Coming Back Up For Air part 2

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Mod note: This thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343705.0


Thanks BabyDucks,

of course you are exhausted.   anyone would be exhausted living with the stress you describe.   it's perfectly natural to be exhausted.      are you sleeping?    are you sleeping well?   are you eating?     what are you doing for self care?   what are you doing to take care of yourself and give yourself little breaks?    this is a very difficult time.    there is a huge amount of world wide stress and for those of us are in shelter in place situations the stress is even higher.

I am exhausted. I am sleeping, but not great the last couple of days.  I get up a couple of hours before everyone else. It is when I clear my head. I am eating — overeating as I am an emotional eater, which has to change.  One step at a time.

We are shelter in place. I can go to another part of house but feel like that’s rewarding him for his bad behavior — at least think he will believe he has won and that what he is doing is “right”.  Maybe I need to change that mindset?

you are important and you matter.

   

Thank you. That means more than you know, but you probably do know.

the word "but" is super invalidating.   it completely negates  what ever comes before it.   no matter how you use the word 'but' it's an interruption.   it negative, it shuts a conversation down.  it implies blame.

I wanted to go to the gym today but I couldn't get off the sofa.
I wanted to go to the gym today and I couldn't get off the sofa.

can you see an emotional difference in the two sentences?

I do see the difference.  The example is a failure on my part and realize it would definitely invalidate him if it was about him, but does it also if it applies to me? Could explain the whole “reason vs excuse” debate we have.

I can' tell if your "Who would live like that?"  is rhetorical or not.  on the off chance that it's not, I will throw an answer out there for us to kick around.     Who would live like that?  people with low self esteem.    people who have difficulty believing that they deserve better treatment.    people who have difficulty standing up for themselves.    people who are so conditioned to abusive treatment they think its normal.   people who are willing to give up parts of themselves to feel like they belong in something.

yes, right now many of the options are lose-lose-lose.     No one single sentence or tool or phrase will turn this around immediately.    He isn't suddenly going to snap to and say Oh sorry I am being a jerk.  

what becomes a win win win is when you are no longer exposed to his verbal toxicity.    when you are not absorbing his stress and feel calmer, less exhausted, less fried.    that's a win.    when you can walk away and see it as protection against psychological violence.   make sense?

It does.  I didn’t always have low self esteem. I’ve spent so much time just trying to not set him off on invisible mine fields that I am emotionally spent and don’t have the energy to do it anymore. So who would live like this is partially rhetorical, but mostly quickly becoming a fact I have not faced in a long time.

this is concerning UBPDHelp.   what did you do when he broke the glasses on purpose?    did you leave the room?   did you say anything to him?    considering all that is going on in the world can you find a way to put some distance between him and you?   please don't minimize this.  if he is spiraling out of control,   it's important you have a safe space.  a place you can relax in.     obviously I don't know your situation... a sewing room?    a place in the garden?     the bench on the front porch?     some place that would slow his relentless bullying of you?

It is. I made dinner, which I do every day and if I ever ask what he’s in the mood for, most of the time he says he doesn’t care. We have limited options right now and although I bought food I am highly aware that we may not be able to get to store soon, the delivered groceries are sold out and booked 2 weeks out. So, I used half the amount of meat and made a sauce with noodles to stretch what we had. He doesn’t like sauce and I offered to make him a plain piece of steak. Nope, he lost his mind.  The thing is, in normal times I wouldn’t do this, but I have 6 people to feed and these are not normal times.

He wouldn’t eat, he pulled everything out while the rest of us were eating. Kids finished early (oldest was on a call and ate later) and so did I.  We all left kitchen, but I could hear him banging around and throwing a fit. But he didn’t have an audience so he was just getting louder and louder and then I heard the glasses break.  He said nothing and I did not react. Just found them broken in the garbage.

Not getting a reaction from me I believe also escalated his behavior, but I didn’t have to watch.

can the man not make his own oatmeal?

Yes, and for something like this, he would but I didn’t want to deal with him in the kitchen so I did it.  That’s on me.

when he said he didn't know what he wanted and that you should feed the kids... did you, or could you say... "okay you are on your own for tonight, please don't eat the lobster newburg that's for tomorrow."

Yes, that’s what I did.  I told him the options and let him decide.

And, to be clear, the feed the kids was meant as I was neglecting them since we hadn’t had dinner at 7 o’clock (we ate lunch late).  He wants to set me up to be a bad mother.

He’s unbelievable.  He has pi$$ed and moaned that food I’ve made is weird.  Yes, it is not normal right now.  Go to the supermarket and you can’t buy flour or eggs or frozen vegetables. So yeah, I’m trying to piece together meals that are a bit unusual, but still nutritious for my family. There’s a pandemic out there and you want fine dining.  

I am a great fan of Sharie Stines, Psy,D.   This is quote from her:

Excerpt
Often times, victims of abuse try to figure out how to not trigger their abuser. It is helpful to realize that many of the triggers are in the mind of the abuser him or herself, so it’s pointless to take any onus of responsibility.

One aspect of the healing journey is to look at your behaviors and how you self-sabotage your own life. One way to begin to identify patterns of self-sabotage is to notice your side of participating in a destructive relationship.  This is not victim blaming, rather it is noticing how you allow yourself to be involved in a destructive situation.  

One aspect of this self-sabotage involves allowing yourself to be mistreated. Here are some ways you may self-sabotage: taking responsibility for other people’s behaviors; acting out and allowing the other person to “push your buttons;” staying around for abuse by minimizing it; staying around for abuse by fighting back; blaming yourself for another person’s poor behaviors; walking on eggshells; putting your emotional energy in a situation that is unsolvable; appeasement; playing “detective;” yelling and screaming; begging; using substances to cope…the list goes on and on.

Stines is correct, in my opinion.    trying to figure out how not to trigger him about food is not possible.    you can't out think him about what he wants or doesn't want for dinner.   there is no perfect answer that will satisfy him.  the only way to respond is to not participate in the dysfunction.    to not be involved.

This is true. I have spent years trying to not trigger him (and it has made me a stressed out mess, which means I have had moments of crazy, too). Constantly trying to not trigger him at the expense of my comfort and happiness.

I’m just not willing to do it anymore. And, I accept that this may just be because I am not a strong enough person to deal with this. The truth is though, I am getting older and I can’t imagine living the rest of my life doing this. I’d live in the cardboard box he tells me I’ll be in when he leaves just to not listen to his outbursts any longer.

And, it’s better for my kids too, I believe.  

Quote from: UBPDHelp on March 26, 2020, 11:06:32 PM
He looks at me and says he knows at the end of this we’re getting divorced that if he has to tell me again he will break every electronic in the house including my phone, computer, and the tv. Tells me I can take a car and drive to fu@$ing home (where I grew up 1500 miles away, my entire family is gone (dead) except for my estranged sister on the other side of country) and that I’m a goddamn hillbilly.

again I find this concerning.  the threats of violence.    again I find myself wondering what your response to this was?     how long did you stay in this conversation?

The threats were initiated over a bowl of ice cream. I was in disbelief that he was flipping out over ice cream, especially now.  But it was not calling the butcher about meat (that we don’t need right now) that set him off.  He lets me answer a question with three words, and then cuts me off with the threats. He does this all the time.  Cuts off partial sentences and doesn’t want to hear what I was saying because he’s determined I meant something else. I sat for a moment after he stopped (it was a 20 second nasty barrage) and then went to bed.

He has not broken anything in a long time, but he has before. Blindly I didn’t think of it as abuse.  Not sure what the hell I thought it was?  

If he breaks anything now, I am calling the police.

Quote from: UBPDHelp on March 26, 2020, 11:06:32 PM
And, even so, I just don’t want to live like this anymore.

well you don't have too UBDPHelp,   you have choices and options available to you, even though it may not seem like it now.    I would strongly recommend, like I have before, that the first priority is to rebuild your emotional and mental energy.    to put a real serious effort into resolving your exhaustion.     I know that is easier said then done.  you want to make the best choices and decisions you can.     doing that while rested is better.       we are all talking about social distancing right now,   I would encourage you to emotionally distance from your husband for a little while.    to avoid, evade and remove yourself from his drama.    let him rage about the ice cream all he wants,... don't be there to listen to it.

