HELP - I’ve unleashed the beast, so to speak part 5

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Mod note: this thread was split from this discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343936.30

I would encourage you to be "deliberate" about maintaining "forward progress" on important issues, such as DV.

So..whatever it takes, make some more questions and try to make the call tomorrow.  Don't worry about getting "all" of them answered.  Most likely a call will generate more questions or angles.

After a call or two more, my goal for you is that you can walk through each step in the process (in your head) and you have answers for how each of those steps work, what you need to have/do.

My guess is that the situation will look a lot less scary after all that is done.

Hi FF,

Thank you.  I will think some more tonight when it’s quiet and try to call then or in the morning.

He hasn’t broken anything (sounds pathetic, I know) since last week. Prior to that it was very rarely. I do understand ZERO times is normal AND that he could do so or worse at any point. So I will prepare.

The other steps have potential to ratchet things up and likely no turning back so I’m also thinking these through just to make sure I’ve covered my bases before proceeding. I’m close but not yet — and I know there’s a timeliness required here as well so I’m also keeping that in mind.

I’m curious, you’ve always been a proponent of trying to make things better, but you seem to have shifted more in the direction of this is over or should be.

Could you share the tipping point from your view?

I feel like I’m at the top of a mountain sliding down one side but with my fingers still holding onto the other, but slowing losing my grip. And there is H prying my fingers off.

Thanks for sharing.

[UBPDHelp]

Mod note: this thread was split from this discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343936.30

I would encourage you to be "deliberate" about maintaining "forward progress" on important issues, such as DV.

So..whatever it takes, make some more questions and try to make the call tomorrow.  Don't worry about getting "all" of them answered.  Most likely a call will generate more questions or angles.

After a call or two more, my goal for you is that you can walk through each step in the process (in your head) and you have answers for how each of those steps work, what you need to have/do.

My guess is that the situation will look a lot less scary after all that is done.

Hi FF,

Thank you.  I will think some more tonight when it’s quiet and try to call then or in the morning.

He hasn’t broken anything (sounds pathetic, I know) since last week. Prior to that it was very rarely. I do understand ZERO times is normal AND that he could do so or worse at any point. So I will prepare.

The other steps have potential to ratchet things up and likely no turning back so I’m also thinking these through just to make sure I’ve covered my bases before proceeding. I’m close but not yet — and I know there’s a timeliness required here as well so I’m also keeping that in mind.

I’m curious, you’ve always been a proponent of trying to make things better, but you seem to have shifted more in the direction of this is over or should be.

Could you share the tipping point from your view?

I feel like I’m at the top of a mountain sliding down one side but with my fingers still holding onto the other, but slowing losing my grip. And there is H prying my fingers off.

Thanks for sharing.

[formflier]

I’m curious, you’ve always been a proponent of trying to make things better, but you seem to have shifted more in the direction of this is over or should be.
 

Hmm...please don't get that "vibe" from me.

I'm not saying stay or go.

I am saying you should be 100% ready to go...ready to call/text 911...ready to implement your plan.  No worrying about the unknown.  It will be "known" because you have talked it through with the people that will be helping you with your plan (should it ever come to be that you need to use it)

None of us can predict the future of your relationship.  That being said, I KNOW that a prepared person is less fearful and has a greater chance of effectively using "tools" in heated moments.  They also are better prepared to disengage and walk away (which is kind a tool).

So, I believe it's accurate to say that your BEST chance to improve your relationship is to be fully prepared to LEAVE it.  (big breath...think about this and let it sink in)

Use the "down time" of relative calm to prepare for the next storm!

Make sense?

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

I’m definitely programmed to want to “know” what he’s thinking/how he’s going to react trying to prevent an explosion.

Forgive me, but this is childhood 101.

Nobody deserves what you’re currently going through. You’ve gotten very sound advice here. I read you asking a question about “the tipping point”. Insane behavior often augments people to believe that what they live within is normal. Our minds can become so noisy and clouded that we can’t simply step away from what is hurting us. Stepping away can be very complicated, but it is a real and logical option.

It’s impossible to manage conversations with these folks. They possess no logic or self awareness. Sad for them, but not for us.

[UBPDHelp]

Hmm...please don't get that "vibe" from me.

I'm not saying stay or go.

I am saying you should be 100% ready to go...ready to call/text 911...ready to implement your plan.  No worrying about the unknown.  It will be "known" because you have talked it through with the people that will be helping you with your plan (should it ever come to be that you need to use it)

None of us can predict the future of your relationship.  That being said, I KNOW that a prepared person is less fearful and has a greater chance of effectively using "tools" in heated moments.  They also are better prepared to disengage and walk away (which is kind a tool).

So, I believe it's accurate to say that your BEST chance to improve your relationship is to be fully prepared to LEAVE it.  (big breath...think about this and let it sink in)

Use the "down time" of relative calm to prepare for the next storm!

Make sense?

Hi FF,

Okay, haha, wasn’t trying to pin leaving on you. I value your take on it and honestly everything is swirling in my head.

