HELP - I’ve unleashed the beast, so to speak part 8

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344198.0

let's take a minute to look at what he is doing here.    as you have expressed to us, your H has a strong element of narcissism.  At the heart of any narcissist, deep down, is insecurity, and fear of exposure and humiliation. They see enemies in all disagreements. Cannot admit to the slightest imperfection.  He has to reject the idea that he told the story wrong or incorrectly.    He has to project the failure/fault onto you.

make sense?

if you 'pick up' the argument.    "I've told you a hundred times I am not autistic"   he gets something out of that... a distraction,    a place to dump his anger "She's such a hillbilly, she can't even recognize it."

It continues that better than / worse than argument we talked about up stream.

90 percent of all arguments with a BP/NP are about who is the better person, who is the worse person,   who is more deserving, who is less deserving.
It's no accident that these comments are coming in front of the children.   he is getting something from this.   in his (distorted) thinking he is proving he is the better person.

the (very high level) way to blunt this is to turn the argument back against him.    this is hard to do.    in my opinion it's advanced communications skills.     let's talk it through.

"Oh, you sound so silly when you misuse that term."   said mildly and walk away.

You haven't picked up the bait.    You aren't defending yourself or explaining about the actor.    You've handed the shame/blame/fault/failure back to him.     He isn't getting anything out of dumping his negative emotions on you.   He now looks more foolish than when he started.    

Make sense?

Yes he will erupt.    His 'payoff' isn't working for him so he will double down.   "you are such a moron blah blah blah"   this is why you have walked away.   You smile and keep going.     this isn't an argument.    it's a redirection of his negativity back at him.    

while the pandemic and shelter in place is going on,   you want to carefully work through any new ideas until you are comfortable and confident in them.    it's always safety first.

Yes, it makes sense. It’s just exhausting. And, yes, he has to be better than everyone.

Son gets an A in tough uni course — H, you wouldn’t have done that if I hadn’t told you to take that class, go to that school, pushed you in HS.

Made a fun new dessert — H — I bought you the cookbook, the oven, the baking dish. If I hadn’t, you wouldn’t have done it.

He has claimed responsibility for every good idea, event, everything. I used to believe it b/c I wasn’t paying attention or keeping score. So much that I thought I was losing my mind. Then I started paying attention. And if confronted, he does the above.  It’s like the game of degrees of separation, he can find a link back to him like nobody’s business.


I love the “you sound silly...”. Agree, he will get more impassioned, so will gauge temperature. My feelings are shot, so I can manage most of his jabs, but would obviously prefer to put a stop to it.

I realize the amount to overcome without his effort is pretty insurmountable, so just getting through is the approach for now.  

Thanks BabyDucks

[UBPDHelp]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344198.0

let's take a minute to look at what he is doing here.    as you have expressed to us, your H has a strong element of narcissism.  At the heart of any narcissist, deep down, is insecurity, and fear of exposure and humiliation. They see enemies in all disagreements. Cannot admit to the slightest imperfection.  He has to reject the idea that he told the story wrong or incorrectly.    He has to project the failure/fault onto you.

make sense?

if you 'pick up' the argument.    "I've told you a hundred times I am not autistic"   he gets something out of that... a distraction,    a place to dump his anger "She's such a hillbilly, she can't even recognize it."

It continues that better than / worse than argument we talked about up stream.

90 percent of all arguments with a BP/NP are about who is the better person, who is the worse person,   who is more deserving, who is less deserving.
It's no accident that these comments are coming in front of the children.   he is getting something from this.   in his (distorted) thinking he is proving he is the better person.

the (very high level) way to blunt this is to turn the argument back against him.    this is hard to do.    in my opinion it's advanced communications skills.     let's talk it through.

"Oh, you sound so silly when you misuse that term."   said mildly and walk away.

You haven't picked up the bait.    You aren't defending yourself or explaining about the actor.    You've handed the shame/blame/fault/failure back to him.     He isn't getting anything out of dumping his negative emotions on you.   He now looks more foolish than when he started.    

Make sense?

Yes he will erupt.    His 'payoff' isn't working for him so he will double down.   "you are such a moron blah blah blah"   this is why you have walked away.   You smile and keep going.     this isn't an argument.    it's a redirection of his negativity back at him.    

while the pandemic and shelter in place is going on,   you want to carefully work through any new ideas until you are comfortable and confident in them.    it's always safety first.

Yes, it makes sense. It’s just exhausting. And, yes, he has to be better than everyone.

Son gets an A in tough uni course — H, you wouldn’t have done that if I hadn’t told you to take that class, go to that school, pushed you in HS.

Made a fun new dessert — H — I bought you the cookbook, the oven, the baking dish. If I hadn’t, you wouldn’t have done it.

He has claimed responsibility for every good idea, event, everything. I used to believe it b/c I wasn’t paying attention or keeping score. So much that I thought I was losing my mind. Then I started paying attention. And if confronted, he does the above.  It’s like the game of degrees of separation, he can find a link back to him like nobody’s business.


I love the “you sound silly...”. Agree, he will get more impassioned, so will gauge temperature. My feelings are shot, so I can manage most of his jabs, but would obviously prefer to put a stop to it.

I realize the amount to overcome without his effort is pretty insurmountable, so just getting through is the approach for now.  

Thanks BabyDucks

[UBPDHelp]

Something "I've picked up" from this thread.

The "lens" of who is the better person. 

My typical thought process is to "depersonalize" something and focus on the issue.  This works well for me, yet also plays into the BPD/NPD "playbook" in "hooking me" into an argument.

If one of the early "lenses" I use is  the "good person/bad person" lens, it changes my thought process and usually leads to me not responding.

Anyway...I want to double down on the "think things through" before attempting this recommendation.  A close cousin to "thinking through" is a large sense of "inner peace".  That he can say you are a (hillbilly or fill in the blank) and you don't get an internal response.

That makes the times you do get an internal response really "stand out" at which time you can sort through what it's really all about.

Thanks FF,

I can manage my feelings. Sometimes it stings but I value his input less and less, so it doesn’t matter. I’ve seen him come unhinged so know his view is skewed. And it isn’t always directed at me, but most of the time.

He is definitely a narcissist.  I probably need to go back to my psych textbook to confirm my understanding because I’ve missed much of  the internal struggle that accompanies NPD.

All the while he said this, he had his lunch on the front of his shirt, all over his arms and on his face. I may be autistic, but you’re a slob. And it’s even more special because he gets “grossed out” if anyone has a smudge on their face while eating. I know where this stems from, but he was covered in the sauce as he’s saying this — so, yes, this helped diminish the “blow”.

I guess I’m being foolish. The kids see it for what it is, nonsense dad is lashing out. It’s frustrating to not get a normal response.

The joke went that one guy in a group of four was asked to perform and instead of getting three thousand that the group normally gets, he was only going to get four hundred. He wanted three thousand and they told him you’re only one of four so you get four hundred. Ha. 

He was like get it?  And I was like, yes, he didn’t even get his equal share, meaning they didn’t value him as much as the other members.

H was like no, just that they were only giving him a fourth. But his math was wrong.  So, yep, that’s where he didn’t feel better and then insulted.

It was a stupid joke he told and instead of laughing at himself that he flubbed it (funnier that way anyway) he tried to insult me.

I wasn’t trying to call him out and didn’t even know that he’d done it wrong at that point.

Mine fields everywhere. 

[formflier]

I realize the amount to overcome without his effort is pretty insurmountable, so just getting through is the approach for now.  

 

I don't think this is at all true.

I would want to know more about what you mean by this.

There is a "truth" or "axiom" that us nons can use in our favor.  BPDish people actually want us around so we can use the "fear of abandonment" to our favor.

This can be done without their active participation.

By and large this is the approach I've taken with my wife, she thinks therapy is "sinful" or has other derogatory descriptions for it.

Basically...you have way more "power" than I think you give yourself credit for.


Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

I don't think this is at all true.

I would want to know more about what you mean by this.

There is a "truth" or "axiom" that us nons can use in our favor.  BPDish people actually want us around so we can use the "fear of abandonment" to our favor.

This can be done without their active participation.

By and large this is the approach I've taken with my wife, she thinks therapy is "sinful" or has other derogatory descriptions for it.

Basically...you have way more "power" than I think you give yourself credit for.

Hi FF,

I understand that I can control my behavior, my thinking, my reaction, my action.  But, he is in an almost constant state of proving he’s right/justified/better coupled with triggers that set him off on a rage. Yes, they are intermingled but it feels at every turn, he’s dysregulating in some direction.

So, I feel with this ever present for him, it’s near impossible for me to physically keep up. I’ll just be in exhaustion.

And, he can just twist intent and meaning behind the most innocent exchanges. For instance, we were discussing the holidays and about a favorite restaurant we’ve spent the Fourth of July. It’s nice, but is ethno-centric — amazing food and not too far from American fare. I said how much I enjoy it and it’s nice not having to do the cooking and cleaning up, but that I wished they had one or two American dishes for their 4th of July party — throw in some apple pie or corn on the cob.  They have dishes that are close, but not quite. H took issue with this comment and said it was a Bavarian restaurant and so they wouldn’t have those. I said I understood, but that I was just expressing when they throw a big 4th party, I’d love if they’d have a few traditional 4th things. My opinion. He won’t let it go and then tells me again that they are Bavarian. But, I say, they are celebrating an American holiday (like the 4th is not a holiday for Bavaria as far as I know) so it seems they could toss an apple pie in the mix.

