Online Legal Forum and Spousal Support Part 2

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is located here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344579.0;all
Just a little update...I put in on a couple of other threads.

H brought up terms of divorce, alimony, child support, custody. Discussed a few things. Need a lawyer and have narrowed to two I plan to speak with. Was hesitating because I didn’t want him to catch wind of it. But, I feel like I can move forward without that concern. It is fresh so I want to give it time, especially I don’t want to rile him while we’re still stuck at home.

Just a quick FYI...Avvo was a good resource. Got helpful responses, obviously no specifics, but a couple understood my questions well and even read between the lines and gave long, thoughtful replies.

Expertlaw was also helpful,  but I did get reamed for saying high conflict and suspected mood disorder. I completely understand I’m not qualified and in divorce they don’t care, but was hoping to know how to determine if an attorney has experience with this dynamic. I got a stern response by one member. Kind of wondered if that had been his issue in his divorce and he was sensitive. It wasn’t for my education, which is why I was there. It was an admonishment.  I reread my question and I only said “potential high conflict divorce” once and “suspected mood disorder” once. I did give some examples such as breaking things and rage texts, but I would argue those support high conflict and an actual mood disorder, and I presented more gently. Idk, just sharing my experience in case others are searching for resources. I did get a couple of responses that were mildly helpful.

Thanks all!

[UBPDHelp]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is located here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344579.0;all
Just a little update...I put in on a couple of other threads.

H brought up terms of divorce, alimony, child support, custody. Discussed a few things. Need a lawyer and have narrowed to two I plan to speak with. Was hesitating because I didn’t want him to catch wind of it. But, I feel like I can move forward without that concern. It is fresh so I want to give it time, especially I don’t want to rile him while we’re still stuck at home.

Just a quick FYI...Avvo was a good resource. Got helpful responses, obviously no specifics, but a couple understood my questions well and even read between the lines and gave long, thoughtful replies.

Expertlaw was also helpful,  but I did get reamed for saying high conflict and suspected mood disorder. I completely understand I’m not qualified and in divorce they don’t care, but was hoping to know how to determine if an attorney has experience with this dynamic. I got a stern response by one member. Kind of wondered if that had been his issue in his divorce and he was sensitive. It wasn’t for my education, which is why I was there. It was an admonishment.  I reread my question and I only said “potential high conflict divorce” once and “suspected mood disorder” once. I did give some examples such as breaking things and rage texts, but I would argue those support high conflict and an actual mood disorder, and I presented more gently. Idk, just sharing my experience in case others are searching for resources. I did get a couple of responses that were mildly helpful.

Thanks all!

[PeteWitsend]

...
H brought up terms of divorce, alimony, child support, custody. Discussed a few things. Need a lawyer and have narrowed to two I plan to speak with. Was hesitating because I didn’t want him to catch wind of it. But, I feel like I can move forward without that concern. It is fresh so I want to give it time, especially I don’t want to rile him while we’re still stuck at home.
...

Sounds like he's already been preparing for this, which is not great. 

If you're in a smaller town/county, I would be somewhat concerned he may already have relationships with judges which could unduly bias them against you.  Though, ultimately, if you get a result close to what you are entitled to at law, or close to what you want, it doesn't matter.  I would discuss this concern with your attorney.

It helped me during my divorce proceedings to focus on material results, and not get dragged into he said/she said nonsense.  For one thing: the court doesn't care; they see dozens of divorces a month, and are largely jaded and focused on getting through them as quickly as possible.  For another, fighting in court mainly benefits the lawyers.  There may be issues that are worth fighting over, but you need to consider the likelihood of success, and also whether the cause is worth the bloodshed (so to speak).

Also, you don't need to win every battle, and you don't need to try to get everything right away. 

[ForeverDad]

Expertlaw was also helpful,  but I did get reamed for saying high conflict and suspected mood disorder. I completely understand I’m not qualified and in divorce they don’t care, but was hoping to know how to determine if an attorney has experience with this dynamic. I got a stern response by one member. Kind of wondered if that had been his issue in his divorce and he was sensitive. It wasn’t for my education, which is why I was there. It was an admonishment.  I reread my question and I only said “potential high conflict divorce” once and “suspected mood disorder” once. I did give some examples such as breaking things and rage texts, but I would argue those support high conflict and an actual mood disorder, and I presented more gently.

Courts claim ignorance of psychological matters.  Lawyers claim they aren't psychologists.  Each professional group has it's own area of expertise, so to speak, it's fiefdom.  Court is the supreme arbitrator but depends on the lawyers, children's agencies, police, doctors, psychologists, counselors, etc to provide input.

That's likely the reason you got that pushback by those attorneys about whether you are capable to speculate on whether your spouse has a serious disorder or whatever.  In effect, they are saying you can't "play doctor" if you haven't the training.  Sadly, your years of experience — living with the person for years — is discounted virtually as hearsay which is often ignored.

I recall that my lawyer, over the course of 8 years in and out of court, two years in divorce and 6 post-divorce, listened to my descriptions about Borderline or Paranoid PDs but he never repeated them.  He frequently called her "crazy", but when quite peeved he used "F-ing Nuts!" and once a "sociopath" who could lie and pass a lie detector.  It's so frustrating but once you detect that pushback then start focusing on the behaviors and actions.

Counselors and psychologists (some may function as Guardian ad Litem - GAL - and custody evaluators) are more likely to be aware of PDs but with them too you may seem more like "armchair experts" not qualified to diagnose.  Sadly, you will find that some are more experienced than others, just as some lawyers are more experienced than others.

Let me expound on my conclusion about whether the disordered spouse knows what he/she has said or done.  I said it doesn't matter, it just is.  I believe at some level the person has to be aware of what he/she has done.  How so?  The fact that they can spin narratives to explain away or deny the behaviors or actions in itself reveals there is some level of awareness of that event.  Whether it is dissociation or what we often refer to as Denial... does it matter?  Courts largely ignore, if they can, the mental state of the parties getting divorced and focus on the documented behaviors and actions, therefore we would do well to do the same.

It helped me during my divorce proceedings to focus on material results, and not get dragged into he said/she said nonsense.  For one thing: the court doesn't care...  For another, fighting in court mainly benefits the lawyers.  There may be issues that are worth fighting over, but you need to consider the likelihood of success, and also whether the cause is worth the bloodshed (so to speak).

