How to reconcile "protective dishonesty" part 8

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344802.0;all

Best to let them discover this, vice "challenge" them on it.  Let them wrestle with dots that don't line up.

That is a skill I have only stumbled upon, meaning I have accidentally let him discover and have been surprised that he did. Just chose to end the conversation and then he lined up the dots.

One thing I notice is he doesn’t seem to be doing soul-searching in his discovery. He has repeatedly listened to another (usually me) and mimicked back my thoughts — sometimes days, but maybe only hours or even just five minutes later. This is done with virtually no awareness that he has simply adopted another’s thoughts. It has been most prevalent recently — could be more noticeable with the sheer amount of time together, idk.

Would you consider that discovery?  Far more dubious?

End result is there is agreement, but now he has taken ownership of the idea. I do believe he is not fully aware he has done this...

[UBPDHelp]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344802.0;all

Best to let them discover this, vice "challenge" them on it.  Let them wrestle with dots that don't line up.

That is a skill I have only stumbled upon, meaning I have accidentally let him discover and have been surprised that he did. Just chose to end the conversation and then he lined up the dots.

One thing I notice is he doesn’t seem to be doing soul-searching in his discovery. He has repeatedly listened to another (usually me) and mimicked back my thoughts — sometimes days, but maybe only hours or even just five minutes later. This is done with virtually no awareness that he has simply adopted another’s thoughts. It has been most prevalent recently — could be more noticeable with the sheer amount of time together, idk.

Would you consider that discovery?  Far more dubious?

End result is there is agreement, but now he has taken ownership of the idea. I do believe he is not fully aware he has done this...

[UBPDHelp]

As a side note, what I really love in FF’s story about his wife and his “illegitimate daughter” having the same name is thinking how the medical records would reflect treating one individual for both menopause and diaper rash, and the height and weight discrepancy.

I dealt with similar illogical issues with my BPD mother, not nearly as creative and humorous, other than the time she stole the neighbor’s tree that was about to be planted, because it was on her side of the property line. It wasn’t. I had to do some explaining to the sheriff.

Even when people with personality disorders are far more logical, I’ve found it’s not worthwhile to confront them about issues that are nonsensical. They’re going to believe what they believe, regardless of the facts.

Hi Cat, I’m guilty of trying to correct misperceptions. To speak logically. He can function a great deal very logically, but then so irrationally that I dare say it falls off the spectrum.

But I’ve slowly learned there is no point to the discussion, held boundaries. I feel better, idk if he does.

The fun begins...slammed into gloom and doom with pandemic, finally some positive “there will be a vaccine”, then go back to normal. Hooray. But, now he’s convinced another pandemic is around the corner and we’ll be home for eternity. Idk, were still home, but about ready to break free.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi all...thank you so much for sticking with me.

Kind of been a bumpy few days. Not so much with H, I suspect he’s feeling I’ve pulled back some. I just am not sure I can do the roller coaster for much longer.

But I wanted to go back to something I said earlier...

One thing I notice is he doesn’t seem to be doing soul-searching in his discovery. He has repeatedly listened to another (usually me) and mimicked back my thoughts — sometimes days, but maybe only hours or even just five minutes later. This is done with virtually no awareness that he has simply adopted another’s thoughts. It has been most prevalent recently — could be more noticeable with the sheer amount of time together, idk.

Would you consider that discovery?  Far more dubious?

End result is there is agreement, but now he has taken ownership of the idea. I do believe he is not fully aware he has done this...

I hope that makes sense.

I’m seeing this play out over and over. He continues to take credit for everything. Quick reminder about credit, I don’t need credit, but it’s hard to have someone else take it.

So, I clean the coat closet that has been a dumping ground disaster. I don’t need everyone to say how great it is and what an awesome person I am for doing it. But, when he says he cleaned said closet because he put away a pair of his shoes, it’s annoying and weird.

We’ve been getting food reserves established during pandemic. I had actually stockpiled about a months worth of food in February when he was still laughing at me about pandemic and telling me it was a stunt to disrupt the election.  But, for about the last month or so, we’ve been staying ahead of it (there was about a month it was hard to get some stuff).  Now, he says it was all his idea.

Is this:

1. My fault for not repeatedly stating it was my idea?
2. Him trying to convince me that idk what really happened (he seems to convince himself these things).

I am starting to think I’m being masterfully manipulated in this regard. The first time he says it was him, it’s off the cuff remark and I don’t correct because that seems petty. The second time it’s said with audience and I don’t want to make a scene (aka him dysregulating on it). By the third time, it’s fact. Repeat this for ten things a day.

Or, is he protecting his ego by “believing“ these stories, especially because he doesn’t get reaction out of me much anymore?

Thanks all...just looking for some thoughts.

[UBPDHelp]

Morning all...

It’s been just a tough weekend, unrelated to H.

I’m seeing some shift in the dynamic and am not sure what to make of it, or if anything needs to be made of it.  

H has not had a total meltdown on me for a bit (sure it’s coming).

I’ve held my boundaries. He’s been presented with some usual triggers by outside sources (birthdays, virginity comments, etc.) and has not reacted towards me with them, which is different. I don’t believe it will last.

One of the most freeing tools has been some variation of SET and walking away. I suppose it’s partially changed his behavior, but ultimately I don’t care, I feel better.