How this conversation could turn into a debate is beyond me. I can’t express my opinion?  I love the place but miss some traditional fare, too. 

Anyway, he comes back in the room some 10 minutes later and says I started it and then has 10 more reasons why they shouldn’t have any American fare for the 4th. This is pie.  Pie.

This is exhausting. I don’t agree with a lot of what he says but I respect that he is entitled to his opinion. My opinion is not respected, it is just wrong.

So, if I go with the premise that he doesn’t want to be abandoned, despite threatening to leave/divorce me, how to I flip it so he tries to get me to keep him around (such that I even want him around) without setting him off more.

Great if it could work, but I’m not convinced.

And, I haven’t mastered not trying to avoid setting him off. I can do well with little things and day to day, but the things I know are big, I’m still afraid of his explosion. I’m trying and hope I can get there, but I have not yet.

And, truthfully everything seems so cloudy now. The days blend, there’s stress with kids and school and absolutely not much normal. I don’t feel anything is clear and it makes me uncomfortable to make changes or big decisions even though I so want peace.

And, then I see some sappy story, true or made up, about a H loving his wife and supporting her and respecting her and allowing her to have her own opinion and cry because I have none of those. And if I use his fear of abandonment to my advantage, do I get any of those things?

If not, then it feels like a lot of effort just to not be yelled at. 

I’m open for the promise that there’s a chance for better...

Thanks, FF, your help is so appreciated.

[formflier]

I "pushed back" when I "see" you telling yourself things that aren't true.  Because if "it's never going to work"...then "there's no reason to try".  

You have a lot of power over him, but you don't yet understand that.  I don't expect you to fully understand that in this one post.  What I do hope is that when you "feel" or "think" that you have no power that you challenge yourself to look at things with new perspective...with curiosity instead of defeatism.

Brief analogy.  You and he are dance partners.   He does the dysfunctional dance and you do (or did) that as well because you didn't realize you had the choice.  He wants to dance with you.  You STOP the dysfunctional dance and START the healthy dance.  This is odd for him and he tries to get you to dance the old dance.  As long as you don't dance the old one, it will force him to learn a new dance.

Granted...he can leave and keep doing the old one, but then he doesn't get to dance with you.

Do you see the pickle he is in?  

This tool is not "precise" and it's not "instant" because he has been trained to understand how you dance...for how long?  It won't take that long to untrain him...especially if you are consistent.

Keep going over this theory in your head.  I know it's very general.

You asked a very specific question...so I won't skip over it.

 H took issue with this comment and said it was a Bavarian restaurant and so they wouldn’t have those. I said I understood, but that I was just expressing when they throw a big 4th party, I’d love if they’d have a few traditional 4th things. My opinion. He won’t let it go and then tells me again that they are Bavarian. But, I say, they are celebrating an American holiday (like the 4th is not a holiday for Bavaria as far as I know) so it seems they could toss an apple pie in the mix.

How this conversation could turn into a debate is beyond me. I can’t express my opinion?  I love the place but miss some traditional fare, too.  

Anyway, he comes back in the room some 10 minutes later and says I started it and then has 10 more reasons why they shouldn’t have any American fare for the 4th. This is pie.  Pie.

It's not about pie.  It appears to me that both parties in this debate substituted pie for an argument about something else.

It appears to me the debate became over who's opinion was right or perhaps who was "better" or "the better person."

Seriously...how could you have ended the debate and also said something neutral or perhaps even kind.

So..insert yourself at  he says "they won't have it" the you say "(fill in the blank)"

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

he is in an almost constant state of proving he’s right/justified/better coupled with triggers that set him off on a rage. Yes, they are intermingled but it feels at every turn, he’s dysregulating in some direction.

So, I feel with this ever present for him, it’s near impossible for me to physically keep up. I’ll just be in exhaustion.

Good Morning UBPDHelp,

I vividly remember the last few days my Ex and I lived together before the final dysregulation.     I was beyond exhausted.   The amount of tension and stress in the environment around me was draining.   the amount of negativity took a toll on me.   for me,  it was damaging.   I was continually braced for the next explosion and didn't even realize it.     It was about 6 months after we had split and the households had settled, that I was sitting in my chair in the living room and realized I wasn't afraid the front door would burst open with a shouting crazy person.    Took me 6 months to relax, after I was 'safe'.

Yes.     This is exhausting.     This is stressful.      And this is damaging.

A healthy relationship is one that nurtures and reflects both partners.  It fulfills the needs of both people - and  it attends to the goals and interests and desires of both people.   It is not always on high alert.   Decisions in healthy relationships are made calmly after a discussion of both peoples needs and wants and people follow through with what they say they are going to do.    A healthy relationship gives you energy, helps you feel relaxed, and makes you feel wanted and comfortable  just the way you are.

That's Dr. Margalis Fjelstad's book again.

FF is absolutely correct.   There is a lot here to process.   There is a lot here to understand.    It took me a long time to understand what posters on this board meant when they said something.   I understood the words I read sure.    But it took me a long time to be able to apply them to my life.   Sometimes it was much much later.    Something would happen and I would have a light bulb go on and say OOooh that's what they meant... this is what this is about.

One size does not fit all.   while there is a lot of overlap in our situations it is also important to remember that no two pwBPD/pwNPD act completely alike.     It is the unique events of each persons life that make up the content of the fears and distorted thinking.

My experience was my Ex did not want to end the relationship.    She wanted me to be the bad guy and end the relationship.   She didn't want the blame/shame or responsibility of ending things.    So she would do things that were so egregious that she basically forced me away.    It fit into the story that played in her head.    She could say "oh babyducks moved into the condo in the city again because she (everyone) always abandons me."

No one here should or will tell you to leave or to stay.    that is a very personal decision with a lot of moving parts.    its your decision.    hopefully we can assist in providing clarity.    hopefully we can assist in lessening the emotional turmoil.   hopefully we can assist in honestly assessing what the relationship can be like in terms of consistent respect, honesty and support.

my two cents
'ducks

[formflier]

How are you doing on building up your energy...caring for exhaustion?

Can you take some time and consider what the last few days look like for your self care?  Then take a hard look at a few weeks ago.

What differences jump out at you?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

And, he can just twist intent and meaning behind the most innocent exchanges. For instance, we were discussing the holidays and about a favorite restaurant we’ve spent the Fourth of July. It’s nice, but is ethno-centric — amazing food and not too far from American fare. I said how much I enjoy it and it’s nice not having to do the cooking and cleaning up, but that I wished they had one or two American dishes for their 4th of July party — throw in some apple pie or corn on the cob.  They have dishes that are close, but not quite. H took issue with this comment and said it was a Bavarian restaurant and so they wouldn’t have those. I said I understood, but that I was just expressing when they throw a big 4th party, I’d love if they’d have a few traditional 4th things. My opinion. He won’t let it go and then tells me again that they are Bavarian. But, I say, they are celebrating an American holiday (like the 4th is not a holiday for Bavaria as far as I know) so it seems they could toss an apple pie in the mix.

How this conversation could turn into a debate is beyond me. I can’t express my opinion?  I love the place but miss some traditional fare, too.  

You did express your opinion. And you reiterated it two more times. What you didn’t get was acknowledgement or approval for having an opinion, and it’s unlikely that he is willing or capable of providing that.

Yes, it’s exhausting, but you’re trying to get water from a dry well. How much simpler it would be to say nothing or just a simple uh huh, after he mentioned the restaurant was Bavarian and then walk away to do something else.

You’re so intent on being seen and approved of and that’s how he keeps the power dynamic skewed in his favor. If you can respond as if you don’t give a flying flip about his opinion of you, it’s likely that his behavior might change, though he may never be the person you’d like him to be. You’ve got twenty years of experience with him. He is who he is, but he might be able to be a bit more pleasant.

Imagine him as some annoying guy at a party who has cornered you and you’d like him to seek out someone else to bother. Practice that with little things where you can imagine things going awry.

When you’ve mastered this, then the big issues won’t be so daunting.

[formflier]

You’re so intent on being seen and approved of and that’s how he keeps the power dynamic skewed in his favor. 

Or...that's how UBPDHelp has given away her power.

I'm doubtful either one of you consciously "thought through" this process.  The important thing is now you are "starting" to see this.

Months from now you will be more aware and it will be more natural for you to "sidestep" these type of things.

You can do this!   

Best,

FF

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear UBPDHelp-

I’ve read through your threads with physical sensations of “I can almost feel her feelings right now...”, so painful my friend... and I don’t think I’ve replied.  I was nearing the end of my 6.5-year relationship with my uBPD/NPDbf.  I sort of knew it and sort of didn’t know that my rs was ending.  The ending and breaks were always my choice, although he was ALWAYS the one to leave in an unbridled RAGE.

This time (I pray) he will not be permitted to come back.  He has tried several times since we separated on 2/13/2020.