Also, you don't need to win every battle, and you don't need to try to get everything right away.

Claims of "he always..." or "She always..." can be heard and discounted as vague hearsay.  Courts pay attention to documentation.  Do the same.

I recall at one divorce hearing I gave my lawyer a list of 11 items on 3 pages of ongoing issues, neatly typed and described.  I made the mistake of grouping them by topic.  We covered only the first 3 items and then our hearing halted when the allotted time ended.  I should have listed them by priority.

My lawyer often said "that's not important".  Ponder the issues.  Is it urgent?  Does it have short term or long term ramifications?  Which are more crucial to a decent outcome?  Choose your battles.

What is especially important from the start, especially for the fathers here who often see the mothers getting default preference due to gender, is to get the best custody and parenting time possible, starting with the court's initial temp order.  They're called "temporary" but in our cases can span a year or two.  I recall my lawyer telling me, "Shh, we'll fix it later."  Later turned out to be two years later in the final decree.

[UBPDHelp]

Sounds like he's already been preparing for this, which is not great.

Yes, both personally and professionally. He is a L.  I’ve tried to stay away from openly stating as I fear exposure if he were to find this site.  

If you're in a smaller town/county, I would be somewhat concerned he may already have relationships with judges which could unduly bias them against you.

He does. I’m not sure which way it sways. But he is charming.

Though, ultimately, if you get a result close to what you are entitled to at law, or close to what you want, it doesn't matter.  I would discuss this concern with your attorney.

Good point. He’s made this threat so many times and even has minimally thrown out giving me all the money (there is none except income) and custody, but he always backs away. Usually it’s been me trying to save the marriage — I honestly don’t know why, I suppose plain and simple fear. But it’s too much. What am I saving it for?  More of this? 

I think I can be reasonable. We agreed I would be home with kids (he was the one who wanted me to, I acquiesced).  I want alimony. Half the length of marriage gets me close to retirement. I want child support and primary custody. I will split belongings. He can have them all if he wants to fight about it. I would just want my kids’ things at that point.

I would want family photos and some holiday decorations (we can pick every other one). I assume I don’t have to negotiate my clothing and jewelry?  But, I’d want that.

It helped me during my divorce proceedings to focus on material results, and not get dragged into he said/she said nonsense.  For one thing: the court doesn't care; they see dozens of divorces a month, and are largely jaded and focused on getting through them as quickly as possible.  For another, fighting in court mainly benefits the lawyers.  There may be issues that are worth fighting over, but you need to consider the likelihood of success, and also whether the cause is worth the bloodshed (so to speak).

Also, you don't need to win every battle, and you don't need to try to get everything right away. 

Thank you Pete. I don’t even want to focus on it, but I feel like they should be aware.

I also have some concern about finances. A lot of bad decisions we made. And, many times I believed him when I balked at a vacation (money should have paid bills) and he “needed” it so he could keep working and make money. But then he would “forget” and when he made more money, it would be for the next “void filler”. I managed juggling for a long time, but eventually it all was too much. Even so, I was making real strides to get back on track with an ETA by the fall and then pandemic hit and he stopped working. Almost three months and no meaningful income (about 10%). But the tangled financial web is not well documented as so much was constantly changing. Of the 10% income he had the past three months, he bought an expensive piece of memorabilia. Not food, or electricity or car.

Anyway, I’m not interested in hurting him, but I do fear him laying blame on me. And I want to know the attorney is able to handle a HCP.

Was there something that told you that your attorney could?

H is charming, so I don’t want the attorney to be fooled.

I’m pulling all suggestions here and some specific I have and may bounce back for feedback on the compiled list.

Thanks so much!

[UBPDHelp]

Courts claim ignorance of psychological matters.  Lawyers claim they aren't psychologists.  Each professional group has it's own area of expertise, so to speak, it's fiefdom.  Court is the supreme arbitrator but depends on the lawyers, children's agencies, police, doctors, psychologists, counselors, etc to provide input.

That's likely the reason you got that pushback by those attorneys about whether you are capable to speculate on whether your spouse has a serious disorder or whatever.  In effect, they are saying you can't "play doctor" if you haven't the training.  Sadly, your years of experience — living with the person for years — is discounted virtually as hearsay which is often ignored.

Agree.  I’m not sure these were lawyers and only one got ruffled. (Avvo was definitely lawyers and they didn’t get caught up in HCP, but didn’t really address either). Here was my reply...

Hi Xxxx,

You are correct. I am not qualified. I have just been on the receiving end of rage texts that lasted for days/weeks. Other family members have seen it and received it. My believes it is what I’m dealing with.

He has thrown things and broken things purposefully and willfully and then either doesn’t remember why or gaslights the story.

Again, I am NOT looking to disparage him. I’ve been told that this won’t matter in a divorce, BUT the fact is that these are things I’m dealing with and I need to understand how to handle divorce when dealing with a high-conflict person. I understand that the courts may not/will not even entertain these stories, but it does distinctly impact my approach.

I do not mean to offend. I have been married to him for 26 years and have seen the shift from where we started to where we are. I researched why and found Stop Walking on Eggshells, which profoundly described what I was living with. I have worked on MY communication and validating and empathy and not justifying/defending or explaining as those trigger him (and a lot of people with personality disorders - story after story of exact behaviors). This was all done to make ME a better partner and try to heal the relationship. I have spent countless hours working on me and us.

So, while I don’t have an advanced degree in psychology, I entered my research with profound hope to fix. I do not want to bury him, the father of my children. What I want often doesn’t come into play. Reality is that something is happening with him. His partner sees it, his friends, his family.

But ultimately I know I can’t “use” this undiagnosed diagnosis in court, but I am very much living with it and i will have to consider it when proceeding.

I recall that my lawyer, over the course of 8 years in and out of court, two years in divorce and 6 post-divorce, listened to my descriptions about Borderline or Paranoid PDs but he never repeated them.  He frequently called her "crazy", but when quite peeved he used "F-ing Nuts!" and once a "sociopath" who could lie and pass a lie detector.  It's so frustrating but once you detect that pushback then start focusing on the behaviors and actions.