I don’t have to stay and listen.  The only option I have to stay away is to stay in our room but I feel like then he wins because he got to box me in.

Do I need to change my perspective here?

And, if I stay with the family and he does this, what is something I can say to make him stop?  

Btw, I am not allowed to tell him to stop.  This came up like 5-6 years ago and he told me if I said stop to him one more time, he would divorce me. We haven’t had that convo in a long time, but he still tenses when I say it. I have told him I’m not going to listen to him, but when I leave he gets what he wants and I feel like I’m reinforcing his behavior.

Where am I going wrong here?

I have more swirling in my head but I can’t put it together yet...will wait for your thoughts and see if I can gather my thoughts a bit better.

Thank you for the help.  It is truly appreciated.

[UBPDHelp]

Mod note: This thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343705.0


Thanks BabyDucks,

of course you are exhausted.   anyone would be exhausted living with the stress you describe.   it's perfectly natural to be exhausted.      are you sleeping?    are you sleeping well?   are you eating?     what are you doing for self care?   what are you doing to take care of yourself and give yourself little breaks?    this is a very difficult time.    there is a huge amount of world wide stress and for those of us are in shelter in place situations the stress is even higher.

I am exhausted. I am sleeping, but not great the last couple of days.  I get up a couple of hours before everyone else. It is when I clear my head. I am eating — overeating as I am an emotional eater, which has to change.  One step at a time.

We are shelter in place. I can go to another part of house but feel like that’s rewarding him for his bad behavior — at least think he will believe he has won and that what he is doing is “right”.  Maybe I need to change that mindset?

you are important and you matter.

   

Thank you. That means more than you know, but you probably do know.

the word "but" is super invalidating.   it completely negates  what ever comes before it.   no matter how you use the word 'but' it's an interruption.   it negative, it shuts a conversation down.  it implies blame.

I wanted to go to the gym today but I couldn't get off the sofa.
I wanted to go to the gym today and I couldn't get off the sofa.

can you see an emotional difference in the two sentences?

I do see the difference.  The example is a failure on my part and realize it would definitely invalidate him if it was about him, but does it also if it applies to me? Could explain the whole “reason vs excuse” debate we have.

I can' tell if your "Who would live like that?"  is rhetorical or not.  on the off chance that it's not, I will throw an answer out there for us to kick around.     Who would live like that?  people with low self esteem.    people who have difficulty believing that they deserve better treatment.    people who have difficulty standing up for themselves.    people who are so conditioned to abusive treatment they think its normal.   people who are willing to give up parts of themselves to feel like they belong in something.

yes, right now many of the options are lose-lose-lose.     No one single sentence or tool or phrase will turn this around immediately.    He isn't suddenly going to snap to and say Oh sorry I am being a jerk.  

what becomes a win win win is when you are no longer exposed to his verbal toxicity.    when you are not absorbing his stress and feel calmer, less exhausted, less fried.    that's a win.    when you can walk away and see it as protection against psychological violence.   make sense?

It does.  I didn’t always have low self esteem. I’ve spent so much time just trying to not set him off on invisible mine fields that I am emotionally spent and don’t have the energy to do it anymore. So who would live like this is partially rhetorical, but mostly quickly becoming a fact I have not faced in a long time.

this is concerning UBPDHelp.   what did you do when he broke the glasses on purpose?    did you leave the room?   did you say anything to him?    considering all that is going on in the world can you find a way to put some distance between him and you?   please don't minimize this.  if he is spiraling out of control,   it's important you have a safe space.  a place you can relax in.     obviously I don't know your situation... a sewing room?    a place in the garden?     the bench on the front porch?     some place that would slow his relentless bullying of you?

It is. I made dinner, which I do every day and if I ever ask what he’s in the mood for, most of the time he says he doesn’t care. We have limited options right now and although I bought food I am highly aware that we may not be able to get to store soon, the delivered groceries are sold out and booked 2 weeks out. So, I used half the amount of meat and made a sauce with noodles to stretch what we had. He doesn’t like sauce and I offered to make him a plain piece of steak. Nope, he lost his mind.  The thing is, in normal times I wouldn’t do this, but I have 6 people to feed and these are not normal times.

He wouldn’t eat, he pulled everything out while the rest of us were eating. Kids finished early (oldest was on a call and ate later) and so did I.  We all left kitchen, but I could hear him banging around and throwing a fit. But he didn’t have an audience so he was just getting louder and louder and then I heard the glasses break.  He said nothing and I did not react. Just found them broken in the garbage.

Not getting a reaction from me I believe also escalated his behavior, but I didn’t have to watch.

can the man not make his own oatmeal?

Yes, and for something like this, he would but I didn’t want to deal with him in the kitchen so I did it.  That’s on me.

when he said he didn't know what he wanted and that you should feed the kids... did you, or could you say... "okay you are on your own for tonight, please don't eat the lobster newburg that's for tomorrow."

Yes, that’s what I did.  I told him the options and let him decide.

And, to be clear, the feed the kids was meant as I was neglecting them since we hadn’t had dinner at 7 o’clock (we ate lunch late).  He wants to set me up to be a bad mother.

He’s unbelievable.  He has pi$$ed and moaned that food I’ve made is weird.  Yes, it is not normal right now.  Go to the supermarket and you can’t buy flour or eggs or frozen vegetables. So yeah, I’m trying to piece together meals that are a bit unusual, but still nutritious for my family. There’s a pandemic out there and you want fine dining.  

I am a great fan of Sharie Stines, Psy,D.   This is quote from her:

Excerpt
Often times, victims of abuse try to figure out how to not trigger their abuser. It is helpful to realize that many of the triggers are in the mind of the abuser him or herself, so it’s pointless to take any onus of responsibility.

One aspect of the healing journey is to look at your behaviors and how you self-sabotage your own life. One way to begin to identify patterns of self-sabotage is to notice your side of participating in a destructive relationship.  This is not victim blaming, rather it is noticing how you allow yourself to be involved in a destructive situation.  

One aspect of this self-sabotage involves allowing yourself to be mistreated. Here are some ways you may self-sabotage: taking responsibility for other people’s behaviors; acting out and allowing the other person to “push your buttons;” staying around for abuse by minimizing it; staying around for abuse by fighting back; blaming yourself for another person’s poor behaviors; walking on eggshells; putting your emotional energy in a situation that is unsolvable; appeasement; playing “detective;” yelling and screaming; begging; using substances to cope…the list goes on and on.

Stines is correct, in my opinion.    trying to figure out how not to trigger him about food is not possible.    you can't out think him about what he wants or doesn't want for dinner.   there is no perfect answer that will satisfy him.  the only way to respond is to not participate in the dysfunction.    to not be involved.

This is true. I have spent years trying to not trigger him (and it has made me a stressed out mess, which means I have had moments of crazy, too). Constantly trying to not trigger him at the expense of my comfort and happiness.

I’m just not willing to do it anymore. And, I accept that this may just be because I am not a strong enough person to deal with this. The truth is though, I am getting older and I can’t imagine living the rest of my life doing this. I’d live in the cardboard box he tells me I’ll be in when he leaves just to not listen to his outbursts any longer.

And, it’s better for my kids too, I believe.  

Quote from: UBPDHelp on March 26, 2020, 11:06:32 PM
He looks at me and says he knows at the end of this we’re getting divorced that if he has to tell me again he will break every electronic in the house including my phone, computer, and the tv. Tells me I can take a car and drive to fu@$ing home (where I grew up 1500 miles away, my entire family is gone (dead) except for my estranged sister on the other side of country) and that I’m a goddamn hillbilly.

again I find this concerning.  the threats of violence.    again I find myself wondering what your response to this was?     how long did you stay in this conversation?

The threats were initiated over a bowl of ice cream. I was in disbelief that he was flipping out over ice cream, especially now.  But it was not calling the butcher about meat (that we don’t need right now) that set him off.  He lets me answer a question with three words, and then cuts me off with the threats. He does this all the time.  Cuts off partial sentences and doesn’t want to hear what I was saying because he’s determined I meant something else. I sat for a moment after he stopped (it was a 20 second nasty barrage) and then went to bed.

He has not broken anything in a long time, but he has before. Blindly I didn’t think of it as abuse.  Not sure what the hell I thought it was?  

If he breaks anything now, I am calling the police.