I’ve stopped responding/reacting to his baits. I see an occasional snap at the kids and often without warning. For instance, kids are playing a game and we (me and H) start a movie. The youngest comes to ask a question and H screams to go away. We didn’t tell kids we were starting the movie so entertain yourself for the next hour and a half, so it feels mean to snap like that when the kid doesn’t know he’s disrupting. Kind of a little thing but...

Our middle daughter is a bit messy (teenager) and I remind her often to pull her things together. I see it as typical teen behavior, but in need of direction and I discuss the expectation and hold her accountable. The other night, after I went to bed, H went to talk to her and saw that she had something from the kitchen in her room and apparently he got mad and started walking through her room and looking around. When she told me, she just said she felt intimidated by him, even though he didn’t actually do anything other than to tell her to pick up.  

It’s hard to know if she’s overreacting to what seems somewhat typical parent/teen dynamic, and yet she felt intimidated. Then again, he doesn’t have to be responsible for every bad feeling we all have. And, I’m desensitized and hypersensitive at the same time.

But, I’ve mentioned the taking on stories as his own without it seems a consciousness that he is doing this. Wondering if this is a protective mechanism for his narcissism or an intentional act of gaslighting.  Any guesses?

He’s also started (or more frequently) doing little things that seem like mini versions of previous manipulations. Would these count as extinction bursts if they’re smaller?  Like is it a wind down?

Quick example...a couple of weeks ago he claimed he owned the outside patio. Nonsense, whatever. I had a call scheduled over the weekend and since it was a group call, which is challenging itself, I told him I was planning to take it on patio as it was early in the day but around the time kids start moving and so I thought the patio would be least likely place to get interrupted. (And, I also wanted to keep him away.  )  He was mad —the patio is HIS— and I was taking a call on the weekend (family time) and tried to shame me (or whatever) about taking the call. It was for an activity kid three is involved with and when I declined to move the call (no reason to other than he doesn’t want weekend stuff), he asked kid three if they wanted to quit the activity. Kid three was like idk, but I know they want to do it but didn’t want to rile dad.

So if that wasn’t enough, when it came time for the call, about 2 hours before H usually is up (figured it was safe), he comes down, un-showered.  He NEVER does this.

The best part is that the call got moved because someone else had a conflict, so H got up 2 hours early.  After about an hour, he left to go shower. He has never done this ever, so it feels very much like he got up at call time to try to be disruptive since I declined to change the day.

So, would this qualify as a distraction burst?  Something else?

Just wondering what the view from the outside looks like. Despite that it may appear my focus is on what he’s doing, I’m wondering if these changes are in response to better boundaries I’ve established or if he’s more likely not invested because once things go back to normal, he’s still leaving. The latter is my hope because I don’t see a way to save this marriage and ultimately I don’t think I have the energy it would take to continue on this path.  

And sometimes I see him and feel sorry for him. But it doesn’t change the horrible things he’s said and done and having some time, I cannot see how any of it indicates even a sliver of love on his part. Is that what I deserve?

Thanks for any thoughts. XOXO

[formflier]

Hmm...I'm going to issue an over-analysis alert.

I'm also going to give you a big hug and say it's completely understandable.   

This analogy may go weird...I've never tried it again. 

Imagine you have believed for most of your marriage that you are a "prey" animal.  Imagine you believe (ed) he is/was the "predator".  You've recently figured out that neither are true and you have been changing your role.  The "predator" has been making some predatory sounds and recently changed his "hunting patterns".

Even though you know he really isn't one, all those years of hyper-vigilance are deeply ingrained. 

Plus..you are still trying to figure out what he really is.

Whatever you can do to "cut in half" the amount of observation and analysis of his actions...the better.  Way less brainpower going over here.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

When he claims credit.

"Thanks for helping." or "Thanks for helping me."

or

Thanks.  You are so good at this, can you (fill in the blank).

(maybe he does resistance, so heap on praise)

I like the last idea, what do you think he would do if everytime he claimed credit..you praised and offered requests for more work.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Or, is he protecting his ego by “believing“ these stories,

here is my read on what you describe.

he isn't aiming at you.   he isn't picking a fight deliberately.   this isn't about you at all.   he is protecting his damaged sense of self.     one of the defense mechanisms he uses is always being the most important, largest, most dominant one in the house hold.   

when he plays the TV at the highest possible volume... who is in control of the family's comfort?     he is by controlling the volume.   who is aware of where he is and what he is doing?    everyone, no one can miss him.    no one can ignore him.   that's very protective of his fragile sense of self.      it's also very maladaptive.

when he decides he was the one who cleaned the closet or tipped the delivery guy or stock piled food,   who is the most important person in those stories.    He is.     He gets the last word.   He gets to be in charge.   In control.   that's where he needs to be much of the time to feel his version of normal/safe.

does he really want to own the patio?    maybe.   what he really wants is to be in control of everything all the time.   to be the center of the universe that you all orbit around.     narcissistic abuse is slightly different than borderline abuse.    it tends to put the narcissist back up into the one up position on the Karpman Drama Triangle we talked about.   back into the power position.    back into the obsessive need to control the environment around him so that he feels emotionally comfortable.

