HELP - I’ve unleashed the beast, so to speak part 4

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343908.30

Also, would some of you be willing to share what a “normal” r/s would look like around my past?

I recognize that his response/reaction is not “normal,” but I feel as if I’ve lost all sight of normal expectations in a r/s. I also know it is dependent on the person. It makes me so sad to think this expectation could have been known from the beginning, and was his responsibility to state it (which he sometimes says he did, he did NOT), and then decides after 20 years it’s a deal breaker. I feel as if he stole a normal life from me and my kids.

Anyway, what are some possible dynamics a normal r/s would have around a partners past?  

Appreciate any he,p.

[UBPDHelp]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343908.30

Also, would some of you be willing to share what a “normal” r/s would look like around my past?

I recognize that his response/reaction is not “normal,” but I feel as if I’ve lost all sight of normal expectations in a r/s. I also know it is dependent on the person. It makes me so sad to think this expectation could have been known from the beginning, and was his responsibility to state it (which he sometimes says he did, he did NOT), and then decides after 20 years it’s a deal breaker. I feel as if he stole a normal life from me and my kids.

Anyway, what are some possible dynamics a normal r/s would have around a partners past?  

Appreciate any he,p.

[UBPDHelp]

I'm not sure that I have this post crafted quite the way I want to say it.    We may have to tweak it, to better language.     Let me throw this out there.

You tend to equate his behavior to standard, normal, typical behavior.    or measure against standard, normal, typical behavior.   He is not there.     

It's not normal to lock yourself in a bedroom and not change your clothes for 1.5 weeks.    It's not normal to suddenly walk away from a career that you have worked in for 20 years.     It's not normal to accuse someone of being a slut because they ate a second helping of peas.

I'm not trying to be harsh.   

his reality is distorted.    IMHO these aren't judgmental hangs ups he is displaying.    these are symptoms of serious mental illness.

this is horribly painful to have to deal with.    terribly difficult.    no one wants their spouse to have a mental illness.   it's emotionally excruciating.    and yet if we don't label it for what it is... we can't protect ourselves and our loved ones.

you are doing such great work.    you are sailing right into the teeth of this.     hang in there.    And do something nice for yourself today.

'ducks

Our posts crossed paths. And yet thinking the same thing.

I meant to say previously, the second helping of peas was just an example of the random minuscule trigger he finds to do this.

I don’t think there is a ton around food. There may be some, but it is the co-star at best.

Regardless, it is so painful the things he has said and done. So painful and unbelievable.

[formflier]

UBPDHelp,

I want to join others in encouraging you to properly label and use the right words.  What we say (especially to ourselves) influences the way we think AND the way we conduct ourselves in our relationships.  (I'm positive there are other benefits as well)

I (we) are in your corner, part of that are gentle nudges in the right direction.

 how easily he can discard a 25 year marriage without another word or looking back.

Also want to gently push you towards the "truth".

I get it that it "feels" like he has discarded your marriage...yet...he actually hasn't done this..right?

Can you take some time to more accurately express what it appears to you he is doing?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I meant to say previously, the second helping of peas was just an example of the random minuscule trigger he finds to do this.
 

Even here...I see an effort (likely not conscious or deliberate) to normalize and/or minimize serious dysfunctional behavior that (taken in context) seem to indicate serious untreated mental illness.

"Taken in context" means:  We've all done and said really weird things from time to time.  That's part of life.  The persistence of these type of things and the lack of self awareness are markers of something likely much more serious.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF,

Thanks. I need help with this...

I want to join others in encouraging you to properly label and use the right words.  What we say (especially to ourselves) influences the way we think AND the way we conduct ourselves in our relationships.  (I'm positive there are other benefits as well)

I (we) are in your corner, part of that are gentle nudges in the right direction.

Quote from: UBPDHelp on April 07, 2020, 10:30:14 AM
 how easily he can discard a 25 year marriage without another word or looking back.

Also want to gently push you towards the "truth".

I get it that it "feels" like he has discarded your marriage...yet...he actually hasn't done this..right?

Can you take some time to more accurately express what it appears to you he is doing?

I believe he is pushing me to end the marriage so he doesn’t have to be the bad guy.

I believe he is unhappy — real or imagined — and he cannot resolve so he searches for fillers (vacations, cars, sex) to fill the void, which they do not and then finds a kernel to lay the blame on me so he doesn’t have to be responsible for his feelings.

Am I wrong?  It is so unintentional if I’m taking blame.

I have my part of my behavior BUT I firmly believe that there is no behavior, certainly none of mine that deserves his response.

That said, can you please help what I’m missing?

Even here...I see an effort (likely not conscious or deliberate) to normalize and/or minimize serious dysfunctional behavior that (taken in context) seem to indicate serious untreated mental illness.

"Taken in context" means:  We've all done and said really weird things from time to time.  That's part of life.  The persistence of these type of things and the lack of self awareness are markers of something likely much more serious.