Quote from: UBPDHelp on March 26, 2020, 11:06:32 PM
And, even so, I just don’t want to live like this anymore.

well you don't have too UBDPHelp,   you have choices and options available to you, even though it may not seem like it now.    I would strongly recommend, like I have before, that the first priority is to rebuild your emotional and mental energy.    to put a real serious effort into resolving your exhaustion.     I know that is easier said then done.  you want to make the best choices and decisions you can.     doing that while rested is better.       we are all talking about social distancing right now,   I would encourage you to emotionally distance from your husband for a little while.    to avoid, evade and remove yourself from his drama.    let him rage about the ice cream all he wants,... don't be there to listen to it.

I don’t have to stay and listen.  The only option I have to stay away is to stay in our room but I feel like then he wins because he got to box me in.

Do I need to change my perspective here?

And, if I stay with the family and he does this, what is something I can say to make him stop?  

Btw, I am not allowed to tell him to stop.  This came up like 5-6 years ago and he told me if I said stop to him one more time, he would divorce me. We haven’t had that convo in a long time, but he still tenses when I say it. I have told him I’m not going to listen to him, but when I leave he gets what he wants and I feel like I’m reinforcing his behavior.

Where am I going wrong here?

I have more swirling in my head but I can’t put it together yet...will wait for your thoughts and see if I can gather my thoughts a bit better.

Thank you for the help.  It is truly appreciated.

[babyducks]

We are shelter in place. I can go to another part of house but feel like that’s rewarding him for his bad behavior — at least think he will believe he has won and that what he is doing is “right”.  Maybe I need to change that mindset?

All mindsets have value.   All mindsets have significance.

What I am suggesting is you not measure your actions,   not determine your approach, not base decisions on what he will think or feel.

Make your decisions on what you think or feel.

Does it do you any good to involve yourself with his drama?   

Is it good for you?   for your health?    for your stress levels?

does it add to your exhaustion to try and figure out if he thinks he has "won"? 

does it matter if he has "won"?

are you responsible for rewarding his bad behavior?   or correcting him when his behavior is wrong?

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF,

Thank you. I do try to present options. When I do he gets annoyed.  Doesn’t want menu, doesn’t want agenda, doesn’t want to dos.

But, I am expected to know what he would choose and if I guess wrong, then it’s because I don’t love him like I did bf from 30 years ago. He says I would do anything for bf (didn’t, no idea why he thinks this) but a grain of sand in my path is too big an obstacle for me to do something for him.

He just sets me up to fail and then punishes me with verbal assault when I do.

Doesn’t this all seem too much to overcome?

I'm also concerned about the increasingly threatening and destructive behavior. 

Did you put the things back as he ordered you to do?

The actual pantry threat was if I didn’t put it back, he was going to throw it all out. Now who is neglecting the kids?  Worse, potentially harming them by increasing risk of no food.

It was 9 o’clock and I told him I was not doing it that night. I got up (hours before him) and threw out 2 cans of soup that had expired and put everything back. Truly this wasn’t for him or me, I just was concerned for my kids to be exposed to ratcheted dysregulation when we’re all stuck here.

I guess I’m more in survival mode and how to moderately coexist right now. Don’t think I can effect change and want to focus energy how to survive when we divorce. Job hunt is obviously difficult right now but I think that is goal #1.

Thoughts?

[babyducks]

here are a couple of thoughts to kick around.

first:  you are a strong person.    you are an amazingly strong person.   you have to be.    give yourself credit for the effort you are putting in, while in difficult conditions.

second:

Not getting a reaction from me I believe also escalated his behavior, but I didn’t have to watch.

while you are sheltering in close quarters you want to be careful about escalating behavior.     every time I hear on the news about people sheltering in place but they place have to shelter in is not safe I think of our fellow members here.    who can you reach out to?    Even in the most casual of ways?   just to check in... you have a perfect excuse...the pandemic is forcing many of us to make a concerted effort for contact.     

third:

He wants to set me up to be a bad mother.

you are not a bad mother.   don't participate in this dysfunction.    this is not about you.     do not take this on board.    don't engage in this thinking.  (not easy I know)  you are a good mother.  you are taking good care of your family.     

last for now:

I don’t have to stay and listen.  The only option I have to stay away is to stay in our room but I feel like then he wins because he got to box me in.

don't get boxed in.     don't get trapped in one room.   that's not safe.    maintain an avenue of escape or exit, and a well charged phone.  if you don't have a bench of the front porch, can you set up some lawn chairs outside where you can take refuge?    depending on the weather where you are.   if you have to,... say you are working on getting 30 minutes of sunshine a day to boost your vitamin D levels.
or whatever works...     

Constantly trying to not trigger him at the expense of my comfort and happiness

you are responsible for your energy levels, exhaustion, and comfort.    do something today to help replenish yourself.

be well.
'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Hi BabyDucks,

It’s hard to get on during the day.  He is not working at all.  I’m giving him until next week to start doing something and then there is a conversation to be had.  I honestly don’t know what he is thinking and I know he’s lost track of how far behind he is. He doesn’t care but honestly this is almost breaking me more than even his outbursts.  I don’t care about money or things but I do want stability and security. I stupidly put my trust in him and gave him all the control in my stability. You know how it’s hard to see things happening in your life but you can so clearly see it in someone else’s? Well, that’s this.  If anyone — kid, family, friend — told me 1/1000 of this I would tell them to leave.

I should have been smart enough and brave enough to gain control of my stability a long time ago.  I have often been caught by people who do outlandish things because they would never occur to me so you don’t see it coming. I believed he loved me and he meant it when he said he would earn the living and I would be primary parent raising the kids. But, it now has me locked in.  I am working on a new job.  I have actually had 2 interviews during the pandemic and am cautiously optimistic. Not enough to fully support me and my kids, but a start while I keep trying.

Anyway, to answer/reply:

while you are sheltering in close quarters you want to be careful about escalating behavior.     every time I hear on the news about people sheltering in place but they place have to shelter in is not safe I think of our fellow members here.    who can you reach out to?    Even in the most casual of ways?   just to check in... you have a perfect excuse...the pandemic is forcing many of us to make a concerted effort for contact.   

I wasn’t trying to escalate, but rather defuse by not engaging. I just think by going in the other room he wanted to be loud so he could still “yell” at me by breaking the glasses. If I ever tell him something is important to me, he talks down about it, or in this case, breaks it. If I tell him something bothers me (my hair, waist, etc) he will focus on it forever. It’s unbelievable.

He doesn’t break things often so I don’t want to give that impression.  But he has. And, he has never put his hands on me (I did mention he did brush by me rather aggressively once in the past few months), so I’m not too concerned about my physical safety. But I’m not stupid either. I always have my phone on me and know all the ways out of the house.  I hide my purse and keys at night (boy do I sound nutty). 

And, thanks for saying I’m not a bad mother. I know I’m not. I love my kids and do just as good a job as any normal parent, except I have failed them so greatly in allowing this behavior to continue. BUT, he tries to paint these “pictures” and repeat them. I know he wants ammunition for divorce good luck. I have saved all of his ranting text messages (he tells me to delete them when he goes off his rocker on me).  I do but not before I memorialize the exchange. I don’t know if the court would consider that documentation or not. Sad I felt compelled to do this.

Today he was in a better mood and was pleasant. I interacted some but kept it light. I’m just not in the mood for the roller coaster.

As I mentioned he hasn’t been working and we’re nearing a month and a half without pay (mostly his choice because he wants to quit his job).  I have some money I inherited from my family. It’s not a lot but some. I think he figures we can use that while he sits around doing nothing. Bills are coming due.  Debating if I’m going to pay them this time but not again unless he’s trying. I’ve been holding onto it in case I need to go, it would buy me a couple of months on my own. I don’t want to touch it.

I don’t know how he thinks bills are getting paid when he has done nothing. Next week we’ll have to talk about it. In the past, we’d have discussed already but he’s been so on edge and then pandemic, I didn’t want to stress more. But he chose to be the breadwinner and have me stay home (90-95% of the time I’ve had at least a part time job, too). He can’t just decide to stop. If this was circumstance — fired, down sized, pandemic — I would understand. This was an intentional choice and it honestly pi$$es me off. He did this once before when I had a 3 yo and was 6 months pregnant. Just quit his job. That was a long time ago, but it left me unsettled. My parents had same jobs for 35 years, so was used to stability. But again, it’s not losing a job, it’s the intentional decision to put us in precarious circumstances. He isn’t even looking for another job.

