The therapy issue

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

H has found a new therapist to try (his 8th). She uses some different approaches to what’s been tried before.

This has brought on anxiety for him. He worries about it not working. He worries about my therapy (though he insists he’d never try to get me to stop). Says he feels guilty because he knows I started up again because of him.

As he often does, he makes comments that indicate he thinks therapy involves bashing of the spouse. That your therapist is your advocate. So if we’re both seeing therapists, they’re essentially working against each other and our relationship will never be fixed.

I told him no “bashing” takes place. My therapist and I don’t discuss anything he and I haven’t discussed or that he doesn’t already know about. And the point of individual therapy is to make us individually stronger, which will improve our relationship. We agreed to resume our twice-weekly relationship talks.

Anyway, the whole conversation made me uncomfortable. He was calm and rational. But it was clear he still feels that if he’s the only one who has problems or has to adjust, it’s not right or fair. True, I guess, but a part of me feels like most of the problems ARE his.

And if we do start couples therapy, as his therapists have suggested, will it hurt more than help? Can I be honest without him getting angry? Will I have trouble getting across the reality of what’s been happening? Same thing for his therapy. I have no clue what he tells his people. But they could be getting a skewed view. Two have told him how important it is that I understand his needs and try to meet them. Understanding them isn’t a problem. I do get it. I just disagree. Or his remedy is something I refuse to do.

[Ozzie101]

H has found a new therapist to try (his 8th). She uses some different approaches to what’s been tried before.

This has brought on anxiety for him. He worries about it not working. He worries about my therapy (though he insists he’d never try to get me to stop). Says he feels guilty because he knows I started up again because of him.

As he often does, he makes comments that indicate he thinks therapy involves bashing of the spouse. That your therapist is your advocate. So if we’re both seeing therapists, they’re essentially working against each other and our relationship will never be fixed.

I told him no “bashing” takes place. My therapist and I don’t discuss anything he and I haven’t discussed or that he doesn’t already know about. And the point of individual therapy is to make us individually stronger, which will improve our relationship. We agreed to resume our twice-weekly relationship talks.

Anyway, the whole conversation made me uncomfortable. He was calm and rational. But it was clear he still feels that if he’s the only one who has problems or has to adjust, it’s not right or fair. True, I guess, but a part of me feels like most of the problems ARE his.

And if we do start couples therapy, as his therapists have suggested, will it hurt more than help? Can I be honest without him getting angry? Will I have trouble getting across the reality of what’s been happening? Same thing for his therapy. I have no clue what he tells his people. But they could be getting a skewed view. Two have told him how important it is that I understand his needs and try to meet them. Understanding them isn’t a problem. I do get it. I just disagree. Or his remedy is something I refuse to do.

[formflier]

I think you should consider if you made and error in answering his "fears".  I do think that suggesting a 4 person conversation (perhaps by phone).

Let him express his questions, let the therapists involved answer those questions. 

On the one hand, you are likely correct..but is it your role to answer questions about the therapists?

Note..I think this is a good thing generally.  Even the couples therapy.  I think it's incredibly important that you dedicate yourself to "staying in your lane".


Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Good point. I hadn’t thought of it that way. I guess I thought I was just telling him what my experience with my therapist was like. Staying in my lane is a good way to put it.

[formflier]

Good point. I hadn’t thought of it that way. I guess I thought I was just telling him what my experience with my therapist was like. Staying in my lane is a good way to put it.

Encourage him.  Perhaps wonder aloud about solutions (even that might be a bit much).

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

So is he bashing you in his therapy sessions? That he's told you two of his therapists have said you need to understand and meet his needs leads me to believe that he is once again complaining about the unquenchable hole in his soul that he believes others are supposed to fill.

And you have no idea what those therapists actually said--you only have his interpretation.

People with personality disorders who are high functioning often are not assessed correctly in a few sessions by therapists. And perhaps when his therapists have caught on, that's when he's dropped them.

You've said previously that he's attended therapy, hoping to be told what to do, rather than encouraged to look within. All that internal rage and shame that people with BPD stuff, hoping never to have to look at it, is contraindicated in therapy. It's not easy for them when they begin to open Pandora's Box.