here is the thing I think you grapple with.    because he looks normal,  and can occasionally appear as if he is acting normally you don't see his handicap.   if he had lost his leg and got around on crutches you wouldn't expect him to begin training for a 5k.        but because his handicap is invisible you look for logical normal explanations.     the thing is,... instead of loosing his leg... he has lost a piece of his psyche... part of his personality did not develop normally.   because he is missing that part of his personality he uses crutches to prop himself up.  99% of what you describe is him propping himself up at the expense of someone or something else.    He is yelling at the child about cleaning the room,.. who is large and in charge there?   who is in control?    who has all the power in the dynamic.     he knows that you are secretly thinking about your boyfriend from 30 years ago.   he know what you actually did with your boyfriend from 30 years ago.   same questions UBPDHelp.    who has all the power and control in that dynamic.    He does.   doesn't matter what you say or explain He knows better.  He has all the control.

the next question is if he wants all the power and control all the time (or the vast majority of the time) what does this mean for you?    what do you feel about that.  how does that work for you?   can he over write your reality?   what kind of example is that for the kids?    can you blow off the comment about the closet and make a joke and move forward?     

correcting his opinions - you didn't clean the closet I did -   is skirting with the cycle of conflict.     especially if you repeatedly state it was your idea to clean the closet.

[Notwendy]

I think at some point, we have to just not buy into false accusations or premises.

He's using the old BF, virginity, all that- for his own self soothing and insecurities. You didn't pretend you were a virgin when you married him. If he wanted a virgin- then it's his responsibility to make that a priority when deciding who to marry. We can choose what we want in a spouse- some people want someone of the same religion, some don't care. But if someone wants to marry someone of the same religion, then don't marry someone who isn't. If he wanted to marry a virgin- then that's his responsibility to only propose marriage to virgins. He doesn't get to marry you and then be upset about whether you are or not.

What you did and with whom, before you were married to him, is none of his business.

Think of the other person as well. He's probably got his own family now or is dating other people. Are you obligated to share the details of his personal life? That's his business.

You have nothing to be ashamed of. Hand this responsibility back to your H ( mentally for yourself- not verbally to him)

Sometimes humor is OK, and sometimes not. If he says he owns the porch, I might reply " OK you are King of the Porch" and just walk away.

[UBPDHelp]

Hmm...I'm going to issue an over-analysis alert.

#true

The dynamic is changing and I do feel the need to understand.

So, to be more transparent, I feel like I can see more clearly what is going on.  It’s certainly not fully in focus, but life being at a standstill has given me ample time to reflect. And, then gut check that pandemic, over analyzing, etc., aren’t negatively influencing my thinking. Meaning, I don’t want the uncertainty and overall stress of pandemic time to direct my action.

But, the more resolve I feel and the more confident in my path forward, the less he impacts me. I get tripped up when I see the slivers of sweetness with one of the kids and think about the good times we have had. But they no longer outweigh the negative.

And I trip up when he’s quiet and I can see his struggle. It makes me sad that rather than ask for help/get help for whatever need he has, he’s instead taken to manipulating those around him for whatever need that fills.

And, mostly disappointed at myself for thinking any of this was okay. It’s not.

I'm also going to give you a big hug and say it's completely understandable.   

Thank you

This analogy may go weird...I've never tried it again. 

Imagine you have believed for most of your marriage that you are a "prey" animal.  Imagine you believe (ed) he is/was the "predator".  You've recently figured out that neither are true and you have been changing your role.  The "predator" has been making some predatory sounds and recently changed his "hunting patterns".

Even though you know he really isn't one, all those years of hyper-vigilance are deeply ingrained. 

Plus..you are still trying to figure out what he really is.

Whatever you can do to "cut in half" the amount of observation and analysis of his actions...the better.  Way less brainpower going over here.

Thank you for the analogy, they do help me.

The thing is, I believe you have way more hope that he can adapt and that any change can be sustained than I do.  I’ve wanted to believe that for so long, but I had no tools, didn’t realize what I was dealing with. Did this make him worse? Idk, maybe.

He’s had less outbursts that are less intense. It’s required emotional detachment — I don’t care that you say horrendous things to me/about me, I don’t let your comments manipulate me, etc. — but what kind of relationship has value that you have to emotionally detach to function?

Thanks FF...

[UBPDHelp]

When he claims credit.

"Thanks for helping." or "Thanks for helping me."

or

Thanks.  You are so good at this, can you (fill in the blank).

(maybe he does resistance, so heap on praise)

I like the last idea, what do you think he would do if everytime he claimed credit..you praised and offered requests for more work.

Thoughts?

Yes, I heap on praise so thick it would choke most people. I start a whole lot of sentences with “Thank you for telling me..., it helped me do ...”. Or, link 50% of my positives to something he did or said. He takes the other 50%, so you can see where that leaves me.

That said, I seem to occasionally fall nicely into getting him to do more with telling him what a great job he did.  

It’s a lot of work to do this to the excess he seems to need.  

[formflier]

Yes, I heap on praise so thick it would choke most people.

Assuming this is true and has been true (not a recent change), then perhaps you should consider changing this.

Probably a wise place to let others chime in and let you more fully explain the dynamic.


The basic thought is that if you have been doing something a long time and it isn't working...consider something that might work.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I don’t let your comments manipulate me, etc. — but what kind of relationship has value that you have to emotionally detach to function?

Your marriage...at least your marriage right now.

Certainly you are 100% within your rights to assign little (or a lot) of value to your marriage, especially as it relates to "meeting your needs".

