I really don’t know what to do with this

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So yesterday, H took SS to the park to ride his bike, play tennis and run around. They got home around 7:45-8 and didn’t come in until 9. I could tell they were talking so I didn’t interrupt. There have been complications with submitting schoolwork and H was texting with other parents for quite a while trying to figure it out, so I figured he’d be stressed.

After dinner and bed, H tells me that there are issues with SS. Ex has mentioned it and tried to get it out of him, as have her parents. Nothing. H talked and SS was upset and crying. H said it’s about me and/or my family. Someone said it did something to him. Went so far as to imply that my brother-in-law (who H thinks is obnoxious) may have molested SS. I do not at all believe that.

All a surprise to me. My family did a Zoom call Sunday and when I asked SS if he wanted to participate, he said yes and seemed enthusiastic. He was just fine during and after. He’s hardly ever around them and, when he is, he’s running around with kids. Anyway, I’m more inclined to believe that, if there is a problem, it’s related to blended-family issues. He may see that he different. He may see me as an authoritarian wicked stepmom. Not hard to believe. He was perfectly fine and normal eating dinner and normal this morning.

Ex took SS to a therapist, apparently. I’m still not clear on what behavior she’s seeing. Two years ago we went through something like this when SS kept wanting to be at our house and not hers. She freaked out. It blew over.

The conversation started well enough, then turned on to the “your family hates me” theme. He brought my autistic 5-year-old niece into it and talked about how they’re all embarrassed of her (far from true). Said people at the church where he works are talking about how he abused me and that people think it was physical. So my family must have spilled. He claimed he told me months ago but I know he didn’t. And I’m not sure what if how much to believe. When he’s upset, things get twisted.

Things are better this morning. We were able to talk through some things. Also concluded that there are a number of explanations for the issue with SS:
1) He gets easily upset about anything.
2) The divorce/remarriage thing can be difficult for any child from time to time.
3) There’s a history of him seeming upset or having a tough time with something, his mother reacting strongly and then it turning out to be a temporary phase.
4) He has, unfortunately, witnessed quite a few arguments between us the last few months.

H is going to keep an eye out and be open but not push him any more.

Anyway, we’re in a better place this morning but it opens up a whole new can of worms and digs deeper into the me vs. family thing. It’s an ongoing theme and I don’t know how to solve it. And if possible abuse or molestation of SS is going to get thrown in — that could turn things nuclear.

[Ozzie101]

So yesterday, H took SS to the park to ride his bike, play tennis and run around. They got home around 7:45-8 and didn’t come in until 9. I could tell they were talking so I didn’t interrupt. There have been complications with submitting schoolwork and H was texting with other parents for quite a while trying to figure it out, so I figured he’d be stressed.

After dinner and bed, H tells me that there are issues with SS. Ex has mentioned it and tried to get it out of him, as have her parents. Nothing. H talked and SS was upset and crying. H said it’s about me and/or my family. Someone said it did something to him. Went so far as to imply that my brother-in-law (who H thinks is obnoxious) may have molested SS. I do not at all believe that.

All a surprise to me. My family did a Zoom call Sunday and when I asked SS if he wanted to participate, he said yes and seemed enthusiastic. He was just fine during and after. He’s hardly ever around them and, when he is, he’s running around with kids. Anyway, I’m more inclined to believe that, if there is a problem, it’s related to blended-family issues. He may see that he different. He may see me as an authoritarian wicked stepmom. Not hard to believe. He was perfectly fine and normal eating dinner and normal this morning.

Ex took SS to a therapist, apparently. I’m still not clear on what behavior she’s seeing. Two years ago we went through something like this when SS kept wanting to be at our house and not hers. She freaked out. It blew over.

The conversation started well enough, then turned on to the “your family hates me” theme. He brought my autistic 5-year-old niece into it and talked about how they’re all embarrassed of her (far from true). Said people at the church where he works are talking about how he abused me and that people think it was physical. So my family must have spilled. He claimed he told me months ago but I know he didn’t. And I’m not sure what if how much to believe. When he’s upset, things get twisted.

Things are better this morning. We were able to talk through some things. Also concluded that there are a number of explanations for the issue with SS:
1) He gets easily upset about anything.
2) The divorce/remarriage thing can be difficult for any child from time to time.
3) There’s a history of him seeming upset or having a tough time with something, his mother reacting strongly and then it turning out to be a temporary phase.
4) He has, unfortunately, witnessed quite a few arguments between us the last few months.