I have held off on calling attorney due to potential conflict. But, I think I have to trust this and just get a feel for where I might stand. Have been very briefly emailing my sister. There is some business around my dad but despite years of alienation she is pretty warm to me. I suspect she is half aware there is a problem. But, I mentioned this some time ago, a family friend was inappropriate around children and got into trouble. My sister is still acquainted (not even sure she is aware, but her kids are older) and H has made some veiled threats about our kids if we were associated. So, I’ve debated calling her and explaining but it feels risky b/c I doubt she has the ability to quickly understand the magnitude of BPD and the potential threats. Like she might tell him off not understanding what that would do. And I don’t want to give him ammunition to try to take my kids. So I weigh this, too.

And I agree knowing all the options does bring a sense of calm. And, I just have this recurring “dream” of getting up, lazing in my pjs over coffee and just doing what I want without threat of being yelled at. It’s the little things. And saying this just makes me realize how far the normal line has moved in my life. I want my kids to be free to be kids, but I’m still afraid of doing it alone. And even as I say that, ultimately the only actual thing I’m afraid of is financial insecurity. I’ve basically done all of the hard, hands on parenting myself anyway.

Yep, this the closest I’ve been to leaving, and I have been close before. Definitely the longest we haven’t spoken and I know he will never try to reach out to me, I will have to go to him if we ever speak. And then there goes another piece of my soul, so fo now, I hold onto what I have left.

Bless you for sticking with me!

[UBPDHelp]

I’m definitely programmed to want to “know” what he’s thinking/how he’s going to react trying to prevent an explosion.

Forgive me, but this is childhood 101.

Nobody deserves what you’re currently going through.

This is a double-edged sword.  Good to be reminded (thank you), but also incredibly hard to hear.

You’ve gotten very sound advice here. I read you asking a question about “the tipping point”. Insane behavior often augments people to believe that what they live within is normal. Our minds can become so noisy and clouded that we can’t simply step away from what is hurting us. Stepping away can be very complicated, but it is a real and logical option.

It’s impossible to manage conversations with these folks. They possess no logic or self awareness. Sad for them, but not for us.

This is what I haven’t understood until I found all of you. I tried to have things make sense to me and to him. I could never understand why he couldn’t see it. And truthfully, I still don’t fully understand. How does he function in the world?  How do some people think he’s so smart (he pulls off some big deals for clients) and engaging, but yet is so unable to have a “normal” conversation.

Like even though I’ve said he can make forgetting the dry cleaning about being a slut, I have always thought he believed it. But I’m starting to see it’s just his go-to when he doesn’t want to deal with whatever issue there is. And yet he is definitely hung up on my past but reveling in his, which I believe is very exaggerated.

All just sounds terrible. I would rather be alone with my kids that put up with this double standard and near constant dysregulation.

Thank you JNChell, appreciate your input.

[JNChell]

I apologize if my words seem harsh. Hard to know, but true. You know, once I really grasped what my situation really is, it became very interesting. Full of pain and confusion? Yes. But it began to make sense and easier to sift through. You’re right, this community is priceless. Therapy helped me, but this community has been a real eye opener and support. Peers are priceless. Folks that are actually going through this stuff and understand how mind bending it can be. We have a voice here.

One thing at a time. I’m sorry if my comment about childhood made you feel worse. It took me going through unhealthy relationships to start to pinpoint things.

He has a very different world view than you do. It won’t change. He copes by projecting his feelings on to you. This is simply how his brain is wired. That’s how he functions in the world. He’s constantly surviving. You have empathy and can feel for him, but he doesn’t have the mental capacity to feel for you. Try to step away and see him as a toddler. That’s what he is, but in an adult body.

Somehow, folks with troubled pasts seem to find each other and connect in unhealthy ways. It’s passionate and emotional. We can get stuck. One thing that really sticks out to me within the testimonies that I’ve read here is that one person is self aware, and the other isn’t. Whatever direction that you decide to go, remember that. He will never be self aware. You’ll have to do that for him.

Constant dysregulation doesn’t seem like a good way to live. I tried to stay in it myself. It went very bad. Are you leaning more towards leaving, or are your heart strings still being tugged?

[UBPDHelp]

Hi JNChell,

I apologize if my words seem harsh. Hard to know, but true. You know, once I really grasped what my situation really is, it became very interesting. Full of pain and confusion? Yes. But it began to make sense and easier to sift through. You’re right, this community is priceless. Therapy helped me, but this community has been a real eye opener and support. Peers are priceless. Folks that are actually going through this stuff and understand how mind bending it can be. We have a voice here.

One thing at a time. I’m sorry if my comment about childhood made you feel worse. It took me going through unhealthy relationships to start to pinpoint things.

No apology necessary...we all have heard far worse!  It’s funny/not funny, I’ve often said it felt like a 2 yo stomping his feet. I’ve had 4 of those so I know what that looks like.

He has a very different world view than you do. It won’t change. He copes by projecting his feelings on to you. This is simply how his brain is wired. That’s how he functions in the world. He’s constantly surviving. You have empathy and can feel for him, but he doesn’t have the mental capacity to feel for you. Try to step away and see him as a toddler. That’s what he is, but in an adult body.

It IS mind bending. Like how does he negotiate for clients but lose his sh!t if I ask him how his day was (NEVER asks how mine was) or forget his deodorant at the supermarket?

Anyway, I think I’m finally learning it won’t make sense to me no matter how many times I try. I just haven’t been able to stop trying to understand.

And, the more I reflect, the more I remember things that surely should have been red flags. Even in all of this with his hyper focus on my past, he’s admitted that none of his friends (some our mutual friends) would  have cared that I slept with someone else (before we even met) if they were dating me and that they have no idea he feels this way. I think most people would be shocked at the things he’s said and I have most in writing. I never go back and read them. Disgusting.