I hope my response to you doesn’t become too long, UBPDH.  And I sincerely hope I make sense to you.

I came to this forum in May 2017 when I searched the phrase “unprovoked rage in men”.  That phrase led me to this site and I studied and read like crazy.  I learned the tools and used them to improve communication with my BF, who I loved dearly.  We are both 62, pretty “young” for our ages.  We laughed a LOT.  But.  BUT...  There was a HUGE amount of dysfunction.  Mainly from his end, but some from my end and how I dealt with him.

I forgave him for unforgivable things.  His lies and misbehavior ran the gamut, but he never cheated on me (as far as I know).  But what do I really know about such a dishonest man?

Anyway... after reading tons and tons and tons of posts here and elsewhere.  And other articles from reputable sources about BPD, something was still “off”; fitting, but not quite fitting with some of his behavior and emptiness.  The disdain he held for people.  His complete lack of attachment to his own kids, grandkids.  Complete enmeshment with his mother.  Literally Loving her and hating her in the same paragraph.  Just weird stuff that was not entirely fitting with BPD behaviors...some but not all.  Rare tears at odd times.  I had watched my thoughts, ideas, words magically morph into HIS before my very eyes.  I kept my mouth shut.

I periodically thought “maybe some narc traits?”  I didn’t want to think that.  Not about him.  No, not about him, because my exH was such an awful NARC.  It couldn’t be happening again.  And it presented so differently.

During last few months of our RS he REALLY needed my professional expertise for some things.  It was real work, in my field and he appropriately offered to pay me.  In effect I bailed him out because he had NOT done what he should have done to prepare.  We discussed and it was a business deal; all was clear.  Boundaries were set and things went smoothly.  Except I forgot to tell him in advance NOT to use what I had done for him AGAINST me the next time he flew into a rage.  My mistake.  But ultimately HIS mistake.  HIS weakness, because I saw what he was.  IS.

My friend, I finally saw the weakness in this man, the holes in him.  His inability to function without my help.  He could NOT function in a way that exceeded “simple”.  He could NOT accept that I had helped him without negating what I had done.  And the thing was, *I* didn’t bring anything up.  He did.  It ate at him.  His weakness, not mine.

I don’t mean to make this about me, I’m sorry.  The last night he was here, he left in an absolute awful RAGE because I asked him three questions:  1.  Did you feed the dog?  2.  Did you give the dog her meds?  3.  Why is my dress in the dryer?

You see, I “caught” him in mistakes.  He’s so fragile, so WEAK, such a NARC, that he could NOT say “oops my love, I forgot to feed and give the dog her meds.”  Instead, he needed to ERUPT and call me every name in the book.

He packed his things and left.  There’s more but it doesn’t matter.  Although I will say that 2 weeks later I mistakenly discovered something he did to make me look “stupid”.  That was the nail in this rs coffin.  It’s almost comical to me now, but it cannot matter.

What DOES matter is that the night of his last RAGE I found Dr. Ramani on You Tube.  Search her name - Dr. Ramani,  narcissism.    I watched all night.  It explained everything.  Everything I had lived for 6.5 years.  And the 19 years with my exH.  I go back for refreshers.  I actually no longer need my therapist, who doesn’t really “get” the impact of narcissistic abuse anyway. 

My friend, for me... really absorbing that information took away ALL of the personal impact of his nastiness.  It really IS his problem.  All of the vile stuff he said that night and over the years doesn’t mean much to me.  He is just so so weak.  I’m actually sad to pretty much feel nothing but pity for him.  I don’t want to know him.

Once you come to understand your H’s weakness, his fragility as the driver behind his attacks, most of the power his nasty words have against you may likely evaporate.  In his mind, if he’s too quiet, if he’s NOT belittling YOU, you may *see* the real him, the pathetic and weak, small him.  And that is a very dangerous thing for a person with strong NPD traits.

So please.  In your quiet time, put in headphones and listen to Dr. Ramani speak about NPD.  You’ll begin to understand.

And what you’ll understand is that this is NOT about you at all.  It is ALL him.  And it always has been.  That my dearest, is how it actually becomes impersonal to you.  And I am a highly sensitive person.

Please let me know what you think about Dr. Ramani.  I sincerely hope this helps you.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF and all,

Thank you for all the feedback. I’m going to reply to each of you as you’ve all given me great advice, related experiences and steered me to new ways to see things.  That said, it’s getting late and I’m beat so may not get too far tonight.

Bless you all for your patience and continued guidance. You will never know how much it means to me, but just know you are making a tremendous difference in my life and I am ever so appreciative. xoxo

I "pushed back" when I "see" you telling yourself things that aren't true.  Because if "it's never going to work"...then "there's no reason to try".  

I know you’re going to push me, that’s okay.

It’s not that I think that the tools and tactics (act vs react, etc) don’t work. I believe very much that they do.  My waffling is simply due to the breadth of his dysregulations coupled with my diminished stamina.

You have a lot of power over him, but you don't yet understand that.  I don't expect you to fully understand that in this one post.  What I do hope is that when you "feel" or "think" that you have no power that you challenge yourself to look at things with new perspective...with curiosity instead of defeatism.

Brief analogy.  You and he are dance partners.   He does the dysfunctional dance and you do (or did) that as well because you didn't realize you had the choice.  He wants to dance with you.  You STOP the dysfunctional dance and START the healthy dance.  This is odd for him and he tries to get you to dance the old dance.  As long as you don't dance the old one, it will force him to learn a new dance.

Granted...he can leave and keep doing the old one, but then he doesn't get to dance with you.

Do you see the pickle he is in?  

This tool is not "precise" and it's not "instant" because he has been trained to understand how you dance...for how long?  It won't take that long to untrain him...especially if you are consistent.

Keep going over this theory in your head.  I know it's very general.

I do understand that I have power, but true I do not fully understand what exactly it is or how/when to implement.  I am fine to hold firm on my behavior and boundaries, but he’s tricky because sometimes I don’t see it coming and then it takes so much effort to wrangle it back in.

You asked a very specific question...so I won't skip over it.

It's not about pie.  It appears to me that both parties in this debate substituted pie for an argument about something else.

So, I know the issue is not pie. But, I firmly believe that voicing a minor consideration (do we want to celebrate every 4th where we can’t have apple pie?  Even that is too harsh...what I said was more simply an “I wish they would have apple pie, too.”) is not cause for a battle.

I understand that he has underlying resentment/angst/whatever against me so any slight suggestion that this brilliant idea isn’t perfect and he’s getting defensive by offensively attacking me. But, I can say with all sincerity that I really just wished they had apple pie.  Does that make sense. So, I’m not trying to push his buttons (and can’t understand how this would in a “normal” conversation) so it gets tiring fighting battles you didn’t see coming.

It appears to me the debate became over who's opinion was right or perhaps who was "better" or "the better person."

Seriously...how could you have ended the debate and also said something neutral or perhaps even kind.

So..insert yourself at  he says "they won't have it" the you say "(fill in the blank)"

There is always a debate with him. But I can say unequivocally that I have no debate in me. I am not looking to be better or solely right. I don’t need to prove I’m right. I’m wrong a whole bunch. I’m okay with that and try to do better. But I am tired of him trying to prove he’s right/better.  

So, if he says they won’t have it, I could say that’s true so let’s find a place we can grab dessert after. I don’t know. I wasn’t asking for a fix and didn’t even think there was a debate in it (meaning I thought stating a fact was neutral) and I didn’t insult him, I just said it was too bad they didn’t have pie.

Is this something that would get most people riled?  If so, maybe I’m off my rocker and I need more help than I thought?

I’ll think about it some more...thanks FF.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi BabyDucks,

Thank you for sharing. It’s hard to get to the book and a clear head with six people stuck home. He plays the tv so loud all day, interrupts anything productive with noise and trying to get us to watch some movie again.

The clear head is hard enough, but during pandemic is near impossible.  I hope it’s closer to normal soon.

Good Morning UBPDHelp,

I vividly remember the last few days my Ex and I lived together before the final dysregulation.     I was beyond exhausted.   The amount of tension and stress in the environment around me was draining.   the amount of negativity took a toll on me.   for me,  it was damaging.   I was continually braced for the next explosion and didn't even realize it.     It was about 6 months after we had split and the households had settled, that I was sitting in my chair in the living room and realized I wasn't afraid the front door would burst open with a shouting crazy person.    Took me 6 months to relax, after I was 'safe'.

Yes, to all of this. I wait for him to go in the morning and take a deep breath when he comes home. What person will I find?

Yes.     This is exhausting.     This is stressful.      And this is damaging.

A healthy relationship is one that nurtures and reflects both partners.  It fulfills the needs of both people - and  it attends to the goals and interests and desires of both people.   It is not always on high alert.   Decisions in healthy relationships are made calmly after a discussion of both peoples needs and wants and people follow through with what they say they are going to do.    A healthy relationship gives you energy, helps you feel relaxed, and makes you feel wanted and comfortable  just the way you are.

That's Dr. Margalis Fjelstad's book again.