I am not trying to normalize. It’s not okay. I just wanted to be honest on my part that I don’t think food is the biggest issue.

That said — other examples, not finishing laundry, not buttoning my coat, not wearing shoes, not being showered before doing anything — are all things that will trigger him. Saying to stop, this will unleash the slut dialogue.

But I do NOT think any of it is okay.

My life —

1. shock at the behavior (minimal behavior)
2. shock and try to make peace/resolve (minimal to medium behavior)
3. not so much shock, try to put in boundaries (maximum behavior)

I tried to address, deal and then ultimately live in trying to keep the peace. I have sold my soul but I want it back. I want better.

Question I have. Is BPD a severe mental illness (know some are lessor) or are we talking about something more, in your opinion?

And, do I have responsibility to get him help?  Like he needs it, can’t see it, do I have a moral (or any) obligation?

Thanks...off to clear my head but will anxiously await your replies.   

[formflier]

I believe he is pushing me to end the marriage so he doesn’t have to be the bad guy.
 

This is a logical and rational explanation that seems well thought through.

That being said, do you believe these qualities apply to messages from him?

Do you want to revise your thoughts?

Best,

FF

PS..don't rush for answers, let different points of view marinate for a while...

[stolencrumbs]

I'm not sure that I have this post crafted quite the way I want to say it.    We may have to tweak it, to better language.     Let me throw this out there.

You tend to equate his behavior to standard, normal, typical behavior.    or measure against standard, normal, typical behavior.   He is not there.     

It's not normal to lock yourself in a bedroom and not change your clothes for 1.5 weeks.    It's not normal to suddenly walk away from a career that you have worked in for 20 years.     It's not normal to accuse someone of being a slut because they ate a second helping of peas.

I'm not trying to be harsh.   

his reality is distorted.    IMHO these aren't judgmental hangs ups he is displaying.    these are symptoms of serious mental illness.

this is horribly painful to have to deal with.    terribly difficult.    no one wants their spouse to have a mental illness.   it's emotionally excruciating.    and yet if we don't label it for what it is... we can't protect ourselves and our loved ones.

you are doing such great work.    you are sailing right into the teeth of this.     hang in there.    And do something nice for yourself today.

'ducks

Hi UBPDHelp. I haven't commented, but I've been following along with your story. I just wanted to put some exclamation points by this post by 'ducks. She is really good at emphasizing this point, and it is, I think, both really important and really hard to accept. I could say the words for a long time that my wife's behaviors weren't "normal," but it took a really long time for it to sink in that she had a serious mental illness, and what it meant for me that she had a serious mental illness. There's a lot going on right now, and there's a lot in this thread, and a lot of good advice, and all are things to think about and think through, but for me, this point is hugely important in the bigger picture.

I don't want to add too much here. I just wanted to encourage you to really start thinking about this and what it means. And don't expect the reality of this to sink in in a day or a week. I'm probably still in the process, but it took me over a year (probably a lot longer) to really understand it, and by that time my wife had destroyed our kitchen with a hammer, set things on fire inside the house, broken windows and doors, driven me around drunk threatening to crash the car, threatened to kill our dogs, physically attacked me, and tried to kill herself multiple times. I say that just to say that my insistence on trying to view things against a standard of normality was very strong even in the face of very extreme behaviors. It's a hard point to internalize and a hard pill to swallow sometimes, but definitely worth thinking about.

[UBPDHelp]

This is a logical and rational explanation that seems well thought through.

That being said, do you believe these qualities apply to messages from him?

Do you want to revise your thoughts?

Hi FF, I don’t mean to rush it, I guess I’m trying to land on what I’m dealing with so I can figure out what to do.

Sorry if I’m like punching a piñata...I’m going to swing and miss a bunch I believe.

The only other option I can think is that he can’t deal with how he feels about himself so projects it on me. Says it’s over (again) but doesn’t do it because then who will he blame for his feelings.

Am I getting close?

And if this is closer, couldn’t he still project on me absentee?

I’m still hoping to understand if what the suspected significant mental illness is intense BPD or is it something unknown, at least to me?

Also, can I get some input on why he’s been very high functioning for so long and appears “normal” to the outside world (albeit I know he’s shown a few “cracks”)...like how can he do that?  And what are the chances he’ll be able to function when we’re not together?  Like will I be able to get any financial support  for me/kids, which up until now he made enough to do so, or do I really need to consider this will all be on me?

Just a lot of considerations.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi stolencrumbs,

Thank you taking the time and sharing your thoughts/experiences.  It sounds like you’ve been through a lot and I’m sorry for that.