Hold that thought for a second or two.

Is it only "worthy" or "OK" for a marriage to "get closer over time"? 

Hmmm?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

here is my read on what you describe.

he isn't aiming at you.   he isn't picking a fight deliberately.   this isn't about you at all.   he is protecting his damaged sense of self.     one of the defense mechanisms he uses is always being the most important, largest, most dominant one in the house hold. 

Agree. Always.   

when he plays the TV at the highest possible volume... who is in control of the family's comfort?     he is by controlling the volume.   who is aware of where he is and what he is doing?    everyone, no one can miss him.    no one can ignore him.   that's very protective of his fragile sense of self.      it's also very maladaptive.

100% spot on

when he decides he was the one who cleaned the closet or tipped the delivery guy or stock piled food,   who is the most important person in those stories.    He is.     He gets the last word.   He gets to be in charge.   In control.   that's where he needs to be much of the time to feel his version of normal/safe.

Yep

does he really want to own the patio?    maybe.   what he really wants is to be in control of everything all the time.   to be the center of the universe that you all orbit around.     narcissistic abuse is slightly different than borderline abuse.    it tends to put the narcissist back up into the one up position on the Karpman Drama Triangle we talked about.   back into the power position.    back into the obsessive need to control the environment around him so that he feels emotionally comfortable.

Again, 100%

here is the thing I think you grapple with.    because he looks normal,  and can occasionally appear as if he is acting normally you don't see his handicap.   if he had lost his leg and got around on crutches you wouldn't expect him to begin training for a 5k.        but because his handicap is invisible you look for logical normal explanations.     the thing is,... instead of loosing his leg... he has lost a piece of his psyche... part of his personality did not develop normally.   because he is missing that part of his personality he uses crutches to prop himself up.  99% of what you describe is him propping himself up at the expense of someone or something else.    He is yelling at the child about cleaning the room,.. who is large and in charge there?   who is in control?    who has all the power in the dynamic.     he knows that you are secretly thinking about your boyfriend from 30 years ago.   he know what you actually did with your boyfriend from 30 years ago.   same questions UBPDHelp.    who has all the power and control in that dynamic.    He does.   doesn't matter what you say or explain He knows better.  He has all the control.

All true. And, the analogy does help, including visualizing a chunk of his psyche missing.

He’s very smart, incredibly so.  It is confusing. Looking back it wasn’t so excessive the amount of power he needed, or at least not so obvious. But, looking back I also can’t think of very many times that he ever saw me. Not to say he didn’t do the perfunctory husband things, but I don’t believe they were really about me, but about him living with himself.

the next question is if he wants all the power and control all the time (or the vast majority of the time) what does this mean for you?    what do you feel about that.  how does that work for you?   can he over write your reality?   what kind of example is that for the kids?    can you blow off the comment about the closet and make a joke and move forward? 

And, that is exactly where I am. Admittedly it is so much narcissism right now. Pandemic only impacts him, he controls what we watch, whether we go out (truly we could, but then deal with his dysregulation so at the moment not worth it), what we can talk about (says over and over, I don’t want to talk about it and it’s virtually everything).  

So, I have pretty settled on that I can’t effect much change, probably can’t direct this to a better place (some is knowing I no longer have the energy to try to do so). But, I still have no job, he’s not working much (he has done a little here and there the last week), he wants to change to something else. If it were just me, I’d get a small place and take any job I can get, but I need to be smart as my younger two aren’t quite able to be home alone so I have to choose wisely, whenever a job does come.

I can blow off everything he says and it doesn’t matter to me to get the credit. It’s understanding (or trying to) how he can believe these things. It truly is bizarre to witness. Still don’t know if it’s intentional gaslighting or the protective mechanism (this is my guess but it happens without any awareness).

My oldest recently taught our dog a trick and showed a few of us.  My H now does the trick and tells all of us about it. Three of us know he wasn’t the one who taught the dog, but he doesn’t know we know.   Yes, this isn’t good for the kids. Confusing.

But I haven’t yet hit the point that leaving during current status is better...yet.

correcting his opinions - you didn't clean the closet I did -   is skirting with the cycle of conflict.     especially if you repeatedly state it was your idea to clean the closet.

I used to try because I was just confused. Now I say nothing. I don’t need a battle, he truly believes, etc., etc., and the peace from just walking away has more value.

So, can you give me a quick nutshell how you see leaving an NPD might differ from a BPD?  I keep feeling it would be better if he thinks it’s his decision.  

I am planning, getting my stuff in order so I am ready(ish) to go.

Thanks BabyDucks.

[UBPDHelp]

I think at some point, we have to just not buy into false accusations or premises.

Agree.  There was a time period several years ago when we’d be having a disagreement and he would say I said something. When I said “no, I didn’t say that”, he’d say “you don’t remember saying blah, blah?”  I actually started to think I was forgetting things I said. Now I’m fairly confident these were early manipulations. I wish I hadn’t been so naive...I trusted him.

He's using the old BF, virginity, all that- for his own self soothing and insecurities. You didn't pretend you were a virgin when you married him. If he wanted a virgin- then it's his responsibility to make that a priority when deciding who to marry. We can choose what we want in a spouse- some people want someone of the same religion, some don't care. But if someone wants to marry someone of the same religion, then don't marry someone who isn't. If he wanted to marry a virgin- then that's his responsibility to only propose marriage to virgins. He doesn't get to marry you and then be upset about whether you are or not.

