Shaken, without that luxury of distance things have deteriorated.

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I have been on and off these boards over the years and it has helped me to regain some sanity in dealing with a pwBPD.

The world is going through tough times at the moment, added to which I retired a few months ago. Before the pandemic I never intended my retirement to be spent so much at home but many of my plans have had to put on hold for the time being. One of the reasons for my retirement plans was about me, I like to keep busy and I enjoy varied social contact; the other was because I think I always knew the only reason we had managed 15 years together was because I spent a fair amount of time away with work thus giving us both some space.

Sure when working away I would get some nasty texts or angry phone calls but the distance enabled me to either ignore them or at least not feel particularly affected by them.

Now of course without that luxury of distance things have deteriorated. I still get out of the house every day but am much more exposed to his illness. I also get that my moods are not as stable as normal, like everyone finding the lack of normal social contact and purpose difficult although I can see this is temporary and will pass. I have however been doing some voluntary work which is very satisfying.

My pwBPD is very low functioning, not unintelligent but the feelings = facts applies in abundance. He has access to help but does not use it, preferring to use me as his outlet. I have done my best to resist this, not being unkind but placing the responsibility for his feelings back where they belong. Over the past few weeks he has become more and more ill (real or imagined?) his back hurts - probably true as he does have problems but if I offer to help lift or move anything I am 'interfering'. He is convinced he has bowel cancer (unlikely) his erratic eating habits are probably the cause of his discomfort however his GP has referred him to hospital clinic and he now refuses to go "what's the point". He has Covid 19, again after finally getting him checked he has not but still says he has. Playing for sympathy?

Apparently its alright for me, I care more about my volunteering than I do him. Now repeat that every chance he gets. I ignore the barbed comments, speak kindly and remind him that his GP is very supportive if he talks to her.

I knew a storm was brewing! I was woken on Monday morning to loud crashing and banging in the kitchen, followed by a tirade of foul verbal abuse and despite moving away to another room the tirade continued. I called the Police as I was very concerned about my own risk. They spoke to him and advised contacting the GP and warned him to keep away from me.

I know that the abuse was largely projection of his own self-loathing but being low myself it is hard to endure the nasty accusations that he was making, it has shaken my self-confidence.

I went out for a few hours to regain my serenity but on return the behaviour started again and I again asked the Police to attend who warned him that any further episode would result in his arrest. They also gave me advice on local DV services. He has since retired to his room and not appeared for which I am thankful, I could not face him at the moment.

I feel very shaken by this, am seeing my GP this morning and have a call booked with the DV advisor tomorrow. I am aware that I am in a state of shock and feeling very anxious and am determined to get help for me with this.

We have been together (on and off) for over 15 years and I have probably made every mistake under the sum in dealing with this illness but I have done the best I could however I feel at the end of my tether today, and hope that I am doing the best thing in getting support for me.

Ortac

[ortac77]

I have been on and off these boards over the years and it has helped me to regain some sanity in dealing with a pwBPD.

The world is going through tough times at the moment, added to which I retired a few months ago. Before the pandemic I never intended my retirement to be spent so much at home but many of my plans have had to put on hold for the time being. One of the reasons for my retirement plans was about me, I like to keep busy and I enjoy varied social contact; the other was because I think I always knew the only reason we had managed 15 years together was because I spent a fair amount of time away with work thus giving us both some space.

Sure when working away I would get some nasty texts or angry phone calls but the distance enabled me to either ignore them or at least not feel particularly affected by them.

Now of course without that luxury of distance things have deteriorated. I still get out of the house every day but am much more exposed to his illness. I also get that my moods are not as stable as normal, like everyone finding the lack of normal social contact and purpose difficult although I can see this is temporary and will pass. I have however been doing some voluntary work which is very satisfying.

My pwBPD is very low functioning, not unintelligent but the feelings = facts applies in abundance. He has access to help but does not use it, preferring to use me as his outlet. I have done my best to resist this, not being unkind but placing the responsibility for his feelings back where they belong. Over the past few weeks he has become more and more ill (real or imagined?) his back hurts - probably true as he does have problems but if I offer to help lift or move anything I am 'interfering'. He is convinced he has bowel cancer (unlikely) his erratic eating habits are probably the cause of his discomfort however his GP has referred him to hospital clinic and he now refuses to go "what's the point". He has Covid 19, again after finally getting him checked he has not but still says he has. Playing for sympathy?

Apparently its alright for me, I care more about my volunteering than I do him. Now repeat that every chance he gets. I ignore the barbed comments, speak kindly and remind him that his GP is very supportive if he talks to her.