Hi UBPDHelp. I haven't commented, but I've been following along with your story. I just wanted to put some exclamation points by this post by 'ducks. She is really good at emphasizing this point, and it is, I think, both really important and really hard to accept. I could say the words for a long time that my wife's behaviors weren't "normal," but it took a really long time for it to sink in that she had a serious mental illness, and what it meant for me that she had a serious mental illness. There's a lot going on right now, and there's a lot in this thread, and a lot of good advice, and all are things to think about and think through, but for me, this point is hugely important in the bigger picture.

BabyDucks has given me a lot to think about. I’m unclear if the serious mental illness is intense BPD or something else. H functions quite well in the world and is most likely seen just as super aggressive and a bit mean, but it’s some the nature of his business so I think he can camouflage it quite a bit. He’s told coworkers they’re autistic many times; told me that too in the last couple of years. My SIL has grimaced a few times at things he’s said (once he said something about cutting someone’s head off — I know he didn’t mean it, but also see now how I excused it as if it’s normal — wow!) and she often comments how loudly he listens to the tv. So there have been some cracks showing, but all in all he comes across as this generous, fun, interesting guy. It makes it super confusing. And I feel like I’ve been robbed of a normal r/s.  Sad.

I don't want to add too much here. I just wanted to encourage you to really start thinking about this and what it means. And don't expect the reality of this to sink in in a day or a week. I'm probably still in the process, but it took me over a year (probably a lot longer) to really understand it, and by that time my wife had destroyed our kitchen with a hammer, set things on fire inside the house, broken windows and doors, driven me around drunk threatening to crash the car, threatened to kill our dogs, physically attacked me, and tried to kill herself multiple times. I say that just to say that my insistence on trying to view things against a standard of normality was very strong even in the face of very extreme behaviors. It's a hard point to internalize and a hard pill to swallow sometimes, but definitely worth thinking about.

This sounds scary. So what was the point that she started doing these things?  Do you have kids?  If so, how did they play with you decisions?

I think ultimately I know what I need to do, it’s getting my head and heart in it, making plans and accepting that. It’s hard.

Just a month or so ago it was still trying tools to see if I could swing it around. Crazy.

Thank you again for sharing

[formflier]

Just a month or so ago it was still trying tools to see if I could swing it around.
 

I would encourage you to CONSISTENTLY use tools in order to get a clearer view of the future of your relationship.

There were a couple of years where I wouldn't have been surprised if my marriage ended.  A matter of "months" is really a "blip" in data. 

Getting to a point where you are "accepting" of ending the relationship does  not mean the r/s will/or should end, yet I think you will be much more relaxed and ok with what the future brings.

Being much more relaxed will likely help the dynamic between you and your hubby.

Best,

FF

[empath]

Question I have. Is BPD a severe mental illness (know some are lessor) or are we talking about something more, in your opinion?

I'll jump in here. BPD is a severe mental illness - at least according to the mental health professionals. When they start talking about "personality disorders", they generally mean that there is something fundamentally different than what is typically seen in people.

I tend to think of my husband's illness as an instability that has been consistently part of our lives; it makes life and relationships difficult for him. I've been in several situations with him where others commented on his instability (especially emotionally and financially); people have tried to help him become more stable without much success. He can't figure out why he isn't as "successful" as other people. The way he thinks is very, very different than other people would. However, he can present as very functional to people who aren't paying attention to the nuances that he has.

I would encourage you to CONSISTENTLY use tools in order to get a clearer view of the future of your relationship.

I agree with FF. Continue using the tools because your relationship with your h will continue regardless of your marital status since you have children together. I have found that they have helped me to be able to respond to my h rather than reacting.

[stolencrumbs]

Hi stolencrumbs,

Thank you taking the time and sharing your thoughts/experiences.  It sounds like you’ve been through a lot and I’m sorry for that.

BabyDucks has given me a lot to think about. I’m unclear if the serious mental illness is intense BPD or something else. H functions quite well in the world and is most likely seen just as super aggressive and a bit mean, but it’s some the nature of his business so I think he can camouflage it quite a bit. He’s told coworkers they’re autistic many times; told me that too in the last couple of years. My SIL has grimaced a few times at things he’s said (once he said something about cutting someone’s head off — I know he didn’t mean it, but also see now how I excused it as if it’s normal — wow!) and she often comments how loudly he listens to the tv. So there have been some cracks showing, but all in all he comes across as this generous, fun, interesting guy. It makes it super confusing. And I feel like I’ve been robbed of a normal r/s.  Sad.

This sounds scary. So what was the point that she started doing these things?  Do you have kids?  If so, how did they play with you decisions?

I think ultimately I know what I need to do, it’s getting my head and heart in it, making plans and accepting that. It’s hard.

Just a month or so ago it was still trying tools to see if I could swing it around. Crazy.

Thank you again for sharing

We don't have children. Moving was the catalyst, and that happened about five years ago. In hindsight, there were a lot of red flags, but like you H, my wife functioned well outside of our house. She had a good job and lots of friends and everyone loved her. When we moved and those bits of her life fell away, everything else rose to the surface.