Thank you for this.  This is how I felt but my confidence is so eroded I don’t have much faith in my perceptions. I was honest.  There was no innuendo or inference. I wouldn’t say I was too honest, in a typical relationship, but maybe for him. Idk.

Agree, if it was his deal breaker, then it was his responsibility to follow through. Not mine. He never said it was. I knew he didn’t like it, but at the time it seemed no different than anyone dealing with their SO’s ex. But, now I don’t even care. He feels how he feels, can’t do a thing about it. He can go.

Since his last huge eruption, with my stated boundary, he has only touched the surface of this and only a couple of times. I suspect it has more to do with him feeling trapped by pandemic than an actual change.

What you did and with whom, before you were married to him, is none of his business.

Think of the other person as well. He's probably got his own family now or is dating other people. Are you obligated to share the details of his personal life? That's his business.

Exactly. I don’t care.  I would never share, not my place. Have peace. Live your life.  And, I’m a believer of life experiences building you and had those not happened, you wouldn’t be who you are (even if I wish I was somewhere else).

You have nothing to be ashamed of. Hand this responsibility back to your H ( mentally for yourself- not verbally to him)

Handed. I will no longer discuss with him.

Sometimes humor is OK, and sometimes not. If he says he owns the porch, I might reply " OK you are King of the Porch" and just walk away.

Done. He is King of the World, without Leo’s smile.  C’est la vie.

Thanks notwendy!

[UBPDHelp]

Assuming this is true and has been true (not a recent change), then perhaps you should consider changing this.

Probably a wise place to let others chime in and let you more fully explain the dynamic.


The basic thought is that if you have been doing something a long time and it isn't working...consider something that might work.

Best,

FF

Thanks FF.  I think a more gradual, years long building change.

Like a little, then more need, a little more, now EVERYTHING wonderful is because of him. I’m bored with it...sigh.

If you look back to some of my early posts, one of my concerns was that not correcting things (JADEing) was moving the truth line.

I think this is what has happened. Idk if it’s worse now because he’s still so freaked out by pandemic that his need for credit is maxed out. Not sure...or he would have gotten here anyway. Idk.

welcome all thoughts 

Thank you!

[UBPDHelp]

Your marriage...at least your marriage right now.

Certainly you are 100% within your rights to assign little (or a lot) of value to your marriage, especially as it relates to "meeting your needs".

Hold that thought for a second or two.

Is it only "worthy" or "OK" for a marriage to "get closer over time"? 

Hmmm?

Best,

FF

Idk. I accept that it is fluid and will change over time. Even periods of bad.  But, honestly, this shift doesn’t work for me any longer.

I don’t have to detach to go find someone else to give me credit. I assure you I don’t care about getting credit (sure, the casserole is delicious is nice and appreciated), I just can’t be responsible to feed his insatiable ego. #tiredofit

I don’t mean to be adversarial to you. I think you, rightly so, advocate for trying and working on your own part. I just have 90% settled that he is not capable of better behavior and I am 98% sure I can’t deal with that any longer.

Thanks FF.

[formflier]

I don't feel you are being adversarial in the least...keep it up.  This is how you find "what matters" to you. 

Much of what we do here to support each other is holding up a mirror and asking..."is this really abc?"

I just can’t be responsible to feed his insatiable ego. #tiredofit

Here is the thing...is he involved in this at all?  Is he involved in your "feelings of responsibility"?

Please don't mince words or modify your response for fear of perception of "being adversarial". 

We've got you on this...please trust in that.  Even if your words come out cattywhompus (which I don't believe they have yet...but it does happen every so often).

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Still don’t know if it’s intentional gaslighting or the protective mechanism (this is my guess but it happens without any awareness).

Let's talk about gaslighting for a second.     I believe it's important to get the language and the definitions correct.    especially for anyone reading along. 

gaslighting is a murky term.    it comes out of the play and then the 1944 movie with Ingrid Bergman.    Psychology has it's own technical language and 'gaslighting' really isn't part of it.    Gaslighting is more like slang which drifted into the language of Psychology and has been made to fit.

for the purposes of our discussion here there is actually no such thing as intentional gaslighting.   people with NPD believe they’re extremely important and that the world revolves around them. They’re self-absorbed and don’t have time or interest in others unless it serves a purpose for them. They aren’t empathetic and don’t have the ability, or the interest, to understand what another person is feeling or experiencing.   when the people we deal with gaslight they are likely not aware of what they are doing or that it is a problem, but rather see it as a natural extension of their being "right" and supremely important.     

it's not a conscious decision but a function of an insatiable need to control others and a deep-seated anxiety.

So, can you give me a quick nutshell how you see leaving an NPD might differ from a BPD?  I keep feeling it would be better if he thinks it’s his decision. 

I can offer my take on it but this is a huge topic.   it's also a process.   it takes a lot of time and self reflection.    I want to put in a cautionary note.    to beware of black and white thinking.   your black and white thinking (yes we all do it) not his.  if I leave things will be better and I won't have to deal with him any more.   black and white thinking.    if  I make the decision to divorce  that will resolve my feelings for him and the family.   black and white thinking.    if we divorce we will eventually end up in a place with no conflict.   yup.  also black and white thinking.

you know from your reading on the family law board that ending a relationship with a pwBPD/NPD is usually a years long process.   there is also the emotionally detaching process which is difficult and long.

yes it is usually recommended that it is slightly better if he thinks it's his idea and he is getting what he wants.     

but it's also important to understand what the problem is you are trying to solve.