I knew a storm was brewing! I was woken on Monday morning to loud crashing and banging in the kitchen, followed by a tirade of foul verbal abuse and despite moving away to another room the tirade continued. I called the Police as I was very concerned about my own risk. They spoke to him and advised contacting the GP and warned him to keep away from me.

I know that the abuse was largely projection of his own self-loathing but being low myself it is hard to endure the nasty accusations that he was making, it has shaken my self-confidence.

I went out for a few hours to regain my serenity but on return the behaviour started again and I again asked the Police to attend who warned him that any further episode would result in his arrest. They also gave me advice on local DV services. He has since retired to his room and not appeared for which I am thankful, I could not face him at the moment.

I feel very shaken by this, am seeing my GP this morning and have a call booked with the DV advisor tomorrow. I am aware that I am in a state of shock and feeling very anxious and am determined to get help for me with this.

We have been together (on and off) for over 15 years and I have probably made every mistake under the sum in dealing with this illness but I have done the best I could however I feel at the end of my tether today, and hope that I am doing the best thing in getting support for me.

Ortac

[Cat Familiar]

Absolutely you are doing the appropriate thing in getting support for yourself! You’ve been providing support for him for years and it’s time to take care of your own needs.

The enforced closeness the pandemic has required has clarified the overall situation for you. This relationship could have been more tolerable for your retirement as you envisioned it, with travel and volunteering, but the compulsory togetherness has elicited more difficulties than you could have imagined.

Perhaps it’s too early to envision the next phase of your life, post pandemic, but how do you think you’d redesign your retirement plan?

[ortac77]

Thanks Cat

Useful chat with GP yesterday and pointers to local support services and have an assessment booked today (by phone). I took myself off for a long walk yesterday afternoon which helped clear my thinking.

A couple of things became clearer - how my dislike of conflict can so easily break my resolve, also that these attacks (however much they are the product of his feelings) have eaten away at my self-confidence. My career used to provide good reinforcement to my self confidence and of course provided avoidance of direct conflict most of the time. I can see perhaps how they also provided an avoidance of facing the reality of my relationship issues and my own feelings.

I think before I can truly focus on how I plan the next phase of my retirement I need to tackle these issues head on with some therapeutic help. In the meantime as (hopefully) the virus abates and a new normal emerges some of my original plans will be possible.

The GP called me an 'Empath' - I had never thought of that before, I knew I was a person who can be empathic but when I looked at the traits it fitted me to a T - I cannot change some of the core traits but it is becoming clearer that I do need some help getting a better balance in caring for myself and setting more consistent boundaries.

So perhaps phase 1 of my forward plan is the admittance that a life 'giving' to others has left me bereft of a proper sense of who I am. Whilst at one level I am glad that I am empathic, it too often comes at that terrible cost of losing my own needs and values. Challenging but necessary.

Ortac x

[formflier]

I had never heard of the term "Empath", so I googled a bit.  I can see how that would be very difficult when with someone with extreme emotions.

Hey..really good job reaching out for support.

I'm curious about what you say/do when he says he has covid (and other ailments).  My guess is that you are unwittingly "feeding" some need since he has done it for so long.

Can you give examples?

Best,

FF

[ortac77]

Hi FF

I hadn't heard it either so like you googled it and it did look a lot like me - maybe I need to think it through and am arranging to see a therapist to help me work things through.

Your other question is very valid, I think he 'likes' to have physical ailments, they elicit sympathy and play to his need to be a victim, I am sure you are right about me feeding it - hmm there's one of those empath traits I think?

I think I do tend to play along with illness claims, make excuses for him or act in a rather 'parental' way.

[formflier]

My initial guess/advice is that anytime he claims to have an ailment I would ask him how he knows this and what he plans to do about it.

I would express zero "concern" or "alarm" or anything else.

Well...if it turns out there is an actual ailment, then concern is warranted.

Most likely if he claims he "knows" but won't share details...they I would say that befuddles you and you don't know what to do with that.  Basically leave it hanging.

Best,

FF

[Lucky Jim]

a life 'giving' to others has left me bereft of a proper sense of who I am. Whilst at one level I am glad that I am empathic, it too often comes at that terrible cost of losing my own needs and values.

Hey ortac, Perhaps the first step is to return the focus to you and your needs.  Put yourself first for a change.  Be kind and compassionate to yourself.  Strive to be authentic.  Get back to who you are at your core.  Listen to your gut feelings.  If you are unsure of what to do, sit with your feelings and wait for the water to clear, at which point your answer is likely to appear.

LuckyJim

[ortac77]

Hi FF

Yes that seems a good way to go, after all any expressions of concern or sympathy get twisted as my interfering or controlling. I will try your ideas.