It is all hard to accept. I don't think it's crazy to keep using the tools. Don't be dissuaded from doing that. They really do help, no matter what ultimately happens. You might decide you don't want to live a life with a tool belt on all the time, and that maybe it'd be nice to put the tools down, but it's good to know how to use them, and it's good to help manage everything until you can get clear about and comfortable with what you want to do, and they'll be invaluable to helping you get to the life you do want, whatever that might look like.

[UBPDHelp]

I would encourage you to CONSISTENTLY use tools in order to get a clearer view of the future of your relationship.

There were a couple of years where I wouldn't have been surprised if my marriage ended.  A matter of "months" is really a "blip" in data. 

Getting to a point where you are "accepting" of ending the relationship does  not mean the r/s will/or should end, yet I think you will be much more relaxed and ok with what the future brings.

Being much more relaxed will likely help the dynamic between you and your hubby.

Hi FF,

I would use the tools IF we were communicating at all. Have not spoken in almost a week. Somewhat relaxing but cooped up not knowing what his state of mind is tends to be a bit unnerving. If we ever do speak again, I can employ the tools.

He’s been coming out the last couple of days to eat and watch tv. He takes the food up to our room and just leaves all the dishes, a steak bone, coffee cup turning moldy and countless drinking glasses. He went outside so I went and grabbed them — don’t want them lost/broken, he seems incapable of caretaking and it’s disgusting. He bathes but still in same dirty clothes. The last bit of laundry I left for him, he threw on the floor a few days ago. That I left. It doesn’t impact me but I also won’t be including his laundry with the rest (unless I determine this isn’t a stand, I’m more concerned about his dislike of “mothering” right now).

Truthfully, right now if I knew I’d be able to take care of our kids and myself, I think I would be done. The thought of enjoying a holiday or a mini, cheapo vacation with my kids and just everyday life sounds amazing.

This may have been addressed before, but do BPDs need constant excitement — even the good kind?  I’ve always felt he needed constant entertainment and wonder if this is akin to tv volume...constant entertainment keeps you from “thinking” about where/who you are. Idk, may be reaching. I enjoy times of just clearing my head.

Thanks for your guidance. It is amazingly helpful. 

[UBPDHelp]

We don't have children. Moving was the catalyst, and that happened about five years ago. In hindsight, there were a lot of red flags, but like you H, my wife functioned well outside of our house. She had a good job and lots of friends and everyone loved her. When we moved and those bits of her life fell away, everything else rose to the surface.

It is all hard to accept. I don't think it's crazy to keep using the tools. Don't be dissuaded from doing that. They really do help, no matter what ultimately happens. You might decide you don't want to live a life with a tool belt on all the time, and that maybe it'd be nice to put the tools down, but it's good to know how to use them, and it's good to help manage everything until you can get clear about and comfortable with what you want to do, and they'll be invaluable to helping you get to the life you do want, whatever that might look like.

Hi stolencrumbs,

You’re anology was great. I don’t have a tool belt, but seems I’m dealing with a tool. Haha. Ugh.

Jokes aside, it is actually a good reminder and I will keep at it. We are at an impasse, however.  He will never come to me as he believes I am the enemy and cause of all the misery in his life. I am not willing to go to him either b/c doing so would mean he believes that I agree to let him continue mistreating me. So I wait and mull the options.

I hope things are going better for you now with the tools. Appreciate you sharing your experience — knowing some things that could happen and knowing you’re not alone are invaluable.

[formflier]

Hi FF,

I would use the tools IF we were communicating at all. Have not spoken in almost a week. 

Here comes the "pusher" FF...gently pushing back. 

You are using a tool.  Seriously.  You are "responding" instead of "reacting".

Reacting:  Running up and banging his door..demanding to talk..demanding answers...showering him with your LOVE and CONCERN, brushing aside his contempt and generally CHASING after him.

Responding:  A person (your hubby) has told you in several different ways that he is not capable of a conversation (at the moment)...AND...YOU BELIEVED HIM!

Nice work!

The "tool" is going on with your life when someone on has decided to (fill in the blank).

Many times the best "tools" are what we DON'T say and DON'T do.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF,

Okay, you are right. This is a tool. Strangely I feel better.

I just want to relax and enjoy this time where we can’t do one other single thing. But this is unnerving, but he does seem somewhat more calm. We shall see.

And, yes, I have often tried to resolve. Close to begging when I could not grasp how he got to some irrational point. He probably didn’t know how he got there either.

Okay, maybe I’ll add all the tools I have available to e-journal so I can feel more empowered to use them and empowered that I already am.

Thank you...you really are a dear friend.

[UBPDHelp]

Good morning,

Lack of sleep, tremendous stress, and pulled in a 100 directions and I’m still contemplating.

Also debating texting H about bills. Waffling really.