None of that exists anymore. H needed money for his business, a smallish amount, until their financing comes in.  He finally agreed to it and it is supposed to fund this week and the money comes back. He doesn’t have it, of course, so I gave it to him with specific terms (it’s back this week).  But he couldn’t get it in the work account the way he wanted which lead to him ranting this morning. Somehow this was my fault. I let him sort it out and he ended where I told him, but not until after he spent an hour being a lunatic about it. I wasn’t a party and just told him to let me know what he decided. After that he was fairly okay.

But none of it was/is normal.

My experience was my Ex did not want to end the relationship.    She wanted me to be the bad guy and end the relationship.   She didn't want the blame/shame or responsibility of ending things.    So she would do things that were so egregious that she basically forced me away.    It fit into the story that played in her head.    She could say "oh babyducks moved into the condo in the city again because she (everyone) always abandons me."

This is my suspicion, too. I’m still working behind the scenes to plan. I feel doubly trapped — no real way to support myself and obviously prospects are pretty slim right now and no where to go anyway. But I’m working on plans and getting things in order.

I had a call set up this morning but had to cancel because the banking issue came up last night and I knew H would be up early pestering me to get the bank done. So, rescheduling, but again no where to go right now so have some time.

No one here should or will tell you to leave or to stay.    that is a very personal decision with a lot of moving parts.    its your decision.    hopefully we can assist in providing clarity.    hopefully we can assist in lessening the emotional turmoil.   hopefully we can assist in honestly assessing what the relationship can be like in terms of consistent respect, honesty and support.

I know but sometimes I wish someone would. I feel like I get observations from both sides so have the opportunity to weigh the merits of each side and see where I stand. I need to get the blaring tv out of my head.

And, tearing the family apart is not without concern for my kids, and then I think this dynamic may be worse.

And, I get afraid that what if I am slowly losing my mind, who will be able to take care of my kids if I can’t and he’s the only option. Out of control thinking and I bring myself back to my plans and get control. 

Thanks BabyDucks, always such kind and honest guidance.

[formflier]

There is always a debate with him. But I can say unequivocally that I have no debate in me. 

Hmm...did you not debate the Bavarian thing?  Perhaps I misinterpreted...

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hmm...did you not debate the Bavarian thing?  Perhaps I misinterpreted...

Hi FF,

We can “debate” the word debate.  

He is ready to walk away from everything b/c of pandemic. This particular restaurant is at a vacation spot and he now wants to move there and have every 4th at this restaurant. I understand this is wishful thinking and not a real solution to anything.

So he says we should celebrate there every year.

I say, that sounds great.  I do wish they would add apple pie to the holiday menu because I would miss it on the 4th.

He says they’ll never do it because they are Bavarian.

I say I understand but was just wishing for it.

And then a long “lesson” about Bavarian food, etc.

To me this topic, with some opposing views but mostly agreement, is a conversation.  To him, it is a confrontation.

If my friend says she found a great new salon and asks me if I’ve been. I have and had a terrible experience, what do I do?  I tell her I’m happy she found a place she likes.  Probably tell her that I’ve been (because she asked), but unfortunately my experience wasn’t as positive. Maybe it was an anomaly and to please let me know how it goes and I might try them again.

Could be she has different hair, different needs or different expectations.  Maybe she likes crass jokes or likes to chat the whole time but I prefer peace and quiet and relaxation. Both are okay. Different wants, but still okay.

We’ve had a conversation that included some negative and yet it wraps and we move along. I’ve had this conversation and this is exactly what happened. I’ve had similar told to me and I haven’t started a debate. I’ve accepted another’s opinion as that — their opinion. No need to persuade.  Big people can make their own decisions and have their very own opinions. I’m okay.

So, yes, I understand I’m dealing with different personalities but when something as innocent as pie becomes a debate, it is exhausting.

And, walking away is great and something I’ve done for years (and which he spins as a negative!), but I can’t walk out of every meal as much as I’d like to. It’s unreasonable. The alternative is to agree with everything he says and then what kind of monster am I creating? Or not add to the conversation. The options aren’t great when it is all the time.

But, with all of that said, I am not responding to any ridiculous insults and not engaging in topics that I KNOW will be a debate. I am holding boundaries and I do see some improvement but he’s still just in a constant ready to debate mode.

Oh, and when I said I have no debate in me I meant that I’m not out looking for a debate. I don’t see how wishing for pie is a debate and would rather just talk about things. The fact that it results in a debate is on him and his perceived threat (about pie).  To me it’s just a conversation.

And who in their right mind wouldn’t pick pie anyway?

[UBPDHelp]

You did express your opinion. And you reiterated it two more times. What you didn’t get was acknowledgement or approval for having an opinion, and it’s unlikely that he is willing or capable of providing that.

Yes, it’s exhausting, but you’re trying to get water from a dry well. How much simpler it would be to say nothing or just a simple uh huh, after he mentioned the restaurant was Bavarian and then walk away to do something else.

Yep.  By design many of these episodes are in the middle of a meal so walking away isn’t always a great option. If it’s at the end or just chatting after, I’ll walk away. If I leave before the middle, then it feels like he’s “won”. I don’t care about winning myself, but I fear him believing he won grows the monster — maybe I’ve been wrong about this? And leaving the kids in that awkwardness while he continues to disparage me isn’t great either.

You’re so intent on being seen and approved of and that’s how he keeps the power dynamic skewed in his favor. If you can respond as if you don’t give a flying flip about his opinion of you, it’s likely that his behavior might change, though he may never be the person you’d like him to be. You’ve got twenty years of experience with him. He is who he is, but he might be able to be a bit more pleasant.

This is interesting. I don’t even think I started there. Of course, in any r/s you want to be seen and heard. I just didn’t have some egomaniacal need. And I don’t even think I do now, but I do feel that my intentions/thoughts/feelings have been twisted, stomped on and discounted.  

I don’t need accolades, but I definitely have beliefs of what things need joint approval (which has become near impossible).  So believing that we should be on the same page with things like my job b/c it impacts the family has probably given too much power.

I think there’s truth here, I just need to think about how it applies specifically and where I can regain some control.  

Imagine him as some annoying guy at a party who has cornered you and you’d like him to seek out someone else to bother. Practice that with little things where you can imagine things going awry.

Not hard to imagine, haha. Yes, this is a good analogy and definitely can practice with little things.

When you’ve mastered this, then the big issues won’t be so daunting.

That would be amazing. Deep breath.

Thank you Cat.

[UBPDHelp]

Dear UBPDHelp-

I’ve read through your threads with physical sensations of “I can almost feel her feelings right now...”, so painful my friend... and I don’t think I’ve replied.  I was nearing the end of my 6.5-year relationship with my uBPD/NPDbf.  I sort of knew it and sort of didn’t know that my rs was ending.  The ending and breaks were always my choice, although he was ALWAYS the one to leave in an unbridled RAGE.

Hi Gem, thank you for weighing in and sharing. I don’t think others can understand unless they’ve been through it. I just don’t know why I felt for so long that it was manageable. I just think the normal line was slowly shifting that the new normal wasn’t seen as so far from the true normal.

Part of my hesitation in reaching out to say my sister is that one, she wouldn’t understand and two, I’ve put such a normal face on us that no one has any idea.

This time (I pray) he will not be permitted to come back.  He has tried several times since we separated on 2/13/2020.

I hope my response to you doesn’t become too long, UBPDH.  And I sincerely hope I make sense to you.

I came to this forum in May 2017 when I searched the phrase “unprovoked rage in men”.  That phrase led me to this site and I studied and read like crazy.  I learned the tools and used them to improve communication with my BF, who I loved dearly.  We are both 62, pretty “young” for our ages.  We laughed a LOT.  But.  BUT...  There was a HUGE amount of dysfunction.  Mainly from his end, but some from my end and how I dealt with him.

I forgave him for unforgivable things.  His lies and misbehavior ran the gamut, but he never cheated on me (as far as I know).  But what do I really know about such a dishonest man?

Anyway... after reading tons and tons and tons of posts here and elsewhere.  And other articles from reputable sources about BPD, something was still “off”; fitting, but not quite fitting with some of his behavior and emptiness.  The disdain he held for people.  His complete lack of attachment to his own kids, grandkids.  Complete enmeshment with his mother.  Literally Loving her and hating her in the same paragraph.  Just weird stuff that was not entirely fitting with BPD behaviors...some but not all.  Rare tears at odd times.  I had watched my thoughts, ideas, words magically morph into HIS before my very eyes.  I kept my mouth shut.

I periodically thought “maybe some narc traits?”  I didn’t want to think that.  Not about him.  No, not about him, because my exH was such an awful NARC.  It couldn’t be happening again.  And it presented so differently.

During last few months of our RS he REALLY needed my professional expertise for some things.  It was real work, in my field and he appropriately offered to pay me.  In effect I bailed him out because he had NOT done what he should have done to prepare.  We discussed and it was a business deal; all was clear.  Boundaries were set and things went smoothly.  Except I forgot to tell him in advance NOT to use what I had done for him AGAINST me the next time he flew into a rage.  My mistake.  But ultimately HIS mistake.  HIS weakness, because I saw what he was.  IS.

My friend, I finally saw the weakness in this man, the holes in him.  His inability to function without my help.  He could NOT function in a way that exceeded “simple”.  He could NOT accept that I had helped him without negating what I had done.  And the thing was, *I* didn’t bring anything up.  He did.  It ate at him.  His weakness, not mine.

