H really losing it Part 2

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344588.30

I really appreciate all the advice and concern.

This is the first time he’s been this quiet this long in a situation like this. Hopefully he’s cooling off. I’m focusing on relaxing while also developing various plans of action while not letting myself get anxious.

It’s so bewildering. Today really is such a stark example of the Jekyll and Hyde. He was so great this morning. Then so dissociated and belligerent this afternoon.

I just don’t know what to do with it all. Knowing that, as things stand, this will keep happening. That things can be great and then boom, he can spin off into this other personality.

Tonight’s not the time to make that ultimate decision.

And, Mutt, it’s definitely possible that he’s been worried about that and in a dysregulation it’s coming out. What’s truly sad is that it’s a self-fulfilling prophesy. His fears and his way of handling them could end up driving me away when, otherwise, I wouldn’t have gone anywhere.

[Ozzie101]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344588.30

I really appreciate all the advice and concern.

This is the first time he’s been this quiet this long in a situation like this. Hopefully he’s cooling off. I’m focusing on relaxing while also developing various plans of action while not letting myself get anxious.

It’s so bewildering. Today really is such a stark example of the Jekyll and Hyde. He was so great this morning. Then so dissociated and belligerent this afternoon.

I just don’t know what to do with it all. Knowing that, as things stand, this will keep happening. That things can be great and then boom, he can spin off into this other personality.

Tonight’s not the time to make that ultimate decision.

And, Mutt, it’s definitely possible that he’s been worried about that and in a dysregulation it’s coming out. What’s truly sad is that it’s a self-fulfilling prophesy. His fears and his way of handling them could end up driving me away when, otherwise, I wouldn’t have gone anywhere.

[Harri]

Hi.

 

What’s truly sad is that it’s a self-fulfilling prophesy. His fears and his way of handling them could end up driving me away when, otherwise, I wouldn’t have gone anywhere.

Yes.  I think this is one of the saddest parts of this disorder. 

Remember, if you do end up going to your family, you do not need to give a lot of details to them.  You can say something simple like "I just need some space".  Do you think they would leave it at that?

How are these episodes usually resolved?  Do you ever sit down and discuss options and come to an understanding that you might need some space but will return or anything lke that?  I am thinking of small gradual behavioral changes that can keep you safe, help you express your needs, etc.

[UBPDHelp]

I’m here for you, too, Ozzie. The others have wonderful advice and wisdom.

I come bearing just a shoulder and some   .

Deep breaths.

I have felt exactly the same...their behavior is the wedge that will drive us apart...

Stay strong...thinking of you.  

[I Am Redeemed]

I'm glad you have a therapy appointment tomorrow.

Do you think his comments about cutting contact with his bio family were laying the groundwork for expectations for you to do the same with your family? He seems really obsessive about tit for tat and "I did this, therefore you owe me something that is the equivalent".

Perhaps he is worried that your therapist is convincing you that you should leave him and he thinks you are planning to do so.

[Ozzie101]

He came home upset but I’ve ended the discussion and am going to bed. I can’t tell you all what your support means. I’ll fill in more tomorrow. Basically a lot more of the same — “you won’t stand up for me against your family, other people are so much more supportive than you etc.” And he doesn’t at all remember some of the crazy stuff he said earlier.

I’ll type more tomorrow.

[UBPDHelp]

Morning Ozzie,

I hope you eventually had a peaceful night and were able to get some sleep.

I found this board far too late to save anything resembling a normal relationship. I don’t feel I can offer advice because of the mess of things I’ve made.

My H used the same tactic with me except I fell for it. For a while I defended and in the beginning it wasn’t so often. An event and he would get offended (he didn’t save this for just my family, but they were most useful to weaken me, I suppose) and somehow it would “mean something” I didn’t understand.

I had an issue with my sister years ago. I would have gotten over it eventually, but my H kept it alive. He used my words against me and twisted them. I tried to correct, but we all know how JADEing goes AND I had no idea about BPD or any tools.

Looking back now I can see how this was all just projection and control. About 17-20 years into our marriage these things became insults to him and by default I wasn’t taking his side. I won’t go into the scrambled arguments and how I allowed myself to be manipulated.

Just want you to know you’re not alone. I think you are doing a great job maintaining your boundary.

The others have offered great advice and know far more than me.

I hope today is a better day. Let us know how things are going. 

[Ozzie101]

Morning everyone. 

Thank you all again for your support last night (and this morning  UBPDHelp)!