Small status.

He seems in a better spot but we are avoiding each other. He is jovial and talkative to our adult son. Some I suspect b/c he feels “lightened” that he’s rid of me. Some b/c I believe our son is being used to demonstrate how wonderful H is. Point, yesterday son and I were chatting and H went to get something to eat. Our son casually went to the kitchen to say hello and H sort of blew him off and told him again he should quit his job and that he needs health insurance because we’re not going to have it much longer. 

I believe H was annoyed that our son was talking to me (I’m sure in his eyes, taking my side). Later H took our son for a short drive (something I couldn’t get him to do) and then they watched tv together. They had a great time. Told him stories, made son feel great about stuff. All fine IF it’s real. Worried son is getting sucked in and then will get burned.

Son is only one working at this point; frantically saving to get his own place, I can’t discourage b/c he needs out just as bad as anyone and having one less person to shelter is helpful in this circumstance.

Thanks...

[babyducks]

I believe he is pushing me to end the marriage so he doesn’t have to be the bad guy.

this seems very likely.   however, if this was only about ending the marriage would he also walk away from his lifetime career and place of business?    would he have trouble following healthy patterns of eating, sleeping and hygiene?    Likely not.    mental health professionals no longer use the term nervous breakdown because it doesn't really describe a specific mental illness.    Generally, it's understood to mean that a person is no longer able to function normally.    His ability to function normally seems very limited right now.

Question I have. Is BPD a severe mental illness (know some are lessor) or are we talking about something more, in your opinion?

BPD is a serious mental illness.    It's called borderline because its on the border of neurosis and psychosis.   BPD is often co mobrid (coexists) with other mental health disorders.

Also, can I get some input on why he’s been very high functioning for so long and appears “normal” to the outside world (albeit I know he’s shown a few “cracks”)...like how can he do that?  And what are the chances he’ll be able to function when we’re not together?  Like will I be able to get any financial support  for me/kids, which up until now he made enough to do so, or do I really need to consider this will all be on me?

No one is psychotic 100% of the time.    My P said that to me when my Ex had a maniac episode.    Most of our partners had cracks showing and then some event or something triggered a decline into more dysfunctional behavior.   Sometimes the trigger is very obvious, like stolencrumbs' move.   sometimes the trigger is minuscule.    the last trigger for my Ex was the cat.  nothing wrong with the cat mind you.    Just the cat being a cat.   

I am curious, is he the same age as his mother was when she had her event?

This may have been addressed before, but do BPDs need constant excitement — even the good kind?  I’ve always felt he needed constant entertainment and wonder if this is akin to tv volume...

Yes.   My Ex usually had the TV going (quite loud)  and the radio playing at the same time.    What I saw as peace and quiet, she saw as void and empty.    It wasn't unusual for her to have the TV on, the radio on, be on the computer and have the stereo playing.   The outside, the outer world had to match her inner world.

Continue using the tools because your relationship with your h will continue regardless of your marital status since you have children together.

empath is correct.    you are going to continue to have a relationship with your husband regardless of your marital status.     the tools will help make you more comfortable and protect you emotionally.     

what are you going to do today that is self care?

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

this seems very likely.   however, if this was only about ending the marriage would he also walk away from his lifetime career and place of business?    would he have trouble following healthy patterns of eating, sleeping and hygiene?    Likely not.    mental health professionals no longer use the term nervous breakdown because it doesn't really describe a specific mental illness.    Generally, it's understood to mean that a person is no longer able to function normally.    His ability to function normally seems very limited right now.

He’s in a back and forth. He showers, but wears dirty clothes.  Doesn’t work for nearly 2 months, working to secure interim financing. Has not checked in on me (no surprise) or the kids to see how anyone is doing with stress/stuck at home, soothing himself with loud tv shows.

During “normal” life he wears a suit during the week and goes comfortable on w/e, and will often slip into favorites he wears over and over (despite having plenty of choices, at home he has regulars). But, during normal times, they would be clean mostly because I washed them during the week. Still find it strange he’s wearing dirty.  A small spot always bothered him...definitely if we were seeing others, wonder now if he has no one to impress he just doesn’t care. Of note, one of his coworkers is quite messy in dress and H gets really upset about it.

So, yes, maybe mental breakdown is right (I’m old, haha, so this may be more familiar to me!).

BPD is a serious mental illness.    It's called borderline because its on the border of neurosis and psychosis.   BPD is often co mobrid (coexists) with other mental health disorders.

Okay, thank you for clarifying.  I was worried it would be something in addition like schizophrenia unless BPD is/can be considered serious mental illness. Not that it doesn’t feel serious, it does, just know there’s levels and criteria (been a long time since abnormal psych, again, I’m old).