When my husband began doing therapy, I crossed some ethical barrier. I called his therapist and told him about my theory that my husband has traits of BPD, giving him some behavioral examples. He was very nice and told me he appreciated my call. I told my own therapist that I had done this and she too told me that she would have welcomed hearing that information about a client.

[formflier]

Examples of staying in a lane.

Your hubby wants to discuss what he is learning about himself (probably ok)

Your hubby wants to pass a message about what other people need to change to be better for him (express interest in understanding properly and hear it directly from a T so there is no misunderstanding)

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I don’t know if he’s bashing me. He says he’s not and I’m inclined to believe him. From what he tells me, he doesn’t say a whole lot at all. But I also believe he probably isn’t giving a full picture of things. He has a history of thinking he’s explaining himself well but really not.

I have no idea what his people actually say. I’m curious but also mindful of not prying — especially when I don’t want him finding out everything said in mine.

Once, my therapist did offer to call his to let her know I had said there was verbal abuse going on.

[Ozzie101]

This isn’t therapy but it’s an issue that’s come up that may be me letting him handle himself. Or not. I may be going about it wrong.

SS is driving H crazy today. School is out and SS’s usual summer day care isn’t opening until August. Luckily, H’s job is flexible enough he can work from home and go in occasionally — and can take SS with him. But it’s a lot of kid time and H is already dreading it.

Today, SS was goofing around and H ended up being a little late for a meeting (not a huge deal in this case, but annoying). Just came home boiling because SS was constantly making noises and running around his office, interrupting.

I nodded sympathetically and asked what he planned to do about it. H just sulked and then went upstairs to get away from SS and the dog.

Before, I would have jumped in to try to help move SS along, constantly asked what I could do, offer solutions, felt frustration and irritation on H’s behalf. Now, I’m letting H handle it — SS and his emotions. He’s been clear that he thinks I’m too tough sometimes. He felt like his childhood was too strict so any rules make him bristle for SS. Result? SS rarely has consequences and bad habits that drive H crazy go on unchecked. If he does ask my advice, I give it, but it’s rarely really taken.

So, I’m focusing on my work. I’ll be sympathetic and if I see a crisis, I’ll offer to help. But I feel like H could and should manage his child and his emotions himself.

Or is that being too “hard”?

[ct21218]

I don't think you are being too hard.  It probably feels uncomfortable because you are used to trying to fix things.  Ultimately this is his son and he should provide structure and discipline, you don't need to step in and be the bad guy.  Then H becomes rescuer, and you are the persecutors of his 'victim' son.  Step out of the triangle and let him manage his relationship with his son.

[formflier]

What would "empathetic" and "encouraging" look like (vice sympathy)?

"Rough one babe...you've got this.  I believe in you and will help with stress later" (swat on the butt and a knowing sexual look)?

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Yes, that’s good. Something along those lines: “yikes, that must be tough. I know you can handle it. Want me to help you de-stress tonight?”

Keeping it light.

He tends to get annoyed/bothered when he feels like I’m not helping him so he may get annoyed anyway. But a light tone may help keep things from getting all dark and heavy and turning this into a crisis.

[formflier]

Keeping it light. playful

 

Or do you think "playful" would enrage him?  If you haven't tried it in a while..I would try.  Probably better to shift approaches around as well.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I usually go with a mix of cheerful/playful/understanding. Kind of hard to describe but I think it’s a default setting for me since that’s the way my mom tended to respond to us. That is, when our problem was one she fully believed we could handle for ourselves.

His reaction would depend on how deep into the red level he is. If he’s really dysregulating, it wouldn’t go over well. I’d just have to gauge the situation.

In this case, it seems to have blown over. He spent time upstairs and appears to be in a much better mood. That said, nothing about SS’s behavior has been addressed at all and likely won’t be. But I’m detaching from that because it’s not my role.

[empath]

And if we do start couples therapy, as his therapists have suggested, will it hurt more than help? Can I be honest without him getting angry? Will I have trouble getting across the reality of what’s been happening?

