Update on the last few weeks Part 2

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344550.0

FF, I am pretty good at forgiving people... potentially too good in fact. I am a soft touch in fact. I have historically accepted cheap forgiveness. I have trained my W to offer cheap forgiveness and get 'clemency'. Not accepting cheap forgiveness and therefore not granting clemency is in essence me saying 'NO, the weight of this guilt is YOURS, you need to do work to absolve yourself of it rather than just hand it to me.'

To me, guilt has a mass and it's sticky, you can place it on people and it sticks to them and weighs them down (emotionally). She was trying to make me deal/carry her guilt rather than tell me that she was dealing with her guilt and what did I need as way of recompense.

[Enabler]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344550.0

FF, I am pretty good at forgiving people... potentially too good in fact. I am a soft touch in fact. I have historically accepted cheap forgiveness. I have trained my W to offer cheap forgiveness and get 'clemency'. Not accepting cheap forgiveness and therefore not granting clemency is in essence me saying 'NO, the weight of this guilt is YOURS, you need to do work to absolve yourself of it rather than just hand it to me.'

To me, guilt has a mass and it's sticky, you can place it on people and it sticks to them and weighs them down (emotionally). She was trying to make me deal/carry her guilt rather than tell me that she was dealing with her guilt and what did I need as way of recompense.

[Skip]

I think Enabler is debating whether he should accept her sorry and help her feel better, or reject it since it wasn't helpful to him.

Looking forward vs looking backward...

I think a forward looking view is:

My marriage is over and I need to build a new relationship that has one priority over all others - to create a safe relationship for my wife to interface with me so that she won't build up a co-parenting resentment like she built up a marriage resentment. This is a challenge facing all men in divorce - how do you go from sworn enemies to trusting and cooperative co-parents. If the co-parenting trust and cooperation break down, so will your access. PAS is a real threat.

I think a backward looking view is:

I judge her for what she has done (affair), let her know I judge her. I judge her for her religious hypocrisy, judge her for her parenting skills. I judge her choice of men. I judge how she wants to conduct her life, I judge her for her inconsistent care of my children. This will, inch by day, have her move distance from you, ask the kids not to tell, and retaliate in the only way she knows how - lower the quality of your relationship with your girls. She has already set the table in the community and it won't be hard to sell that meal. At this point, your interface with her has been judgemental for years. When I read your expectations, it sounds like you are expecting her to be very cooperative. But know, if you are dark, annoying blemish in her new life, she will find a way to minimize your presence. It happens all the time here. You have every right to feel this. But expressing it, however subtly, will not serve you well.

[Notwendy]

NO, the weight of this guilt is YOURS, you need to do work to absolve yourself of it rather than just hand it to me.'

It's still acting on her. It isn't your weight- you don't need to take any action with it.

I don't write a lot about my H, as thankfully- we don't have as many of the issues we did have. In the grand scheme of things, he's a lot different from my mother. What completely shocked me is seeing similar patterns in my own marriage that I observed in my parents. With a focus on the patterns, not the person, it led me to look at my own part in this situation. Co-dependency is a tough concept. It's not dependency- I am not a dependent person. Neither was my father. My mother is- she's so impaired that any function is completely dependent on getting other people to do things for her. She's quite good at it. Yet, somehow, my father, who earned all the money in the family, and was self sufficient, allowed her moods to rule his life and his money, and we kids were all enlisted as his co-co-dependents.

In my own marriage, I allowed my H to walk all over me, let go of some aspects of myself that I valued in order to avoid his criticism, tried to please him. Took on all the household work so he might validate  me. Being a doormat isn't the way to get someone to value you. This doesn't mean I don't do kind or caring things, that's different.

I know you know that story, but with a relatively milder situation, I was enabling the worst of the patterns. The person being enabled has little investment in changing that- they benefit from them. It's usually the enabler who is emotionally worn out from the enabling, and I think you have been there too.

I think there is some emotional investment in being the "good one"- the one who is doing it all for the good of the family, while the one who is being enabled seems to be having their cake and eat it too. Yet, if you asked them, they think they are the one who is suffering at the hands of their enabler, and no amount of "being good" seems to change this impression.