No one is psychotic 100% of the time.    My P said that to me when my Ex had a maniac episode.    Most of our partners had cracks showing and then some event or something triggered a decline into more dysfunctional behavior.   Sometimes the trigger is very obvious, like stolencrumbs' move.   sometimes the trigger is minuscule.    the last trigger for my Ex was the cat.  nothing wrong with the cat mind you.    Just the cat being a cat.

I hear this.  Think why it can be so confusing. Reactions do not match incident.  

I am curious, is he the same age as his mother was when she had her event?

Yes, but his mother was blindsided by divorce and affair. She didn’t have the rage/BPD traits that I can recall.  She just retreated into a church group despite having kids at home. So she would go to work at like 8am-3pm and then go to the group until like 2 in the morning, repeat every day. On the weekends, she would be gone Saturday at least by 9am and wouldn’t return until Sunday night. There was one brother who was about 20 at home, but worked a regular job.  Then a 16 yo brother and 11 yo sister.  The 20 yo tried to help some but wasn’t equipped on big picture things. 16 yo did his own thing and 11 yo fended for herself, with older checking in some. We would take her on w/e since we worked during week and coordinate with the 20 yo during the week and try to stop by at least once. This went on for years but eventually mom sort of reappeared. She managed to work and even switched to a better job (not great, but a bit more money) after being let go.  She seemed to function well enough from then on even though she has some indescribably annoying personality traits.  Still not BPDish, though.

I do wonder, however, if it is really his father, who would have been same age and was impetus for divorce (affair).  Both occurring when oldest child completing college (father would have been slightly younger but carried on affair for about 5 years before mom found out). And H has been increasingly BPD for about this much time (had super hard time when son went away to school, but other possible triggers, too).

The thing is with H’s dad, I didn’t know him for long. He was soo engaging and bent over backwards for you (too much).  He was always the good time. Like always “what do you need?” or “what can I do for you?”  Even “ do you need money?” and he didn’t have a lot. So I always thought he was good time Charlie, but the affair was revealed soon after H and I married so I only have those “good” memories and H basically never spoke to him again. Not so much b/c he didn’t want to ( he was mad and disappointed for sure), but b/c his mom was being unreasonable about any kids seeing dad so he took her side to make it easier on his siblings. Idk, that was his excuse.

H’s dad spent time in an orphanage and was separated from his siblings for some time. They did reunite and grow up together, but I don’t have a lot of details. I believe H’s grandmother (dads side) had some kind of mental issue at some point. She was dead by the time I came around so only heard mention a time or two.

Writing this it seems more clear. I kind of feel bad for him now too, but absolutely canNOT live with breaking things and name calling and relentless blaming.
 

Yes.   My Ex usually had the TV going (quite loud)  and the radio playing at the same time.    What I saw as peace and quiet, she saw as void and empty.    It wasn't unusual for her to have the TV on, the radio on, be on the computer and have the stereo playing.   The outside, the outer world had to match her inner world.

empath is correct.    you are going to continue to have a relationship with your husband regardless of your marital status.     the tools will help make you more comfortable and protect you emotionally.

Yes, he definitely hurts my ears with the tv. I can’t stand it and will often lower it when I can. He also likes to always be doing something. He cannot (usually) just sit still.

And, yes, I’ll have to continue tools and have defined boundaries regardless.    

what are you going to do today that is self care?

Last day of homeschooling this week. Gonna wrap that up, take care of some odds and ends, which is self care so I can not think about them anymore. Maybe do some baking with the kids and a movie. Maybe a walk. And planning for tomorrow.

Thanks BabyDucks...you lead me down paths I didn’t know were there!

'ducks
[/quote]

[babyducks]

Okay, thank you for clarifying.  I was worried it would be something in addition like schizophrenia unless BPD is/can be considered serious mental illness. Not that it doesn’t feel serious, it does, just know there’s levels and criteria (been a long time since abnormal psych, again, I’m old).

took me a while to find this data.

47% of the time BPD males are also comorbid with NPD.
31% of the time BPD males are also comorbid with Bipolar 1.

good thread here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=58157.0

[formflier]

Hey, I would hope for input from others about the bills.

Here is my idea.

Get a glass of water or drink (maybe one for you and one for him) and stop by and see him.  

"Hey babe, can we get together in 10 minutes or so and discuss bills."

If he is somewhat reasonable.  Have a discussion.  If he gets odd "Let's take a break so I can think about what's been said"

If he just flips out on you, then you know it's all in your lap and we can help in different thread.

There is the option to just do it yourself and "cut him out".  I'm reluctant for you to do that without "dipping your toe in the water".

At this point please don't do anything, we need to get wisdom from everyone.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hey, I would hope for input from others about the bills.

Here is my idea.

Get a glass of water or drink (maybe one for you and one for him) and stop by and see him.  

"Hey babe, can we get together in 10 minutes or so and discuss bills."