H is going to keep an eye out and be open but not push him any more.

Anyway, we’re in a better place this morning but it opens up a whole new can of worms and digs deeper into the me vs. family thing. It’s an ongoing theme and I don’t know how to solve it. And if possible abuse or molestation of SS is going to get thrown in — that could turn things nuclear.

[Cat Familiar]

The less energy you give this, the better. Accusations such as these are toxic and even without any basis, they can stick.

Children having “secrets” can elicit more attention. It could be nothing at all, or something minor, but by not wanting to talk, he’s found that he can really get the adults to focus upon him.

Worst case, your husband could feed him ideas and he could embrace them as “true”. That’s how false memories can get implanted.

Best to give him positive attention with fun activities and not try to delve into his secret world. That’s best left to a professional therapist.

[Ozzie101]

Wise advice and stated much better than I was able to manage. His mother and grandparents are, it sounds like, hovering and trying to get him to talk. Same thing happened a couple of years ago but regarding his mom. (Kept saying get wanted to be at our house.) Because H has issues with my family, I think he more willing and quick to jump on the idea they may have done something.

As I said, H is in a better, more rational place today. But if SS does make an accusation, I’ll be in a horrible position. Because, no, I wouldn’t believe it — for a number of reasons.

[formflier]

There is a "principle" that I think you need to refine as a brief talking point and that should be the only "energy" that you give it.  Exactly right that the less energy you give this the better.

You do need to let hubby and SS know (practice this here first) that problems rarely get "understood" or even "solved" with "implications" (implicit meanings, implying things happened...etc etc)

There should be lots of empathy offered that it's hard sometimes to sort out things, especially the first time dealing with them...that's why being open and sharing is the best way forward...so parents can help guide them to finding more appropriate words.

If "implications" start to be made, that can be tricky.  There really is no middle ground.  Either the accusation is made and the process starts or it is dropped. 

The hard part for you guys will be listening to pull out details to see if there is anything there.

 

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Very true. Implications, half-statements, guesswork — all lead to problems.

SS has a tendency to be tight-lipped. Even when it comes to simple things like mealtime or snacks. Instead of saying he’s hungry or asking for seconds, he hunts around or waits to be asked.

I really don’t think anything was done to him. I know I didn’t.

Like I said, the implication he has problems with my family is just odd. He’s seemed eager and happy to Zoom with them as recently as Sunday afternoon.

[formflier]

Like I said, the implication he has problems with my family is just odd.

Did you actually hear him imply he has problems or did you accept the observation of your hubby or someone else.

I would suggest that you rely on your observations and that you hold the observations of disordered people in "high suspicion".

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Oh, I’m with you on that, believe me. I didn’t hear anything. I know he and SS has a long talk. But the very fact that it was a 2-3-hour conversation late in the evening with a 9-year-old alone would be enough for me to be skeptical. SS could easily have been overwhelmed and confused. According to H, his Ex has noticed things. But she has a history of overreacting big-time.

I rarely believe anything H tells me — particularly when he’s upset. Too many instances of him exaggerating, misleading or flat-out lying. Of course, he picks up on my not believing (since I don’t react with instant emotion) and that upsets him further.

For instance, does his boss know about the verbal abuse? I don’t know. H didn’t mention it at all today when we talked. But last night he was using it as a justification for why he should be “allowed” to post on FB or send out emails revealing my sister’s alcohol problem to everyone he knows. Fair trade.

[formflier]

If you don't believe him (and from sounds of it you shouldn't)...then a decision needs to be deliberately made.

Either

1.  Continue listening and figure out strategies so what he says has little effect on you and the way you live you life

or

2.  Drastically reduce the amount you hear

My recommendation is probably towards number 1. Perhaps actively trying to end conversations earlier.

That there was a 2 or 3 hour conversation with a child is over the top.  Especially since it was likely a contentious one.

So sorry you are having to deal with this.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Thanks FF!

I think I’m getting better at shortening. The other night, at one point I told him that we could continue the conversation the next day but nothing further was going to be settled that night. We both went to bed.

So, better. And during the conversation, I tried to make a conscious effort not to be triggered. I wasn’t perfect, but it didn’t escalate.

After recent events, I have definite concrete examples that H doesn’t always tell the truth when he’s dysregulating. When he’s balanced, he’s way more trustworthy, rational, open to discussion, and quick to recognize and point out his own faults. But when he’s upset for whatever reason...