I completely understand this. When this pandemic hit, my H just collapsed. Could not function. Lost his sh!t a few times. I even mentioned his nervous tics — knees bouncing out of control that I said he might take flight. It was intense. He still does this some but has calmed down a bit. But, watching his absolute inability to do anything but sit on the couch and watch tv all day/night while I took care of bills, food, kids, laundry, securing supplies, etc., made me see the total weakness in him. Sad and disappointing.

I don’t mean to make this about me, I’m sorry.  The last night he was here, he left in an absolute awful RAGE because I asked him three questions:  1.  Did you feed the dog?  2.  Did you give the dog her meds?  3.  Why is my dress in the dryer?

You see, I “caught” him in mistakes.  He’s so fragile, so WEAK, such a NARC, that he could NOT say “oops my love, I forgot to feed and give the dog her meds.”  Instead, he needed to ERUPT and call me every name in the book.

He packed his things and left.  There’s more but it doesn’t matter.  Although I will say that 2 weeks later I mistakenly discovered something he did to make me look “stupid”.  That was the nail in this rs coffin.  It’s almost comical to me now, but it cannot matter.

No need to apologize. Hearing your story helps to not feel alone in all of this and helps me learn and understand.

I am sorry you have been through this. I can see how you understand the absolute little things of no real consequence that can turn them around. And, how does asking if the dog got walked make him look stupid?  Not normal reaction and yet I’ve witnessed the exact same response to normal discussions so I get it and know that was hard to deal with.

What DOES matter is that the night of his last RAGE I found Dr. Ramani on You Tube.  Search her name - Dr. Ramani,  narcissism.    I watched all night.  It explained everything.  Everything I had lived for 6.5 years.  And the 19 years with my exH.  I go back for refreshers.  I actually no longer need my therapist, who doesn’t really “get” the impact of narcissistic abuse anyway. 

My friend, for me... really absorbing that information took away ALL of the personal impact of his nastiness.  It really IS his problem.  All of the vile stuff he said that night and over the years doesn’t mean much to me.  He is just so so weak.  I’m actually sad to pretty much feel nothing but pity for him.  I don’t want to know him.

Once you come to understand your H’s weakness, his fragility as the driver behind his attacks, most of the power his nasty words have against you may likely evaporate.  In his mind, if he’s too quiet, if he’s NOT belittling YOU, you may *see* the real him, the pathetic and weak, small him.  And that is a very dangerous thing for a person with strong NPD traits.

So please.  In your quiet time, put in headphones and listen to Dr. Ramani speak about NPD.  You’ll begin to understand.

And what you’ll understand is that this is NOT about you at all.  It is ALL him.  And it always has been.  That my dearest, is how it actually becomes impersonal to you.  And I am a highly sensitive person.

Please let me know what you think about Dr. Ramani.  I sincerely hope this helps you.

Thank you. I will definitely check Dr. Ramani out and let you know.

Thank you for sharing your experience and letting me know that I’m not alone in these types of episodes. There are days when I wonder if I’m in denial and I’m the one with the problem. I know I have my own challenges but I am not wholly dysfunctional.

  to you!

[babyducks]

But none of it was/is normal.

Hi UBH.     Glad to hear from you.

I just don’t know why I felt for so long that it was manageable. I just think the normal line was slowly shifting that the new normal wasn’t seen as so far from the true normal.

As I read this morning I was thinking about normal and not normal.   what is normal?   what is neuro atypical?

. And, how does asking if the dog got walked make him look stupid?  Not normal reaction and yet I’ve witnessed the exact same response to normal discussions so I get it and know that was hard to deal with.

Most of us show up here with assumptions about what is normal.   most of us assume that how we react and respond is normal and that everyone else works the same way we do (internally).   Unfortunately this is not a helpful assumption.

Everyone is somewhere on the spectrum of human reactions and responses.   Us too.    The "who in their right mind would pick pie?"  might have been rhetorical.   but in case it wasn't.     He didn't pick pie.   He wasn't debating.    It wasn't a simple 'normal' conversation like about the hair salon.    It's not a free and easy exchange of ideas.   Expecting it to be, sets yourself up for failure.

From what your write, he has been in a period of mental decline for a while.   the stress of the pandemic and the shelter at home has pushed him into a worse place.     what he says and does reflects the chaos that is inside his head  about himself and his future.     not you.    this isn't about you at all.

serious question.     do you have any idea why you continue to expect him to react 'normally'?   

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Hi UBH.     Glad to hear from you.

As I read this morning I was thinking about normal and not normal.   what is normal?   what is neuro atypical?

I mean no offense if I’m using the incorrect terms. I don’t think of “normal” as a single, solitary response/behavior. But, I also don’t want to jump out of my skin after expressing my non-inflammatory opinion. I accept others preferences, opinions, ideas will often differ from my own, but I’m good with that. I believe in free will as long as you are not hurting anyone.

Most of us show up here with assumptions about what is normal.   most of us assume that how we react and respond is normal and that everyone else works the same way we do (internally).   Unfortunately this is not a helpful assumption.

Agree, but I have told my kids/family many times that I know that I have quirks that are annoying or things I do that are “weird” to others but just b/c that’s how I like it. I’m not hurting anyone and I’m no more annoying than the next guy. I accept them all for their idiosyncrasies.  It’s the relentless raging and insulting that is intolerable.

So, I can accept that there is no one normal, and even accept that he can’t live within that normal range most of the time. I know plenty of people who live outside what I would consider “typical”, “normal” behavior.  I don’t always understand it, but I respect that they’re doing what they want and they’re not hurting anyone, so not my concern. But my H is hurting people, mostly me. I can change my expectation that he can’t behave normally, but I can’t accept this. I hope that makes sense.

Everyone is somewhere on the spectrum of human reactions and responses.   Us too.    The "who in their right mind would pick pie?"  might have been rhetorical.   but in case it wasn't.     He didn't pick pie.   He wasn't debating.    It wasn't a simple 'normal' conversation like about the hair salon.    It's not a free and easy exchange of ideas.   Expecting it to be, sets yourself up for failure.

True (I was joking about pie).  I know he didn’t pick it and can even understand that he wouldn’t chose it, but it wasn’t a big deal and he couldn’t accept it for what it was — just my opinion. Didn’t have to be right or wrong, but my opinion is mine to have. It wasn’t a confrontation of some moral dilemma about party food and whether he was worthy to breathe air. It’s just frustrating to have a debate about even the most simple things.

And, I guess if I change my expectations any further then I can have no expectation for him. Where does that leave me?  Back to seeing this as insurmountable.

From what your write, he has been in a period of mental decline for a while.   the stress of the pandemic and the shelter at home has pushed him into a worse place.     what he says and does reflects the chaos that is inside his head  about himself and his future.     not you.    this isn't about you at all.

serious question.     do you have any idea why you continue to expect him to react 'normally'?  

I haven’t thought of it this way. Gosh darn it, I expect him to be normal.  He appears normal most of the time.

He’s been better and I have seen some of my not reacting making a difference. I have enjoyed not caring about the little stuff. He does try to find things to prod and I mostly just ignore. I slip up some but I feel better not reacting so much.

But, to answer why I expect it, I would say it’s because I have seen him function normally for long periods of time in a lot of circumstances.  I know at some level he can function there.  

And, if I can’t expect him to, then I do not know if there’s any reason to continue. The breadth of this dysfunction means it has touched virtually every corner of my life. I just want peace. And I believe it’s the chance of purposefully never getting that that is my sticking point. How can I look at 55, 60, 65, 70 and be someone’s grandma and be a hillbilly slut?  Not appealing.

Thanks BabyDucks...I have a lot of reading to catch up on and a lot of thinking to do.

[UBPDHelp]

  a little regrouping update.

I’ve been rereading everyone’s feedback and my own replies. Let me start by saying that I’m sorry if my responses have sounded/felt like I was being argumentative.  It wasn’t intended, albeit still the result, it’s pure frustration and exhaustion from everything.

I’m a bit more rested. Made some tough (unrelated) decisions so cleared some off my plate. Taking a lot of deep breaths.

I remain very torn.

My head tells me no way. Can’t make this better, partially because I don’t know if I have the stamina.

My heart holds on to the wish for an intact family and remembers a lot of good times. A lot.

But in hindsight, I can see how many were slightly tainted by BPD/NPD even if they were not wholly destroyed. And I wonder if H is so far down now in whatever disorder that his handle on reality is just gone.

For instance, I was reviewing a delivery that they didn’t deliver a large portion of the order. I was called autistic for checking. I ignored that comment and simply asserted that I wanted to make sure we weren’t charged for things we didn’t get. He said he didn’t care AND that he pays for everything so I needed to stop. As we all know, it’s been almost 2 months that he hasn’t had income and the only money there is right now is mine. Yes, I could correct this.  But don’t need another battle.

So here are some considerations I could use help/thoughts/feedback on from anyone willing to chime in.