If he is somewhat reasonable.  Have a discussion.  If he gets odd "Let's take a break so I can think about what's been said"

If he just flips out on you, then you know it's all in your lap and we can help in different thread.

There is the option to just do it yourself and "cut him out".  I'm reluctant for you to do that without "dipping your toe in the water".

At this point please don't do anything, we need to get wisdom from everyone.

Thanks FF. I will wait on input.

He is being very capable right now with our oldest sorting out a few issues there. The rest are staying away, they don’t much enjoy dealing with him under normal circumstances. But, I am the true trigger.

I am almost certain he will yell at me if I try to speak with him and will undoubtedly go off on insane tangents.  And I’m not sure I can “manage” the conversation.

There are some possible outcomes that I wanted to share but ran out of time. I’ll put into that thread.

Will check for feedback on both.

Thank you!

[babyducks]

Hey, I would hope for input from others about the bills.

I think you missed a separate thread FF.   Check here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343929.0

Get a glass of water or drink (maybe one for you and one for him) and stop by and see him.  

"Hey babe, can we get together in 10 minutes or so and discuss bills."

I would disagree strongly and here is why... the last time UBH made a mildly affectionate gesture... she put her hand on his shoulder... he threw his coffee and broke a decoration, retreated to the bedroom and just started to surface.  days later.

the slight improvement in his mood and demeanor seems to have been obtained by him retreating away.  

my concern is,  if UBH comes across his self imposed boundary of no contact this abruptly he will retreat away again.    

I would advise smaller steps to initiate contact.     nothing that could remind of the thrown coffee.    nothing that could trigger 'don't mother me'.    nothing that is    emotional, like an affectionate nickname.    

and also - UBH hasn't decided which direction she wishes to take the relationship yet... so an affectionate over tone might be disingenuous if she chooses to end the martial relationship.

 
'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

I think you missed a separate thread FF.   Check here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343929.0

I would disagree strongly and here is why... the last time UBH made a mildly affectionate gesture... she put her hand on his shoulder... he threw his coffee and broke a decoration, retreated to the bedroom and just started to surface.  days later.

the slight improvement in his mood and demeanor seems to have been obtained by him retreating away.  

my concern is,  if UBH comes across his self imposed boundary of no contact this abruptly he will retreat away again.    

I would advise smaller steps to initiate contact.     nothing that could remind of the thrown coffee.    nothing that could trigger 'don't mother me'.    nothing that is    emotional, like an affectionate nickname.    

and also - UBH hasn't decided which direction she wishes to take the relationship yet... so an affectionate over tone might be disingenuous if she chooses to end the martial relationship.

Thanks BabyDucks,

I am hesitant to cross this boundary, too. The problem is, he likely won’t EVER, so if we ever speak again, it will almost certainly have to be my overture. I’m not sure I’m there yet, though.

On the other hand, I don’t want it to be too cold that he uses that to “prove” I don’t care about him. But still agree with BIFF.



  Anyone else up for sharing their thoughts?

[I Am Redeemed]

Anyone else up for sharing their thoughts?

Okay, I realize there is a separate thread about the whole bill situation thing, and I confess I have not yet read the updates over there, but since this question was asked here I will answer.

I am inclined to agree with 'ducks, and here is why:

She makes a valid point about the last time he blew up and broke stuff simply because UBPDhelp put a hand on his shoulder.

Also, I think it is clear that he is in no way, shape, or form capable of handling situations like bills at this time. If he has worked for many years (even if he has not always been transparent about income and when it will be coming in) it is clear that he knows that his income is essential in paying bills, yet, he has not been working. He has apparently shut down completely in light of the pandemic situation (amongst other unknown triggers). My belief is that he has been hanging on mentally by a thread for whatever reason and the coronovirus thing has pushed him past capacity for his level of mental health.

He must know that bills will be due. Why he is not working in order to pay them, or how he thinks they will be paid is unclear and most likely due to his mental state. He may not be able to come up with a solution for how they will be paid and it is pretty obvious to me that he is in full ostrich mode as far as this is concerned. It is possible that he knows that his lack of work is putting a financial strain on the family and this may be adding to his anxiety and depression which may be displayed by irritability, volatility, and attempts to distract himself.

I believe he is in a mental health crisis and there is very low probability that a conversation which brings up all of the issues he may be fighting very hard to keep at bay will be in any way productive. In fact, speaking as one who has been through a situation where her husband experienced a complete mental breakdown/psychotic episodes(s) and stopped working, sitting home all day and leaving her to fend for herself and her child re: household duties, bills, etc.,  I think it may be dangerous, "poking the bear", so to speak.

[formflier]

For clarity:  I agree with others and officially "rescind" the idea of approaching him now about bills.

At some point in the future you will need to build up your tool box of things that you do to "dip your toe in the water" to see if communication is possible.

The principle behind those tools are something neutral, succinct and in a situation where you can quickly exit if r/s "temps" start to rise.