Sorry I have rambled so long. I only have small windows to get on and then the whole day pours out.

Thank you again for your input.  It is helpful and reassuring. Thank you.

[babyducks]

Don't beat yourself up UBPDHelp,  you are doing the very best you can in some extremely difficult circumstances.

There is a lot of stress in your life right now.   Financial stress,  pandemic stress,  stress from your Husbands maladaptive coping techniques.    what are you doing to dump your stress?    any exercise?   talking a walk daily?  yoga?    how are you taking care of yourself?    (yes, I am going to keep asking you that.     )

When I said "while you are sheltering in close quarters you want to be careful about escalating behavior "   I was referring to his.     not yours.

I am wondering if there is some way you can manage your expectations that will work better for you.      If you can adjust your expectations so that they more closely match the current reality.     I completely understand that you have the expectation that he will work and provide income.    Totally reasonable.    Still, right now, as he collapses under the stress of his illness he is not able or willing to do that.

I don’t know how he thinks bills are getting paid when he has done nothing.

pwBPD or NPD react poorly to stress.   it overwhelms them.    it can and often does trigger an avalanche of difficulties for them.     99% of the time my Ex managed her mental health care team and medications perfectly.   Until.    One of her most trusted doctors changed insurance plans and she needed to find a new provider.    the stress of that event sent her into a psychotic break.    foolishly I underestimated how difficult it was for her to change providers and by the time I caught on it was too late.   damage has been done.    that's a pretty common story here.    a stressful event,  a family illness, a natural disaster, a change in jobs or homes overloads a pwBPD's coping mechanisms.     

what's your plan for the conversation about work and bills?    would you feel comfortable trying out your thoughts here before you discuss with him?

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

I am trying to unwind. I do get up a couple of hours before everyone else gets up and usually just sit, have a cup of coffee and take inventory — kids, work (job hunt rn), household needs.  It gives me time to plan my day and negate much of the daily stress.

And, during normal times, H is out of the house 5 days a week so I have freedom to go about my day. He is a tough mix. He’ll sleep til noon and stay up til 2, 3 or sometimes even later. So, for instance, I don’t vacuum in the morning when people are sleeping (within reason, c’mon). But, if I vacuum when he’s up, he tells me I’m putting on a show meaning doing it so he has to acknowledge it. I don’t care if he or anyone knows I vacuumed, it’s my job, how did they think it got done?  It’s not important to me to get praise for it, but it’s still being done. This is his whole take credit for everything good and put down everything I do or blame me for bad things. It’s again one of those things that the actual “thing” wasn’t big so I didn’t call him out, but when all those things are put together, he is the smartest, greatest person in the world. I just didn’t understand what I was dealing with.

Anyway, I’ve asked him to go for a walk (thought it would distress him too) or take a drive. He doesn’t want to because he’s afraid we’ll run into people. So, he also sets me up too...but we’ve gone into the yard and I may just take some walks anyway.

A week or so ago he came in all upset that an associate from over 10 years ago was in the hospital with Coronavirus.  I sad that was terrible and I hoped she was okay. He kept freaking out, which I couldn’t understand and then he says he saw her a few weeks ago (3-4) and I said okay, and repeated that I hoped she was okay. But he still wouldn’t calm down so I asked if he was afraid that she exposed him.  He just kind of got quiet. I tried to reassure him and told him that it was outside the window (most likely) and that he wasn’t in close proximity and that we’d been good about washing hands, etc.  He just sat quietly the rest of the night bouncing his knee like crazy.

A couple of days later we decided to do a quick necessities run to super. I did it because I do most of the shopping and can do it faster being more familiar with where things are. I was in and out in less than 20 minutes. We wiped the groceries, I threw out my gloves and washed my hands a few times. All done and he looks at me and says that now I was the last one to expose everyone so it will be my fault if we get sick. Charming.

So, my thought re: finances is to wait until Monday/Tuesday to see if he starts doing anything. If he does, it will be a gentle reminder that we should figure out how to get caught up, etc.

If he doesn’t then more direct questions I guess

I can’t really dialogue, but here are my points:

- We are going through tough times, what can I do to help him
- I am concerned that he has not been working the last couple of weeks and know he needed some time, so what does he plan going forward
- If he’s not planning to work, what is he expecting with keeping a roof over our heads, etc.  like what does this look like to him

He may have money at the office and won’t tell me (likes me unstable) but he’s also said we will divorce when this is over so maybe he’s not worried because he’s going to keep it for himself. I don’t know.

I know there’s more questions that I can’t formulate rn and my resentment is growing. I’ve failed at these conversations before and now am like Pavlov’s dog — so trained to avoid upsetting him (at least Pavlov’s dogs got a treat!).

I am SO SO open to suggestions on how to approach this.

I also fear he wants to deplete the little money he knows I have. Again, I would be willing to do this if he was trying to work and wasn’t threatening divorce.  Right now I’m thinking I will pay what I HAVE to to get another month and then reassess.  That will let me keeps some and offer more time but I’m not happy about it under these circumstances. And, keeping the house is not attainable for me at any point. I could not cover it with the best job I could ever get, so this is very temporary.

Again, thank you so much for your help and any guidance you can give.

[babyducks]

I can’t really dialogue, but here are my points:

- We are going through tough times, what can I do to help him
- I am concerned that he has not been working the last couple of weeks and know he needed some time, so what does he plan going forward
- If he’s not planning to work, what is he expecting with keeping a roof over our heads, etc.  like what does this look like to him
 

Hello Again UBPDHelp,...

Thanks for putting your main points out there.    That's a great step to hopefully a more positive result.     Here is what I notice as I read your points.     They are only my observations and hopefully someone else will toss out what they see.

First,   these are three huge and emotionally loaded points.    your husband is already pretty overloaded,  hence the bouncing knee.   I would strongly suggest breaking these into at least three separate conversations,  of no more than 10 minutes each.   when some one is overloaded their ability to process information is vastly reduced,   and they are more likely to trigger sooner.    keep things simple.  make sense?

- We are going through tough times, what can I do to help him
 

Let's look at this through his eyes and ears.    How is he going to hear this?   Is he likely to hear... oh my wife is being so good, willing to help me out while I am struggling?    Or is he more likely to hear ...my wife thinks I am so useless and stupid she has to come do things for me?   when some one is emotionally overloaded their ability to process information is vastly reduced.     his ability to think is abstract terms is probably pretty diminished.   it's likely he won't be able to answer a question as vague as "what can I do to help?"   I would suggest you offer specifics here,... and simple binary ones at that.   I would also suggest to try to remove any judgments.   something more along the lines of "while we are in this unusual situation of sheltering in place would you find it helpful if I ____fill in the blank______ or not?

have you ever heard of the Karpman Drama Triangle?  https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

There are three roles on the drama triangle.   The Victim, whose  stance is "Poor me!,  The Persecutor who insists, "It's all your fault."  The Rescuer, who  is a classic enabler.   You'll want to stay off the drama triangle as much as possible and offer solutions and suggestions that provide clear choices.    the trick of this is you need to good with all the possible choices offered.    People much smarter than me have written entire books on the Karpman Drama Triangle and how it is a perpetual cycle of conflict.    I'd invite you to take a deep look.

in the points you listed,... how would you describe your role?    how would you describe his role?     if, as you have suggested; he has strong aspects of NPD, he will need to protect his ego wound and move out of the victim position at all costs.    if you are in the role of rescuer,... the only spot left to him is persecutor.    I know this is a lot to process.     how does this strike you?   
   

- I am concerned that he has not been working the last couple of weeks and know he needed some time, so what does he plan going forward
 

this is a great opportunity for active listening... to not rescue,... "I am willing to listen to your problem for 15 minutes without making it mine to solve"..  this is a great opportunity to move away from the victim role, and think along the lines of 'how can I get what I want in a healthy way'.   this is a great opportunity to move away from persecutor, into a more challenger position,    'I can agree to this for another X amount of time but no more'.   