This is both disheartening and encouraging. I just want financial support, safeguards for my children and to be left alone free of verbal assaults. I am who I am. I try to be a good person. I do annoying things sometimes. I don’t mean to, but I’m not everyone’s cup of tea. Who is? But I am loyal and compassionate and fun. I am just over trying to prove my worth to someone who doesn’t see it.

It’s okay if what he wants in a partner has changed and I no longer work for him. He could graciously just leave and fulfill his obligations.

Counselors and psychologists (some may function as Guardian ad Litem - GAL - and custody evaluators) are more likely to be aware of PDs but with them too you may seem more like "armchair experts" not qualified to diagnose.  Sadly, you will find that some are more experienced than others, just as some lawyers are more experienced than others.

H has worked with GALs many times. I should probably find the one he destroyed (personally) in court. But they may all be conflicted out. Idk if that happens with GALs.

Let me expound on my conclusion about whether the disordered spouse knows what he/she has said or done.  I said it doesn't matter, it just is.  I believe at some level the person has to be aware of what he/she has done.  How so?  The fact that they can spin narratives to explain away or deny the behaviors or actions in itself reveals there is some level of awareness of that event.  Whether it is dissociation or what we often refer to as Denial... does it matter?  Courts largely ignore, if they can, the mental state of the parties getting divorced and focus on the documented behaviors and actions, therefore we would do well to do the same.

100% agree. I think it is protective forgetfulness. He couldn’t live with himself if he acknowledged what he’s said/done. But, then how in some instances, usually a bigger audience, he can refrain from said behavior?  Because he knows it’s wrong.

Claims of "he always..." or "She always..." can be heard and discounted as vague hearsay.  Courts pay attention to documentation.  Do the same.

What kind of documentation?  Are you talking about finances, house or to his behavior?

I have copies of the outrageous text messages he’s sent me. I have pictures of the recent outbursts breaking things and throwing things. My kids can attest to the behavior BUT I will never let them say because it would destroy their relationships with him. I do worry if I’m not the punching bag, they could become. But, I’d like to think not. Will definitely watch for that and fight visitation if it does.

I recall at one divorce hearing I gave my lawyer a list of 11 items on 3 pages of ongoing issues, neatly typed and described.  I made the mistake of grouping them by topic.  We covered only the first 3 items and then our hearing halted when the allotted time ended.  I should have listed them by priority.

Good point! I think that’s a ubiquitous possibility and imperative to know!

My lawyer often said "that's not important".  Ponder the issues.  Is it urgent?  Does it have short term or long term ramifications?  Which are more crucial to a decent outcome?  Choose your battles.

Deep breath. I don’t want much. Finances I’m entitled to. Primary custody. I have done 95% of kid stuff. Just is.

What is especially important from the start, especially for the fathers here who often see the mothers getting default preference due to gender, is to get the best custody and parenting time possible, starting with the court's initial temp order.  They're called "temporary" but in our cases can span a year or two.  I recall my lawyer telling me, "Shh, we'll fix it later."  Later turned out to be two years later in the final decree.

I hear you. My second kid had two friends, one mother started an affair with the others father. Blew up in spectacular fashion. The cheating mom was a disaster and would forget to pick up the young kids from practice or even get them up for school some days (she was a drinker). I used to go grab kid’s friend and drop them off. And rescue the siblings who got left behind. Sad.  The father ended up getting primary custody. It was mostly too late for friend and she went for help all through high school. Siblings were younger and fared better.

Adulterers remained together but she was arrested for brawling with police after being rebuffed by a 25 yo bartender she was hitting on. He cut her off and called police when she became belligerent. Spectacular fashion.

Anyway, I know it often defaults in the moms favor, but definitely not always the right choice. In my case I wholly believe it is and will fight for it for sure.

Thanks ForeverDad.

Would you share the text messages and photos with the attorney?

I have no where to go at this point. My credit is poor (working on this) and currently unemployed, but actively looking/applying/interviewing.

[kells76]

Hi UBPDHelp;

I would just want my kids’ things at that point... I would want family photos and some holiday decorations (we can pick every other one). I assume I don’t have to negotiate my clothing and jewelry?  But, I’d want that.

So, let's not let "fairness" and "reasonableness" hamstring you here.

What if right now, you started putting some stuff in totes or boxes that you truly wanted? Would he even notice?

What if you did the "let's put everything in a pile and take turns" method. Play it out mentally. Let's say there is some item or decoration that you both "want". He senses you "want" it. Does he "want" it because it's sentimental to him, and he treasures the memories it brings up? Or, does he "want" it and turn it into a battleground because he senses its importance to you?

You're the rational one here. That's just how it is. Of the two of you, you will be the one to be the "rational leader". In the story of King Solomon and the two "moms" each claiming "that's my baby", you'd be the mom saying "if the choice is between cutting the baby in half to be fair, or giving it to her, I'll give my baby to her". Your H can't do that.

I'd encourage you to minimize future battles by quietly acting now to preserve mementos and items that are truly dear to you. As the rational one, you'll know if it's something that your H would also treasure, or would only fight for just to fight. In a sense, you'll have to take both of you guys' turns for both of you -- not just taking your turn and waiting for H to rationally take his turn, if that makes sense.

Now... where could you store those totes/boxes that would be safe?

It's OK for you to pick out stuff ahead of time. Really, it is. You can also think of this method as "removing a conflict from H's plate" as it were. He doesn't deal well with conflict, so, by picking out and storing stuff ahead of time, on your own, it's more a win win.

Hope this helps minimize conflict, and allows you to focus your energies where they will have the most impact.

kells76

[GaGrl]

You said that alimony would get you close to retirement. What does your and your husband's retirement accounts look like? Do you have your own, and is it funded comparable to his? This is another financial negotiation point. You can get a portion of his retirement account transferred to you.

I have had several friends negotiate taking the equity in the house in exchange for not taking a portion of the other spouse's 401k.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi UBPDHelp;

So, let's not let "fairness" and "reasonableness" hamstring you here.

It’s interesting, I would be fair and reasonable to be done. I went back, per an attorneys advice on Avvo, and pulled the average income over the last five years. He made a lot. We were paying off some large bills and college so may be somewhat slanted against him. But if I take off the high and low, the average still stays pretty close.