Hi Lucky Jim

That is what I am trying to do. It is something I have always struggled with even though intuitively I know you are correct. In my FOO any feelings were met with stoicism, a sort of 'get on with it, stop feeling sorry for yourself approach so identifying my needs is quite difficult and think I may have to work with a therapist to really get at 'my core'.

In the meantime I am trying to untangle my thoughts, work out what is 'mine' and what is distorted thinking created by the situation.

He has shut himself away now since Monday - this is not unusual - I am sure I am 'expected' to check he is ok - its usually what I do because I hate the 'sulky' behaviour. I hear the toilet flush occasionally so know he is still alive! This time I am determined to leave him be and I need to think carefully about how I feel before any re-engagement.

Ortac

[formflier]

If you are not going to "pursue" him (which you shouldn't), then think about what you are willing to do (should do) when he wants to continue like nothing happened.

Has anything like this ever happened before (where you didn't pursue).

Note:  If he wants to act like his misbehavior never happened, it should be an uncomfortable experience for him to "get back" to the r/s with you that he likes/wants.

Any ideas on what that may look like?

Best,

FF

[ortac77]

Hi

If it follows a 'usual' pattern there will be period of avoiding me - anything from a few days to a week followed by some sort of apology usually along the lines of 'I don't remember what I said/did'. In the past I have attempted to engage with the apology, explain how it has made me feel and urged him to get some help with his feelings.

He then will 1. either sob and act guilty and ashamed promising to 'try harder or 2. Try to avoid any discussion and go silent.

I agree that it should be 'uncomfortable for him' and this means a lot of change on my part, I usually try to forgive and forget rather than have a tense atmosphere. What that may look like - well in the first instance not to make any suggestions about how to get help - he knows how to do that if he chooses, secondly to make him more responsible for his own situation rather than 'rescue'. As an example I don't think he has eaten anything since Monday, also I don't think he has much food - I could go shopping for him but he can do that for himself - or not eat - really his choice.

To focus on me and make sure I am doing things for myself.

[Cat Familiar]

If you are a chronic rescuer, like I was, it will feel mean or uncaring not to rescue.

On the flip side, by rescuing, you are also infantalizing. And there is a negative hit to his self esteem to be rescued, even though he might want and expect it.

[ortac77]

Chronic rescuer - yes! Do i feel mean and uncaring - yes!

I will just have to feel that I think uncomfortable as it is because I know you are right.

[Lucky Jim]

Hello Ortac,

One day it dawned on me that rescuing is unhealthy because it serves as a way to avoid confronting one's own issues.  At the same time, it's unhealthy for the person rescued, because it undermines his/her autonomy, as Cat notes.  Though declining to rescue may seem unkind and uncaring, in my view it's actually healthier for both of you.  Does that make sense?

LJ

[ortac77]

Intellectually it makes perfect sense, it is I know an unhealthy trait or perhaps a learned behaviour? I was brought up by a ‘rescuer’ and can see that many of my actions during my lifetime have been rescuing others.
I cannot switch off my feelings that it is selfish or uncaring but I am working on doing it knowing I my mid 60’s it’s going to take a lot of hard work

[formflier]

You can do it, start with small things...or medium sized things.

Like how you are going to handle a "request" by your partner to ignore an episode of bad behavior..."poof" like it never happened.

Here is the thing...if he can't remember, the of course he would be concerned enough to be evaluated by a psychiatrist to start working on arresting memory loss/dementia.  Right?

Uncomfortable, yet something on the road to a better out come.

Things won't be fixed from this one interaction, but it can be a turning point..for both of you.

Best,

FF

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Ortac, No, you can't switch off your feelings, nor should you.  On the other hand, you can look at your feelings and acknowledge them, without the need to act on them until you decide what is the best course for you.  I wrote:

One day it dawned on me that rescuing is unhealthy because it serves as a way to avoid confronting one's own issues.

What issues of your own, if any, are you trying to avoid?  Now is a good time to practice self-love and self-compassion.

LJ

[ortac77]

FF

Firstly I will not let him 'ignore it' rather restate that I will not be subjected to verbal abuse, that under similar circumstances the result will be the same because I will not be verbally abused in my own home - that if most of the time we can handle those 'day to day' disagreements does he know what causes the rages? Also what does he propose doing about it?

Clue - the likely answers are he doesn't know or that I 'wind him up'.

The first I can't really do much about but the second requires examples.

For my part I get that it is his to solve and I will not make things better by trying to smooth things over, or ignoring my feelings. This is not really about 'me' - substitute anyone who was ever close to him.