- If he’s not planning to work, what is he expecting with keeping a roof over our heads, etc.  like what does this look like to him
 

do you hear anything in this that could come across as blaming or shaming?    knowing what you know now about how his personality is organized... how do you think he would react?     

all of us end up on the drama triangle from time to time.    it's helpful to be able to recognize it and move off the triangle...   

my two cents
'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Hi BabyDucks,

Thank you.  Before I delve back in, a quick comment and a question or two.

Thank you for recognizing that these were just the points/issues I have and not the actual language to use (although I don’t know what the actual language will be just yet).

Question — could these questions/issues, although unpleasant, be asked/discussed in a more typical relationship without tremendous prep and word choice consideration?

We’ve been together for 30 years so it’s been a long time since I’ve seen normal and I honestly don’t know what it looks like anymore.

Or, alternatively, is it that I’m just callous and don’t know how to ask difficult questions in a “normal” way?

I know his response is not okay, but would this conversation result in true turmoil in any relationship?

Quote from: UBPDHelp on March 28, 2020, 08:48:10 AM
- We are going through tough times, what can I do to help him

Let's look at this through his eyes and ears.    How is he going to hear this?   Is he likely to hear... oh my wife is being so good, willing to help me out while I am struggling?    Or is he more likely to hear ...my wife thinks I am so useless and stupid she has to come do things for me?   when some one is emotionally overloaded their ability to process information is vastly reduced.     his ability to think is abstract terms is probably pretty diminished.   it's likely he won't be able to answer a question as vague as "what can I do to help?"   I would suggest you offer specifics here,... and simple binary ones at that.   I would also suggest to try to remove any judgments.   something more along the lines of "while we are in this unusual situation of sheltering in place would you find it helpful if I ____fill in the blank______ or not?

I think this would work except I don’t have anything that I can really do to help the actual issue. I can give him another back rub but I can’t do his job or make enough money to pay for bills.  I’m already doing all of the housework, cooking, laundry, kids schoolwork help.  He’s just sleeping and watching tv. He even said he won’t reply to anyone’s text messages because he doesn’t want to talk to anyone. He does relentlessly check Facebook.

Quote from: UBPDHelp on March 28, 2020, 08:48:10 AM
- I am concerned that he has not been working the last couple of weeks and know he needed some time, so what does he plan going forward
 
this is a great opportunity for active listening... to not rescue,... "I am willing to listen to your problem for 15 minutes without making it mine to solve"..  this is a great opportunity to move away from the victim role, and think along the lines of 'how can I get what I want in a healthy way'.   this is a great opportunity to move away from persecutor, into a more challenger position,    'I can agree to this for another X amount of time but no more'.

This would be great but (sorry for the but, now I feel like I can’t say this at all and yet I don’t know what else to say...ugh) AND even though I can’t solve the problem, it impacts me, making it my problem, too:

     1. I don’t think he will accept the lack of work is his problem.  He’ll likely tell me that we’re all going down.
     2.  He will NOT discuss Coronavirus at all. Says he doesn’t want to hear it. And yet, he’s not considering any paths at all and everything is very dependent on Coronavirus right now. He shuts it all down immediately.
     3. And, the only solution I can see is that he work remotely. I don’t think he will. His job is often stressful so he’s just not up for it.  So, in a way, it doesn’t feel to me that there is even a discussion to be had about options, rather just when will he start doing something (or not).

Quote from: UBPDHelp on March 28, 2020, 08:48:10 AM
- If he’s not planning to work, what is he expecting with keeping a roof over our heads, etc.  like what does this look like to him
 
do you hear anything in this that could come across as blaming or shaming?    knowing what you know now about how his personality is organized... how do you think he would react?    

all of us end up on the drama triangle from time to time.    it's helpful to be able to recognize it and move off the triangle...  

I absolutely see and know this would send him into dysregulation.  I would definitely want to carefully orchestrate the question.  

Maybe — under our present circumstances, we need to make some decisions about finances.  The best option I see is to take care of only the things that have to be paid right now and then we can take the next week to figure out how to address the rest. Do you think that sounds like a good plan or not?

Re: the drama triangle, he’s definitely a persecutor and will be a victim IF doing so doesn’t make him weak.  Meaning, I have made a bad decision that impacted him so he has no responsibility (victim) and then a swift shift to persecutor.

I am rarely persecutor (intentionally), BUT see how discussing tough topics could come across as such if I’m not careful with my words.

Again, do people try this hard in “normal” relationships? I mean I’m not going in and saying “you’re such an irresponsible jerk for loafing on the couch watching trash tv all day while we’re financially, emotionally going into the toilet.”

I feel like in a normal relationship I wouldn’t have to make the primary breadwinner aware that not bringing home money for 5 weeks when you’ve chosen to not save any money prior could have some negative impacts. As such, the conversation already has that awareness and then becomes a partnership with finding solutions.

And, while I’m all for equal rights in a relationship, it is really disheartening that I have to shoulder all the work and responsibilities right now AND be the emotionally strong one.

I do think we sit on the triangle a lot, but I don’t actually know where else to live. I feel very blamed for every problem and his refusal to confront issues (and definitely not reasonably) I assume is making me persecutor when trying to discuss issues.

Can you suggest how to not be persecutorial when there are not a lot of options?

What roles are there OFF the triangle?  Do they have names?

I had another question but don’t type so fast and forgot it by the time I got here.  I’ll be back if I remember.  

Thank you again for your help.  Stay well.

[babyducks]

Question — could these questions/issues, although unpleasant, be asked/discussed in a more typical relationship without tremendous prep and word choice consideration?

I would say, both yes and no.   every relationship has communications failures.    every relationship has issues that are more difficult to discuss than others.    still it's a given that our relationships are challenging and our communications skills and our emotional maturity skills have to be better than average.     personally I was always surprised at the sheer number of words that I needed to use to communicate with my Ex.     and the amount of effort I needed to put into fraught conversations.     in the middle of  a pandemic where the economy is being turned inside out,   I think anyone having a conversation about money/finances would be having a tough time of it.

I think this would work except I don’t have anything that I can really do to help the actual issue. I can give him another back rub but I can’t do his job or make enough money to pay for bills.  I’m already doing all of the housework, cooking, laundry, kids schoolwork help.  He’s just sleeping and watching tv. He even said he won’t reply to anyone’s text messages because he doesn’t want to talk to anyone. He does relentlessly check Facebook.

This would be great but (sorry for the but, now I feel like I can’t say this at all and yet I don’t know what else to say...ugh) AND even though I can’t solve the problem, it impacts me, making it my problem, too:

so let's be very clear on what the actual problem is here and try to work only on that.  okay?   I read the problem as there is no income and April's bills are coming due.   Right?   Wrong?   Full of Baloney?      You are right, rubbing his back isn't addressing the actual problem... it seems to me that falls more into the rescuing  role.     and doesn't address what happens when the first bill is due.     can you call the company sending the bill and explain that your family is having income issues right now because of the pandemic?    here where I am there are all sorts of companies doing special things to try to lessen the impact.    please remember this isn't about fixing him so he will work and earn money,   this is about making a positive impact on the problem.

      3. And, the only solution I can see is that he work remotely. I don’t think he will. His job is often stressful so he’s just not up for it.  So, in a way, it doesn’t feel to me that there is even a discussion to be had about options, rather just when will he start doing something (or not).

I believe you.   if you say he won't work remotely then he won't work remotely,.. that moves your choices into other areas.    which is a good thing, because you can only control what you do.    you mentioned you have a little money set aside, is it time to sit down and carefully look at exactly how much of that you are willing to spend to keep the family afloat?   and draw firm fixed clear boundaries around that?    i.e.   "Husband I will pay the electric bill and the mortgage in April but that is all I can do."    is there any place you can leverage money out of right now?   

if he won't work remotely, you can't force him, coax him or cajole him into it.
   

I feel like in a normal relationship I wouldn’t have to make the primary breadwinner aware that not bringing home money for 5 weeks when you’ve chosen to not save any money prior could have some negative impacts. As such, the conversation already has that awareness and then becomes a partnership with finding solutions.

Perhaps.   Probably.    but this is the relationship you have chosen to have.   this is the relationship you find yourself in.    this is your current reality.

What roles are there OFF the triangle?  Do they have names?

Oh sure.   they were waAAaaay at the bottom of the article I linked you too. 

this is from the article:

you have to be willing to stop playing the superior/inferior game to stay out of drama triangles.