1. I wonder if I can find a repeatable approach to these minor episodes of name calling, especially in “trapped” situations — mid-dinner, in the car — when I can’t easily remove myself.  I know I’ve been given great advice and walking away works.  Anything allowing me to preserve any dignity, not enflame when walking away is not an option? Or is the only choice to suck it up?

Agree to disagree?  We may not see eye to eye, but the important thing is it’s now resolved?  Spit balling, but think for my small brain, having a universal(ish) response is needed. At least until I get a better handle on all of this.

2. Likewise I could use help with some specific, repeated behaviors.

     i. H controls remote. FF and I discussed how much he controls...taking this back started the last really bad episode (after I said I wouldn’t enforce right now, my mistake). I am not battling this right now. Generally when he comes in to the family room he takes over. He’s a tv junkie and “needs” this right now (I do believe it is keeping him sane(ish). But I spend most of my free time there which now means I’m doing what he is.  We have similar taste but he’s on 4th or 5th repeat and that I can’t do.  Couldn’t even make 2nd on most in such short succession.  So I read or otherwise entertain myself, which turns in to him saying “watch this” and interrupting a whole lot. I can leave, but I haven’t because this is where I get confused if I then reinforce his ability to dictate where I am/what I’m doing.

     ii. Along these lines, he does this weird thing when asking me to watch something. We sit in separate chairs at an angle from each other. He’ll tell me to watch and then will dart his eyes back and forth to make sure I am. It just feels super controlling. I don’t need to watch a scene I’ve watched 10 times already in a movie I don’t care about. And, just checking to make sure I am is annoying. Am I being too sensitive here?  Should I say, I can only watch 2 scenes a day so is this the one you really want to show me?  Do I do the same to him?  Idk.

     iii. And here are some quirky things I can’t figure out how to stop and not start a rage. Back to the glasses I stick in my shirt. Sometimes I slide them down my nose (reading) so I don’t take them on and off a hundred times. This drives him crazy, even though it has no impact on him other than I look like an “old lady” (this is what he says).  I like old ladies and am okay being one. But, I just want to wear my glasses however I want and don’t get why there’s even a discussion. Thoughts? 

         Same with anything he doesn’t think I should be doing. The other night he was watching a movie for the 4th time. I came into the room and sat in my own spot, I had a pen in my hand.  H watches me walk in, staring at the pen in my hand. I ignore it and just sit for a minute. He keeps staring and then just can’t help it. “What are you doing with the pen?” What does anyone do with a pen?  Does this need clarification?  I simple reply that I’m making a quick list for tomorrow. Disdainful sneer and a snicker. I ignore.

I could give many more examples but they’re all similar weird control behaviors, so a universal response/behavior would be great.

3.  This is a biggish one. He takes credit for everything. To be clear, I don’t need to proclaim how wonderful I am that I had a brilliant idea, BUT I do have issue with him taking credit for my ideas. And recently I believe he is almost immediately switching what happened in his head. I can’t tell if he believes it or is simply gaslighting. I used to believe gaslighting, and maybe it was, but now he seems to genuinely believe.

Example — we have propane. I pay all the bills and know how often we need it delivered. Right now the price is low so I said I was thinking I’d have them fill the tanks now to take advantage of the really good price. The next day I place the order and he says very clearly that it was his idea and he told me to. This did not happen. Has not been involved in any way for at least 15 years. I would have never said another word about it or requested accolades for a brilliant idea, but what the he! do I do with this?

This repeats with everything. I first noticed it about 15-16 years ago. But his rewriting happened about 3-4 years after the actual event so I thought my memory was hazy until I stumbled upon the paper that inspired me and then knew my recollection had been correct.

Does he know he’s doing this or does he really believe he did all of this?

Do I need to start logging all discussions?

Any suggestions?  It truly permeates everything.

And, the not responding and walking away has seen some improvements and I need to work on consistency. And, as Cat said, if I can overcome some of the small things, the big may be more manageable.

And it’s me learning as much as anyone.

So I suppose if I can try this and see if I can ellicit some Berger behavior I can maybe more easily see if there’s any point.

Thanks all if you’ve suffered to the end. Appreciate any help!

[babyducks]

He’s been better and I have seen some of my not reacting making a difference. I have enjoyed not caring about the little stuff. He does try to find things to prod and I mostly just ignore. I slip up some but I feel better not reacting so much.

But, to answer why I expect it, I would say it’s because I have seen him function normally for long periods of time in a lot of circumstances.  I know at some level he can function there.  

And, if I can’t expect him to, then I do not know if there’s any reason to continue. The breadth of this dysfunction means it has touched virtually every corner of my life. I just want peace.

Hi UBPDHelp,

You've made progress in a short amount of time.    In difficult circumstances.    There is a lot to this.     

Over in the lessons on the Bettering Board is this clip:

If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

It very much seems to me that now, in the middle of the stress of this pandemic, and the stress of the economic collapse things are particularly difficult in your relationship.   that's to be understood.     right now the dysfunction is 24/7.   that's not good for either one of you.   not good for the family.   not good for the children.   

I would suggest rather than try and figure out how much normalcy you can reasonably expect from him... to figure out how much outside the 'norm' you can comfortably and reasonably tolerate.    Where are your boundaries?    Is breaking things beyond what you will accept?   Verbal violence?   Name Calling and threats?   Where are your lines in the sand?   

At one point my Ex was having a Bipolar episode every two or three months...    I could accept that.   I could work within that.   I had the energy and the stamina to deal/cope with that.    Once the episodes started to occur once a week, I fell apart.    Couldn't cope.    I'm making it sound simple but it really wasn't.   Most of this is stuff I figured out in hindsight.    While in the middle of it I couldn't see the forest through the trees.     What I learned was that recovery from an episode became more and more difficult for me.   I couldn't go back to the way things were before.    I was a different person.    I had changed and learned and I couldn't pretend I didn't think and feel differently.   that was just me.   

'ducks

[babyducks]

   Generally when he comes in to the family room he takes over. He’s a tv junkie and “needs” this right now (I do believe it is keeping him sane(ish). But I spend most of my free time there which now means I’m doing what he is.  We have similar taste but he’s on 4th or 5th repeat and that I can’t do.  Couldn’t even make 2nd on most in such short succession.  So I read or otherwise entertain myself, which turns in to him saying “watch this” and interrupting a whole lot. I can leave, but I haven’t because this is where I get confused if I then reinforce his ability to dictate where I am/what I’m doing.

I'll take a shot at this one.     in my opinion the two of you being in such close proximity to each other is making things worse.      it's triggering fears of engulfment.    it's triggering frustration at the porous boundaries between you.    It's ratcheting up the emotional temperature.   the enmeshment is adding to the dysfunction.

I would say that you have to put more physical distance between you.    as much as you possible can during this shelter in place.     I would suggest you casually announce that you are going to take up yoga, or tai chi or whatever,  and move yourself out to the lawn or into another room for an amount of time every day.  find something you like... if you hate yoga ... go for a walk... if you don't want to walk ... start working on the gardening... something that replenishes you... something that you enjoy... something you want to do. 

   I can leave, but I haven’t because this is where I get confused if I then reinforce his ability to dictate where I am/what I’m doing.

why would you sit there and do something and watch something you don't like?    why are his feelings driving your actions?    why are his wants and needs paramount?    instead of making a decision because of what he might think or feel... how about making a decision on what is best for you?

[formflier]

I also want to acknowledge massive amounts of learning and positive change!  Nice work!

I'll certainly come back later and answer some specifics, yet for now I think it's better that you try to answer them yourself.

Use this point of view:  

You will have to be the "leader" to move the relationship to a better place.  No way around that.  It will feel unfair to you.

So...if you don't want to have exhausting arguments about what different restaurants should or shouldn't serve on various holidays...don't have them...not even "just a little bit".

Apply this to what is or isn't "his idea".  

Is there any reason not to apply it to any aspect of the relationship?

Real question...does he have the capability to be the "leader" in any area?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

You want some advice about responding to name calling when you can’t walk away. Here are some templates for replying. You can adjust them to your needs.

I’m really complimented that you’re paying so much attention to my appearance.

How astute of you to notice.

Interesting that you think that, yet you married me.

I’d never thought of that. I’ll have to consider it.

Really, you think so? That’s very observant.

How did you come up with that?

You’re such a tease!

How clever of you to say that!

Did you just now notice?

Wow, I never heard that before!

Seems you really got my number!

Have you been practicing that line?

It’s remarkable that never occurred to me!

I thank you for your insightful comment.

What a surprise!

Who knew?

Is that a line you used in your dating days?

[Butane]

a little regrouping update.
...
So here are some considerations I could use help/thoughts/feedback on from anyone willing to chime in.

Hi UBPDHelp, I've been following along and thought I'd chime in today. My situation shares some similarities to yours. I'm farther along the path of improving things. My H has dPTSD and uBPD  The "advice" I'm offering is also advice to myself!

1. I wonder if I can find a repeatable approach to these minor episodes of name calling, especially in “trapped” situations — mid-dinner, in the car — when I can’t easily remove myself.  

My H does not call me names, although I've heard him call others quite ugly names when he is dysregulated. The quote "Sticks and stones may break my bone but names will never hurt me" should really end "... but names will cut deep and hurt forever". While he does not call me names, he does say things like "What kind of person would do this?... Really? Really, Butane? ... You always, you never...". The effect is similar to name calling. I feel "less than", or "one down".