Around 9, he came home, rather combative. He was upset that I hadn’t attempted to call him. I told him I had. Twice. He pulled his phone out and insisted I hadn’t and he could prove it. Went into his regular pattern of accusing me of believing things that aren’t true — even when it’s something I know is true because I was there. Semantics of “you think” vs. “I know.” I didn’t get caught up in it. Stared my truth and walked inside.

Anyway, it went along usual lines. I knew SS’s teacher was a problem with the grading yet I never went to my teacher BIL (a high school teacher in the same district but different town) for help. Shows I don’t care. No, I do. I just don’t see how he could help.

Lots of usual stuff about how my family doesn’t like him or SS and I do nothing. How it would mean so much to him if I would just blow off a Zoom call or tell them that time/day doesn’t work for us — just to test them. That I shouldn’t do them when SS isn’t here. I said I understood how he felt and I like it better when SS can be there but I want to see them. And other kids and adults have had to miss a call. The calls still go on. He’s not being singled out.

We’re at cross purposes there. He seems to want things from me that just don’t feel like me. Or he fails/refuses to see I’ve already done some of them.

The big kicker: I told him some of the crazy stuff he said. He got emotional and told me that he was at work on a webinar and somehow found himself on the floor. He’d somehow blacked out. Also said he’s gotten more and more forgetful. It scares him and he’s had an MRI and CT that turned up nothing. I told him he needs to call his doctor today to report this latest incident.

The thing is — do I believe him? I kind of do. But then at the moment I’m not sure. He’s emotionally confessed something to me before mid-argument before going right back to the fight.

This morning I came down and found a note. He said he keeps messing up and he’s not sure why. Said his therapists had suggested couple’s therapy so we could understand each other better and I could see how he needs me to understand and meet his needs. No mention of my needs. He closed by asking what I think would be best and most helpful going forward.

I sent him a good morning text and said we can talk when he gets home.

[Ozzie101]

And to address questions, we’ve never sat down and talked about needing space, etc.

My family might leave it at that with me, but it would set their minds spinning. Get their imaginations working. After what happened before...

I know he’s worried my therapist is trying to get me to leave. I’ve assured him therapists don’t do that (good ones anyway) and that I do it to try to help us. He doesn’t buy it.

He talked a lot last night about people at work supporting him and all being shocked that I won’t do more about my family. That I won’t tell him what to do with his family (I still refuse — I will advise, discuss, but won’t tell him what to do). He also made multiple references to a good friend of his who is also close to my doctor BIL. According to H, this friend has all kinds of knowledge and insight into my family and what they really think and feel about me/him/us.

[Cat Familiar]

Lot of paranoid ideation there. Some big issues that you mentioned: he doesn’t seem to be thinking of your needs and he seems determined to drive a wedge between you and your family. 

[Ozzie101]

Yes. He’s convinced that I don’t understand what he needs. I do, actually. I just disagree with him on things.

He can make it all sound so reasonable. And I’m sure if he really is talking to friends about it, I do look like an uncaring, unfeeling wife with no backbone who can’t cut the apron strings. Thing is, he made the same statements about SS’s mom.

There is truth in what he says. No, I don’t like confrontation. And, no, I don’t want to confront my family. But that’s because I just don’t feel like it would go over well or accomplish anything positive. They haven’t been as welcoming to him as they could have been. But despite his insistence, he has not gone “above and beyond” or “out of his way” to connect. There’s fault all around.

Do they like him? Probably not now. There was a chance early on they would. But he was so sullen and distant. And then all the stuff that happened last year — there was no good will to fall back on.

Anyway, my “confronting” them would backfire and would end up hurting him more. They know me well enough to know he would be behind it. And they’d have more reason to dislike him.

[GaGrl]

I agree with Cat that his lack of recognizing your needs and his attempts to separate you from your family are the two most concerning marital isdues. However, interwoven with those are the paranoia and dissociation, and those are pretty severe.

Perhaps a marriage counselor can give you a safe space to address the marital issues while also bringing up the concerns over the other. Or, would be allow you to accompany him to a doctor's appointment about the passing out?

[Cat Familiar]

If he were an emotionally healthy man, he’d recognize a great opportunity to immerse himself in a large welcoming family.(They probably would have been more welcoming if he had been friendly and receptive from the beginning.)

Instead, he is trying to separate you from your loved ones. I remember him trying to get you to cut off your grandma. Was it some sort of equitable exchange in his mind for not seeing his bio family?

This is really troubling to me. It’s a standard tactic of abusers to alienate their spouse from their family.