Almost all conflict interactions with a person with Borderline Personality Disorder traits (BPD) or Narcissistic Personality Disorder traits (NPD) are based on who is better than/worse than, right/wrong, deserving of blame/deserving of defense, who gets more/gets less, who does more/does less, etc.

To break the dynamic of superior/inferior requires us to learn to accept differences and similarities between ourselves and others as neither good nor bad.

the roles on the 'winning triangle' are:

Assert rather than persecute. Instead of the actions of the persecutor,  who blames and punishes - give up trying to force or manipulate others to do what you want. Take on the new behaviors of "doing " and "asserting ". Ask for what you want. Say no for what you don't want. Give constructive feedback. Initiate negotiations. Take positive action.

Be vulnerable, but not a victim. "Victims " often feel overwhelmed, too defeated to solve their problems and emotions. They look to someone else to do it for them. Instead of the victim  role you need to be emotionally mature (vulnerable, not needy), accept the situation you are in and take responsibility to problem solve and function in a more healthy and happy way. Put real thought into what you want and how to get it, and take action to make it happen.

Be caring, but don't overstep. We do not want to let our fears, obligation and guilt to control us or allow us to be manipulated into taking care of another person when it really isn't healthy to do so. Instead of being the rescuer  and doing the thinking, taking the lead, doing more than our share, doing more than is asked of us -  simply be a supportive, empathetic listener and provide reflection, coaching, and assistance if the person asks and is taking the lead themselves. It is important to recognize the other person as an equal (not one-down) and give the other person the respect of letting them take care of themselves, solve their own problems, and deal with their feelings as they choose. Remember, the rescuer  has the most pivotal position on the drama triangle - you are in the strongest position, at least initially, to redirect the dynamic into healthy territory.

hope this helps
'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Thanks BabyDucks,

I had to go back and reread it.  It’s a lot of info.

So, what strikes me is that I have fallen into the drama triangle most notably by relinquishing my wants/needs/feelings to keep the peace. As I mentioned, it started with little things that then turned into expectations and the sheer quantity of little things means virtually everything. That’s on me and I have to fix it.

The thing is much of the time I am very respectful that we are different.  He, obviously, is not.  So if I can appreciate and respect the differences, but he can only see things through his eyes, what do I do to shift him/open his eyes to seeing and respecting those differences?

Here is a weird example.  When I get a cold I generally end up with a cough.  It comes from a recurring tickle in my throat from anatomical post nasal drip.  I can’t help it although I do things to mitigate it as instructed by my Ivy League educated primary care doctor, and while it helps, it doesn’t completely resolve except with time.  This cough is IRRITATING to my H.  He will tell me I’m giving him a headache, etc., and then yells at me to blow my nose.  I tell him that there’s nothing to blow and it’s post nasal drip (sorry if tmi) and then he says I’m an idiot.

Fast forward 30 years and honest to goodness he’s had it happen to him. He can’t understand it, but now it’s okay cause it happened to him.

I’ve told him many times that my sinus structure and anatomy is (obviously) different so this is how my body reacts. He doesn’t get it.  If it makes him nauseous, it has to make me nauseous. 

He gets mad if I say good morning or good bye or how was your day.  I don’t anymore. But it also means he doesn’t say these things to me and to me, these are normal and appreciated check ins.

I’ve done a few small take backs.  I used to grab him a cup of coffee if I was getting one for myself.  Now, I don’t. Half the time I would get some kind of snide comment so just figured let him sort out if he wants it or not.

Re: finances, I can definitely assess what I’m willing to do, but I believe taking a stand will spiral him. I can also see about help that is available but feel uncertain because while pandemic is impacting for sure, some of this is self imposed and technically we could pay now but then I don’t have a safety net. Can I tell them my H has BPD and I don’t want to spend my money in case we divorce?  And, I even feel like saying “my money” is so wrong. If he hadn’t told me a thousand times he was going to divorce me and make the kids hate me and I’d only be able to afford a cardboard box, I might be saying “our money” and doing more to “help”, but if that were the case, I wouldn’t even be here.

So, I think I’ll let him know I’ll take care of the immediate and discuss asking mortgage/car to give a short reprieve and see if he agrees. I would think this would naturally “ding ding, I should be working” but I think likely it will be a tirade of why I won’t spend all my money.

If you can tell me a good way to phrase this so I don’t invalidate, I would be ever so grateful.

I hope you’re doing okay where you are. It is crazy here but I am hopeful. 

Bless you for your help.

[formflier]

Lots of good thoughtful questions above.

Don't do everything at once.  Perhaps pick some small things, think them through (we can help!) and then move forward CONSISTENTLY. 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61921.10


Please please please!  You are better off to "put up with it" than for you to try to change something and then sometimes "hold" and sometimes "give in".

Read the above thread for deeper understanding.

Axioms:

1.  Focus on what you do and your outcomes.  Do not "measure" success based on his actions (especially in the short term)

2.  Don't listen/participate in blather, abusive language, divorce talk.  (we might want to break off a separate thread just for that)

3.  He will likely behave worse before it gets better.  Or her may get better then get way worse and then..who knows.  (hint:  he is trying to "get you back in line")

So, with those things in place do you want to pick a few things to work through and figure out where you will focus change.

1.  TV remote  (or something else to stand in for a larger pattern of always deferring).

2.  Doing what you are ordered to do (such as pantry)

Can you think of some things around meal time that you would like to stop "appeasing" him?

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

The thing is much of the time I am very respectful that we are different.  He, obviously, is not.  So if I can appreciate and respect the differences, but he can only see things through his eyes, what do I do to shift him/open his eyes to seeing and respecting those differences?

well that is really the $64000 question isn't it.   and there is no simple answer to it.    BPD and NPD exist on a spectrum.      and within these broad diagnostic categories is  a wide variety of expression and experience.    still these are both serious mental illnesses.   people with BPD can and do get better, usually with a long term commitment to therapy and sometimes medication.     usually people with NPD are slower to accept therapy.      what can you do to shift him?     

this is from the lessons on the bettering board:

A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills - especially in times of stress.  If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.0

We need to change ourselves. We need to make ourselves healthy again. We need to learn to communicate effectively. We learn to set limits and define our own boundaries... and we learn to enforce them. We learn to walk away from emotional dysregulation. We learn to allow the person with BPD their own feelings and lives and we allow the same for ourselves.

Basically be the emotional leader to better behavior and hope that our pwBPD follow the lead.      It's not easy.     And it's often not fair.     its a serious commitment to doing things a different way.     

Re: finances, I can definitely assess what I’m willing to do, but I believe taking a stand will spiral him. I can also see about help that is available but feel uncertain because while pandemic is impacting for sure, some of this is self imposed and technically we could pay now but then I don’t have a safety net. Can I tell them my H has BPD and I don’t want to spend my money in case we divorce?  And, I even feel like saying “my money” is so wrong. If he hadn’t told me a thousand times he was going to divorce me and make the kids hate me and I’d only be able to afford a cardboard box, I might be saying “our money” and doing more to “help”, but if that were the case, I wouldn’t even be here.

I absolutely agree with FF.   Don't do everything at once.   Pick one small thing to work on.    Pick something with a priority.    But just one.     and try small changes.   observe what works and what doesn't, reassess; and then move forward again.

I'll use the example of finances because that is what we have been talking about.

He is in some sort of emotional crisis and has been there for a while, based on what you have said.   You don't want to trigger him further.   If you taking a stand on finances will spiral him further you want to avoid that.     Pick one bill, the next one due,... let's say it's the electric bill just for simplicity sake...     what do you think would happen if you said:   'H... the electric bill is due on Friday.    I was thinking of paying that... what do you think ?'    put it in your own words.   keep it simple simple simple simple.    if he triggers walk away... 'well we can talk about this later'.      baby steps.     approach one thing at a time... the electric bill, the car payments,   the mortgage all at once, all in one conversation,  may be too much for him to cope with.

myself I would avoid saying that BPD or a potential divorce is involved.   I would keep that private, only within the family and trusted friends.    I think it's a good idea that you keep money safely in your control in case of emergency.   that's practical.     

my two cents
'ducks

[formflier]

Yes..keep money safe.  Don't dip into it unless there is a REAL emergency.  We can help you sort through that.