So, I'm guessing that being called hillbilly, slut, autistic etc. have hurt you very deeply (though you may not admit it readily). Might it be possible to say, in a MILD tone of voice "It hurts when you call me names". It would be expected, after years of name calling, that you might default to a defensive tone of voice. To my H, the tone I use matters A LOT. If there is a hint of irritation, annoyance, or defensiveness from me, this triggers him.

With my H, when I behave this way, he tends to behave better too. For a long while, I avoided car rides with him, because it made me a captive audience to long lectures on my failings, similar to what you experience.

This has gotten WAY better.  

  

For instance, I was reviewing a delivery that they didn’t deliver a large portion of the order. I was called autistic for checking. I ignored that comment and simply asserted that I wanted to make sure we weren’t charged for things we didn’t get. He said he didn’t care AND that he pays for everything so I needed to stop. As we all know, it’s been almost 2 months that he hasn’t had income and the only money there is right now is mine. Yes, I could correct this.  But don’t need another battle.

Your words were fine. How was your tone of voice and facial expression? I suspect you are not yet able to stay composed, non-reactive and gentle.

    i. H controls remote. FF and I discussed how much he controls...taking this back started the last really bad episode (after I said I wouldn’t enforce right now, my mistake). I am not battling this right now. Generally when he comes in to the family room he takes over. He’s a tv junkie and “needs” this right now (I do believe it is keeping him sane(ish). But I spend most of my free time there which now means I’m doing what he is.  We have similar taste but he’s on 4th or 5th repeat and that I can’t do.  Couldn’t even make 2nd on most in such short succession.  So I read or otherwise entertain myself, which turns in to him saying “watch this” and interrupting a whole lot. I can leave, but I haven’t because this is where I get confused if I then reinforce his ability to dictate where I am/what I’m doing.

What I would do: I would go over and say: "I know you like to watch your favorites over again, but it's not my preference. I'm happy to do another thing on my to-do list right now; you enjoy the show and I'll see you later. I'd like to watch XYZ later though. Maybe we could do that together?" Kiss, and leave.

My goals for the above: state that my wish is different from his and that's OK, express affection, and get my alone time.  


  

  ii. Along these lines, he does this weird thing when asking me to watch something. We sit in separate chairs at an angle from each other. He’ll tell me to watch and then will dart his eyes back and forth to make sure I am. It just feels super controlling. I don’t need to watch a scene I’ve watched 10 times already in a movie I don’t care about. And, just checking to make sure I am is annoying. Am I being too sensitive here?  Should I say, I can only watch 2 scenes a day so is this the one you really want to show me?  Do I do the same to him?  Idk.

My 9 year old does this. "watch this, watch this!", holds my hand, looks to see if I'm watching. What she wants is attention and validation. She hates when I am bored my her silly video and visibly want to return to my book/ironing/cleaning etc. I wonder if when your H does this childish thing, it may really be a cry of "Pay attention to me! Like what I like! Pay attention to me!".

I think your idea of saying "look bud, I said I'd watch 2, not 10..." is not a good one. Imagine your H is a kid wanting your attention and approval... what might be a response that leaves him with a feeling of good will towards you? I have a feeling that most of your interaction don't leave either of you feeling "good will".  
  

    iii. And here are some quirky things I can’t figure out how to stop and not start a rage. Back to the glasses I stick in my shirt. Sometimes I slide them down my nose (reading) so I don’t take them on and off a hundred times. This drives him crazy, even though it has no impact on him other than I look like an “old lady” (this is what he says).  I like old ladies and am okay being one. But, I just want to wear my glasses however I want and don’t get why there’s even a discussion. Thoughts?  

This seems like a small potatoes thing. I would respond with a smiling "I know, isn't it sad I already have old lady eyes? What will it be like when I'm actually old! Use the same friendly tone of voice you would use with a friend that is joking with you.

My goals would be: de-escalate by treating it like a mild tease, even if his tone in rude. The second sentence relays the message that you know you are not yet an old lady yet.
  

        Same with anything he doesn’t think I should be doing. The other night he was watching a movie for the 4th time. I came into the room and sat in my own spot, I had a pen in my hand.  H watches me walk in, staring at the pen in my hand. I ignore it and just sit for a minute. He keeps staring and then just can’t help it. “What are you doing with the pen?” What does anyone do with a pen?  Does this need clarification?  I simple reply that I’m making a quick list for tomorrow. Disdainful sneer and a snicker. I ignore.  

It seems you were already bristling for what he might say when you sat down. That, unfortunately, happens when one is highly reactive and hasn't had time to recover and rebuild their own emotional health. You... and so many others who seek help here!

What I would do:
Me: "I'm making a list for tomorrow"
Him: Snicker, sneer
Me: In a friendly tone "Hey, at my age a person needs memory aids! I'm working on the grocery list. If you'd like to add anything, let me know". Then leave the room and come back 10 minutes later with a drink for each of you, sit down and carry on with your pen.

The goals are: continue along the inside joke about your age, acknowledge that you are different from him and that's OK, leave the room to allow you both to re-regulate, and a gesture of goodwill by bringing him a drink. If he turns his nose up at the drink, don't worry.  

I'm not sure there is a "standard" approach, but in general the components are: be brief, be kind, state your boundary without using the word "boundary", and avoid voice raising, eye rolling, blaming, head shaking and sighing. Not saying that's what you do... but I sure did all those things in the past, which triggered my H more.  

3.  This is a biggish one. He takes credit for everything. To be clear, I don’t need to proclaim how wonderful I am that I had a brilliant idea, BUT I do have issue with him taking credit for my ideas. And recently I believe he is almost immediately switching what happened in his head. I can’t tell if he believes it or is simply gaslighting. I used to believe gaslighting, and maybe it was, but now he seems to genuinely believe.

Example — we have propane. I pay all the bills and know how often we need it delivered. Right now the price is low so I said I was thinking I’d have them fill the tanks now to take advantage of the really good price. The next day I place the order and he says very clearly that it was his idea and he told me to. This did not happen. Has not been involved in any way for at least 15 years. I would have never said another word about it or requested accolades for a brilliant idea, but what the he! do I do with this?

Does he know he’s doing this or does he really believe he did all of this?

When your H is dysregulated, he may well believe he does it all. His memory might well be different when he is feeling good and relaxed.

I think I might do something like this:
Him: "I'm glad I told you to order more propane, what I good idea that was!"
You: "Yes, I'm glad you agreed with me that now was the time to order! Well, see you later, I'm off to the shower."

[UBPDHelp]

Hi UBPDHelp,

You've made progress in a short amount of time.    In difficult circumstances.    There is a lot to this.     

Over in the lessons on the Bettering Board is this clip:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

It very much seems to me that now, in the middle of the stress of this pandemic, and the stress of the economic collapse things are particularly difficult in your relationship.   that's to be understood.     right now the dysfunction is 24/7.   that's not good for either one of you.   not good for the family.   not good for the children.   

I would suggest rather than try and figure out how much normalcy you can reasonably expect from him... to figure out how much outside the 'norm' you can comfortably and reasonably tolerate.    Where are your boundaries?    Is breaking things beyond what you will accept?   Verbal violence?   Name Calling and threats?   Where are your lines in the sand? 

Name calling is beyond, breaking things is beyond. Verbal violence is beyond. I haven’t known how to deal with name calling and have gotten angry in return or tried to get him to stop. As terrible as it is, it’s been less the more I haven’t engaged.   

At one point my Ex was having a Bipolar episode every two or three months...    I could accept that.   I could work within that.   I had the energy and the stamina to deal/cope with that.    Once the episodes started to occur once a week, I fell apart.    Couldn't cope.    I'm making it sound simple but it really wasn't.   Most of this is stuff I figured out in hindsight.    While in the middle of it I couldn't see the forest through the trees.     What I learned was that recovery from an episode became more and more difficult for me.   I couldn't go back to the way things were before.    I was a different person.    I had changed and learned and I couldn't pretend I didn't think and feel differently.   that was just me.   

Yes, I completely get this. I could deal with sporadic episodes but this has been relentless. I’m just not physically able to deal with it and all the other stress.

I have so many things running through my head I don’t feel capable of clear big decisions right now. I can’t go anywhere so I will keep at it to see if there’s any more change. Once things are more normal, we’ll see where I am.

Thanks BabyDucks!

[UBPDHelp]

I'll take a shot at this one.     in my opinion the two of you being in such close proximity to each other is making things worse.      it's triggering fears of engulfment.    it's triggering frustration at the porous boundaries between you.    It's ratcheting up the emotional temperature.   the enmeshment is adding to the dysfunction.

I agree. I suspect it’s subconsciously why I get up so early, just to get away from him. Porous boundaries is a very fitting description. Some I’m just bad at it (practicing, though) and some is his behavior is veiled so the boundary is hazy. Working on that too. And, trying to take more time away from him.

I would say that you have to put more physical distance between you.    as much as you possible can during this shelter in place.     I would suggest you casually announce that you are going to take up yoga, or tai chi or whatever,  and move yourself out to the lawn or into another room for an amount of time every day.  find something you like... if you hate yoga ... go for a walk... if you don't want to walk ... start working on the gardening... something that replenishes you... something that you enjoy... something you want to do.