Yes, he had a difficult upbringing, but that’s no excuse for him trying to ruin your relationship with your family.

[Ozzie101]

Very much agreed and it’s not something I will allow to happen.

He came home and we had a long talk. He admitted he’s still been drinking (sneaking around). He was rational again, saying he doesn’t want me to cut off my family.

Anyway, I told him the family thing will take time with him learning to relax and actually talk to people.

Also told him that the dissociations are a huge problem (he knows and also knows I knew he was drinking) and that will have to get under control for any other issues to be addressed in a healthy manner.

It will take time. But incidents like last night and belligerent attacks on my family are going to make it less likely any genuine problems will be addressed.

I don’t trust him. He gets that, he says, and he wants to get better.

He complained again that he’s the only one who’s had to adapt or change. I responded by asking if he genuinely can’t see how anyone else had to adjust. Family members. Me. Maybe he had to adjust more but sometimes that’s how it goes. He said he never thought about it that way.

We’ll see. I was pretty blunt with him about some things and he says he needs to try harder with the drinking and talk to his doctor.

My problem with MC is this: he’s not talkative in therapy, by his own admission. I am. It would be a situation where I talk and he ends up feeling attacked.

It was a good conversation but we’ve had them before. We’ll just have to see where it goes.

[Cat Familiar]

Sounds like you were able to speak your truth and he was able to hear it. Hopefully he will remember that attacking your family is off limits.

As far as “having to adapt” I would argue that you’ve had to adapt far more than he has. Being a stepmom is a huge adaptation.

[Ozzie101]

Yes. And I said as much to him. He may have had to adapt to occasional gatherings. I’ve had to adapt in my own home.

He said he feels like since he’s so critical of his own family, he feels like it’s ok to criticize others’. I told him I saw his logic but it was faulty. I asked if he’d ever heard the saying “Nobody beats up my brother but me.” Also said, you sometimes say critical things about SS. If anyone else said those same things, you’d go through the roof. He said he “got it.”

Again, we’ll see. We’ve had good conversations before.

The drinking is going to be a big deal here. It’s not the only issue and he said himself he’s not trying to use it as an excuse but it does make things worse.

[GaGrl]

You have described these "good talks" before, and this is becoming a pattern...

H says he won't drink.
H experiences some stress and anxiety.
H begins to drink, in secret.
H becomes increasingly critical of you and your family.
H experiences some triggering event.
H spirals into paranoia and dissociates, loses his memory of what he did or said, severely frightening you.
H returns to baseline, somewhat acknowledges his problems, promises to address drinking.

How many times has this happened now? Is H aware of the pattern?

Do you believe he is capable of breaking out of this cycle without significant psychiatric help?

[Ozzie101]

Yes, I do see the pattern.

Can he break out of it? I don’t know. He’s agreed to talk to his doctor, which I encourage. Basically, I’m monitoring. I’m watching for signs that he’s ramping up again or of repeats.

I’ve made it clear to him that the current pattern cannot continue. And, yes, he’s aware of the pattern and that things aren’t being addressed or solved. He also said he knows he hasn’t tried hard enough with the drinking.

I’m too jaded at this point to believe it’s all going to change now.

I guess I’m not sure what to do. At some point, I will have had enough. Last night was the closest I’ve gotten to leaving. He does need help. But what kind and how to get it? I don’t know. I hope the doctor can give some guidance there. Assuming he goes.

[Cat Familiar]

He’s had a number of therapists, if I remember correctly. And with each one, he’s ended the relationship because they didn’t do what he needed—is that right?

That seems like a pattern too, that people are supposed to figure out what he “needs” and then just do it. And if they don’t, he will drop them or talk badly about them.

Not suggesting that you do this, because it could be seen as a huge violation of trust and it could put you in a very uncomfortable position, but I’d be curious about the ex-wife’s experience with him—if those behaviors you’ve been experiencing were ultimately what drove her away.

I’d bet that some of these patterns are long-standing.

[Ozzie101]

Back when things really blew up early last year, he texted his ex to ask about some of his behaviors and if they had happened with her (rage, dissociation). She said no. The only odd thing was he would get overly worked up about some things. I saw the text string.

He insists the intensity of things hasn’t come up before. Even if that’s true, the seeds were there, I’m sure.

[GaGrl]

I think you mentioned he left therapists because they didn't tell him what to do, would not give him the solution or answer. Just as he wants you to figure out the answer and give it to him.