Constant dysregulation doesn’t seem like a good way to live. I tried to stay in it myself. It went very bad. Are you leaning more towards leaving, or are your heart strings still being tugged?

Agree. I WISH I could have my family intact. I WISH I could have a “normal” relationship. But then who is the 2 yo?  Can’t always get what you want.

But, stuck at home so going to try to take this time to plan and think through options like FF suggested. It’s a crazy time to do so with such limited contact with outside world and so much uncertainty. 

Thank you again for sharing. I promise I don’t offend easily. 
     

[JNChell]

Your skin has gotten very thick. Don’t let it harden your heart too much. This stuff is hard and can narrow how we see the world.

These folks present very different to the outside. Behind closed doors is a different story. I get it. It can start to feel like we don’t even exist.

He’s very focused on your past. Could it be that it’s easier for him to focus on your past rather than facing his? Does it ever feel like he throws things in your face because he’s feeling bad about himself?

I have a son with my ex. He’s 5. It’s been a very difficult road, and I’ve contributed to that. I’m learning about ways to make it easier. It’s showing some fruit. I’m not in the trenches anymore though like you are, but I can definitely understand how you’re feeling. Children and the emotional investment that you’ve made. It’s very hard to listen to what our minds are telling us. Pride is one hell of a beta blocker.

FF is a very wise and generous member. Being stuck at home is a whole new addition to these dynamics. Take good care and keep posting.

[babyducks]

H sent a message to the family trying to be funny. Couple kids replied but I did not. Just stayed out of it. But, due to the issue yesterday I needed input from H and older kids so I sent a message to them. H responded both in short replies and emojis. Some directly to my questions. He even tried to help resolve with alternatives. The biggest change, however, was him returning dirty dishes to the kitchen (on his own). ... I also did a BIFF bring dishes. H did NOT eat with us but when he came later, he did bring dishes.

that's encouraging news.   good job UBPDHelp.   it sounds like he is slowly returning to baseline,... and you are giving him the space to do that.    nicely done.

[UBPDHelp]

Your skin has gotten very thick. Don’t let it harden your heart too much. This stuff is hard and can narrow how we see the world.

I do have fairly thick skin at this point. It’s almost the little things that bother me more easily.  Should be able to just brush them off (which I mostly do), but also like why are you harassing me on something so insignificant? The constant pick, pick, pick at every little thing.  Not to say that the onslaught of rage texts doesn’t bother me, it surely does, but is also very obviously wrong. Idk if that makes sense.

My heart is definitely not hardened. I have so much love — my kids, friends, my family (what’s left is estranged). I even have so much compassion for some poor stranger in need.  And I used to love my H, but never truly got it in return. I got fake, pretend love. Motions to appear normal, but if he wasn’t getting some delusional form of what he thought was love, then the truth was shown. I ignored it and tried to believe the lie.

These folks present very different to the outside. Behind closed doors is a different story. I get it. It can start to feel like we don’t even exist.

I do intellectually understand this, but still struggle with the impossibility of it.  How much energy it must take to constantly be performing.

He’s very focused on your past. Could it be that it’s easier for him to focus on your past rather than facing his? Does it ever feel like he throws things in your face because he’s feeling bad about himself?

He is so focused on my past. I have for a very long time believed that he really felt this way (and I believe he thinks he does too).  He relates everything to it.  But, when the rage texts started coming regularly in the last 9 months (he has done this for years, just not so regularly), he was cutting/pasting the same messages over and over every time there would be an issue. Much as the verbal assaults on repeat.

I don’t know if he feels so disgusted that it’s always right beneath the surface or if he knows (consciously or subconsciously) that he can control me as I fight to avoid the assault. I wasn’t paying attention much of the time whether something else was bothering him/making him feel bad — I believed he was upset about what he was saying. Several years ago, I did see correlations with other stressors, usually work, that seemed to bring this to the surface.

He is transfixed on the first time. Totally and fully fixated on this. I could give a hundred examples of this. But the focus was not always overtly there, he managed to hide it for a long time.

So long way to say it is possible he feels bad about himself, but he really only says it’s different for guys. He says (and has even said so to our oldest) that he and his friends went through “a ton of girls”, the girls were great but nobody would want to marry them. This is a more recently shared sentiment, definitely not in the first 15-20 years of our r/s.

He’s never actually told me how many people he slept with. I wasn’t so hung up on knowing all the details in the beginning...I thought it was just his hs gf. Over the years he’s made conflicting statements, but since this is a hot button, I’ve avoided discussing it.

I have a son with my ex. He’s 5. It’s been a very difficult road, and I’ve contributed to that. I’m learning about ways to make it easier. It’s showing some fruit. I’m not in the trenches anymore though like you are, but I can definitely understand how you’re feeling. Children and the emotional investment that you’ve made. It’s very hard to listen to what our minds are telling us. Pride is one hell of a beta blocker.

That is such a fun age!  Do you share custody or what does that look like?  You sound like a great dad recognizing the importance of that little soul in your charge. To that end I have failed and hope it’s not too late. Luckily my older two just saw occasional cracks (never sexual content, just temper/rage) but did not go unscathed. My younger two have seen a lot of turmoil. My youngest has been mostly clueless but I sense more awareness lately (I’m in the family room and H has not eaten with us in over a week), and so is staying closer to me more.