So, now I want as much as I’m entitled to. I made a lot of sacrifices staying home with the kids, including not being very marketable due to both skill and age.

What if right now, you started putting some stuff in totes or boxes that you truly wanted? Would he even notice?

Absolutely true. Wouldn’t notice. I’m working on a list (hard to “do” right now as everyone is home 24/7), and looked up storage facilities. Maybe a PO Box so I have somewhere for the bills to go.

What if you did the "let's put everything in a pile and take turns" method. Play it out mentally. Let's say there is some item or decoration that you both "want". He senses you "want" it. Does he "want" it because it's sentimental to him, and he treasures the memories it brings up? Or, does he "want" it and turn it into a battleground because he senses its importance to you?

You're the rational one here. That's just how it is. Of the two of you, you will be the one to be the "rational leader". In the story of King Solomon and the two "moms" each claiming "that's my baby", you'd be the mom saying "if the choice is between cutting the baby in half to be fair, or giving it to her, I'll give my baby to her". Your H can't do that.

So true.

I'd encourage you to minimize future battles by quietly acting now to preserve mementos and items that are truly dear to you. As the rational one, you'll know if it's something that your H would also treasure, or would only fight for just to fight. In a sense, you'll have to take both of you guys' turns for both of you -- not just taking your turn and waiting for H to rationally take his turn, if that makes sense.

Now... where could you store those totes/boxes that would be safe?

100%. I will be fair but he would fight because he knew it mattered to me. I’m working on it!  Such a great point.

It's OK for you to pick out stuff ahead of time. Really, it is. You can also think of this method as "removing a conflict from H's plate" as it were. He doesn't deal well with conflict, so, by picking out and storing stuff ahead of time, on your own, it's more a win win.

Hope this helps minimize conflict, and allows you to focus your energies where they will have the most impact.

Thank you for help reframing this. I do think it would be less conflict. There are kid things that matter to me and I would be devastated if anything happened to them. He wouldn’t care but might try to use.

But his family gave us a set of china and my family a different set. That seems like he could take from his and I from mine. May sell, throw out, donate or keep. That seems easy.

Other stuff harder, but I’ll do legwork.

Thank you for the suggestion. It is good!

[UBPDHelp]

You said that alimony would get you close to retirement. What does your and your husband's retirement accounts look like? Do you have your own, and is it funded comparable to his? This is another financial negotiation point. You can get a portion of his retirement account transferred to you.

I have had several friends negotiate taking the equity in the house in exchange for not taking a portion of the other spouse's 401k.

Thanks GaGrl. No retirement accounts, which has been a point of contention. I am worried about future and he says he’ll never retire. I have saved some and have a small inheritance. I’ve figured out a budget to put more away for the next 15-17 years and worst case could have a new house paid off and enough cash in the bank to live minimally. Presumably there would be some ss, half of his may be more than all of mine. He doesn’t get to choose, I get half after 10 years of marriage.

I’m okay making sacrifices now to not have to worry so much in the future. Another reason for considering divorce because he lives financially on the edge all of the time. It is stressful.

He said I could have the equity. Not sure how much there will be. I would split it but we’ll see how everything else goes.

Thank you for sharing your insight. So helpful!

[UBPDHelp]

Hi all, I wanted to bounce back to something kells said...

You're the rational one here. That's just how it is. Of the two of you, you will be the one to be the "rational leader". In the story of King Solomon and the two "moms" each claiming "that's my baby", you'd be the mom saying "if the choice is between cutting the baby in half to be fair, or giving it to her, I'll give my baby to her". Your H can't do that.

I’m in a perplexed/concerned state here.

100% I would do what’s best for my kids, and yet, I have failed them so miserably to this point. Why did I think he would change or life could go back to normal?

So I’m reading Splitting and I’m concerned I could be accused of parental alienation.

I tell my kids, who are confused, that their dad loves them but can’t always show it the way they want or need (he buys them stuff or does outrageously expensive things with them).  Our youngest has no idea that anything is truly amiss. Asks where dad is (day 3 of dad disappearing, sometimes in the same house) or why he’s not eating with us again. I get by with saying dad isn’t feeling well. Youngest accepts this, but it’s happening so frequently I see a bit of confusion in those beautiful little eyes and my heart breaks.

But, my older three have seen first hand many of his rages. He controls the sexual content ones in front of them, meaning those are just to me. But he will belittle me or call me derogatory names in front of them. I’ve learned to state my boundary and leave if needed. But they still witness. So I’ve tried to make them understand in very basic terms, mostly to abate their confusion. I always end that I don’t want them to take a stand (no good for them with him), they should maintain their relationship and that he does love them even if it’s not exact.

But, they have also been the target of some weird things too and were faster to see he has a problem and mostly would rather not deal with him.  I urge them to for the time being maintain a pleasant relationship but absolutely don’t want them dragged in anymore because I don’t want him to turn his focus on them.

How do I help them without crossing a boundary?  I’m guilty of gaging H’s temperature with the older two. Self protection but realize now that was damaging to them and I feel terrible now.

Any help would be appreciated...thank you.

[ForeverDad]

He said I could have the equity. Not sure how much there will be. I would split it but we’ll see how everything else goes.

You still have a tendency toward fairness.  That's a good quality, that's a trait just about all members here share.  But when dealing with someone more likely to be triggered, rant, whatever and less likely to be fair... you have to limit your sense of fairness.  Think of unwinding a merger.  Be businesslike, not so much sentimental.

Later, once the pressure of ending the marriage is over, then you can think about what you can Gift Away.  Right now you don't know what your financial situation will be five or ten years into the future.

The economic outlook is not good now.  Some have said the world is so indebted that the bubbles were looking for pins to burst them and along came this virus surprising us all.  It may get much worse before it gets better.  It's probably not wise to be too magnanimous.

[UBPDHelp]

You still have a tendency toward fairness.  That's a good quality, that's a trait just about all members here share.  But when dealing with someone more likely to be triggered, rant, whatever and less likely to be fair... you have to limit your sense of fairness.  Think of unwinding a merger.  Be businesslike, not so much sentimental.

Later, once the pressure of ending the marriage is over, then you can think about what you can Gift Away.  Right now you don't know what your financial situation will be five or ten years into the future.