I just have 90% settled that he is not capable of better behavior and I am 98% sure I can’t deal with that any longer.

if the problem you are trying to solve is that you are not able to deal with this any longer, I have to       divorcing very likely means you are going to be dealing with more, not less.    in the healthiest of families divorcing generates conflict and stress and he handles stress badly.

if the problem you are trying to solve is that you can't deal with this any longer ... well I am going to raise that old chestnut of self care and support yourself.     self care self care self care.   build your energy reserves.   find lots of ways to support yourself so that your days are filled with doing other things that dealing with this.     find ways to give yourself a well deserved break.     I would also suggest regular contact with a spiritual advisor or a therapist or both if that works for you.    some one you can speak to face to face.

my two cents
'ducks

[formflier]

but it's also important to understand what the problem is you are trying to solve.

There was so much good stuff in that post, it was really hard to pick out the top thing...above is my vote.


I would hope you can break down the issues that "you can't deal with anymore"

"If I divorce abc will be better because I ..."

"If I don't divorce abc will be better because I"

Lay out a few of these as they relate to the big issues. 

Switching gears to "it being his idea."

I wouldn't put much effort into this.  If he wants to divorce you, he has the ability to do so...without your vote.

Seriously...think about this.  If he "wants" divorce, then why doesn't he have one?

So..let's go into the future.  You have nudged him into thinking the divorce is his idea.  Then...after a brief dysregulation he "blames" you for divorce.  You point out to him that it was his idea.  He say "no" or perhaps he say "you made me want this".

Then where are you at?  How do you get back to "he wanted the divorce"?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

I don't feel you are being adversarial in the least...keep it up.  This is how you find "what matters" to you. 

Much of what we do here to support each other is holding up a mirror and asking..."is this really abc?"

As much time as I spend on what he’s doing, I spend twice as much on what I am, more if you take purposefully “doing other” things, not just reflecting on my part of the dynamic.

Here is the thing...is he involved in this at all?  Is he involved in your "feelings of responsibility"?

Please don't mince words or modify your response for fear of perception of "being adversarial". 

We've got you on this...please trust in that.  Even if your words come out cattywhompus (which I don't believe they have yet...but it does happen every so often).

Idk if he’s involved...he clearly has a HUGE need to have his ego fed.

But, what do you mean by “Here is the thing...is he involved in this at all?  Is he involved in your "feelings of responsibility"?“

Do you mean his need is unconscious? Do you mean I’m projecting my feelings onto him?

I don’t see another interpretation to what’s happening, but I’m open to insight. What am I missing?

[UBPDHelp]

Let's talk about gaslighting for a second.     I believe it's important to get the language and the definitions correct.    especially for anyone reading along. 

gaslighting is a murky term.    it comes out of the play and then the 1944 movie with Ingrid Bergman.    Psychology has it's own technical language and 'gaslighting' really isn't part of it.    Gaslighting is more like slang which drifted into the language of Psychology and has been made to fit.

for the purposes of our discussion here there is actually no such thing as intentional gaslighting.   people with NPD believe they’re extremely important and that the world revolves around them. They’re self-absorbed and don’t have time or interest in others unless it serves a purpose for them. They aren’t empathetic and don’t have the ability, or the interest, to understand what another person is feeling or experiencing.   when the people we deal with gaslight they are likely not aware of what they are doing or that it is a problem, but rather see it as a natural extension of their being "right" and supremely important.     

it's not a conscious decision but a function of an insatiable need to control others and a deep-seated anxiety.

Agree.

My basic understanding of gaslighting made me question (somewhere along this thread) if that was truly the question. Apologies to anyone I confused. 

So, my actual question, without labeling, is:

1. Is he changing the story/discussion/deed in a purposeful way to attain the power position.
    a. A campaign to put me off balance to more easily obtain the upper hand

OR

2. Is he unaware almost entirely of this vast need he is trying to fill?

Some need filling isn’t personal — more vacation, more things, better car — but feels like trying to fill something missing.

I can offer my take on it but this is a huge topic.   it's also a process.   it takes a lot of time and self reflection.    I want to put in a cautionary note.    to beware of black and white thinking.   your black and white thinking (yes we all do it) not his.  if I leave things will be better and I won't have to deal with him any more.   black and white thinking.    if  I make the decision to divorce  that will resolve my feelings for him and the family.   black and white thinking.    if we divorce we will eventually end up in a place with no conflict.   yup.  also black and white thinking.

Yes, I don’t have an illusion of washing my hands of him, but I suspect not dealing with daily will be better. Of course, there’s no telling what he’ll stoop to. 

Keep your enemies closer...but without knowing the levels he’ll resort to, I still feel more willing to endure for a year or two and then maintenance with kid stuff.

He was ready to divorce, may still be, but need to think how to get him to at least think it’s his choice. Idk.

you know from your reading on the family law board that ending a relationship with a pwBPD/NPD is usually a years long process.   there is also the emotionally detaching process which is difficult and long.

Yes, and I feel like I have begun detaching, but know I will have very hard times. I don’t need to end up anywhere except better. Better for not having to be pulled to focus on his needs.