The problem with SS is a continuing one — one that has concerned me on a greater level and that I’ve posted about before. Anything to do with SS is a huge trigger for him. All it takes is for SS to get upset about something while H is already wobbly. He’ll completely misunderstand something SS has said or, like the other night, engage in a lengthy, fraught conversation with him and put way too much stock in/infer too much from a conversation with an immature child.

It frightens me a bit.

I’ve seen H overreact multiple times. Only once was that aimed at me (he misheard SS’s requests for seconds as an accusation that I hadn’t fed him) but it’s a pattern.

Feels to me like SS has way too much power. H, Ex and her parents all react to anything he says or feels with anger or coddling and lots of worry. When H is calm and stable, he handles it the way any good parent would, calmly and reasonably or with a “eh, not a big deal. He fine.” When he’s not, though, it’s not pretty. And any lack of proper concern or reaction is a sign that I don’t care and am a horrible person.

I see this all as a potential mine field long-term. Or maybe I’m over-thinking.

[Cat Familiar]

I love metaphors and sometimes what makes sense to me as a metaphor seems out in left field to someone else.

That said, I’d like to give you a horse metaphor for your husband. In mammals, the corpus callosum connects the two sides of the brain, easily transferring information. But with the horse, some information and learning isn’t automatically shared.

For example, you can be riding down the road and a horse might see an object that is typically not there in that particular spot. (Horses have a fabulous memory.) The horse might react fearfully and stop a distance away to make sure what is seen isn’t a preditor—a discarded lawn chair that fell out of the neighbor’s truck on the way to the dump. Once the horse is reassured that all is safe, the ride proceeds.

Then an hour later, on the way back home, the horse suddenly stops dead in its tracks with a fearful response. That dreaded lawn chair! But hey, you saw it before and it was OK.

Well, that’s not how the horse’s brain processes the information. The lawn chair was seen out of one eye—monocular vision and recorded on one side of the brain. The other eye and other side of the brain had no foreknowledge of that lawn chair. There was no communication between the hemispheres of the brain that the lawn chair would be seen again.

I think of this metaphor with pwBPD when they’re perfectly rational and normal and when they’re dysregulating. It seems as if their brains have two sides that aren’t in communication.

Sometimes a horse can be very comfortable with a human on one side of its body, say putting on a saddle, but frightened when the person tries to saddle from the “off side”. These glitches can be worked out with patience and understanding.

To make this metaphor connect with your husband, he’s got a glitch as far as his son is concerned. It’s understandable given his own unstable upbringing. When he’s coming from his “thinking” side, he’s able to consider issues rationally. But when he’s responding from his “reactive” side, all bets are off.

The unfortunate thing is that he’s reinforcing some unwanted and ineffectual traits in his son by overparticpating from his emotionally reactive side, such as having two hour conversations. What his son needs is a father who is coming from his thinking side, who can give him strong, reliable support, rather than a flighty, fearful, reactive presence.

[Ozzie101]

That’s a really good metaphor, Cat! Makes a lot of sense. The two “sides” are really different and bewildering — though I understand and anticipate a lot better now.

H isn’t doing SS any favors and I can see that. Ex isn’t either, from what I can tell. Any issue and she gets upset. Last fall, we found out SS got assigned the teacher he didn’t want. Ex griped to H and they both had an “ugh! This will be an awful year — why is SS being picked on/shafted” go-round and discussed if they should ask to switch. When H asked me, I said that:
1) Do we know why he didn’t want her? Possible one kid on the playground made a comment and that’s all he’s going by.
2) You don’t know there will be a problem.
3) Isn’t it better to give her a chance? It can teach SS how to adapt and get along and not that his parents will swoop in to rescue him.
4) It’s rarely, if ever, a good idea to let a third grader make big decisions about his life and education.

H listened to me and recommended they do nothing. Guess what? He loves his teacher. Turns out, yeah, one kid complained that she got on to him for talking in class.

All that to say, they’re both triggered by him, then trigger each other. They’ll also twist into knots to avoid upsetting him (though she’s more guilty there than H).

SS doesn’t seem consciously manipulative or aware of his power at this point (could be but hard to tell) but I’m sure he’ll figure it out.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Ozzie,

  to you!

My H is in the legal field...interesting, huh?  He has told me of some cases with unsubstantiated child abuse claims that have gotten very out of hand. False claims can be used as weapons and it can have catastrophic impact.