The economic outlook is not good now.  Some have said the world is so indebted that the bubbles were looking for pins to burst them and along came this virus surprising us all.  It may get much worse before it gets better.  It's probably not wise to be too magnanimous.

Thanks ForeverDad. You are a voice of reason. I probably should take as much as I can get when I can get it. Definitely a scary time!  I also am actively looking for a job (since just before pandemic, two pre-covid offers became non-starters when everything shut down, ugh).

I’ve pulled numbers from last five years. He had one year that was much higher, so I even did a scenario dropping the highest and the lowest to see the difference. Mine has stayed mostly the same and about 10-15% of his.

Any idea what covid might do to the standard calculations?  He’s a L and I expect there will be business when we open up.  Just don’t know how reliable calculators are now?  Cut by 50%?

I know no one knows, but curious if anyone has thoughts on this.

Made it half way through Splitting when rest of family started getting up. Feel terrified and empowered. Will finish tonight and then probably read 10 more times!

Thanks for the help!

[livednlearned]

I’m concerned I could be accused of parental alienation.

He's already made a lot of accusations. He'll probably make more.  

Just because he says you have six bananas growing out of your head doesn't mean you do.

Your husband's rational mind may work just fine with clients who don't emotionally trigger him. But once his emotions start to fire, which they will when going through his own divorce, his rational mind will go offline and something else will take its place. The same thing you experience in the home will start to make more public appearances. The more narcissistic he is, the more he may seem to be in control, while at the same time, doing and saying things that don't make sense, especially for a lawyer. At least that was my experience.

Becoming irrational and emotional can happen to us, too, the non-BPD spouse. Except for many of us, we return to baseline much quicker, which makes it a little easier to access the problem solving part of our brains.

That's why it can be really helpful to propose a solution when your ex makes an accusation that has no basis in reality. One that is so reasonable he cannot turn it down without looking strange.

This is just an example, there are many other ways to structure this: If your ex alleges parental alienation, recommend he do family therapy with the kids to help repair their relationship. Give him a list of three therapists (that you have pre-vetted) and have him select one by day/date. Have him lead. He needs to call and make the appointments, participate in the orientation, bring the kids, attend the sessions.

If he is BPD, he won't follow through because the solution creates a bigger problem for what's really happening, which is a staggering deficit of accountability for his own behaviors.

I tell my kids, who are confused, that their dad loves them but can’t always show it the way they want or need (he buys them stuff or does outrageously expensive things with them).

 

One thing I learned from friends here, and from my own therapy, is that it's not our place to say what someone else feels. Even if it's the other parent. If we say, "This mean guy who verbally abuses you actually loves you" then we conflate in our kids' minds that this abusive behavior is love.

Instead, I learned to say some version of, "How do you feel about that?" It may at first seem like it's going to make things worse but in my experience it allows kids to experience meaningful and genuine connection, especially when you are actively listening and bearing witness to what they feel. Bessel van der Kolk, a researcher and author who studies trauma, writes that trauma occurs when your reality is not allowed to be seen or known. When we ask our kids how they feel we are allowing them to be seen and known.

Our youngest has no idea that anything is truly amiss. Asks where dad is (day 3 of dad disappearing, sometimes in the same house) or why he’s not eating with us again. I get by with saying dad isn’t feeling well.

This is so hard for me to read. It's so similar to what happened in our home. I'm so sorry you and your kids have to endure this.

It's also an opportunity to ask your kids how they feel. Let them grieve. Let them show you they can hurt, and they can survive the hurt. When they express their pain and you bear witness to it, the message is that yes, we can survive these painful feelings.

Because we can.

 

[UBPDHelp]

He's already made a lot of accusations. He'll probably make more.  

Just because he says you have six bananas growing out of your head doesn't mean you do.

You’re right of course, but he’s so charming and now I’ve tried to help my kids understand (and sometimes I’ve been mad or end up with a few tears (mostly that I’ve failed them) so I have concern that it will get twisted. He will definitely throw every curve ball at me.

Your husband's rational mind may work just fine with clients who don't emotionally trigger him. But once his emotions start to fire, which they will when going through his own divorce, his rational mind will go offline and something else will take its place. The same thing you experience in the home will start to make more public appearances. The more narcissistic he is, the more he may seem to be in control, while at the same time, doing and saying things that don't make sense, especially for a lawyer. At least that was my experience.

This is interesting and a good point. I hadn’t thought of it this way and have struggled with whether I was off my rocker because no one else saw it. But, in truth, his family has seen glimmers and his business partner.  I’m sure opposing council has some too.

Becoming irrational and emotional can happen to us, too, the non-BPD spouse. Except for many of us, we return to baseline much quicker, which makes it a little easier to access the problem solving part of our brains.

So true. I’ve lost myself before, but it is short lived. And makes sense when I’ve shared this or asked for his help, he’s blown the situation up more. That behavior has made me very cautious what I share with him and then I feel like I’m lying. This makes sense. Ugh. 

That's why it can be really helpful to propose a solution when your ex makes an accusation that has no basis in reality. One that is so reasonable he cannot turn it down without looking strange.

This is just an example, there are many other ways to structure this: If your ex alleges parental alienation, recommend he do family therapy with the kids to help repair their relationship. Give him a list of three therapists (that you have pre-vetted) and have him select one by day/date. Have him lead. He needs to call and make the appointments, participate in the orientation, bring the kids, attend the sessions.

If he is BPD, he won't follow through because the solution creates a bigger problem for what's really happening, which is a staggering deficit of accountability for his own behaviors.

This is good. I’m not a very strategic person. I’m more what you see is what you get. And I try to be fair. Those are great in most relationships, but as has been pointed out to me a ton here, not so great with H.

So, should I have my base level of what I’ll accept and then up it 20, 30, 50% so we settle back at my base?

And, the offer to see a therapist with kids is perfect. He hates therapy and says it’s bs and even has spoken negatively about anyone who has seen a T.  I thought he knew something I didn’t. Didn’t realize he was afraid of someone seeing his true colors.
  

One thing I learned from friends here, and from my own therapy, is that it's not our place to say what someone else feels. Even if it's the other parent. If we say, "This mean guy who verbally abuses you actually loves you" then we conflate in our kids' minds that this abusive behavior is love.