I'm wondering if you've talked with his therapists about their suggestion of couples therapy. Also, you mentioned being concerned about his anger if you are honest...  can you describe what you imagine could happen?

[once removed]

As he often does, he makes comments that indicate he thinks therapy involves bashing of the spouse. That your therapist is your advocate.

quite often, thats how it goes. while i suspect it comes from a place of insecurity, its not an unreasonable perception. im a huge believer in therapy, but if my wife and i (im not married) were having problems and she started going to therapy, id be nervous. id be curious.

True, I guess, but a part of me feels like most of the problems ARE his.

i would (try to) resist this line of thinking as much as possible. why? the problems are part of the marriage. they are your problems, too. improving the marriage is a function of learning to function as a team. you have both done some individual work. a lot of work remains in terms of being on the same team and learning to work together.  

seeing it from that perspective also puts him in a one down, and ultimately unwinnable position, which is why he feels its unfair.

And if we do start couples therapy, as his therapists have suggested, will it hurt more than help? Can I be honest without him getting angry? Will I have trouble getting across the reality of what’s been happening? Same thing for his therapy. I have no clue what he tells his people. But they could be getting a skewed view. Two have told him how important it is that I understand his needs and try to meet them. Understanding them isn’t a problem. I do get it. I just disagree. Or his remedy is something I refuse to do.

doesnt this really speak to the fact that trust is broken down? you dont trust him with his therapist, he doesnt trust you with yours. in that sense, sure, the two of you could be using your therapists in competing ways.

in any marriage, it is essential to understand each others individual needs (his therapists telling him that is basic validation and trust building), as well as the needs of the relationship, and to try to meet them. without that? marriages fail.

its not uncommon for marriage therapy to fail or to make things worse. it happens when either or both parties approach the therapy as a means of fixing the other person, rather than learning to function as a team.

Can I be honest without him getting angry?

both of you have anger, and i think you have both struggled with being honest (i might say "authentic", im not challenging either of your character). can you expect a messy, hurtful process, in the process of trying to learn to function as a team? almost certainly.

Will I have trouble getting across the reality of what’s been happening?

theres a lot to this question, i think.

the first goes back to my point about using a marriage therapist to fix the other person. there are at least three realities: how you see it, how he sees it, how an impartial therapist will see it. if you approach marriage therapy with an attitude of making your husband and the therapist accept yours, you will run into trouble.

the second is a rhetorical question. ozzie, it seems to me that underlying your feelings are significant anger and resentment. a great deal of it at your husband. i sense though, that it isnt only at him, but at yourself, and at other loved ones. so the question would be: will you?

[Enabler]

My experience of my own T and what I have gleaned about my W's experience of T is this...

There is a period (indefinite), where T allows you to tell them your fantasy (your version of how things are). They will likely sound supportive of your reality to build trust and gain understanding... and to establish a sense of the holes in your thought process. For example, if you went into a T's office and started bashing your partner, they would likely allow this for some time, validate that feeling/truth.

At some point, they will challenge the fantasy. Often, they will look to see how much power there is in the fantasy and look for it running out of steam. The fantasy will likely either be too focused on someone else, or too focused on themselves. The client may show unwillingness to challenge their own fantasy i.e. stop focusing on other or themselves, and this maybe a sign that the T needs to continue a little longer building confidence OR that the issues are deeper than their capability to 'crack the proverbial nut' and the client is protecting each layer of the onion.

All too often clients stop going to T once the initial validation period has finished and T directs them to themselves or others, or, never progress to the second stage of self actualisation and continue to cover old ground. I am not sure because it has only been explained as "we came to a natural conclusion" that my W's T moved from validating her victimhood to challenging that mindset at which point my W decided to cease therapy as it threatened layers of her emotional onion. It strikes me that your H's and his T may well be still in the first stages of T where he is being validated and trust is being built. She will eventually find a crack (if she can), he will either ditch her (previous form) or allow his twisted thinking to be challenged.

Enabler

[Ozzie101]

Very good points and questions, once. You’re so right. I need to really be careful about certain ways of thinking. No, this shouldn’t all be about fixing him. I have my own faults and flaws that need to be addressed as well. Absolutely.