I 'think' I know what caused the last outrage, I have been volunteering at the local hospital giving support to the nursing staff, tea and sympathy etc. It's a nice thing to do and has also helped me during the pandemic, support being a two way street. He has always wanted to go into a caring role but has never done anything about it.

I 'think' reviewing some of his rather offhand comments that he resents what I have been doing, sees it as somehow threatening or undermining and has been building up to the rage that was unleashed on Monday.

Now that is me 'thinking' and it's about 'him' and of course I cannot know! In one sense the reasons do not matter because attempts to make me feel bad are not going to work - I have continued volunteering this week and in turning the thoughts back to how I feel.

Uplifted, valued, wanted - and perhaps more importantly acting in a manner consistent with my own values and those are something I am slowly beginning to understand better, its a work in progress - for me..


Now importantly I am having to think long and hard about what I want in my own life going forward, something that hitherto I have always seen as rather selfish ( I know I need some therapeutic help here to understand why my thinking is that self care and doing things I enjoy is selfish)

 As Lucky Jim said "what issues of your own are you trying to avoid?" - Really I cannot at the moment answer that question, hence am availing myself of therapy to help me see the answer to that question.

In the meantime I am getting the 'avoid/silent' treatment, its actually kind of peaceful. It could bother me that he is not eating or taking any care of himself, it does of course but I have to keep reminding myself that he is an adult and those are his choices.

Ortac

[formflier]

What is his status with going to dr regularly?  Has he ever done or is he open to therapy?

Best,

FF

[ortac77]

He has a good Dr - same one as me and she is excellent, I saw her last week to talk about how his actions had shaken me. She is trying to get a psychiatric review organised but of course he has to agree, she thinks he exhibits symptoms of BPD co-morbid with bi-polar and that medication might help along with DBT.

He has not had a formal psychiatric diagnosis for about 8 years when he was diagnosed with BPD and depression.

He had therapy in the past but always 'gives up' when it starts to get difficult, he also tends to misinterpret the therapists intent, for example instead of stating quite simply he would like some space to which I would happily acquiesce he just absents himself and refuses to communicate at all. Having been to a couple of joint sessions with the therapist in the past I know that is not what she has suggested!

They have recently introduced DBT in our area and I am sure he would be eligible.

Sorry long answer to short question

[formflier]

I'm certainly not as familiar with your story as I would like to be, but that's generally what I understood (and why I asked).

Because this is a good thing.   Perhaps better stated, this is a clarifying thing.

We all know there are no certain outcomes in life..right?

And you know what will most likely happen (what your r/s will look like) if YOU decide to allow a "poof" moment, where the dry erase board is wiped clean and it never happened.  Right?  Is there any doubt whatsoever in your mind if YOU deciding to go forward under those conditions (it never happened, I don't remember..etc etc)?

If there is a shred of doubt...then we should stick with that "point" and have a longer discussion.

If there is no doubt, then keep reading.

You can decide to be in a relationship with an unhealthy person or you can decide to leave such a relationship.  You can't decide that the other person will get healthy.  (I would be shocked if you didn't know this on some level, but it's a critical point worth repeating often.)  

So...I recommend you repeat that to yourself...often.

So...you need to get yourself ready to "force a choice".  You also need to practice with us how to go about communicating that choice.

It needs to stay positive as much as possible, yet it also needs to be clear that you are done with THIS RELATIONSHIP as it is being conducted right now.  

You need to be clear that you do what a relationship with our pwBPD, but under vastly different conditions.  That each of you has work to do and that you will respect your pwBPDs choice to not do the work (don't say it that way...we need to work on that).

What does that mean that you will honor or respect an adults decision to be unhealthy?  

There's a lot here.  Likely best to cut this for now and see how all of this is sitting with you.

Best,

FF

[ortac77]

Hi FF

Not allowing a 'poof' moment and in the event he made contact a few hours ago, so to a degree your comments are timely.

I did not say much but stressed that any abusive behaviour is not acceptable to me, no surprise that he said he did not remember what he had done. I did not argue the point just restated that such behaviour is not acceptable to me and that things must change if our relationship is to continue. That requires working together.

I did this calmly and said that I am willing to discuss working better together but that it will need to be on a very different basis and that I would allow him to think about what I have said. For now end of conversation ... no doubt to be continued.

I know I cannot make him get well, it is his choice, I actually do respect his choice to remain unhealthy, I do not need to understand it.

And yes any help in how to progress 'forcing a choice' gratefully received

[formflier]

I did not say much but stressed that any abusive behaviour is not acceptable to me, no surprise that he said he did not remember what he had done. 

Take him at his word.