It doesn't mean we stop trying to be good people. I think that's important from a moral standpoint. I think it means we stop trying to change their image of us by being "the good one" and also see where "being the good one" is not being kind to them, but enabling them to be less than their best.

It means we stop looking at them to "see us" or "validate us" and that includes having them feel guilty for what they have done. Their feelings belong to them. They can deal with them. We don't have to hand them back to them. Likely though, even doing that won't achieve what we would want- guilt and remorse. Recall that pwBPD project and have other ways they deal with feelings rather than feel them. And so do people with co-dependency. Focusing on someone else's feelings takes our attention off our own.

I think it takes some faith, of your choosing. There's a higher judge, or Karma if you choose. I am ot the judge or director of someone else's Karma. If someone breaks the law, there is the law to enforce that. If someone violates my own boundaries, I need to deal with that. But deciding that someone needs to feel their own guilt- that's not under our control.

That higher judge is yours too, Enabler, and if no one else knows the truth you do and your Creator does too. I'm not one to assign a religion to anyone, but the idea of something higher than us can be perceived in many ways. Your job is to be accountable for your own action, and to take care of your children who are too young to take care of themselves. It helped me a lot to take this perspective.

It's a cliche that when one door closes, one opens, but often statements like this are built on truths too. I know you grieve the closing door, but I hope that this now opens up a whole new possibility for you, one you might really be happy with.

[ct21218]

This goes back to the whole line of thought you had several months ago to 'make her accountable.'  You are not her parent and she does not have to answer to you. There is peace is choosing to be the bigger person and allowing her to have her own journey.  I don't think it is admirable to decide whether or not an apology is good enough for you.  This is what she is currently capable of.  The bigger picture is that you will have to work cooperatively to parent with her..  The focus should be on your kids and not whether your wife's repentance meets your expectations.  You are not her God.

[GaGrl]

Going back to the earlier statement that forgiveness is something we do for oursrlves, not for the person transgressing...

I don't hear that Enabled has forgiven his wife yet, not at all. Maybe there's a big difference between closure and forgiveness here.

Forgiveness does not require an ask, a confession, an acknowledgement. It requires nothing at all from the other person. Forgiveness is a deeply personal action requiring introspection.

If Enabler is waiting on the "right" apology, it's an artificial construct. Just bypass all that and do the personal work.

[Cat Familiar]

You may be waiting a loong time if you’re waiting for a sincere apology and accountability.

My former husband, who I’ve written about extensively here, who was violent, financially irresponsible, had multiple infidelities, was a substance abuser...showed up without notice at my house many months after our divorce was finished.

While he was here, I remember him saying, “I’m not a bad guy.”

It was such a ludicrous statement after an incredibly contentious divorce, where he lied about assets and said outside the courthouse, “I’m going to get everything I can out of you.”

To his “bad guy” remark, I said nothing, perhaps involuntarily raised an eyebrow. I treated him with politeness during his unauthorized visit. It helped perhaps that a couple of friends were visiting. I showed him how I completed some unfinished building projects that he had started, and to my surprise, he complimented me on the work. Shortly after, he left, never to return, thankfully.

I got my closure. I realized that he would never acknowledge things that he’d done. He would never see the cruelty, the irresponsibility, the unkindness of his behavior. He saw himself as “not a bad guy.” I guess that’s a start, but it’s no longer my business.

You, Enabler, don’t have the luxury of no contact with your wife. You will be part of each other’s lives for years to come as you coparent your children.

I doubt that she is either capable or willing to fully acknowledge how her behavior has impacted you, and even if she briefly considers that, undoubtedly she will have a justification that you were deserving of whatever she did because you were “controlling” or some other rationale that she has concocted in her mind to make her choices seem reasonable.

[Fian]

Several have used the argument that if he does not accept her apology that means he hasn't forgiven her.  I am not so sure that is true.  I would liken it to someone killing your brother.  You may choose to forgive them but that doesn't mean you help them hide the body.  In this situation, it appears she is trying to make herself feel better about what she has done, and Enabler didn't want to participate.  It is her guilt, and he doesn't want to play a role in it.  That isn't punishing her or trying to control her.

