

If you ever get a chance to understand your pwBPD's wounds...tread carefully...but also realize that understanding will most likely help.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

I agree that 'core wounds' is deep and complex stuff.

I also agree that keeping the focus on the decisions we make and why we make them is most helpful.

still I would advocate that reaching an honest understanding of how decisions and choices are made, what feelings, ideas and emotions drive behavior ... will help bring clarity.

for a long time I operated from a position that my Ex and I shared like minded thinking, goals, assumptions, beliefs and expectations.     I am still amazed at how wrong I was about that.

  He wants to push everything. Makes him feel alive.

he wants to push everything.    it makes him feel like his 'outside', his external world, matches his inside, his internal world.    it makes him feel alive.   it makes him feel whole.

accepting the honest truth of that... is part of reacting differently.

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF,

I’m going to respond to your recent replies and then separately share the past two days for your thoughts and see if you still stand where you are on this.

 

I generally try to talk people out of "spending energy" of figuring out "why" the other person (pwBPD) does things.  Usually much better to spend the energy on why you do your own stuff...and how that impacts/influences others.

I do understand that I can only truly control my why. But it is just exhausting to live in a constant state of turmoil.

For instance, I get up earlier and will land in the family room to veg out to some tv shows I enjoy (think home improvement). He hates it so when he comes down, he’ll watch for a sec and then take the remote and change the channel. I didn’t think this would persist and honestly it just morphed into entitlement. If I balk, then I get screamed at.

Options — get yelled at, watch only what he wants when he’s around, or go do something else which is not what I want to be doing. It’s a lose-lose-lose.  Who would live like that?

I’m glad your P was able to shed some light for you and it helped you frame your response, successfully at that.

I learned to used the phrase "and also" instead of "but".

Can you spell out the difference here?  I don’t do well with abstract concepts much anymore. My brain is too tired.

I can't remember the last time I told her I thought she was wrong.

Not only can I not tell him he’s wrong ever, he needs to be told he’s the smartest, best.  He takes credit for every good idea (some are his) and deflects blame for every bad one.

At the beginning of our relationship we were set to meet up.  He walked say a mile to meet me and realized he had left his keys. He told me it was my fault because he had to come to meet me. I thought he was being sweet (distracted and couldn’t wait to see me) but no, he was pissed and believed it was my fault. I have joked that he could convince me I’d been to moon even though we all know I haven’t.

So stupidly naive that I thought this was cute, funny.  I didn’t know it was masterfully intended to control me and bring me down. Sometimes I wish I would wake up and it would be 25 years ago and I could tell him to take a hike. But then I wouldn’t have my kids and realize I’d put up with all of it to have them. But what have I done to them?

He may be full of hot air, but honestly I’m done taking it. I can’t live like this anymore. 

Please see my next post for the last two days.

[UBPDHelp]

Update...

Yesterday he freaked out and pulled everything out of the pantry. He was mad b/c I tried to stretch our food for dinner. While he was aggressively pulling everything out he broke a couple of my new drinking glasses on purpose. He put my good China tea cup (dirty) under the couch and denies it (he drinks his coffee in them. Only one who does). 

Told me to clean it up (the stuff from the pantry) and only put real food back.  It is all real food. Two cans of soup that expired at end of February at the back of a deep corner cabinet. Sorry, been busy.

Tonight he was so so but around 7 I asked him if he wanted some dinner. Made a full lunch. Told him options and he said he didn’t know and that I should feed the kids, which I said I was but was going to see what he wanted first (avoid repeating last night).  Still wouldn’t tell me.

Made steak sandwiches, but he didn’t eat these but instead asked me to make him oatmeal. I did and he ate that.

Then a while later he makes ice cream and asks me and my son if we want any. I didn’t, he did. Then he starts going on about how it’s terrible ice cream. I look at him and say okay, sorry. He tells me that there’s a reason it was the only ice cream left and never buy it again.  I say okay again.