The way I see it...he doesn’t help around the house (a task here or there, short-lived and rarely complete), doesn’t have any empathy at all for me (denies I have an autoimmune disease despite diagnosis from expert, never said he was sorry when my dad died, doesn’t think pandemic is stressful for me, too, etc.). So, I can have all that (or none as the case may be) AND not have to deal with his insatiable need. Feeling like the bandaid needs to come off.

yes it is usually recommended that it is slightly better if he thinks it's his idea and he is getting what he wants.

Makes sense.  Will need to be ready next time he wants divorce.

but it's also important to understand what the problem is you are trying to solve.

if the problem you are trying to solve is that you are not able to deal with this any longer, I have to       divorcing very likely means you are going to be dealing with more, not less.    in the healthiest of families divorcing generates conflict and stress and he handles stress badly.

Agree. But wouldn’t I have more time to be away from it and a line that says I don’t have to answer to him (except joint kid stuff)?

if the problem you are trying to solve is that you can't deal with this any longer ... well I am going to raise that old chestnut of self care and support yourself.     self care self care self care.   build your energy reserves.   find lots of ways to support yourself so that your days are filled with doing other things that dealing with this.     find ways to give yourself a well deserved break.     I would also suggest regular contact with a spiritual advisor or a therapist or both if that works for you.    some one you can speak to face to face.

Yes.  The T will cause more disruption than fix right now. I have some ready when it is better to do so.

Can you see a possible way for this to continue?  I can’t really.

[formflier]

I don’t see another interpretation to what’s happening, but I’m open to insight. What am I missing?

My question was about your feelings of responsibility.  Is he involved in that at all?

Hint (boundaries )

Best,

FF

[formflier]

 ...he clearly has a HUGE need to have his ego fed.
 

For the sake of argument (and also because I believe it to be true)...let's take this as true.  He feels a need to have his ego fed.

So what?  How does that affect you.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

He was ready to divorce

Is the above true?  If you believe it to be true, how do you know this?

 

 

  But wouldn’t I have more time to be away from it and a line that says I don’t have to answer to him (except joint kid stuff)?

This seems like an important question...one that you should have absolutely no doubt about.

Do you have to answer to him now?

or

Do you choose to answer to him now?

Best,

FF


 

[UBPDHelp]

My question was about your feelings of responsibility.  Is he involved in that at all?

Hint (boundaries )

Best,

FF

Hi FF, the nuances are tough for me, if you haven’t figured that out.

I have tried over the top accolades just so he could “feel” it because he seems to need it, albeit there may be some ebb and flow to the “need”.

I have tried SET and I’ve also tried letting him congratulate himself and not added to it. These two increase the fervor for which he “needs” credit.

When this happens, I try to end the conversation as appropriate for the tool and excuse myself, but I’m running out of places to go constantly removing myself. BUT, boy do I appreciate that time.

I’ve also reestablished some independent thinking, which is FANTASTIC.  

So I’m left with boundaries that ensure I’m leaving conversations (often physically leaving) or heaping on the praise, which gets tiring. Add to it the hypocrisy that he gives no one else any real credit and blech.

So the requirements of this dynamic feel almost insurmountable.

What would you do?


Oh, and I suppose he is not directly involved, but his behavior when he doesn’t get the excessive praise means I have to do something to deal with his behavior. Path of least resistance (excessive praise) vs boundary/changing my plans based on his behavior.

So, I ask again...what would you do?  I need ideas!

[UBPDHelp]

For the sake of argument (and also because I believe it to be true)...let's take this as true.  He feels a need to have his ego fed.

So what?  How does that affect you.

Best,

FF

Feed his ego = not dealing with his dysregulation/amped up behavior

Boundary = stopping what I’m doing to remove myself = another non-peaceful day not doing what I want and being called horrendous names

I treasure my boundaries.  I need them. But it feels that I have to have them at every turn with him and I’m not sure it’s sustainable.

Thoughts?

[Notwendy]

He was ready to divorce, may still be, but need to think how to get him to at least think it’s his choice. Idk.

Yes.  The T will cause more disruption than fix right now. I have some ready when it is better to do so.

Can you see a possible way for this to continue?  I can’t really.


I'm going to address these statements.

The first- make the D seem like his idea- that's a manipulation. My own personal feeling is that a person is ready to take on a divorce when they believe it is the right thing to do for them in their situation. It may not be what the other person wants. They may not want to hurt the other person, but know that this is the direction they need to take. It's easier if the other person also wants it, but that isn't always the case.

By doing this, you are still looking at your H to take the lead in your relationship.

One of my favorite lines from Dr. Phil is when he was dealing with a family with a disordered person. It wasn't BPD but the dynamics were similar. The family was completely focused on this person's feelings and moods, and so this person held the power in the family and also received a lot of attention. There is a payoff to your H's behavior for him. He's not likely to want to change that.

The family though, wanted change. Dr. Phil said " you are all lost in the woods and are looking at a disordered person to lead you out".

If you want to change the disordered patterns - don't look to your H to lead you out.

Can you see a way for this to continue?

This is a question for you to answer. Are you done with the drama yet? You can be done with the drama and not done with the marriage. It is possible to make personal changes in or out of a relationship. In fact, ending the marriage doesn't always end the drama- as each person plays a role on that, and the two of you are still co-parenting. You can also end the marriage if you wish, but working on reducing the drama on your end and that can be two separate things.