This is a sucky but true point. I do believe he does love them. Just not enough to refrain from his behavior. And, it simply is not enough. He frames things around best for kid, but much is really so his world persona is intact. His narcissistic side demands we appear prefect to the outside world.  May be why my stress eating twenty pounds is too much for him. I don’t like it either for the record, but can’t focus elsewhere. May do me good, though.

Instead, I learned to say some version of, "How do you feel about that?" It may at first seem like it's going to make things worse but in my experience it allows kids to experience meaningful and genuine connection, especially when you are actively listening and bearing witness to what they feel. Bessel van der Kolk, a researcher and author who studies trauma, writes that trauma occurs when your reality is not allowed to be seen or known. When we ask our kids how they feel we are allowing them to be seen and known

I’ll work on this. Part of my current problem is being locked in (not literally) 24/7, we’ve only had moments to discuss, so I haven’t been good about hearing them entirely. I feel terrible I have added to their confusion. .

This is so hard for me to read. It's so similar to what happened in our home. I'm so sorry you and your kids have to endure this.

It's also an opportunity to ask your kids how they feel. Let them grieve. Let them show you they can hurt, and they can survive the hurt. When they express their pain and you bear witness to it, the message is that yes, we can survive these painful feelings.

Because we can.

 

Thank you so much. It is so hard and so painful. I need to get things in order. These uncertain times are making me more unsettled and yet if we hadn’t had so much day in and day out, I may have excused his behavior as fleeting issues. Truthfully, the frequency and magnitude of his dysregulations had been growing long before pandemic. Thank you LNL.

[worriedStepmom]

My stepdaughter is 12, with a mom with undiagnosed BPD.  When things got really bad two years ago, we sat her down and told her what she already knew - mom's way of thinking isn't the same as ours.  Mom reacts differently to some things than other people do, and she makes choices that other people may not understand, but they make sense to her.  Sometimes her reactions and her choices bring out feelings in us or in SD - sometimes big feelings - and it's good to talk about those.

Like lnl said, we focus on SD's feelings about things.  We do not make any excuses for mom, and we don't try to explain mom to SD.    It's is Mom's responsibility to create a good relationship with SD; it is our responsibility to help SD process her feelings without influencing her positively or negatively.  Occasionally, when things have been realllly bad, we've had to specifically call out an action - "X thing that mom did was wrong.  How did it make you feel when that happened?"

We do our very best not to speak negatively of Mom.  We let her actions speak for themselves.  This ensures there is no parental alienation on our part.  We also redirect SD back to mom, in a way to reinforce to SD that gaslighting is wrong - "You want to know why Mom did that?  You should ask mom.  She's the best person to answer questions about herself."

My ex doesn't have a personality disorder, and I do the same thing with our kids - I let him manage his relationship with the kids and I don't speak for him.  That was a really hard lesson for me to learn, because I was so used to managing the family dynamics, just like you are used to managing your H's relationship with your children and softening the consequences of his actions.  It's necessary, though, for you to step completely out of that.  Focus on your children and what they need from *you*.

[Panda39]

Claims of "he always..." or "She always..." can be heard and discounted as vague hearsay.  Courts pay attention to documentation.  Do the same.

What kind of documentation?  Are you talking about finances, house or to his behavior?

I'm going back a little bit...You will want documents, like mortgage info, retirement, insurance, bank statements etc.  I would make copies of important documents and put them somewhere safe. But I specifically wanted to talk about documenting his behaviors which it sounds like you have begun to do already. This is really important when it comes to custody. It is about documenting how those behaviors could be impacting your kids. I know you want to be fair but is 50/50 custody best for your kids? Can your husband help them get their homework done?  Get them to school, to the doctor, to an extra curricular activity?  Will he rage or give them the silent treatment?  What would 50% of the time with him look like to your kids?  Could your husband co-parent with you?  Put your kids needs before his own?  The court is going to be interested in how his behaviors affect your kids. You're an adult, your husband is an adult you're getting a divorce so how his behaviors impact you may be less important than how they impact your kids who will  continue to spend significant periods of time with him.  I'm not trying to scare you but I think you need to think about your kid's needs not your husband's.

My Partner was able to use documentation effectively and it helped when it came to custody and who had decision making when it came to the kids.

My Partner's uBPDxw had primary custody during the separation/divorce.  That unfortunately gave her the opportunity to alienate their daughters from their father, but it also gave her plenty of opportunity to show her behaviors and how she failed her kids.

My partner at that time was the standard Every Other Week (EOW) dad plus Wednesday evening dinner.

His younger daughter got a toothache, mom scheduled an appointment with the dentist, missed the appointment, rescheduled, missed it again, decided to change dentists, scheduled an appointment, missed the appointment, rescheduled...dad offered multiple times to take her (on email) and she refused.  This game went on for 3 months...the poor kid had a toothache for 3 months because her mother was playing games.  My Partner finally found a dentist open on the weekends and just took his daughter.

Mom pulled their older daughter out of school to do on-line classes.  This was against her father's wishes, her teachers advice and Principle's advice.  The the games began...the computer daughter was getting from the school didn't get there on time, then it got there but the cord didn't work, so they were waiting for a replacement...Dad offered to have his daughter over and use his laptop multiple times (on email)...mom refused (we found out later that mom's sister made the same offer and was refused) So the older daughter took weeks to actually get the equipment (at least that was the story) she never did school that year her first year of High School (this would come back to bite her later).  This was one of the most painful things for her dad who was so desperate to get her going to school he hoped she would be picked up for truancy.

Younger daughter also had attendance issues...if you had a stomachache on Monday that meant you stayed home for the rest of the week.  (We all know that keeping the kids home was really about soothing mom)

There are many other stories but I just want to demonstrate how documentation can help with custody.

My partner was able to demonstrate neglect when it came to the dentist. (He communicated only through email so he had documentation of all the times his ex failed to get their daughter to the dentist and how many times he offered to get her there and how he finally did).  He had his eye on what was best for his daughter, mom didn't.

He was able to document attendance issues both through school attendance printouts, and communication with teachers, schools, and his ex.

There were issues with Medical too and he documented it all there too.