But then he starts freaking out and asks me if I ordered meat online.  I tell him that I'm trying to find the right package but that they’re kind of expensive. Thought I would check with the local butcher tomorrow (which we talked about 2 days ago). This sets him off because it was 2 days ago. BUT I ended up going to the supermarket in a mad dash that night and bought 6 pounds of ground beef, chicken wings (all the chicken they had), a roast, pork chops so didn’t need more meat now and limited ways to keep fresh/frozen. I bought milk and pasta and a few other necessities.

Never good enough.

He looks at me and says he knows at the end of this we’re getting divorced that if he has to tell me again he will break every electronic in the house including my phone, computer, and the tv. Tells me I can take a car and drive to fu@$ing home (where I grew up 1500 miles away, my entire family is gone (dead) except for my estranged sister on the other side of country) and that I’m a goddamn hillbilly.

Although I do not want to drag the kids into it all, my oldest son was in the room and heard the whole thing. (And told me that H was on Facebook last night and saw someone had posted a pic of him and his hs girlfriend and he showed it to him).  I don’t care except he has the delusion that she still loves him (sure she said she always would, but when they broke up he put everything she gave him in a box and dumped it on her head — his story, not mine — not sure she meant it or still does?).

This is so much more than normal, so much more than pandemic.

And, even so, I just don’t want to live like this anymore.

Can you possibly think this relationship can be managed with tools?  These are not occasional or minor outbursts to BIG problems. These are HUMONGOUS outbursts to minor issues.

Open to thoughts/comments. Bless you all...stay well!

[UBPDHelp]

BabyDucks,

Bless you for your reply. I am going to reread your comments and will respond tomorrow because I truly value your input and kind words. It is so helpful to see perspective from others who have gone through these things. 

It’s just that I am so mentally and emotionally exhausted that I don’t think I’m getting out of it everything I need to.

Thank you for taking the time...I’ll be back tomorrow.   Take care!

[babyducks]

It’s just that I am so mentally and emotionally exhausted that I don’t think I’m getting out of it everything I need to.

Hello UBDPHelp,

of course you are exhausted.   anyone would be exhausted living with the stress you describe.   it's perfectly natural to be exhausted.      are you sleeping?    are you sleeping well?   are you eating?     what are you doing for self care?   what are you doing to take care of yourself and give yourself little breaks?    this is a very difficult time.    there is a huge amount of world wide stress and for those of us are in shelter in place situations the stress is even higher.

you are important and you matter.    taking care of yourself... being good to yourself.    finding small tiny ways to recharge your batteries is very important.   i want to encourage you to do something,  anything for yourself today.   put yourself first.

I learned to used the phrase "and also" instead of "but".

Can you spell out the difference here?  I don’t do well with abstract concepts much anymore. My brain is too tired.

the word "but" is super invalidating.   it completely negates  what ever comes before it.   no matter how you use the word 'but' it's an interruption.   it negative, it shuts a conversation down.  it implies blame.

I wanted to go to the gym today but I couldn't get off the sofa.
I wanted to go to the gym today and I couldn't get off the sofa.

can you see an emotional difference in the two sentences?

For instance, I get up earlier and will land in the family room to veg out to some tv shows I enjoy (think home improvement). He hates it so when he comes down, he’ll watch for a sec and then take the remote and change the channel. I didn’t think this would persist and honestly it just morphed into entitlement. If I balk, then I get screamed at.

Options — get yelled at, watch only what he wants when he’s around, or go do something else which is not what I want to be doing. It’s a lose-lose-lose.  Who would live like that?

I can' tell if your "Who would live like that?"  is rhetorical or not.  on the off chance that it's not, I will throw an answer out there for us to kick around.     Who would live like that?  people with low self esteem.    people who have difficulty believing that they deserve better treatment.    people who have difficulty standing up for themselves.    people who are so conditioned to abusive treatment they think its normal.   people who are willing to give up parts of themselves to feel like they belong in something.

yes, right now many of the options are lose-lose-lose.     No one single sentence or tool or phrase will turn this around immediately.    He isn't suddenly going to snap to and say Oh sorry I am being a jerk.   

what becomes a win win win is when you are no longer exposed to his verbal toxicity.    when you are not absorbing his stress and feel calmer, less exhausted, less fried.    that's a win.    when you can walk away and see it as protection against psychological violence.   make sense?