All good ideas. I’ll try to add to this.  

why would you sit there and do something and watch something you don't like?    why are his feelings driving your actions?    why are his wants and needs paramount?    instead of making a decision because of what he might think or feel... how about making a decision on what is best for you?

Well, it’s a big room and I’m reading or working in a quiet craft. He feels compelled to get me to watch this or see this. There are not too many other free spaces except for the bedroom and I don’t want to be holed up. We could co-exist. That said, I could just leave when he changes the channel. I don’t know if he would get the message or just be happy I was gone. During normal times, I have the space to myself during the week and he does this on the weekends because it’s his time to veg out. That didn’t seem totally unreasonable since I had the flexibility to do so during the week. But for the last 6-7 weeks, he’s consumed all of the time. He’ll occasionally ask what I want to watch but 90% is him.

I guess I just need to find the less bad and see what happens.

[UBPDHelp]

I also want to acknowledge massive amounts of learning and positive change!  Nice work!

Thank you, FF. The wins feel good but he still comes back and takes a swipe. But, still getting a few wins and I’m happier if I’m doing my thing.

I'll certainly come back later and answer some specifics, yet for now I think it's better that you try to answer them yourself.

Use this point of view:  

You will have to be the "leader" to move the relationship to a better place.  No way around that.  It will feel unfair to you.

So...if you don't want to have exhausting arguments about what different restaurants should or shouldn't serve on various holidays...don't have them...not even "just a little bit".

Okay.  Will there come a time when I can have an opinion or will I likely have to do this forever?

Apply this to what is or isn't "his idea".  

Is there any reason not to apply it to any aspect of the relationship?

I suppose not, but from where I stand, he has so much going on dysfunctional that there will be virtually nothing to say. This is part jest and part fearful truth. But, I’m willing to turn the other cheek and walk away on everything. I’ll give it a try.

[quite]Real question...does he have the capability to be the "leader" in any area?[/quote]

Nope, definitely not. He’s loud and aggressive but it’s an illusion of (mean) strength. I don’t know where I’m going but I’m willing to try to lead this dance.

Thanks FF.

[UBPDHelp]

You want some advice about responding to name calling when you can’t walk away. Here are some templates for replying. You can adjust them to your needs.

I’m really complimented that you’re paying so much attention to my appearance.

How astute of you to notice.

Interesting that you think that, yet you married me.

I’d never thought of that. I’ll have to consider it.

Really, you think so? That’s very observant.

How did you come up with that?

You’re such a tease!

How clever of you to say that!

Did you just now notice?

Wow, I never heard that before!

Seems you really got my number!

Have you been practicing that line?

It’s remarkable that never occurred to me!

I thank you for your insightful comment.

What a surprise!

Who knew?

Is that a line you used in your dating days?

Thanks Cat...exactly what I needed. I definitely need something when it doesn’t make sense/can’t just walk away. Practice, practice, practice.

[formflier]

Okay.  Will there come a time when I can have an opinion or will I likely have to do this forever?
 

Let's be really "accurate" here in what we say.

You have opinions and can express them right now.  That's not the issue.

The issue is having your hubby validate or agree with..or acknowledge that you have an opinion or even a right to the opinion.

Does the new version seem to "fit" better or does it appear I've missed the mark some?

Let's keep at it until we get it right!

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi UBPDHelp, I've been following along and thought I'd chime in today. My situation shares some similarities to yours. I'm farther along the path of improving things. My H has dPTSD and uBPD  The "advice" I'm offering is also advice to myself!

My H does not call me names, although I've heard him call others quite ugly names when he is dysregulated. The quote "Sticks and stones may break my bone but names will never hurt me" should really end "... but names will cut deep and hurt forever". While he does not call me names, he does say things like "What kind of person would do this?... Really? Really, Butane? ... You always, you never...". The effect is similar to name calling. I feel "less than", or "one down".

So, I'm guessing that being called hillbilly, slut, autistic etc. have hurt you very deeply (though you may not admit it readily). Might it be possible to say, in a MILD tone of voice "It hurts when you call me names". It would be expected, after years of name calling, that you might default to a defensive tone of voice. To my H, the tone I use matters A LOT. If there is a hint of irritation, annoyance, or defensiveness from me, this triggers him.

Hi Butane...thanks for chiming in. I have on occasion told him these hurt my feelings. Thinking back, he’s done a whole lot of the hillbilly, autistic in front of an audience (never the slut, that’s a private insult) and he will just escalate if I say anything so I try to ignore. If I can leave, I simply walk away. He gets the message and he knows it’s wrong otherwise he would call me a slut in front of others, right? BUT, I do worry that but not stopping he feels he gets away with it.

With my H, when I behave this way, he tends to behave better too. For a long while, I avoided car rides with him, because it made me a captive audience to long lectures on my failings, similar to what you experience.

This has gotten WAY better.

I’m glad to hear it.  I am stuck right now so I will keep at these boundaries and see if I can’t get him to a better spot.  

  

Your words were fine. How was your tone of voice and facial expression? I suspect you are not yet able to stay composed, non-reactive and gentle.

I was fairly calm but slightly annoyed. I didn’t want to be doing this but it was several hundred dollars they didn’t bring, so I wanted to make sure we got charged properly. It seemed something that didn’t need an explanation why I was doing it. Add name calling and it gets a whole lot less fun.  

What I would do: I would go over and say: "I know you like to watch your favorites over again, but it's not my preference. I'm happy to do another thing on my to-do list right now; you enjoy the show and I'll see you later. I'd like to watch XYZ later though. Maybe we could do that together?" Kiss, and leave.

I have told him I can’t watch these over and over but I have NOT left, though. I try to read or work on crafts, but in the same room (it’s multipurpose, ugh). So, I guess I’ll just remove myself going forward.  

My goals for the above: state that my wish is different from his and that's OK, express affection, and get my alone time.

This is good.   

My 9 year old does this. "watch this, watch this!", holds my hand, looks to see if I'm watching. What she wants is attention and validation. She hates when I am bored my her silly video and visibly want to return to my book/ironing/cleaning etc. I wonder if when your H does this childish thing, it may really be a cry of "Pay attention to me! Like what I like! Pay attention to me!".

It does feel like this and also feel very childlike, too. I know that wasn’t your point, but I’ve often likened his behavior to a child stomping their feet when they don’t get their way.

But, it also feels controlling because it is soo much. Like I don’t mind here or there, but it’s no respect for my time or what I’m doing.

I think your idea of saying "look bud, I said I'd watch 2, not 10..." is not a good one. Imagine your H is a kid wanting your attention and approval... what might be a response that leaves him with a feeling of good will towards you? I have a feeling that most of your interaction don't leave either of you feeling "good will".

I give in to a lot of his preferences so I am probably tired of it along with everything else. Do you have a suggestion other than above?
    

This seems like a small potatoes thing. I would respond with a smiling "I know, isn't it sad I already have old lady eyes? What will it be like when I'm actually old! Use the same friendly tone of voice you would use with a friend that is joking with you.

My goals would be: de-escalate by treating it like a mild tease, even if his tone in rude. The second sentence relays the message that you know you are not yet an old lady yet.

I can try this.
  

It seems you were already bristling for what he might say when you sat down. That, unfortunately, happens when one is highly reactive and hasn't had time to recover and rebuild their own emotional health. You... and so many others who seek help here!

I believe this is true a lot but honestly, I was holding a pen. The stare at my hand with the pen and then sitting down still holding the pen and the long stare. No reaction and then he asks what I’m doing with it. It wasn’t like I was walking around with a machete or a snake. Those I could understand the look of disbelief and asking what I was doing. He wanted me to sit and watch whatever he was watching with no distraction and the pen represented a distraction.

What I would do:
Me: "I'm making a list for tomorrow"
Him: Snicker, sneer
Me: In a friendly tone "Hey, at my age a person needs memory aids! I'm working on the grocery list. If you'd like to add anything, let me know". Then leave the room and come back 10 minutes later with a drink for each of you, sit down and carry on with your pen.

The goals are: continue along the inside joke about your age, acknowledge that you are different from him and that's OK, leave the room to allow you both to re-regulate, and a gesture of goodwill by bringing him a drink. If he turns his nose up at the drink, don't worry.

Okay, I can try.  

I'm not sure there is a "standard" approach, but in general the components are: be brief, be kind, state your boundary without using the word "boundary", and avoid voice raising, eye rolling, blaming, head shaking and sighing. Not saying that's what you do... but I sure did all those things in the past, which triggered my H more.  
When your H is dysregulated, he may well believe he does it all. His memory might well be different when he is feeling good and relaxed.

I think I might do something like this:
Him: "I'm glad I told you to order more propane, what I good idea that was!"
You: "Yes, I'm glad you agreed with me that now was the time to order! Well, see you later, I'm off to the shower."

You are far more clever than I.  I’m transparent and not quick on my feet. But, thank you as this is also helpful.

Appreciate you sharing and helping. I’m glad to hear that things are going better for you and your H. Take care!