 
I suspect one way you can help is to disengage much quicker.  One of my concerns is you have detailed knowledge of very long rants your husband goes on...that's got to take a toll.

We can help turn principles into "tactics".


For instance, yesterday my wife triggered slightly and began to think I was going to keep my boys (who were helping me at my Mom's new house) from "virtual church" (us in living room watching live stream of pastors).

I could see how she got that (or started to get that) , yet because of overtalk and the emphatic nature of her approach (this must happen...this will happen...must happen), in a very loud voice (not quite a shout but close)

Anyway the old FF would have stayed and tried to "reason" with her. 

The new FF heard about 30 seconds of it and then the door clunked behind me as I went on my way. 

I thought about texting her but decided that would be fuel on fire and did not (I waited for her to communicate)

Her texts were reasonable yet had "bait" in them. 

Looking back on the texts I didn't do a good job validating, but I did do a good job "not taking the bait".

I agreed with her church was important and that I too was disappointed in kids going back to sleep.  (kept it succinct). 

She said she was glad I agreed, tossed out more bait (which I ignored and kept focused on plumbing issue).

The issue died out due to "lack of fuel" or perhaps she started using wise mind more. 

I can only assume there was some ranting and stomping around the house while I as gone.  But here is the point (my point), I honestly don't know.


Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi BabyDucks and FF,

Please forgive me responding all jumbled together, I don’t think I have enough oomph to do it any other way.

I’m sorry my sarcasm, which is totally inappropriate (apologies), wasn’t clear. I was trying to communicate the absurdity of expecting the mortgage company to care he has BPD (undiagnosed anyway) as why he decided not to work.

I would care so much more about his well being if he wasn’t so nasty to me when he’s not so stressed. Now I’m just angry we’re in this position, which I recognize is just as much my fault, if not more.

I will gauge how he is today/tomorrow and tackle one bill.  The others (a few due April 1), I’ll try to figure out on my own, but the fear remains that if I choose and he later disagrees, setting up for a new issue.  Under the circumstances thinks it’s the only viable option.

BD, you’re comment that this is the relationship I chose and am in hit hard. It’s true and I feel like such a weakling that I was not strong enough to break free. I don’t hold grudges and am generally a positive person. Too willing to just get over things rather than learn an actual lesson.

FF, I understand the importance of standing firm on whatever stance I take. I’ve stopped engaging in crazy conversations and just gently respond and leave. He has not ranted at me in several days and almost seems defeated. He makes some snarky comments to the tv that are roundabout directed at me, but I don’t engage (better option?).

It is interesting watching this as it shows how off the mark his thoughts are despite abundant evidence to the contrary and societal input opposite of his view.  Long story — can elaborate if any interest or helpful.

The remote has taken on a status of control and I have pondered it for some time. I do think it’s a good starting point but not sure now is the time. Told were in for another month so may just need to go elsewhere and suck it up until things settle into a less stressful time. Do you agree?

My only new concern is having his head buried to the realities. He keeps thinking things are going to be normal tomorrow and then tomorrow. I’m starting to worry he may soon feel hopeless and he’s threatened self harm occasionally over the last year (never done anything and think he’s so NPD likely wouldn’t). I am keeping a close eye on him and looking for any other signs he’s breaking.

Going to clear my head some more and reread both your comments a few more times.

I honestly cannot thank you both enough for your help and sharing your experiences. I hope I gain half your clarity and BPD coping skills. Truly bless you.

[babyducks]

BD, you’re comment that this is the relationship I chose and am in hit hard. It’s true and I feel like such a weakling that I was not strong enough to break free. I don’t hold grudges and am generally a positive person. Too willing to just get over things rather than learn an actual lesson.

UBPDHelp, being in a relationship with some one with a mental illness is not a moral failing.    There are a lot of good reasons to stay.   There are a lot of reasons why the relationships have value.

I would still be with my Ex if it were at all possible.     I still see the value she has as a human, the incredible talents she possesses.   Unfortunately the serious nature of her illnesses defeated both of us.   

I think that society as a whole is trained to see mental illness as a failing.   "If only they would learn to think differently."     We don't treat physical illness as a failure.  We don't see diabetes as "they should learn to process sugar differently".

I really admire your willingness to work with us.    To look at new information from different and sometimes painful perspectives.     

'ducks

[formflier]

I would still be with my Ex if it were at all possible.     

One of the things that will become more clear as time goes on and you take (and keep) stands on various issues is that you will be able to sort through what is and isn't a "deal breaker"

We can guide you through long periods of self reflection to determine if the issue is important and if there are other reasonable ideas to try to move the relationship in a different direction.

Then we can be by your side as you make decisions about the future of the relationship.

Massive hint...nobody should work through this alone.  We've got you on this!   

I really admire your willingness to work with us.    To look at new information from different and sometimes painful perspectives.     

'ducks

Yes...double and triple yes.


Last:  We have all made relationship choices in the past that "weren't the best".  I clearly see my "methods" in early years pushed things towards a bad place.  I have lots of regret.

That being said, I "tap into" that to be better about the future.

It's all about what we do "going forward".

Best,

FF

[DisheartenedGuy]

All of this hits so close to home; the resemblances are eerie.  As for helping with finances -- my biggest problem is there is never any appreciation, and within hours she has already come up with her next "request." Even if you pay all the bills, all the rent, etc, she will suddenly decide she really needs a new piece of furniture, or tickets to a show (a once in a lifetime opportunity." 

We pay the bills hoping for recognition or hoping to feel needed, but all we get is a "thank you" if we are lucky, and our deed is forgotten...all the while they are spending $80 on lobster tails and $50 on stuff at the dollar store and $130 on expensive lipstick, but not able to pay the $40 water bill.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi BabyDucks,

Thank you for the kind words.

UBPDHelp, being in a relationship with some one with a mental illness is not a moral failing.    There are a lot of good reasons to stay.   There are a lot of reasons why the relationships have value

I agree. That said, I feel my failing was in not seeing the red flags or the patterns and not making changes earlier. It feels like the most uphill battle with someone tripping you and throwing stones at you the whole way...and that person is the person you love (or did) and they just won’t stop no matter how nice or how supportive you are. It most often does not feel “fixable” and then I just wish he could be normal.  And by normal I just mean not see me as the enemy when he doesn’t get his way or willing to ”discuss” issues. And then deep down I know that will never happen.

Still pondering but ever thankful for your guidance.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.

One of the things that will become more clear as time goes on and you take (and keep) stands on various issues is that you will be able to sort through what is and isn't a "deal breaker"

We can guide you through long periods of self reflection to determine if the issue is important and if there are other reasonable ideas to try to move the relationship in a different direction.

Then we can be by your side as you make decisions about the future of the relationship.

Massive hint...nobody should work through this alone.  We've got you on this!   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

My dad always said that nobody was perfect and that you just had to figure out which things were deal breakers and which things you could live with. He was unhappy with H early on because of something he did. I doubt he would have known it was a BPD trait, but definitely got his back up. It happened about a year after my mom died and I just thought my dad was being overly sensitive. I think back on that incident and wonder if I, too, hadn’t still been so devastated at my mother’s passing if I wouldn’t have clung so hard to my H and would have been willing to see it was a huge red flag. I don’t know. Regardless, your deal breaker scenario hit home for me.

I so sincerely appreciate and am thankful that I have all of you to help me sort my thoughts. It feels like a moving target and coupled with pandemic stress, I feel unsettled to say the least.

But a huge thanks for your very direct and unwavering support.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi DisheartenedGuy,

Thank you for sharing your experience. I agree there is much similarity.

We pay the bills hoping for recognition or hoping to feel needed, but all we get is a "thank you" if we are lucky, and our deed is forgotten...all the while they are spending $80 on lobster tails and $50 on stuff at the dollar store and $130 on expensive lipstick, but not able to pay the $40 water bill.

I completely understand this. My situation is slightly different in that H makes most of the money but I am in charge of the actual paying of the bills. He works for himself and doesn’t get paid unless his clients pay, so sometimes he won’t have a regular check.  But, he won’t tell me and gets offended if I ask. So now I just wait a week or so and then remind him. But, it also means that I can’t just pay bills.  I have to wait until I know if he has a check. And if he doesn’t one week and then does the next, I have to rearrange what bills to pay as something may be more urgent now. And, if anything is late, then he gets mad. It’s a whole lot of effort to keep things going and he just doesn’t get it.