If he doesn't remember he obviously needs to see his doctor (lucky there) and report to her what has happened (as much as he can remember) and let you fill in the rest.

Stay away from how bad it was.  Focus on that he can't remember.(take him at his word).

If he wants to not remember and not see a doctor...is there a future? 

Seriously...can you live with someone with such untreated memory issues?

If he wants to change his story that he remembers, yet is sorry for the abuse he can show his sorrow by moving forward with doctor/counseling etc etc.

He is in a catch 22...don't let him out.

Best,

FF

[ortac77]

Well after our brief conversation I had a quiet evening - later we spoke again and  he admitted that he remembered the police being called but that he did not remember raging or being verbally abusive.

OK taken at his word.

I repeated that was concerning and that help was available if he asked the Dr as I will not tolerate abuse and if he cannot remember or know what he is doing it could happen again.I again reiterated that I was willing to 'work with him' if he sought proper support.

There was an attempt to get me into a circular argument, so I dis-engaged. There is no room for any logical or balanced discussion on his part at the moment so little point in my trying.

I am pondering how long I let this continue, being a Sunday not much I can do today which naturally gives him another 24 hours to consider. Tomorrow I am going to get some advice - removing him from my home still feels a 'nuclear option' but I will start the process if things continue as they are.

[formflier]

I would recommend staying away from trying to remind or get him to remember "abuse".  (Please understand..I'm not minimizing your experience at all)

Perhaps he remembers, perhaps he doesn't.  I can't imagine him remembering this without an enormous amount of shame and I also can't imagine him dealing with shame in a productive way.

Would you rather him remember and admit or would you rather he doesn't remember and goes to doctor about "memory loss"?

Stick with "taking him at his word".  He doesn't remember large expanses of time..that's a medical issue. 

Of course he would want someone that does remember to be involved and talk to his medical team..(that's you).

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I repeated that was concerning and that help was available if he asked the Dr as I will not tolerate abuse and if he cannot remember or know what he is doing it could happen again.I again reiterated that I was willing to 'work with him' if he sought proper support.

So is this your line in the sand? He either gets medical help and he can stay? Or he doesn't and he has to move out?

[ortac77]

My line in the sand is that I will not tolerate abuse for the simple reason that it could turn to violence, that is why I am now registered as at risk with the Police.

He has had therapy before and it is some time since he has raged like this but he has not continued with the therapy.

As for the memory issue, I can even at one level believe it - selective memory certainly but he has always had an erratic sleep history and I am fairly sure that is part of the problem.

At this point I am acknowledging ( to me)the serious mental disorder  and also my inability to deal with the negative effect it has on me - the Dr is well aware of this. He is not engaging in any meaningful way and it is pointless for me to try as it will only cause me frustration then I am likely to exacerbate matters.

I have told him of my concern, told him I will support him if he asks for help and there it stands for now, I reserve judgement on other steps for the moment but am gathering information and mentally preparing for the alternative.

[formflier]

So if he refuses care for his "memory issues" you will?

I agree with your apparent decision not to "threaten" or explain the consequence of inaction on his point.

There are two different issues.

1.  Your decision going forward.
2.  How you communicate that decision.

Perhaps a third, how you inquire about what he is or isn't willing to do.

Best,

FF

[ortac77]

FF

Long and productive conversation yesterday which my pwBPD initiated and (perhaps) some progress, he is now willing to see the Dr and we are making an appointment.

There is some recognition on his part that that the situation is not one he wants to continue and that although he (perhaps) does not recall the severity of his verbal attack he acknowledges that he does lash out at others without really knowing what it is about then effectively blanks the event.

No ultimatums or consequences discussed on my part - lets see where this goes.

[formflier]

This is a positive development. 

Make plans for it to stay positive and the role you will play and also make plans for "I'm not going to the Dr anymore...there is nothing wrong with me."

Both are equally important.  It would seem important to not "react" and give an ultimatum for the last one.

It does seem important to communicate you are concerned, disappointed and of course will have to ge some deep thought to the future, given the change of plans.  (yes..let it hang there...)

Best,

FF

[ortac77]

So by way of an update we saw the Dr yesterday and she spent a long time talking through his behaviours and mood swings and the apparent 'disassociation' of not remembering. She plans to refer him for psychiatric assessment and in her opinion that whilst he exhibits many symptoms of BPD that there are many elements of bi-polar present and that a better treatment plan may be the way forward.

To be fair he engaged quite well so hopefully this might take place sooner rather than later. She also addressed his various physical ailments with a referral to other specialists.

For me I am being supportive but maintaining a certain 'distance' - no ultimatums but quietly seeing what happens whilst getting on with my own life.