Not seeing a T in order to keep the peace is also looking to your H for that decision. A qualified T can help you make personal changes. To be effective, the T should not just let you vent and sympathize with you. It helps to feel supportive but sometimes a little tough love- showing you your part in this, is most helpful.

You've already made some changes and that is great.

[UBPDHelp]

Quote from: UBPDHelp on June 09, 2020, 08:31:31 AM


He was ready to divorce


Is the above true?  If you believe it to be true, how do you know this?

I believe at times he does believe it.  He’s said it 500 times.

I have written words that explicitly say this.
  

Quote from: UBPDHelp on June 09, 2020, 08:31:31 AM

  But wouldn’t I have more time to be away from it and a line that says I don’t have to answer to him (except joint kid stuff)?

This seems like an important question...one that you should have absolutely no doubt about.

It’s what he’s told me, in reverse.

I’m in a state of disgust at him for his behavior — vile words, absolute collapse at pandemic to everyone’s detriment, let’s not forget the broken things

I’m disgusted at myself, too. Happy to share all the reasons.

I feel sorry for him, too, but I don’t trust him. He doesn’t have my best interest at heart, despite a facade...it is crumbling.

Do you have to answer to him now?

or

Do you choose to answer to him now?

Nuance again. I don’t “have to” except that the fallout of not doing so can often be intensely negative.

And, as a couple there are joint decisions and I guess where that line ends is often blurry to me.

[formflier]

Trying to pick out the most important nugget to me.

If he says something 500 times...how does that relate to it being "true"?

So..if he says you ride a witches broom every night for the last 3125 nights...does that somehow make it true, whereas 3124...not true at all?

What do you KNOW about how this disorder affects what comes out of his mouth?

(I'll get to the other stuff later, or someone else will)  It's important that you GET and then APPLY these concepts to your thinking.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

He was ready to divorce, may still be, but need to think how to get him to at least think it’s his choice. Idk.

Yes.  The T will cause more disruption than fix right now. I have some ready when it is better to do so.

Can you see a possible way for this to continue?  I can’t really.


I'm going to address these statements.

The first- make the D seem like his idea- that's a manipulation.

It is I suppose. Several weeks ago he told me we would divorce and I could decide custody, etc.  Told me his only condition was that I had to give him his name back. I set up a call with a L, which is on hold because H won’t leave the house and I can’t get privacy to take a call.

Then he apologized. I was devastated because I wanted to go when it was his idea.

It’s not that I want him to lead me, it’s that he’s a narcissist and I suspect that if I initiate D, he will make it 100 worse. At least that’s where I am at the moment. Can you fault a girl for hoping?

BUT, when I can be more prepared to go, then I will take the lead if he has not. Just believe, maybe incorrectly, that he’d be better if it was his idea. He likes all credit...ugh, but no responsibility...maybe I just undid my own thought?

So this is a wish and not so much a plan.

My own personal feeling is that a person is ready to take on a divorce when they believe it is the right thing to do for them in their situation. It may not be what the other person wants. They may not want to hurt the other person, but know that this is the direction they need to take. It's easier if the other person also wants it, but that isn't always the case.

I agree. I’ve never been there, but this last year has about brought me to a point of no return.

By doing this, you are still looking at your H to take the lead in your relationship.

One of my favorite lines from Dr. Phil is when he was dealing with a family with a disordered person. It wasn't BPD but the dynamics were similar. The family was completely focused on this person's feelings and moods, and so this person held the power in the family and also received a lot of attention. There is a payoff to your H's behavior for him. He's not likely to want to change that.

The family though, wanted change. Dr. Phil said " you are all lost in the woods and are looking at a disordered person to lead you out".

If you want to change the disordered patterns - don't look to your H to lead you out.

Agree. I am gaining strength and resolve and weighing options and taking inventory. I don’t take this lightly, but I also can’t wait forever...I’ve already waited so long for change.

Indecision is a decision. I’ve been there a long time, I need to make some decisions soon.

Thanks notwendy...I appreciate forcing me to reflect on my own issues and calling me out. I mean well, but can’t always see my own flaws.

Can you see a way for this to continue?

This is a question for you to answer. Are you done with the drama yet? You can be done with the drama and not done with the marriage. It is possible to make personal changes in or out of a relationship. In fact, ending the marriage doesn't always end the drama- as each person plays a role on that, and the two of you are still co-parenting. You can also end the marriage if you wish, but working on reducing the drama on your end and that can be two separate things.

I hear you. I’d like no drama, or at least a whole lot less of self-imposed drama.  My feelings for him have changed. I don’t feel romantic love for him and not sure I will ever again. He’s the father of my children. I feel sorry that his struggle is real, but I’m not sure how much more I can do. And he doesn’t want help.

I don’t know if you can come back from the things he’s said and done.

Not seeing a T in order to keep the peace is also looking to your H for that decision. A qualified T can help you make personal changes. To be effective, the T should not just let you vent and sympathize with you. It helps to feel supportive but sometimes a little tough love- showing you your part in this, is most helpful.

You've already made some changes and that is great.

Thanks notwendy. I understand this. I’m also being mindful of my capacity to handle various fallouts. Unfortunately I have things I consider more important at the moment to deal with. But I’m getting close.

Thank you again for your honesty and the mirror.