And, he does the exact same thing.  Will buy expensive NON essentials and then not be able to pay a utility. Does this all the time. I mean we get the bills paid but it’s a lot of moving stuff around and is super annoying.

He’s so entitled now that he’s complaining that being cooped up with pandemic is not fun and we should be having more fun. What?

Thank you again for sharing. I apologize if I’m not sure you’re new here, but I know I’ve only seen a couple of your posts. So, in that regard, welcome. I have found the most compassionate, knowledgeable and caring people on here and will never be able to repay their kindness and support. I only hope someday I understand it all better so I can pay it forward. Here’s to hoping!

[UBPDHelp]

Just a mini update.

No progress today.  H was gloom and doom today.  The weather is bad and being cooped up isn’t helping. He made some “it’s all over” comments but wouldn’t follow up what he meant. I didn’t push it.

He is so on edge. He had both knees going at the same time and so fast I thought he might actually take flight.

Strangely he is quieter and he is not verbally assaulting me (also not really talking except about whatever trashy tv show he is watching). 

I am a little more concerned about becoming quieter — any thoughts?  I’m assuming it’s pandemic, but wonder if this is a shift of sorts and if there is anything I should be on the lookout for.

His business partner reached out to him last week about business finances and options. H isn’t really telling me about it, just side comments but won’t answer questions or follow up. H went off on him and said some crazy insulting things to him. He’s done this before so I’m sure it wasn’t a surprise. His partner is trying to keep things afloat until this passes but H is just having a meltdown about it.

So, with all of this, it didn’t seem like he could handle personal stuff. I think tomorrow there is more business stuff and honestly his partner does a good job and is probably only reason they’re still functioning, so unless it was his last straw (which it may have been, hence this is all over comment?), he could still be there to discuss options.

Depending on that will likely determine if I can delve into personal. So for now, I’m going to do the stuff that has to be done this week/start of month and see what we can defer longer and hopefully have a conversation on once he sees business stuff settled however it is going to settle. I don’t know, I think that’s my best option for now. Please let me know if that sounds reasonable.

He’s difficult enough to discuss finances with, near impossible with this added stress.

And, looking at another month in lockdown is not giving me much hope for his stress levels to go down.

Thanks for listening to me type out loud.

Welcome any thoughts or suggestions. Bless you all...stay safe.

[formflier]

Can you sketch out his day...perhaps in 30 min or 1 hour increments?

Maybe same for you?

I and others are still learning your "story" and I'm also a big fan of "structure".  Sometimes the structure of our days lends itself to (fill in the blank).

This might not go anywhere...who knows?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

My day (pandemic day, so slightly different now) —

Get up 6:30ish. Clean up anything from night before. Have a cup of coffee, catch up on emails, etc. Sit for a bit. Shower.

8-8:30 make sure kiddos are moving and get them ready for school

Work with them until about 11-11:30.

Make a quick lunch. 12-12:30

Regroup on school 1-2

Relax — tv, reading 2-3

Laundry, chores, etc. 3-4/4:30

Make dinner 5-6

7-10 watch tv, play board games, get kids ready for bed

Repeat.

H —

Get up between 10:30-11, come down around noon (was like 1pm over weekend)

12-12:15 stares out window and grumbles

12:15-1 watches tv, refuses to eat with us

1-1:15 eats lunch, often what we had that he said he wasn’t hungry for.

1:15-6 watches tv. Sitcoms on auto repeat and some watched episodes 5+ times in last 2 weeks

6-6:30 eats dinner with us, looks for at least one thing to complain about but puts on a falsely happy face for kids, which is good, I guess.

6:30pm-2:30am watches tv again. Sitcoms and then trashy reality tv.

From 10 or 11pm until 2:30am, I don’t know for sure, but assume this is what he’s doing.

My oldest son stays up with him mostly so believe that’s what he’s doing.

I also know about a month ago, he was exchanging messages with an old friend (female). He was showing me something on his phone and an alert popped up and took me over to his FB messages. I didn’t read the message and don’t know how long the exchange was, but it was just the face of the last one that seemed kind of flirty about changing jobs. Doesn’t seem like she replied after that and again, I don’t know if there is more to it or just innocent.  Point is, he may be having FB relationships after I go to bed. Idk.

Pretty crappy days, though, right?

He won’t change his schedule and I don’t have the luxury of sleeping until noon. He doesn’t really either.

[formflier]

OK and when does he work?

Or is that on hold because of virus?

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Good Morning UBH,

Here are the right-off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts this morning.

 H was gloom and doom today.  The weather is bad and being cooped up isn’t helping. He made some “it’s all over” comments but wouldn’t follow up what he meant. I didn’t push it.

People who are organized at the borderline level (or NPD level)   see everything in stark terms of black and white.    everything is either the very worst it could possible be,... or beyond the best it could possible be.   there is no middle ground.   there is no 'this will be tough but we will get through it'.    I am going to guess that "its all over" means that civilization as we know it will collapse from the pandemic,  there is no sense working because everyone is going to die from it (particularly him) and no matter what the deck is stacked against survival.

He is so on edge. He had both knees going at the same time and so fast I thought he might actually take flight.

My Ex was diagnosed Bipolar 1 co-morbid with another illness, probably BPD.   She was compliant with medication, and dedicated to therapy.  She made progress, but struggled.      She also had the psycho motor overflow you are describing..    The constant hyper active movements.   it was a reliable indicator of how stressed she was, and how chaotic her thoughts were.

I am a little more concerned about becoming quieter — any thoughts?  I’m assuming it’s pandemic, but wonder if this is a shift of sorts and if there is anything I should be on the lookout for.

I'm wondering if the quieter is an indication of whats going on with him internally.   it's got to be   inside his head right now.    I see the quieter as his way of self isolating from stress.     he is attempting to self soothe by removing stimulus from his environment.

1:15-6 watches tv. Sitcoms on auto repeat and some watched episodes 5+ times in last 2 weeks

I see this as the same,... an attempt to self soothe.  the repetition is a way to self medicate.  if it were me I wouldn't push him to engage or converse.      that's just me, you know him best.    I would stay with simple simple simple conversations,   simple interactions,...   allow him opportunities to engage but if he can't don't force it.

has he ever gotten like this before?  or is this new behavior for him?     

'ducks

[babyducks]

OK and when does he work?

my understanding is he doesn't work.   that he has retreated into this pattern of isolation and hasn't worked or engaged with work obligations in about 5 weeks.

UBH - correct me if I am wrong.

[UBPDHelp]

Yes, he has not worked in going on 4 weeks (not paid for 5, going on 6 this week (EOW payday).

The first two weeks were in-office “vacation” weeks. He likes to say he “vacations” when he doesn’t do any work. He was super dysregulated during that time, leaving the house, quit/fake quit his job, rage texts.

Then 2 1/2 weeks ago they shut all nonessential/schools down so coming up Thursday it will be 3 weeks he’s been home not working. Everyone else is working from home and I have for 15 years so we have a nice home office with everything needed. He doesn’t move off the couch.

Originally it was a 2 week stay home order so I was just giving him the time and hoped he would snap out of it. That turned into now stay in place til end of April (at least) so the no working is continuing.

And, I’m interviewing but am also now competing with a million more people and hiring has all but ceased. I am not above any job at this point but the only industries hiring are front line that I’m either not qualified for or are too risky (and I have autoimmune disease so a bit scary). If it were just me, I might do it, but it feels risky for my kids. They need at least one quasi stable parent. Does that seem logical or should my priorities shift?  Idk.

I can hear him talking to his partner. Not sure what they discussed but H seems happy (can hear voice but can’t hear content (hard as I try  , jk).  So maybe they figured a little something out and he won’t feel so defeated.

Agree on the self soothing. I sit next to him much of the day but only muster few pleasant comments or discuss reality tv. Seems only space he can live in right now.

I also agree about quieter as thinking things through. And auto repeat like the white noise he constantly craves. I have just let him be.

Will continue with same now. I’d like to think we come out of this more appreciative of the blessings in life we do have. Suspect he blames me for the Coronavirus. He just has a way of everything being my fault.  

Thanks so much for your feedback.

[I Am Redeemed]

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