I think where I tend to get anxious is that, while I’m open to constructive criticism and making healthy changes, there was such a history of verbal/emotional abuse and unhealthy demands that I can get defensive. Or, I get confused, trying in the moment to sort out what’s reasonable and what isn’t. I still struggle there.

With each other’s needs, I think where I get bothered there is that for so long, I was focused almost solely on his needs, even at the expense of my own — then being accused of not thinking of him. So when I hear things from his therapist, alarm bells go off for me. I do pay attention to his needs still. And I do understand what he’s telling me much of the time. I’m just not always willing to do exactly what he says he wants or needs. But I’m willing to meet him part-way.

I do have anger and resentment, much of it left over from things that happened over a year ago. I don’t trust him, as when he’s in certain emotional states he lies. And I struggle with trusting my own judgment. I fell for him. I didn’t see abuse for what it was, blaming myself and allowing him to convince me to take steps that could have (or did) separates me from friends and family.

When I make references to what happened before and any residual hurt or fear I have, he gets very defensive and angry. Feels like I should be over it and he shouldn’t have to spend the rest of his life apologizing. No, he shouldn’t. But I should be allowed to work through things too. Maybe MC could be helpful there.

Here’s what I worry about about the full story: when I went with him to a therapy session over a year ago (when things were pretty bad) it did not go well. The therapist asked me a lot of questions. I answered. He was very angry later and felt attacked. Thing is, I was holding way back. So if I can sugarcoat and still end up with him blowing up at me, what would happen if I told my truth without the paint job? (While fully aware that his version will be different. But then, as I’ve said, he has blackouts where he can’t at all remember what he said or did.)

[Ozzie101]

Yes, Enabler, that has been presented as a possibility with my H. Could be truth in it. He’ll be the first to tell you he doesn’t take constructive criticism or any kind of challenge well.

One of the things I value a lot about my T is she makes a great devil’s advocate. And as someone who has dealt with some similar issues as H, she can be very helpful to me in gaining a new perspective.

H’s problems with therapy have had different roots. At one time, he believed therapy was about learning how to get other people in your life in line. (Not sure that way of thinking has stopped.) More recently, it’s been wanting a therapist who will tell him what to do. Because that’s not generally how it works, he’s been unsatisfied.

[Enabler]

At one time, he believed therapy was about learning how to get other people in your life in line. (Not sure that way of thinking has stopped.) More recently, it’s been wanting a therapist who will tell him what to do. Because that’s not generally how it works, he’s been unsatisfied.

Both modes are roots to working around his issues rather than working towards a solution to tackling the issue and resolving it. How do I cook with a rotten onion rather than cut out the rotten bit.

[Ozzie101]

H’s focus tends to be on getting other people to do what he wants or to change. Then he obsessed over who has to change (or change more). One of his big complaints with my family has been that he’s had to do all the adjusting to fit them. That’s not actually true. There have been changes and adjustments on their part. Has he had to do more? Most likely. Often, such things are skewed a bit against the new person.  But it’s not always going to be 50-50. In our marriage, I’d argue I had to adjust a LOT to moving into his house with his child and dogs. But that’s part of relationships, as far as I can see. Hopefully, over time, it all evens out, everyone gives and gets and you end up with a new family. Keeping meticulous score doesn’t seem to me to be very healthy.

So, with the therapy, I get more skeptical at some of his comments just going by his history. He has a history of wanting people to give in to him, give him what he needs or wants, fix his problems for him. And if you won’t, he’ll be angry about it. I will say, though, that eventually he cools down and sometimes sees that there’s a difference between can’t and won’t— or that his request may not have been reasonable. But that can take years.

[Enabler]

He has been trained (inadvertently) by others that this works. All those left in his life either don't have a choice, or have chosen to stay and chosen to change... it works. I know we make comparisons to children a lot on the boards but I'm going to make another one... if a child wants a lolly but isn't allowed one, and throws a tantrum and gets one... tantrums work. Most people don't love conflict, even the most healthy people reach a tolerance for conflict and will walk away... he 'wins'.