FF is a very wise and generous member. Being stuck at home is a whole new addition to these dynamics. Take good care and keep posting.
[/quote]

As of yesterday they’ve extended our stay home until mid-May. I don’t know how we’re gonna make it another month and a half.

I have been blessed with tremendous support from so many wonderful members here. Thank you for being one of them.

[babyducks]

I’m definitely programmed to want to “know” what he’s thinking/how he’s going to react trying to prevent an explosion.

Forgive me, but this is childhood 101.

just to tag a small note onto what JNChell wrote here.     being 'childhood 101' doesn't mean it was a bad or negative childhood experience.     for example.    I was raised by my grandparents.  I was moved to their household to get me away from my mother who was struggling but also because they were both handicapped in some way and I provided necessary household assistance for them.   carrying.   fetching.    chores.     essentially I was raised to be a caregiver.  and that's fine.   within reason.   I needed to learn as an adult when to stop care giving and put my needs first.   

[babyducks]

I am saying you should be 100% ready to go...ready to call/text 911...ready to implement your plan. 

the most dangerous time in a DV relationship is when the abused attempts to leave.    that's absolutely bottom line basic Domestic Violence 101.   the most dangerous time is when the abused attempts to break free.

whether you are leaving in the heat of an argument,... or if you are leaving after a carefully thought out cooling off phase... exiting is when thing can flash over and damage can occur.

i would suggest that part of your plan is how to leave the house in the middle of a heated argument.   how do you get the kids out?    what if they panic and rush to cling to him.   do you leave without them?   if 911 is called what is the local protocol?   

if you are leaving after a carefully thought out cooling off phase... checking with a lawyer about how to protect assets...  what about a restraining order?    temporary agreements?    there is a tremendous amount of information to process there and realistically you can only do so much at a time.

[babyducks]

It IS mind bending. Like how does he negotiate for clients but lose his sh!t if I ask him how his day was (NEVER asks how mine was) or forget his deodorant at the supermarket?
     

because BPD is an illness that is most exposed by intimacy.    the more intimate the relationship,   the closer the relationship... the more likely BPD will be evident.    people who mirror in order survive can mirror a superficial relationship with less effort.    although I am willing to bet his business clients have some idea that something is off.

[UBPDHelp]

that's encouraging news.   good job UBPDHelp.   it sounds like he is slowly returning to baseline,... and you are giving him the space to do that.    nicely done.

Hi BabyDucks,

That’s what it seems (seemed) like. He still won’t come eat with us. He’s still making disparaging comments about me to our oldest.  Thankfully my oldest pointed out he was wrong about something he said and the next day it was proven. He retreated back to our room at that point.

He’s discussing his previous exploits with our oldest (not explicit details) and saying he and his friends went through a ton of girls (which is simply a disgusting thing to say in the first place, let alone to your child). He’s watching countless movies about the first time. You wouldn’t think there were so many —definitely more than I realized, but maybe I’m not searching for it. He is focused on a pic someone (maybe him) posted of him and his hs gf on Facebook and has showed our oldest. He’s made comments that they share a lot of friends but they haven’t connected and is almost sad about it. He doesn’t tell me this, it gets relayed to me. But there are occasional comments about her or his past. Never bothered me cuz who really cares, but feels so horrendous based on his take on mine and not ever being able to make the slightest innocent reference to it. Hypocrisy.

Anyway, slightly better for his behavior.  Still a bit of a yo-yo but at least I’m not getting direct assaults, so that’s a bit better.

I just shared with JNChell that as of yesterday they’ve extended our stay home until mid-May. I hate feeling trapped at home with this going on with him (but also know the pandemic helped push him over).  I think I’m hoping we get back to our “normal” just to get through this time but still being able to get plans in order.  The uncertainty of the future is definitely making me more nervous to make a move and definitely don’t want to announce it trapped at home.

So will keep plodding along without infringing on his space and see if he comes around.

Thank you for words of encouragement.

[babyducks]

He is so focused on my past. I have for a very long time believed that he really felt this way (and I believe he thinks he does too).  He relates everything to it.  

He is transfixed on the first time. Totally and fully fixated on this.

So long way to say it is possible he feels bad about himself, but he really only says it’s different for guys.

He's projecting.     this is not about your past.   he is manufacturing a dynamic, an explanation, a reason to make himself feel better about something.   we could all speculate on why he is transfixed on the first time.    but in the end all the speculation would boil down to "hurt people, hurt people".   considering the intensity he is pouring into it... I would say the "hurt" he is trying to cover up is pretty big.

sorry for all the double posting...    

'ducks  

[UBPDHelp]

just to tag a small note onto what JNChell wrote here.     being 'childhood 101' doesn't mean it was a bad or negative childhood experience.     for example.    I was raised by my grandparents.  I was moved to their household to get me away from my mother who was struggling but also because they were both handicapped in some way and I provided necessary household assistance for them.   carrying.   fetching.    chores.     essentially I was raised to be a caregiver.  and that's fine.   within reason.   I needed to learn as an adult when to stop care giving and put my needs first.   