Switching gears: 

Where are things at on the list of questions for DV shelter and making another phone call?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hello all,

Sorry for the delay. The last day and a half veered in an unrelated direction that required my attention. Thankfully that is resolved.

So just a quick update. I have not checked in on bills. H sent a message to the family trying to be funny. Couple kids replied but I did not. Just stayed out of it. But, due to the issue yesterday I needed input from H and older kids so I sent a message to them. H responded both in short replies and emojis. Some directly to my questions. He even tried to help resolve with alternatives. The biggest change, however, was him returning dirty dishes to the kitchen (on his own). Shocking. At dinner announcement (don’t ask me what kind of nutty virtual dinner bell we have going, I just don’t like to scream to get them to come or go find people), I also did a BIFF bring dishes. H did NOT eat with us but when he came later, he did bring dishes.

So, he seems calmer but will not interact. I think he’s enjoying being free from me and is coming to baseline knowing he’ll be gone when pandemic is over.

FF, I must admit I have not made it to my questions for DV. I have a lot of little fires I’m trying to put out so haven’t had enough time to think it through. 

I’ll keep working on the tools.  More when I have some more time.

Thank you all for your support. I believe the path forward is becoming clearer and clearer, now just need to make it successful.

[stolencrumbs]

So, he seems calmer but will not interact. I think he’s enjoying being free from me and is coming to baseline knowing he’ll be gone when pandemic is over.

Hi UPDHelp,
I think you're doing a lot of great work here and making a lot of progress on thinking through things. I just wanted to touch on this comment briefly, as there have been other similar comments in the thread. I would just caution against trying to do too much mind reading or guessing about what he's thinking or planning. To go back to an earlier point, pwBPD don't necessarily think like the rest of us, and so our assumptions about what they're thinking are often wrong. I know that was the case for me. And thinking about what the other person is thinking or planning can distract from thinking about yourself and what you want and how you can get there. It's possible that's what he's thinking, but actually doing that requires some planning that it seems like he's unlikely to be capable of right now. I don't know how much time you spend wondering and worrying about this (again, I spent a lot of time doing this), but I'd encourage trying to keep most of your focus on other things--on paying bills, taking care of yourself, taking care of your kids, managing your interactions with your H, staying calm, thinking through all the information and feedback you've gotten, thinking about how to protect yourself, reflecting on what you want, thinking about how to steer things in the direction you want, etc. Whatever he's thinking or feeling now will probably change (and change and change again). If the focus is on that, it's likely to be a moving target.

[formflier]

I would encourage you to be "deliberate" about maintaining "forward progress" on important issues, such as DV.

So..whatever it takes, make some more questions and try to make the call tomorrow.  Don't worry about getting "all" of them answered.  Most likely a call will generate more questions or angles.

After a call or two more, my goal for you is that you can walk through each step in the process (in your head) and you have answers for how each of those steps work, what you need to have/do.

My guess is that the situation will look a lot less scary after all that is done.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi UPDHelp,
I think you're doing a lot of great work here and making a lot of progress on thinking through things. I just wanted to touch on this comment briefly, as there have been other similar comments in the thread. I would just caution against trying to do too much mind reading or guessing about what he's thinking or planning. To go back to an earlier point, pwBPD don't necessarily think like the rest of us, and so our assumptions about what they're thinking are often wrong. I know that was the case for me. And thinking about what the other person is thinking or planning can distract from thinking about yourself and what you want and how you can get there. It's possible that's what he's thinking, but actually doing that requires some planning that it seems like he's unlikely to be capable of right now. I don't know how much time you spend wondering and worrying about this (again, I spent a lot of time doing this), but I'd encourage trying to keep most of your focus on other things--on paying bills, taking care of yourself, taking care of your kids, managing your interactions with your H, staying calm, thinking through all the information and feedback you've gotten, thinking about how to protect yourself, reflecting on what you want, thinking about how to steer things in the direction you want, etc. Whatever he's thinking or feeling now will probably change (and change and change again). If the focus is on that, it's likely to be a moving target.

Thanks stolencrumbs.  I hear you. Definitely a moving target. And I’m definitely programmed to want to “know” what he’s thinking/how he’s going to react trying to prevent an explosion. I know I’ve said this before, but it is the only way I can explain it — I don’t know what normal looks like anymore. So, I’d really like to go about my business, which I have been mostly this past week.  

I struggle with what I wish for, but knowing that I almost certainly can’t have that.  I’ve even told him as much when “discussing” and he asks what I want.  I can’t have what I want.   I’ve changed want to wish because that’s about as real as it is.  That was probably the wrong approach with him, but I’ve never had to work this hard to communicate.

The other side of my struggle is definitely then FOG, although I don’t feel any real obligation to him, I do to our kids.

So, I am not taking any of this lightly and am looking for some point I know what to do.

I’m trying, I really am.