So, should Enabler help her feel better about her guilt?  To be honest, I don't see the answer as clear cut.  You could liken it to a wounded coyote that just killed the hens in your hen house.  You can still show mercy, even though it has harmed you.  Or you can look at forgiveness as more active on your part.  You can approach her directly and say, "Even though you have hurt me, I forgive you."  Then it doesn't depend on how well she said sorry.

[formflier]

Several have used the argument that if he does not accept her apology that means he hasn't forgiven her.  I am not so sure that is true.  I would liken it to someone killing your brother.  You may choose to forgive them but that doesn't mean you help them hide the body.  In this situation, it appears she is trying to make herself feel better about what she has done, and Enabler didn't want to participate.  It is her guilt, and he doesn't want to play a role in it.  That isn't punishing her or trying to control her.
 

Absolutely perfectly said...

I would argue that Enabler should forgive her.  Whether or not he informs her of this is a separate matter.

I don't see any disconnect with Enabler striving to coparent better in the future and also not in any way whatsoever "helping" his wife feel better about the past.  Perhaps he should be explicit and say as much to her (kinda thinking outloud here).

Best,

FF

[ct21218]

FF, I think your advice would be fine if Enabler and his wife had no kids and were separating forever.  That is not the case.  His behavior seems adversarial and it's going to take the divorce in that direction.  Your advice for the last year was to not participate in the divorce decision and it seemed to keep Enabler stuck.  The marriage has been long over and now is the time to make nice temporarily to work out the best custody arrangement possible.  Short term sacrifice for a long term gain. 

Or he can be difficult and drag this situation out even longer.

[Fian]

I do agree that there are advantages to Enabler being extra pleasant during this stage.  On the other hand, the type of "sorry" that she wants might be best be left for a post-divorce discussion.  Right now it is sorry, but I am going to keep doing it, as opposed to I am sorry for what happened in the past.

[Skip]

Right now it is sorry, but I am going to keep doing it...

Don't you think this was just a passing peacemaking remark?

She could say, I found a house and I'm moving because you are abusive jerk. Instead she communicated "I found a house and, hey look, it wasn't all you". This is adult speak for "let's stop fighting."

She followed it with "let's look forward and not backward". This is adult speak for "what's done is done and we all would be better served to drop it".

She followed that with "I love someone else and I am going to pursue that future". This is adult speak for "I may feel conflicted about about our past, but not about my future". Surely she feels some conflicted feelings about the marriage failure - anyone would.

I feel sorry for this situation, too. I imagine many of us do. There are broken hearts here. Soon there will be little broken hearts. Birthdays and Christmas will never be simple again. The end of a family is heart breaking.

[formflier]

It is certainly possible that she meant it as Fian interpreted it and it's certainly possible she meant it as Skip interpreted it.  We'll never really know.

Might be interesting to put the "lens" on it of what is the most "likely" way she meant it, given what we know about her in particular and pwBPD in general.  

Skips version appears to ascribe a lot of EQ to her.  It's possible that is overly generous.

I'm wondering if a better shift might be to directly ask her what she sees as the next step (listen first) and then propose moving forward on that "and also" signing the child sharing agreement (not sure what technical name is).  

Best,

FF

[ct21218]

I just heard a pretty profound quote:

'Forgiveness is giving up hope for a better past.'

[Enabler]

Fian, you seem to sum up best where I am at. I think there are a few things in play.
- Me forgiving her, moving on with my life
- My desire to have clarity about the reality of my past (something she could offer)
- My W knowing that I have forgiven her
- My W being able to forgive herself because in her mind she has done enough to 'make good/better'.

I tend to forgive too easily. My wife tends to expect forgiveness with no cost... on the flip side, my wife does not forgive easily and she expects her pound of flesh (forever), and I am was inclined to do whatever it takes to get said forgiveness for the smallest infringement.

With regards to how that pans out with respect to the divorce, I think if I acted to aggressively reject her apology she may have course to seek vengeance, however, my reaction was just more of a case of someone throwing me something and me making zero effort to catch it, then we both looked at it on the floor. Incidentally the statements about OM and the future were responses to questions I asked, in her mind what she was doing now and what she planned to do in the future had no relation AT ALL to what she had just said to me. The following morning I was pleasant as always to her. I do not harbour resentment, but we BOTH knew that I had not accepted her guilt offering, it was still hers. I act fairly, not aggressively, I act with absolute humility, I'd wash her proverbial feet... but I do not have to bare her guilt and shame.