Hi BabyDucks,

I hear you on this. His behavior does seem childish (I’ve said so a few times), and I guess some of mine is, too. I don’t know exactly what his childhood was like. His dad was charming and a good time. I always believed that, but didn’t know him very well. H told me early on that he hated his mother.  I thought she did something to him (spanking?) but I sometimes wonder if his charming father was BPD, his mother was trapped in what she didn’t understand and failed at it like I have, and H feels she didn’t protect him from his dad and that’s why he hates her. This requires H’s mother’s and father’s roles to be reversed from the outward — but it makes sense to me. Any thoughts on this premise?

And, I know I’m once again trying to make sense of it. It’s like I have a broken compass and I just want to know which way is actually north.

You have found such an amazing space of self awareness and even acceptance of your childhood, relationships and the other side. You are so strong and should be so proud of where you are. #lifegoals

[UBPDHelp]

the most dangerous time in a DV relationship is when the abused attempts to leave.    that's absolutely bottom line basic Domestic Violence 101.   the most dangerous time is when the abused attempts to break free.

whether you are leaving in the heat of an argument,... or if you are leaving after a carefully thought out cooling off phase... exiting is when thing can flash over and damage can occur.

i would suggest that part of your plan is how to leave the house in the middle of a heated argument.   how do you get the kids out?    what if they panic and rush to cling to him.   do you leave without them?   if 911 is called what is the local protocol?   

if you are leaving after a carefully thought out cooling off phase... checking with a lawyer about how to protect assets...  what about a restraining order?    temporary agreements?    there is a tremendous amount of information to process there and realistically you can only do so much at a time.

Yes, it is a lot to figure out. There is no realistic way to leave when we’re all home. In fact, I’m hoping when this is all over (pandemic) he’ll be the one to go so he’ll be less likely to blame me. But, he does seem incapable of completely leaving regardless of what he says.

My oldest is planning to move out when the pandemic is over. I hope that can happen quickly. My second oldest is also an adult, albeit still very immature (realizing toxic fallout) and the kindest soul. Then youngest will be most upset but there is so much love between us if I can muster a brave face, we can get through. My youngest son (few years older than my youngest) wants out of this situation. Hates everything about it but also doesn’t understand all the pieces. And is acting out a bit. Some typical age, some a bit more. We are very close so I believe with some peace can reel this back in. But feel on borrowed time.

I’m gathering essentials and am willing to leave virtually everything else behind if I have to. I have a code word for my middle ones so they know to grab the youngest and where to go to be safe. Again, I’m keeping distance to not escalate anything and would like to avoid any notice if we go so that won’t be necessary, but it’s in place in case it’s needed. And planning a more orchestrated extraction if possible.

I won’t leave my kids. I don’t think they’ll go to him.  I’ve told there where to go (they can get there easily, can block the door if needed and can get out the window).  But I will not leave them.

I have been compiling a list of questions for a lawyer. I was hoping we’d be done staying home at the end of the month but another 2-3 weeks for sure has been added now. I can’t strike with an attorney unless H is gone or I am. No way we can be in same house with him stewing over me.

So my goal for now is to keep things calm and quietly plan what this might look like if we go.

[UBPDHelp]

because BPD is an illness that is most exposed by intimacy.    the more intimate the relationship,   the closer the relationship... the more likely BPD will be evident.    people who mirror in order survive can mirror a superficial relationship with less effort.    although I am willing to bet his business clients have some idea that something is off.

This is so hard to grasp. Exhausted just thinking about it!

He is masterful with clients. Some love him b/c he’s relentless. But he’s smart and cunning too. Clients probably do know. I know his partner does. Saw an email he sent him recently. Very reminiscent of my rage messages sans the sexual content and not as long. He was proud of it. His mom has been on the receiving end too, but obviously not as bad. Definite cracks. Doubt anyone understands it or would stand up to it.

[UBPDHelp]

He's projecting.     this is not about your past.   he is manufacturing a dynamic, an explanation, a reason to make himself feel better about something.   we could all speculate on why he is transfixed on the first time.    but in the end all the speculation would boil down to "hurt people, hurt people".   considering the intensity he is pouring into it... I would say the "hurt" he is trying to cover up is pretty big.

sorry for all the double posting...    

Agree. There are some possible sources out there.

And this is not where we started, so to me it feels so unfair, as if that matters. 

[UBPDHelp]

Hello all,

I tried to get on over the weekend but was getting an error message that the site was down and then got busy with holiday stuff.

I was feeling a bit down with Easter still not speaking to H and then doing holiday stuff with just the kids. I waffled back and forth about whether I should dip my toe in (thanks FF for the perfect description).  I waffled for a good day and admit I was a bit panicked not being able to get all your input. Ultimately I sent a short, specific text inviting H to partake in Easter activities. He bounced down in a great mood and helped decorate and solve some minor household issues and such. Had a great couple of days (okay maybe just ok, but improvement). 

Then, yesterday he woke up and was just poking everyone with snide comments. Just really hard to be around. I tried to gently redirect him to some of the mini steps forward and positives moving forward. He just insists that the stress of the pandemic is harder for him and that I’m doing nothing to support him. He wants sex and shoulder rubs and yet he shuddered the last time I put my hand on his shoulder (I was trying to come from a more compassionate understanding of his stress then) and that’s what started the last rage and 8-9 day no contact (in same house). He doesn’t see that it’s hard to come off that treatment and then immediately be concerned with making him feel better. And he’s not concerned with the stress any of this is causing me. He says he has it worse.