When the divorce was final he received Medical, Dental & Education decision-making.  Mom got Therapy (I'm sure the judge figured a Therapist would recognize who the problem was), Vision, and Gynecological decision-making.  Courts like to appear fair...each parent got 3 areas of decision-making but who got what mattered?  He also received custody during the week and 1 weekend a month, mom had 3 weekends a month.  Visitation time was flipped.

I know that you all are still in the same house and even more so with the Covid-19 restrictions  and you are not communicating via email but keep dates and notes, text messages, emails about behaviors and how they affected your kids.  Keep this information in a very safe place.  As you document you may begin to see patterns in your husbands behaviors and how those affect your kids.

I also want to encourage you to stop thinking nice & fair, instead think strategically about what you and your children will need.  Your husband will take care of himself, your job is to take care of you and your kids.

Hang in there,
Panda39

[ForeverDad]

Panda's last post triggered a lot of memories for me.  She hit them spot-on.

My ex had raged at the pediatrician's staff because they had allowed me to make an appointment.  That was the final straw for the doctor, he 'fired' her according to the practice's notes.  What he did was send her a polite letter "withdrawing services".  (A few years later when I had legal custody the practice's lawyer still refused to let him come back.)  Our divorce trial had already been scheduled months in advance.  You can imagine how desperate she was to make me look worse than her.  Sure enough, CPS investigated me for getting enraged at my kindergarten son and beating him on his shins with my fists.  Sure enough, he later volunteered maybe his bruises were due to him playing on monkey bars in a park with his mother.  So on Trial Day I was greeted with the news that she was finally ready to settle after nearly two years of delays.  I walked out with Shared Parenting but slightly better than equal terms than my lawyer expected.  What did I get extra?  I had been determined to become the primary parent regarding school matters or else start the trial.  Within weeks that status proved providential.  School, which had previously claimed they didn't have any current issues with her, gave me one day to enroll our son in my own school district for the final month of kindergarten.  That's right, it wasn't long before more incidents occurred and now that she was no longer the responsible parent, they could get rid of the problem.

Oh, I almost forgot, we used a few daycares.  One which she had used before, I started using.  Oops, she did something, probably trying to take son from daycare before her parenting time had begun, they handed me a "withdrawal of services" letter and I had to go elsewhere once that week ended.

I seldom have heard other parents here mentioning withdrawn services and that happened to me twice!

Also, school observations and history can help more than your own testimony, at least it did for me.  In my final time in court I already had legal custody, I was again back seeking majority time, over 5 years after the final decree.  In the decision my ex looked as bad as I looked good.  At least six time the decision referenced her disparaging me.  Even the GAL had stopped trying to minimize her behaviors.  However, I got majority time only during the school year.  I concluded that the school's testimony about her excessive tardies and her creating a scene with teachers, taking him from a school overnight field trip to a kid's camp meant more than my constant disparagement.  So don't imagine that school-related issues or incidents don't mean much.

Also, during that hearing I refreshed my memory with details from my log, a weekly calendar book, and I was able to give dates, times, places, and other details.  Her lawyer never asked for it to be shared with my ex or the court, my lawyer assured me that my journals remained private.  (By that time I had 8 years of weekly calendar books.)

[livednlearned]

he’s so charming and now I’ve tried to help my kids understand (and sometimes I’ve been mad or end up with a few tears (mostly that I’ve failed them) so I have concern that it will get twisted. He will definitely throw every curve ball at me.

That's part of the weirdness, tho. My ex threw so much stuff at me that he kind of lost everyone's trust. He just threw anything he could to see what would stick. It's very strange to see the behaviors we know so well in the home start to play out in public. You will start to see how other people think and feel about him, and honestly it can be a bit therapeutic. It's unfortunate that this has to play out in court, which tends to be adversarial, but keep in mind that you will grow during this time, often in ways you maybe couldn't imagine.

should I have my base level of what I’ll accept and then up it 20, 30, 50% so we settle back at my base?

That's ideal.

It all sounds like a neat, linear well-thought out decision now in retrospect but like you describe about your own process, I had a lot of self-doubt, experienced so much uncertainty, gathered a lot of information then at times felt paralyzed by it, wasn't sure who I should trust, had trouble getting my thoughts organized, doubted myself constantly, was code red with anxiety and fear and dread. My employment situation was uncertain, I was trying to finish grad school and at risk of dropping out, my son had some special needs, family was far away, there was never enough money. You know the drill.

I guess what helped is that I hung onto that little thread and kept following it. I made some missteps but as I began to pull the frayed threads together, I got a tiny bit stronger bit by bit and saw my decisions begin to build into something stable and even peaceful. The feeling of walking into my apartment with my son without feeling knots of dread was a thing of beauty. We both felt it. My son gave me a hug and bounced off to play happily in a room with essentially no furniture.

I do believe he does love them.

Eventually, it really is about how they feel about their dad.

How he feels about them will likely take them many many years if not decades to untangle.

I feel terrible I have added to their confusion

No more beating yourself up 

When we know better we do better. And kids are amazingly responsive and resilient. Validation is like watering a thirsty plant. They will drink it up. You're already so important in their healing. It's ok to repair and recover, as one of my therapists would say. I would go to her and tell her what happened, and she would say, "I think your son was asking for water and you gave him an empty glass. So go back and give him some water." I would tell my son, "I made a mistake last time we talked and I want a do-over if that's ok. I'm learning and making mistakes and might even make more. Let's snuggle and you can tell me about your day."

You got this 

[UBPDHelp]

Panda's last post triggered a lot of memories for me.  She hit them spot-on.

My ex had raged at the pediatrician's staff because they had allowed me to make an appointment.  That was the final straw for the doctor, he 'fired' her according to the practice's notes.  What he did was send her a polite letter "withdrawing services".  (A few years later when I had legal custody the practice's lawyer still refused to let him come back.)  Our divorce trial had already been scheduled months in advance.  You can imagine how desperate she was to make me look worse than her.  Sure enough, CPS investigated me for getting enraged at my kindergarten son and beating him on his shins with my fists.  Sure enough, he later volunteered maybe his bruises were due to him playing on monkey bars in a park with his mother.  So on Trial Day I was greeted with the news that she was finally ready to settle after nearly two years of delays.  I walked out with Shared Parenting but slightly better than equal terms than my lawyer expected.  What did I get extra?  I had been determined to become the primary parent regarding school matters or else start the trial.  Within weeks that status proved providential.  School, which had previously claimed they didn't have any current issues with her, gave me one day to enroll our son in my own school district for the final month of kindergarten.  That's right, it wasn't long before more incidents occurred and now that she was no longer the responsible parent, they could get rid of the problem.