Luck or spiritual intervention, I'll let you all decide for yourselves, but things have just seemed to slot into place at the perfect time.

[Cat Familiar]

Let's look at these items individually.

- Me forgiving her, moving on with my life
- My desire to have clarity about the reality of my past (something she could offer)
- My W knowing that I have forgiven her
- My W being able to forgive herself because in her mind she has done enough to 'make good/better'.

You're still going to be moving on with your life, whether or not you forgive her.

It's unlikely that she will offer you clarity about "the reality" of your past. She's moved on and to her, your desire to know means you're "stuck in the past." And why would a pwBPD voluntarily expose their dirty laundry?

She may not even care that you've forgiven her.

And it's possible that she's built a mental construct that justifies everything she's done, so there's no need to "forgive herself."

As others have said, forgiveness is for your peace of mind, not for her.

[formflier]

I have forgiven my wife of many things, I have not forgotten them.

Even if I have forgiven an issue I'm very likely to still use that issue to inform my values and boundaries, especially if there is no reconciliation or "false reconciliation" or my wife has chosen to be "unforgiven"...or "unforgiven" me.

Yes...for those scratching my head I have been forgiven, unforgiven (so she can chew me out) and forgiven again.  And she claims all this is Biblical

I say all this to illustrate that "dysfunction" can impact the clearest of Biblical (and non-Biblical) concepts.  I then had to use "boundaries" to understand and think about that forgiveness (in many ways) was for me as much as her (especially if I didn't state to her that I have forgiven her)

Anyway..Enabler you are obviously thinking this through very deeply.  I'm confident that you will figure out a "policy" on how you will move forward on this. 

My hope will be that you will be able to explain it something like this..."Because of my values and the principles I live my life by I choose the follow path, with respect to my wife's affair and it's role in the dissolution of our marriage."

Then unless there is dramatic and sustained change from your wife, leave the above issue as a closed issue.

The same procedure can be used on several other important issues.

Best,

FF

[kells76]

hey again enabler;

FF just mentioned this idea in UBPDHelp's thread:

Essentially there are relationship things to talk about and there is divorce strategy to talk about.  It's important to get the[m] both right.

I'd been thinking about your situation a bit today.

Have you ever started your own business? (bear with me!)

My guess would be that in well-run "I'm my own boss" businesses, there's a firewall between "personal" issues/finances/whatnot and "professional" issues/finances/whatnot. Imagine a dad wearing the suit and tie, as the boss, having to lay off his son, then taking off the tie and giving his son a hug and job hunt help. Maybe contrived, but whatever. There's the "business" side and the "personal" side. I think what I'm getting at is there is a fundamental separation between areas of life.

I'm curious what you would think about spinning off "parenting" into "Enabler Parenting Co, Ltd." Whole different mindset, different communication strategies, different goals. Enabler as CEO of "Coparenting Inc" uses BIFF, keeps it businesslike about scheduling, communicates about kids' medical issues. Enabler as CEO of "Unwinding My Relationship Inc" has different needs, goals, projects, etc. There is no crossover. The fact that there is an unfinished project at "Unwinding My Relationship" has no bearing on the operations of "Coparenting Inc".

It is difficult because some actions seem to spill over between the two businesses (finding other living spaces, whether an adult is already seeing someone romantically or will do so, etc). I'd encourage you to start now in building the firewall between the two parts of your life. The more the projects at "Unwinding" intrude into the business of "Coparenting", the worse it'll be for your "Coparenting" clients (aka your kids) as they don't reap the benefit of your singleminded focus.

Just a thought. As always, you're welcome to come over to Family Law, too!

[AskingWhy]

I am sorry, Enabler, that this is happening.  I know that due to the splitting that BPDs do, they may well have been contrite at the time of the apology, but then show remorse when they split in the opposite direction.

My uBPD H screamed at me earlier in the week (a very nasty comment inferring hitting me) and now expects all to be forgotten and forgiven.  There are some words that do indeed cross the lines.  I can only imagine uBPD H's thoughts if a young man (BF or H) made comments like that to his adult Ds (he has two of them.)

I am so sorry this is happening, Enabler.