But, he’s working on a plan to resume business when they allow it again. He doesn’t love it (he has been wanting to change for quite some time) but seems to understand the catastrophe that will ensue if he just up and quits. Said he’s doing it for me. True in that I like to pay my bills, but not true in that I balked when he maxed out mortgage and cars but he insisted that he makes the money (most anyway) and that it drove him to keep working hard and he would rise to it.  Of course, I see the risk but he promises that he’s driven — until he’s not and then it all goes to sh!t.

So, we had a talk after his freak out yesterday and he pulled his usual that he’s trying but maybe we’ll divorce and I’m not trying to support him.  I told him all the same in return. I think he was surprised and didn’t expect that I could have those same feelings. Know I did it wrong, no tools, etc., but I’m so tired and absolutely could not allow him to think he was in any way in the right and wake up, your sh!t treatment is getting to be too much.

We’ll see what happens today. I’m expecting he’ll be in a bad mood, but I have stuff to do, so don’t have time for nonsense.

Sorry to just throw out another rant...time to refocus on effecting some change, if any is possible.

Hope you’re all doing well...gonna go catch up on what else is happening on the board!

[formflier]

I was hard for me to learn and practice that there is a certain amount of (uggg) that comes out of their mouths. 

The less you pay attention to it, the less it happens.. 

I GUARANTEE you that his "divorce talk" was not about getting a divorce, it was about complex and changing feelings that he is unable to understand, let alone express.

(commence deep breathing exercises)  Read the above again.

It sucks...there is no getting around it.  The more you can focus on ignoring or validating the comments and directing energy into your SELF CARE...the more calm your life will be.

Can you share what kind of business he (and perhaps you) are in?  I'm trying to imagine this (the MBA side of FF searching for solutions)

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

I was hard for me to learn and practice that there is a certain amount of (uggg) that comes out of their mouths. 

The less you pay attention to it, the less it happens.. 

I try but start to resent having to always be the bigger person...or even having to be a bigger person in what is supposed to be a loving r/s.

But, time and space have allowed him to come back down. He also will never be the one to break the space. That also is a tough pill to swallow.

And, after all his threats and dysregulations, the hope for the “better” future is fading much more quickly than the immense tiredness of dealing with all of this. I have said more times than I can count that the pandemic is hard on ALL of us. He believes it is worst for him. Nope, I have all the stress that comes with pandemic and all of his bs.  And, I am the one who has made sure there was food, paid bills, taught kids, household chores. He’s watched tv nonstop and slept. How is this more stressful for him?

I GUARANTEE you that his "divorce talk" was not about getting a divorce, it was about complex and changing feelings that he is unable to understand, let alone express.

Maybe, but maybe he should be concerned when the idle threats start to sound good. They do.

(commence deep breathing exercises)  Read the above again.

It sucks...there is no getting around it.  The more you can focus on ignoring or validating the comments and directing energy into your SELF CARE...the more calm your life will be.

I am trying to. And setting myself up to function more without needing anything from him. I trusted him.  He is failing me.

Can you share what kind of business he (and perhaps you) are in?  I'm trying to imagine this (the MBA side of FF searching for solutions)

He is in the legal field. I was a business consultant.  I have been home with the kids for 20 years so my experience has waned, but I am trying to jumpstart it.

I fell for every promise he made. I put up hesitation about staying home, about a bigger house, etc., but he reassured me he was able to bring in plenty of business and would rise to the occasion. He does when he wants to. But he always wants the next play thing or vacation and so despite being able to bring home enough money, he diverts it to entertaining himself (which never lasts, btw) and I am constantly scrambling to take care of the usual. Some of it is now mistrust after years of it. And, having two in college paying out of pocket for 5 years was distracting to making change. More just getting by.  So, basically, he can make a good living, we could get ahead, but he’s not interested in that. In fact, he has told me that he likes me to feel insecure financially. When he said it, I thought he was just mad discussing some surprise bill, but the sentiment has continued. I’m also not okay to continue like this.

[UBPDHelp]

And, what is this?  I call it one trait that leans to NPD (from zero psychiatric clinical experience/knowledge).

H is always the smartest person around, in his opinion.

He takes credit for every single positive that happens, can twist any
positive into somehow you only did X well because HE did something that allowed you to. It is crazy the ease with which he does this.

Running theme...I have been very distracted by 4 kids and failed myself putting this behavior in check. I wish I would have recognized how out of control it could get. Boy do I see it.

So, quick example.  I purposefully discussed gaslighting while watching a TV show with H and son a few weeks ago.  It was relevant to the show, BUT I also wanted to throw it out so H would be aware that I knew what it is and can adeptly identify it being done. Fast forward a week or so and he uses the term. Now granted I’m sure he knew before what it was, but he’s never used it in conversation with me before. I didn’t say anything. Then yesterday, I used the term again and he says I am copying him. I was like, no, I said that when we watched X two weeks ago. He is insistent that he did. I am so certain because I did it so purposefully to him.

Now, this doesn’t seem like a big deal but in reality he will do this with everything. Everything. So pretty much I’m an idiot and he is what keeps us functioning. It’s maddening and yet, who in their right mind is going to keep debating who said what first?

He does this with problem solving, too.  So, no one else can do anything right and he has to save our failures (this tends to be him doing something differently than we would, but not necessarily better). This is not want for appreciation, he gets that when deserved (and probably some even when not).  The only time he gives credit is if it’s indisputable AND there are witnesses. I kid you not.