You can see what happens when you just stand still though...

[Ozzie101]

Very true.

For a long time I was someone who scurried around trying to fix things for him and trying to satisfy everything he wanted or thought he needed. I no longer do that. (Or at least not as much.) and I don’t want to get sucked into that again.

I don’t want to get caught in unhealthy thinking. I don’t want to indulge in too much “it’s all him” attitudes. Because this is a partnership and I need to see and own my own role in it. That’s the only way progress can be made and a healthy relationship achieved.

My lingering anger and resentment need to be dealt with. I haven’t yet found a way to work through that with him, though, because he feels guilty/defensive/attacked. So, that’s part of my therapy goal.

[Enabler]

My lingering anger and resentment need to be dealt with. I haven’t yet found a way to work through that with him, though, because he feels guilty/defensive/attacked. So, that’s part of my therapy goal.

Does it need to be worked through WITH him? Yes in an ideal world, but not necessarily. You can choose to 'put it down'.

[Ozzie101]

No, it doesn’t really. But that comes back to the therapy issue. He feels threatened that I go and may not tell him everything. So he goes into interrogation mode. Any vagueness and he gets nervous. Even if I tell him I’m working on things that have nothing to do with him. Or if I say I work on things to help us, he feels threatened and says we should be able to work on everything together.

[once removed]

do you identify anger as a "bad" emotion? in general?

[Ozzie101]

No. I think of it as natural — and usually a secondary emotion. Often it’s rooted in something like hurt or fear or sadness. Now, behaviors and words that come about through anger, though, can be bad.

[formflier]

we should be able to work on everything together.

So...have you ever asked him what this is based on?

FF

[once removed]

No. I think of it as natural — and usually a secondary emotion. Often it’s rooted in something like hurt or fear or sadness. Now, behaviors and words that come about through anger, though, can be bad.

He was very angry later and felt attacked. Thing is, I was holding way back. So if I can sugarcoat and still end up with him blowing up at me, what would happen if I told my truth without the paint job? (While fully aware that his version will be different. But then, as I’ve said, he has blackouts where he can’t at all remember what he said or did.)

okay. the reason i asked was both about him and you.

it seems like, and correct me if im wrong, you fear your husbands anger (understandable), and repress your own. and it sounds to me like if your anger really came out, he wouldnt even know what hit him.

you wouldnt want to just lay into him in marriage counseling, no. but you would want everyones anger on the table and worked through.

you should prepare for the idea that he will feel attacked and angry.

people with bpd traits have difficulty in this area. anger at them is generally something that takes them aback, and is something to be defensive about. i remember when i really cut loose on my ex, she was shocked, as if id never hinted, or even outright said those things.

you should, as much as possible, prepare to live with the idea that he will feel attacked and angry. likewise, ideally, he needs to come to terms with the fact that you have felt attacked and angry.

[Ozzie101]

You’re very right. I do fear his anger. In addition to everything that’s happened, his anger is very, very intense and intimidating. Then throw in traces of paranoia, not making sense, etc.

And I do repress my anger, though some has come out in some of our arguments in the last few months. I don’t like it because I don’t like to yell. I’m still holding back but there have been minor eruptions. I’m aware, though, that repressing isn’t fully healthy either.

Yes, we would both need to be prepared for what to expect and what emotions would come from it.

[Cat Familiar]

I’ve always kept a governor on my anger, whether it was with my BPD mother, my BPD/NPD first husband, or now with my current husband who has BPD traits.

What has kept my anger in check after I became an adult, is the awareness that as a woman, I’m seriously outweighed and have less upper body strength than men.

In the case of my first husband, if I would have intentionally triggered his anger in response to mine, my life would have been in jeopardy, and I’m not saying this lightly.

With my current husband, it’s been a number of years since I’ve seen a huge dysregulation, and he would be more likely to be self injuring than risking my safety.

Nevertheless, I believe it’s wise to be very mindful of consequences should you disclose your depth of anger in therapy. Emotions don’t stop once the hour long therapy session ends.