Yesterday he freaked out and pulled everything out of the pantry. He was mad b/c I tried to stretch our food for dinner. While he was aggressively pulling everything out he broke a couple of my new drinking glasses on purpose.

this is concerning UBPDHelp.   what did you do when he broke the glasses on purpose?    did you leave the room?   did you say anything to him?    considering all that is going on in the world can you find a way to put some distance between him and you?   please don't minimize this.  if he is spiraling out of control,   it's important you have a safe space.  a place you can relax in.     obviously I don't know your situation... a sewing room?    a place in the garden?     the bench on the front porch?     some place that would slow his relentless bullying of you?

around 7 I asked him if he wanted some dinner. Made a full lunch. Told him options and he said he didn’t know and that I should feed the kids, which I said I was but was going to see what he wanted first (avoid repeating last night).  Still wouldn’t tell me.

Made steak sandwiches, but he didn’t eat these but instead asked me to make him oatmeal. I did and he ate that.

can the man not make his own oatmeal?     when he said he didn't know what he wanted and that you should feed the kids... did you, or could you say... "okay you are on your own for tonight, please don't eat the lobster newburg that's for tomorrow."

I am a great fan of Sharie Stines, Psy,D.   This is quote from her:

Often times, victims of abuse try to figure out how to not trigger their abuser. It is helpful to realize that many of the triggers are in the mind of the abuser him or herself, so it’s pointless to take any onus of responsibility.

One aspect of the healing journey is to look at your behaviors and how you self-sabotage your own life. One way to begin to identify patterns of self-sabotage is to notice your side of participating in a destructive relationship.  This is not victim blaming, rather it is noticing how you allow yourself to be involved in a destructive situation. 

One aspect of this self-sabotage involves allowing yourself to be mistreated. Here are some ways you may self-sabotage: taking responsibility for other people’s behaviors; acting out and allowing the other person to “push your buttons;” staying around for abuse by minimizing it; staying around for abuse by fighting back; blaming yourself for another person’s poor behaviors; walking on eggshells; putting your emotional energy in a situation that is unsolvable; appeasement; playing “detective;” yelling and screaming; begging; using substances to cope…the list goes on and on.

Stines is correct, in my opinion.    trying to figure out how not to trigger him about food is not possible.    you can't out think him about what he wants or doesn't want for dinner.   there is no perfect answer that will satisfy him.  the only way to respond is to not participate in the dysfunction.    to not be involved.     

He looks at me and says he knows at the end of this we’re getting divorced that if he has to tell me again he will break every electronic in the house including my phone, computer, and the tv. Tells me I can take a car and drive to fu@$ing home (where I grew up 1500 miles away, my entire family is gone (dead) except for my estranged sister on the other side of country) and that I’m a goddamn hillbilly.

again I find this concerning.  the threats of violence.    again I find myself wondering what your response to this was?     how long did you stay in this conversation?   

And, even so, I just don’t want to live like this anymore.

well you don't have too UBDPHelp,   you have choices and options available to you, even though it may not seem like it now.    I would strongly recommend, like I have before, that the first priority is to rebuild your emotional and mental energy.    to put a real serious effort into resolving your exhaustion.     I know that is easier said then done.  you want to make the best choices and decisions you can.     doing that while rested is better.       we are all talking about social distancing right now,   I would encourage you to emotionally distance from your husband for a little while.    to avoid, evade and remove yourself from his drama.    let him rage about the ice cream all he wants,... don't be there to listen to it.

my two cents
'ducks

[formflier]

I'm also concerned about the increasingly threatening and destructive behavior. 

Did you put the things back as he ordered you to do?


"And also".  Yes to what ducks said and also I would add that it might help to get away from black and white.  Might help getting away from I'm right and your wrong.

Sure we can do x for dinner and also we can do Y.

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

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