The other side of the coin is that he can magically lay blame at your feet. Even if he does something bad, it’s because I (or his partner, or mother, etc.) did something that forced him, thereby it’s not really his fault. And, then to put icing on the cake, he says I (or any of them) don’t take responsibility.  Wow!

Just curious if anyone in the know would say this is NPD and any suggestions to redirect this tack.  

Thanks!

[babyducks]

I try but start to resent having to always be the bigger person...or even having to be a bigger person in what is supposed to be a loving r/s.

But, time and space have allowed him to come back down. He also will never be the one to break the space. That also is a tough pill to swallow.

And, after all his threats and dysregulations, the hope for the “better” future is fading much more quickly than the immense tiredness of dealing with all of this.

these relationships really really hurt.   they are painful.    it takes an enormous amount of emotional strength to be in a relationship with a BPD/NPD and not be damaged by it.  no one had unlimited amounts of emotional strength.   I certainly didn't.    what you are feeling is natural.   normal.    honestly I would be more concerned if you weren't feeling tired and discouraged.

Maybe, but maybe he should be concerned when the idle threats start to sound good. They do.

the way things played out for me; was my EX entered into a huge period of dysregulation.. still not 100 percent sure what drove it ... and she dramatically ended the relationship (for like the 6th time)    we kept two separate households.   I had a condo in the city... we both had a country place near the lake.     I deliberately kept two places because I understood the only way the relationship was going to work is if we both could separate when things got too tough.   I moved back into the condo after she ended the relationship.   almost to the day I moved,... my mother entered what turned out to be her final illness.    my Ex was very dysregulated.    but I only had enough energy for one person and one crisis.   I chose my mother.     which was the right thing to do.   My Ex asked for a two week cooling off period and I said okay... and then let that cooling off period drain away without attempting to repair the relationship.    When my Ex said 'can't you see how this relationship isn't working?'  I simply said you are right and went on my way.     I used her ending the relationship to walk away from it.   if that makes sense.   In a way I gave her what she wanted but it was my decision. 

 

I’m also not okay to continue like this.

I understand.    I remember how horrible those last 6 months were.   it was like being locked in a death match every day.      you are going to get through this.     it's not going to be overnight.     especially with the pandemic.     it's hard to live with this amount of uncertainty.      these are difficult difficult difficult issues and they drain a person.     take care of yourself.    do something nice for you today.

'ducks

[babyducks]

Just curious if anyone in the know would say this is NPD and any suggestions to redirect this tack.  

if you only ever read one book about BPD/NPD this is the one:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=203887.0

it was the best single thing I ever read.   

NPD and BPD are very close to each other.    so very very close that they are often talked about together.     there are not clear dividing lines between the two.    there is a lot of overlap.    within BPD and NPD are different expressions, at different levels of severity.

my two cents is that yes there is a lot of NPD in what your Husband does and says.

I would also say that this is hard to redirect.   you don't want to engage in circular arguments.   you can state your truth once and then move away from the conversation.   he will remember it as he used the term 'gaslighting' first.   you will not be able to convince him other wise.    you can state your truth... to validate yourself.    not to try and 'fix' him.

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Hi BabyDucks,

Thank you. Hearing your story helps in so many ways. Not to be alone, to hear confirmation of where normal lies (it feels like a flitting butterfly I can never catch, but I keep chasing), and simply just to feel like someone gets it and cares.  Thank you.

these relationships really really hurt.   they are painful.    it takes an enormous amount of emotional strength to be in a relationship with a BPD/NPD and not be damaged by it.  no one had unlimited amounts of emotional strength.   I certainly didn't.    what you are feeling is natural.   normal.    honestly I would be more concerned if you weren't feeling tired and discouraged.

It is painful and right now, honestly I just feel a bit numb. I just want to get through this time before deciding what a “normal” life might look like. I don’t seem to have a rally behind it very much anymore. I don’t know if this is temporary or permanent.

The other day after coming around for Easter, and then two days later having another meltdown, I was just done. After a couple of hours he came to me and said he didn’t want to fight with me. I have not heard that in like 10-15 years. But, I wasn’t so ready to let it go.  I used absolutely no tools (I tried, but in real time conversation I find it hard — I’m much more reflective and then prepare), but I told him that I didn’t want to fight either, but I cannot live with intense anger and breaking things. I just can’t. He seemed to get a little annoyed and we wrapped the conversation shortly thereafter. He went and did some things and stayed away for a while.

But during the conversation he kept saying how he was stressed and I wasn’t helping him. No back rubs, no sex. Maybe I’m abnormal, but I don’t feel like sex with someone who continues to treat me this way.  It baffles me that he doesn’t understand this.  Am I off base here?  It’s not so much a conscious choice as much as just no feeling or interest. And, I pointed out how the last time I tried to rub his shoulders (a conscious choice to help him de-stress), he totally rebuffed me, told me we were over and we didn’t speak for 8 days. And, why is it I need to be solely concerned with his stress level and he does not consider mine or the kids?  He didn’t have a lot to say, but as always, things are worse for him.

the way things played out for me; was my EX entered into a huge period of dysregulation.. still not 100 percent sure what drove it ... and she dramatically ended the relationship (for like the 6th time)    we kept two separate households.   I had a condo in the city... we both had a country place near the lake.     I deliberately kept two places because I understood the only way the relationship was going to work is if we both could separate when things got too tough.   I moved back into the condo after she ended the relationship.   almost to the day I moved,... my mother entered what turned out to be her final illness.    my Ex was very dysregulated.    but I only had enough energy for one person and one crisis.   I chose my mother.     which was the right thing to do.   My Ex asked for a two week cooling off period and I said okay... and then let that cooling off period drain away without attempting to repair the relationship.    When my Ex said 'can't you see how this relationship isn't working?'  I simply said you are right and went on my way.     I used her ending the relationship to walk away from it.   if that makes sense.   In a way I gave her what she wanted but it was my decision.