Oh, I almost forgot, we used a few daycares.  One which she had used before, I started using.  Oops, she did something, probably trying to take son from daycare before her parenting time had begun, they handed me a "withdrawal of services" letter and I had to go elsewhere once that week ended.

I seldom have heard other parents here mentioning withdrawn services and that happened to me twice!

Also, school observations and history can help more than your own testimony, at least it did for me.  In my final time in court I already had legal custody, I was again back seeking majority time, over 5 years after the final decree.  In the decision my ex looked as bad as I looked good.  At least six time the decision referenced her disparaging me.  Even the GAL had stopped trying to minimize her behaviors.  However, I got majority time only during the school year.  I concluded that the school's testimony about her excessive tardies and her creating a scene with teachers, taking him from a school overnight field trip to a kid's camp meant more than my constant disparagement.  So don't imagine that school-related issues or incidents don't mean much.

Also, during that hearing I refreshed my memory with details from my log, a weekly calendar book, and I was able to give dates, times, places, and other details.  Her lawyer never asked for it to be shared with my ex or the court, my lawyer assured me that my journals remained private.  (By that time I had 8 years of weekly calendar books.)

Wow!  This sounds intense.

Unfortunately for me, my H doesn’t really do doctor visits (or school or sports). He went to the first one after they were born. Couldn’t prove it was for any other reason than I wasn’t allowed to drive yet. Each of my oldest 3 have had to be seen by a specialist.  For the older two, he went to initial consult but no others. The concern was unfounded so ruled out issues after a few visits. My third has an issue. He hasn’t been to either specialist, but does briefly discuss with me.

He’s notorious for only listening for a few minutes and then he’s done. It’s a catch 22 because I’m very thorough with him otherwise he’ll accuse me of leaving something out, but he won’t listen to the whole thing. So you get so far, he’s done. Then a week or a month later he accuses me of not telling him. And in true fashion, I usually get “what else aren’t you telling me?” Classic lose-lose.

But I have been keeping an online journal of sorts. I actually send an email to an email account to detail behaviors, including snapshots of the outrageous text messages he’s sent me (that he later makes me delete). I mean downright horrendous character assassinations and demands to answer his questions. I don’t know if they have any value in divorce, except that because of his profession, he may not want them out (I may not either as I also will need financial support), so may be bargaining chip?  And when does that cross from bargaining chip to blackmail?

I may talk your cue and try to add the journal entries to a calendar as an illustration.

It’s so hard. Sometimes I see him as a broken man and I feel sorry for him that he’s so unhappy he takes it out on me. Other times I want to give him a taste of his own medicine.

Ultimately it will have to be tasting his medicine because he’s broken his word so many times I couldn’t trust him to remotely do the right thing.

Thanks ForeverDad for sharing your story and good ideas. 

[UBPDHelp]

That's part of the weirdness, tho. My ex threw so much stuff at me that he kind of lost everyone's trust. He just threw anything he could to see what would stick. It's very strange to see the behaviors we know so well in the home start to play out in public. You will start to see how other people think and feel about him, and honestly it can be a bit therapeutic. It's unfortunate that this has to play out in court, which tends to be adversarial, but keep in mind that you will grow during this time, often in ways you maybe couldn't imagine.

Hi LNL, this sounds intense. I think this is exactly what will happen and honestly I feel so beaten down now, I’m not sure I could handle it.

It all sounds like a neat, linear well-thought out decision now in retrospect but like you describe about your own process, I had a lot of self-doubt, experienced so much uncertainty, gathered a lot of information then at times felt paralyzed by it, wasn't sure who I should trust, had trouble getting my thoughts organized, doubted myself constantly, was code red with anxiety and fear and dread. My employment situation was uncertain, I was trying to finish grad school and at risk of dropping out, my son had some special needs, family was far away, there was never enough money. You know the drill.

This is the killer. I’ve actually landed on the only reason I haven’t left yet is solely finances. It’s not the reason along the way, but it is the only reason left. I have no job right now. Even with a job, my experience has been depleted as I’ve mostly worked from home for twenty years and that experience isn’t very marketable so I won’t be able to fully support myself and my kids.

The online calculators have him paying me a fair amount (he makes 5-6x what I do, occasionally 10x). Idk how realistic they are, though, even if it’s by state. And, there’s no guarantee I would even get alimony. Child support, I assume unless he somehow manages to get custody. And, idk if covid will impact. He hasn’t been working, but I expect he will be booming pretty soon. Idk.

I guess what helped is that I hung onto that little thread and kept following it. I made some missteps but as I began to pull the frayed threads together, I got a tiny bit stronger bit by bit and saw my decisions begin to build into something stable and even peaceful. The feeling of walking into my apartment with my son without feeling knots of dread was a thing of beauty. We both felt it. My son gave me a hug and bounced off to play happily in a room with essentially no furniture.

Peace and my kiddos are the only things I need. I don’t need anything exciting or extravagant. Just a cup of coffee, kid hugs and no demeaning me. Is that so much to ask?

Eventually, it really is about how they feel about their dad.

That’s a very good point. Two very clearly don’t like him. One plays nice but wants to get away. The youngest is unaware. Maybe it will get better.

How he feels about them will likely take them many many years if not decades to untangle.

He does love them in some strange way. Just not enough to not argue, fight all the time.

No more beating yourself up 

When we know better we do better. And kids are amazingly responsive and resilient. Validation is like watering a thirsty plant. They will drink it up. You're already so important in their healing. It's ok to repair and recover, as one of my therapists would say. I would go to her and tell her what happened, and she would say, "I think your son was asking for water and you gave him an empty glass. So go back and give him some water." I would tell my son, "I made a mistake last time we talked and I want a do-over if that's ok. I'm learning and making mistakes and might even make more. Let's snuggle and you can tell me about your day."

You got this 

This is helpful. New perspectives, new tools. Thank you for the reframing. And you’re right...knowing better means we do better. So true. I am trying...stumble, stumble...up again. Thank you LnL!