My kids using my ex-husbands words

[SailsAway123]

When I first signed up for this site, our marriage counselor had just told me independently that my then-husband had BPD.  It took me about a year to get out of the relationship, and he's fought for as much time with the kids as possible because he knows thats how to hurt me.  I've gotten enough space and healing to be able to deal with him, when his words come from him.  What crushes me is when he's convinced the kids of something that will obviously hurt me.  They will literally repeat his words (I can hear him in the background) or they will ask for expensive items (awarded to me in the divorce or purchased after) to be moved to his place.  I don't know how to handle those situations, without him putting the kids in the middle or walking all over me.  I also find myself on the verge of tears for days after these encounters with my kids.  During the school year they are with me significantly more, but during the summer we are doing week on/week off and its been very very hard.

[kells76]

Hi SailsAway123, glad you could find us! You're in the right place.

My husband has two kids; older stepdau is 14 (SD14) and younger stepdau is 12 (SD12). We've been married for >7 years, and his kids' mom is likely undiagnosed BPD (uBPD), and her husband seems pretty strongly narcissistic (uNPD).

Does your kids' dad have a diagnosis?

How old are your kids? What was your relationship like with each of them in the past... different now?

Good to hear you've been in counseling. Our marriage counselor has been a huge support. Are you still seeing someone, individually?

I don't know how to handle those situations, without him putting the kids in the middle or walking all over me.

One thing that I read here that will set you apart from the manipulations of your xH is that you DON'T want to put the kids in the middle. As hard as it is to take that high road, keeping your integrity is so important and valuable. Good job having their well-being as your focus.

I also find myself on the verge of tears for days after these encounters with my kids.

As much as I love SD14 & SD12, I get exhausted dealing with whatever drama they drag over from Mom's. Really hard, draining stuff -- I feel you.    People are telling me to do this, so (a) I need to "take my own medicine", and (b) that helps me ask you... what do you do for self care these days?

So much more to talk about -- I think we are on the verge of having a great discussion of stepping out of drama triangles -- but let's start there!

With welcome;

kells76

[SailsAway123]

My son is 11 and my daughter is 8 and I do see my own therapist.  He has undergone some treatment, but it was after we separated so I don't know how formal the diagnosis was beyond what our marriage counselor provided. 

The only way I know to keep the kids out of the middle is to agree to whatever crazy thing his is asking for through them, which does not support me having any boundaries or really model for them how to be a healthy adult.  He frames things in very black and white terms and tells the kids regularly that I have created all their problems.  My son (11 yo) is very susceptible to his dad's influence and is afraid to upset him at everyone else's expense.  But I guess part of my struggle is what is the high road here.  I have no desire to say bad things about their dad to them, but I also know he tells them not to tell me things and undermines their trust in me.  I'm often shooting in the dark to try to figure out why they are acting so wary.

For self care I do a variety of things, I have too much time on my hands when the kids are at his place but I reach out to friends daily, go for walks, do Tai Chi.

[worriedStepmom]

I'm so glad you are taking care of yourself.  This stuff can be so hard.

Do your kids have therapists?  My son started therapy at age 9 and my SD (who has a mom with uBPD) started at age 11.  It has really helped them.

The only way I know to keep the kids out of the middle is to agree to whatever crazy thing his is asking for through them, which does not support me having any boundaries or really model for them how to be a healthy adult.  He frames things in very black and white terms and tells the kids regularly that I have created all their problems. 

What do you think would happen if the kids asked for something and you responded, "That is an adult topic that needs to be discussed between parents.  It's not appropriate for me to have that conversation with you."

The kids will likely push back - you've trained them that you respond to these kinds of things.  You might just repeat yourself once and then tell them you aren't willing to continue to have that conversation, tell them you love them, and hang up.

[Panda39]

What do you think would happen if the kids asked for something and you responded, "That is an adult topic that needs to be discussed between parents.  It's not appropriate for me to have that conversation with you."

WorriedStepmom's response is probably better...I'm not sure if this takes the kids out of the middle or not, but my partner would just tell his kids to have mom contact him about xyz and then they would move on from it.

Honestly, I don't know if the girls ever really had to do that because with their uBPDmom it was usually about what she felt in the moment and then the moment would pass and it was on to the next thing.

Sailsaway, sorry you're going through this stuff too I just wanted you to know you're not alone. 

You could also ask your kid's questions when they come to you parroting their dad...something like...S11 that's a weird thing for you to ask about why do you want to know? Well dad said blah, blah, blah.  Okay then it sounds like I should talk to your dad about that since it's something he really wants to know.

Asking the question makes your kid think for a minute...Yah, why do I want to know that?

Here is a link to information on Raising Resilient Kids that you can checkout and might help... https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.msg1331459#msg1331459

Take Care,
Panda39

[ForeverDad]

the kids ... will ask for expensive items (awarded to me in the divorce or purchased after) to be moved to his place.  I don't know how to handle those situations, without him putting the kids in the middle or walking all over me.

Step back and see this from an outsider's less subjective perspective.  Yes, your ex is the one "putting the kids in the middle".  It's not you, it's him.  That is the value of objective vs subjective.  So rather than being all torn up inside over how to tiptoe around the issue, you can more easily decide how to handle it.  For example, you might choose to state, "Ex got some of our items from the marriage and I got others.  It's in the court order.  Sorry, but unless I see a practical need for a change the answer is No."

So often we write that we need boundaries with the ex.  To a lesser extent it can also apply to the children.  Of course they will ask for more than they need, and in this case it can be the ex planting the idea.

[kells76]

The kids will likely push back - you've trained them that you respond to these kinds of things.  You might just repeat yourself once and then tell them you aren't willing to continue to have that conversation, tell them you love them, and hang up.