On the flip side is exactly the rational brain vs disordered brain “understanding”. I’ve witnessed my H decipher a suggestion one of our kids made and I cannot tell you how many times he’s gotten it wrong. So much that he will go on to tell the kid that’s not what they said when we all heard it. It’s part of the “you feel how I feel” and he can’t understand a different feeling. I suspect these “misunderstandings” occur more when he’s dysregulated (to any degree) but I’ve only recently been able to see a pattern so not 100% sure.

I agree to keep this discussion to a minimum. I would even think of some to dos to change the path. Limit any time with your family, or ensure that SS is never left unattended alone with them, especially the BIL.  I am not saying your family did anything wrong. I’m saying protect SS AND your family. I would document details somewhere. 

And, maybe you could take the lead with a new shared activity for you, H and SS to shift his focus more positively. Take on a new challenge with him. Give him direction and positive achievement. If he gets attention from insinuating false claims, maybe instead offer positive attention elsewhere. I’m not saying you aren’t, but changing this potentially damaging insinuation without them realizing may be enough to move along.

I’m sure you have reasons why you don’t believe this with your BIL. Does it go beyond your H’s BPD?  You don’t have to answer if you’re not comfortable, but if there could be any truth to it, it is a child so despite whatever you H has going on, just want to make sure SS is protected. Again, I’m not taking sides but I know I can attribute a whole lot to my H’s uBPD, but sometimes there’s truth to it. And, he could have filled in a whole bunch of nothing and as Cat mentioned, could also be creating false memories.

Serious hugs to you. Hard work, much support.

[Ozzie101]

Thank you UBPDHelp! I always appreciate your input.

No, I don’t believe there’s any truth in it. Neither H nor SS accused BIL of anything. H just (in mid-dysregulation) said BIL is creepy. First time he’s ever said that. And, no, BIL isn’t. He’s a sweet, friendly, gregarious guy who I’d trust with anyone. H doesn’t like him because he’s “loud” and “obnoxious.” Yes, he can be. He has ADHD but is medicated for it and gets along just fine.

If I believed there was anything behind it, my attitude would be different. But I haven’t noticed anything off about SS. His time with my family has been extremely limited and when we are with them, he’s either in our sight or off playing with other kids while adults eat or talk. As recently as last weekend he was eager and happy to join in a family Zoom call.

Throw in that H has a history of reading into or misinterpreting things SS has said. And that about a year and a half ago H went through a period of telling me he was convinced that my father, grandfather or uncle must have molested me.

No, I don’t believe anything happened.

Honestly, if there’s even a problem at all, I’d be more likely to say it’s that SS is going through an “I don’t like my stepmom” phase. I’m the stricter of the two adults in the house. He may see my stopping him from doing flips over the ottoman as being mean. Who knows.

[Butane]

Throw in that H has a history of reading into or misinterpreting things SS has said. And that about a year and a half ago H went through a period of telling me he was convinced that my father, grandfather or uncle must have molested me.

I was caught off guard by the above. So strange that your H would develop this fixed idea... you say this was a "period" of time. Did he eventually drop the idea?

My H would (over a few years period) bring something similar up to me. He was convinced that I must have been molested, and accused me of being in denial.

If you don't mind sharing, what made your H think this? How did he respond when you told him you didn't believe this occurred?

It's a little odd. His current comments about "creepy" uncle and possible inappropriate behaviours is actually not the first time his mind has gone along this theme.

[Ozzie101]

He did eventually drop it and now doesn’t remember ever saying it. I have a letter he wrote, though, where he said it.

He said it was because I was sexually repressed (I’m not, but I was very inexperienced when we met) and too attached to my family. He said that indicated I had been brainwashed. The fact I call my dad “daddy” was another point — though that’s a family/regional thing. We’re Southern. It’s not uncommon at all down here.

 Said it was probably a repressed memory thing and that’s why I denied it.

I agree, it’s odd that he latched onto this. To be fair, with SS he’s also said it could have been someone throwing something at him or being verbally cruel (also things I could never believe) so he’s not totally latched into molestation. I don’t want to speculate too much because that rarely leads to good, helpful places, but the pattern is interesting.

[Cat Familiar]

That this is a "go-to" thought for him makes me think he's had some personal experience as a child.

[Ozzie101]

That’s my thought too. But I’m trying not to go too far down the assumption road. I wouldn’t be surprised and it’s something my therapist mentioned as a possibility last year.