So here's the run with that attitude of belief and therapy...it isn't going to happen. There's a reason we talk about therapy and "doing the work." He has to be willing to dig in and do some deep therapy.

Without that, it's likely you might see some behavior change but not long-term, significant improvement.

[Ozzie101]

Very true. It will require time and a lot of effort. We discussed that today and he seemed to get it. But I’m using a wait, watch, adjust as necessary approach.

I made it pretty clear to him, though, what the stakes are.

[I Am Redeemed]

We're you able to speak with your therapist about last night?

[Ozzie101]

I was. She was pleased with how I handled things and my state of mind. Shdd Ed said I’m making some good stands. Supported him talking to his doctor and also recommended a neuro-psychologist.

It was good to talk to her. Good timing.

[GaGrl]

It can be exceptionally helpful in situations like this to listen to objective, third party observations.

[Ozzie101]

Very true. It’s often hard for us to see through the emotions and complicated history. That’s why therapy and places like this are so valuable.

[Harri]

Hi Ozzie.

How's it going?

I’ve made it clear to him that the current pattern cannot continue. And, yes, he’s aware of the pattern and that things aren’t being addressed or solved. He also said he knows he hasn’t tried hard enough with the drinking.

Thanks for the additional info about how the talks go and that there is a pattern of him agreeing and then not changing.  I am more concerned about you and what you do and how you respond.  I am not saying you are doing anything wrong.  I am wondering if, during those calm talks, if you could both review your safety plan and let him know that when he gets like he did the other night (and many others) you will take the dogs and spend the night in a hotel... or go to dinner and a movie, or even delay going him by an hour or two so you can both have time to think, calm down and spend some time apart with a clear message that it will be a temporary time away.

You and others here know your history with him far better than me so this may not apply or work for you, I can't tell.  I guess I am wondering if changing things up at your end, with you taking action to protect yourself and getting him to opt in might help set a new stage.  It would take some time and probably there will be extinction bursts though and he will say he forgot and what not but that is to be expected.  Over time, things may change. 

Would something like that work or am I way off?

[Ozzie101]

You’re not off at all, Harri and, in fact, I did tell him that I plan to go to a hotel in future — temporarily. The other night, he was the one who left. First time he’s really done that — for that long. Turns out he drove about 2 hours out of town, turned around and drove back, arriving in the morning.

He would forget, I’m sure. And any sign of my leaving brings panic and fear from him. That’s why I’m planning to have a “go bag” already ready to go in my car for the future.

In calm times, he’s very agreeable to any safety plans and even suggests some himself. He’s even urged me, if I ever feel unsafe, to call the police. Or that I should take his keys and wallet (which he leaves by the door when he comes in). Anyway, in calm times, he’s on board. When he gets stressed or anything, it all goes out the window.

[Harri]

Well that is great that you have been telling him this and that you did again the other night.

He will forget, especially if he is dysregulated.  He will react with panic and anxiety, that is a given right?  So maybe the next time, assuming he is not violent, start small and leave for an hour (or half hour).  Set up a safety word of some sort that is intended to remind him of the safety plan and agreement you both made about taking time alone.  Or maybe say, "We agreed that when things get like this between us, we need a break so I am going for a walk and will be back".  And then follow through.

Have you done something like that?

[Ozzie101]

We haven’t set up a safety word for that, no. But it’s a good idea.

Honestly, many times when this happens, it starts while he’s out somewhere. Then he texts or calls and I have a heads-up. In those cases, I was planning to be gone before he gets home. Remind him over the phone what the agreement is, I’m activating the plan, and will return but that I will be gone when he gets home.

Maybe that’s the wrong way (more likely to cause panic) but it just seems like that would remove the possibility of danger if he were to totally lose it at my leaving.

[Harri]

Remind him over the phone what the agreement is, I’m activating the plan, and will return but that I will be gone when he gets home.

Maybe that’s the wrong way (more likely to cause panic) but it just seems like that would remove the possibility of danger if he were to totally lose it at my leaving.

Oh, that is great!  Definitely remind him.  I wonder if you can leave a note for him too so when he gets home he can see it and have something to hold onto (both literally and figuratively)?

I do not think it is the wrong way to do it at all.  He will panic.  He also needs to learn to self soothe and learn to hold onto the plan you both agreed to.  That is why it is so important to get him to buy in and then remind him and use words like we and us rather than you when talking about it.  

I like your idea of the phone when possible Ozzie.   It is going to take time for both of you to learn to settle your emotions as you implement this change (him more than you though).