SailsAway123, this is a good question -- do the kids say this kind of stuff in person with you, during your time? Or by text? On the phone, while they're at their dad's house?

Panda39 also made a good suggestion about not ignoring these questions from the kids, or immediately caving to their dad's demands, but "calling his bluff", in a way -- if it's SO important to him, then surely he would be fine with working it out with you... right? That's what this sort of reply

it sounds like I should talk to your dad about that since it's something he really wants to know.

could do for you.

You're not giving in or caving to avoid conflict, and you're also not saying you won't talk about it or won't consider it. It buys you some time and puts your kids' dad in the position of "if this is truly something you want, then the door is open for you to pursue that by talking to me". If he doesn't dialogue with you... must not be that important.

[defogging]

This regularly happens to me as well.  We just had an incident over the last couple of days that was interesting, here is how I handled it.

Long story short:  Due to Covid and schedules constantly changing, a conflict arose between my daughters' (7 and 10) activity and a T appointment.  This was during my parenting time, so I made the executive decision that the T appointment was more important and planned to pull D10 out of her activity early so she could see her T.  My ex had previously offered that she could provide transportation for the girls to/from the activity, so I reached out to her to try and coordinate leaving D7 at the activity and have exPDw come to get her.  I received the typical silent treatment and selective miscommunication from exPDw, because she was mad at me that I made the decision that T was more important.

So, due to time constraints I decided I needed to pull both girls out.  I wasn't able to leave one at T and come back and pick up the other.  When I picked up the girls, they were very upset with me.  I heard "Mom says you should have changed the T appointment!", "Mom said she was going to come and get D7!" 

I explained reality to them:
1.  It's not Dad's fault that your activity was rescheduled at the last minute and created a conflict.
2.  In order to change the T appointment, I would have needed to rearrange numerous work meetings and other appointments.  Doing all that wasn't worth the effort.  You will live if you miss one hour of this activity.
3.  I don't care if your Mom told you she would pick D7 up, she never responded to my emails and texts about it so I need to be responsible for ensuring you have a ride.

D10 will speak her mind and continued with "Mom says you never communicate with her!".  I took out my phone and let her read the email I had sent to Mom which detailed exactly when I needed to hear a response or else I was going to pick up both girls.  She got very quiet and tears welled up in her eyes. 

Like ForeverDad said, it is my exPDw putting them in the middle, not me.  I try very hard to keep them out of it, but I also feel zero obligation to cover up their Mom's behavior.  I didn't enjoy showing D10 that email, but I think a bit of the veil was lifted from her eyes in that moment.  This is the first time I had to do that, I had mixed feelings about it.  At the end of the day, I think the kids deserve to know the truth of what is really happening versus being caught in a tug of war by hearing different stories from their parents.

My suggestion for you would be to remove your kids from the middle of it.  Whenever they tell you that you need to do something, remind them that you and their Dad will discuss it and the adults will make the decision.  Tell them they have kid things to be concerned with, and they should not worry about adult things.  Then end it there, no further discussion.

[livednlearned]

It's hard for someone with BPD to imagine the inner emotional lives of significant loved ones. He probably sees the kids as emotionally arrested as he is, lacking much in the way of boundaries or a sense that they are separate from him. So he uses them to get things he wants, among which is a perpetual need to get a one-up on you.

Richard Warshak's book Divorce Poison is a really helpful book to understand this kind of dynamic (among others that will probably begin to surface). Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilients Kids When One Parent Has BPD/NPD by Bill Eddy is also excellent.

It will take your parenting to the next level. Both books help you zoom out to see the bigger picture of what's happening. Your ex, having BPD, pulls you and the kids down into the weeds, a few inches off the ground. Learning specific relationship and communication skills (which are not intuitive, and must be learned) helps you help the kids back up and look at things from 30,000 feet where you can see dad's behavior in a healthier perspective.

"Huh. I wonder why dad would ask you that. This is the second time he's done that. How did you feel when he asked you to say that?"

Those of us who are co-parents with a BPD parent have to learn how to bring everything back to emotional regulation, ours and the kids'. It's tough to ignore the content, but that's part of getting a hold on the emotional kung fu that's going on.

Most of our kids get shorted when it comes to emotional growth. I didn't do a great job naming and labeling emotions for my son, and with a BPD father, he learned to stuff his feelings, which then swung the extreme other way to flooding. He needed a safe parent to help him figure out what these powerful things were, what they were called, how to manage them, and that primarily takes place with emotional validation, which is acknowledging the feelings that our kids have.

At the core of this is us (healthier parent) learning to tolerate their sad feelings so they have faith they can manage their sadness too. I hate being disappointed or let down, and I was very open about that with my son. It hurts when someone tells me no. I also know I'm strong enough to experience those feelings and make it through the other side. He gained confidence watching and listening to me on how to do that, and I reinforced that I believed in his abilities to do that.

Same thing when your kids ask you for something that dad wants them to ask for. What they really want is for someone to make sense of this uncomfortable thing dad is making me them do. Why would someone who loves them do that? They need you to help them figure out what they feel, then get through those feelings.

Don't be afraid to have boundaries with this. Kids begin to lose respect for us when we dismantle the structures that create safe emotional spaces for ourselves. How can they learn how to do this for themselves if we are always taking beams out of our own homes and giving them to someone who treats us badly?

It's a process to learn this stuff, but the skills are amazing and can change your life, not to mention your kids' lives. Small steps, tiny practice sessions. And if/when you mess up, it's ok to have do-overs with the kids. I spent a lot of years going back to conversations with my kid, telling him, "Hey I don't feel good about our last conversation. Here's what I wish I said instead."

He now does that, too.