I’m sorry about your mom. I’ve lost both my parents (my dad this last year during all of this dysregulation like you did) and know how incredibly hard that is.  

That plan worked out well.  I’ve seen it almost play out that way here. And I think that would likely be the best approach because if I do it, I suspect there will be even more anger around it. But he has also commented that I’m trying to make him the bad guy.  I’m not, I suspect this is projection. He’s pushing me so hard to try to make me do it so he can preserve what he thinks is his good guy image. I honestly don’t know that anyone thinks that. He’s ranted at his mother, coworkers, and in front of in laws. But then he is charming and generous, but even so, deep down people know he has this in him. And, the kids are mostly aware of the nonsense.

So, my working plan is now to try to get things back to normal in the next couple of months (stay at home until mid May at this point, ugh).  I got a job but it’s not great and is going to be slow start until business picks up so won’t even start for a few weeks. And I’ll keep looking.  It’s kind of like my condo in the city as having some of my own income gives me the opportunity to do more on my own. My feelings are very raw right now. I don’t relish breaking up my family but also know if his behavior doesn’t change, we cannot continue. Deep breaths and see where things go.
 

I understand.    I remember how horrible those last 6 months were.   it was like being locked in a death match every day.      you are going to get through this.     it's not going to be overnight.     especially with the pandemic.     it's hard to live with this amount of uncertainty.      these are difficult difficult difficult issues and they drain a person.     take care of yourself.    do something nice for you today.

So true!  I am taking it one day at a time right now. Moving slowly,  no big changes or decisions and just see where things go. I see him sensing I’ve changed and maybe even realizing I’ve reached my BS threshold.  Does that make him take a step back and look at his sh!t?  Idk. Maybe it reinforces his desire to go and find someone new he can charm for a while. We shall see.

Thank you BabyDucks...I am going to enjoy Friday with something...I’ll let you know!

Take care.

[babyducks]

But during the conversation he kept saying how he was stressed and I wasn’t helping him. No back rubs, no sex. Maybe I’m abnormal, but I don’t feel like sex with someone who continues to treat me this way.  It baffles me that he doesn’t understand this.  Am I off base here?  

 a person with untreated BPD or NPD will rarely consider your feelings and will only do so if it serves them in some way.    they will always define the terms,   their needs will come first.    there will be little to no mutuality, collaboration or cooperation.

you are not off base.    your feelings are valid and legitimate.     he doesn't understand this, and probably won't without a lot of effort and consistent communication.

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

if you only ever read one book about BPD/NPD this is the one:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=203887.0

it was the best single thing I ever read.   

NPD and BPD are very close to each other.    so very very close that they are often talked about together.     there are not clear dividing lines between the two.    there is a lot of overlap.    within BPD and NPD are different expressions, at different levels of severity.

my two cents is that yes there is a lot of NPD in what your Husband does and says.

I would also say that this is hard to redirect.   you don't want to engage in circular arguments.   you can state your truth once and then move away from the conversation.   he will remember it as he used the term 'gaslighting' first.   you will not be able to convince him other wise.    you can state your truth... to validate yourself.    not to try and 'fix' him.

Thank you...I will definitely read it!  

It’s frustrating and sometimes I question my need to debate who picked the mayo, but I just see so much of anything good I’ve done with him taking credit for it. It is relentless. I seriously mean, no one can do anything positive without him saying it was his idea or they wouldn’t have if he didn’t do whatever. It does NOT stop.

He’ll do it on the most mundane to most extravagant things. And for a long time I thought I was just confused. Then I made a concerted effort to pay attention to it. It is so bizarre. And my oldest sees it, happens to him, and yet he doesn’t like when I challenge it.

I did let the gaslighting go — imagine gaslighting on gaslighting!  Has to be some kind of new record or something!

Ultimately it just bothers me that my perceived contribution has become like 10% when it’s at least 50-50 (and that’s with his financial contribution  ). So accepting it won’t change (I’ve done circles on more things than I care to remember) is my challenge. And, I do try to support his need by giving him credit when he deserves it. His need is insatiable. I think this may go to his extreme attempts to fill whatever void he has within him with vacations and things and sex and attention.  None are ever enough because those things don’t fill voids, they complement a good, honest life.

[formflier]

So did he say/explain anything about the "last time I touched you it was you that recoiled" comment?

I get it that it's hard to use tools in the moment.  I will try to pick "one thing" and stick with it..one issue.

Best,


FF

[formflier]

 

I would shy away from "credit when he deserves it". 

Lots of judgment in "deserves".

Much better to acknowledge reality and be consistently thankful.

Figures don't lie.  If he contributed 70% (give him credit for 70%)

Best,

FF