SD14 tells all our convos to Mom/Stepdad

[kells76]

DH & SD14 had another of their what are coming to be weekly "big issue conversations"; nothing scheduled but things are starting to come up a lot. I wasn't there but got this from DH.

It came out in the conversation that SD14 sees herself as doing "more of the work" than DH in their relationship. She also said that she always is double or triple checking what she is going to say to him/us before she says it (despite recently saying she is committed to stopping self censoring around us), and moreover, she said that whenever she goes back to Mom's, she goes over EVERY conversation that she's had with DH, with both of them. She says "they're like my therapists". The way DH told me, it didn't sound like SD14 had any idea of how inappropriate that situation is.

It feels disgusting and intrusive to know that Mom/Stepdad continue to insert themselves in our relationships with the kids in a detailed way.

I also suspect that they are the source of SD14's feelings of "being the one doing most of the work" -- classic elevation of the child over one parent by the disordered parent. It would not surprise me if they "encouraged" her by telling her "you're doing SO WELL, you're doing EVERYTHING right" type stuff.

I am frustrated and at a loss on how to proceed in a way that D14 can even hear. I don't think she thinks she's doing anything unhealthy, or that Mom/Stepdad are, either.

I thought things were going okay-er for a while... But it seems like it was maybe "smooth sailing" because SD14 was "feeding the beast". Historically, Mom has coveted and misused information for power and control.

It just feels like this isn't a situation where the solution is sitting SD14 down and explaining drama triangles. I wish it were so simple.

Interestingly, she did indicate openness to seeing a counselor with DH. But it's one that Mom OKed in the past. And it does partially feel like a set up for dropping a bomb or something -- "Now that we're in counseling, I'm going to tell you that I'm doing hormone therapy and don't want to see you again" type reveals.

Ugh...

How to navigate knowing that EVERYTHING is getting "analyzed" by uBPD mom and uNPD stepdad...? How to "do" any boundaries? What would they even be?

[Notwendy]

I don't have any advice, it's quite upsetting to see this. I wish I had some to offer.

I do want to share that his is how things are in my BPD mother's world. She sees people as either on "her side or not her side". Those on her side are quite loyal and enmeshed with her. These are grown adults who think it is OK, and so I can only imagine that a 14 year old is quite unaware of this kind of intrusion into privacy and boundaries.

My mother read every email I sent my father and also listened in on our phone calls on the extension ( land lines).

Of course, my father, a grown man, might have chosen to assert his own boundaries with this but he was enmeshed with my mother and it wasn't a boundary.

If I communicate in any way with my mother's relatives, it is all shared with her. I assume that. If I post any pictures of my kids on Facebook, her relatives download them and send them to her, even if I would anyway- she takes victim perspective that I would not.

My mother is paranoid that we are talking about her behind her back. Mostly she's paranoid that we might reveal the secrets of her dysfunction to others. We were not allowed to speak negatively about her in any way as children or tell anyone about her behavior. By checking and listening to all communications, she monitors this.

I don't know what to say about your daughter. This is triangulation, manipulation and control. At 14 she can't recognize this. It's a bit cult like. I wish I knew what would be effective for this but I do agree with your feelings about it.

[GaGrl]

Yes, triangulation, manipulation, and control.

SD14 certainly is attempting to realize her true self, and she needs to be supported in doing so. However, how much of her work is being directed toward gender identification as opposed to work that individuates her from both of her parents. That would seem to be equally important right now. I wish I had done counseling around that at age 14 -- it would have kept me out of some had decisions.

The other thought I had was how much of the recounting is related to her relationship with DH versus "stuff" in the household that should remain private (marriage interactions, etc.). SD14 may not have boundaries regarding any level of privacy.

I'm sorry I don't have advice -- just some musings.

[kells76]

I can only imagine that a 14 year old is quite unaware of this kind of intrusion into privacy and boundaries... This is triangulation, manipulation and control. At 14 she can't recognize this. It's a bit cult like

And I suspect that she would be shattered if it became clear to her how dysfunctional, hurtful, and unhealthy it is. I don't think she can allow herself to know at this stage that it isn't OK... because of what that would mean about Mom/Stepdad.

She is also being "told" (whether explicitly or tacitly) that she is "advanced" and "aware" and "insightful" and "wise". So, if she is all those things, then "surely she would see if something was unhealthy, so if it doesn't seem unhealthy, it can't be" -- would be how I would construct her current self view.

So she also can't allow herself to see the unhealthiness of what Mom/Stepdad are doing because it compounds... it means she didn't recognize it, which means that THEY have misinformed her and she isn't really wise/advanced/insightful.

my father, a grown man, might have chosen to assert his own boundaries with this but he was enmeshed with my mother and it wasn't a boundary.

That's a big question. What would it look like to assert some boundaries here? If SD14 were an adult, things might look a little different: "Honey, I value my privacy, so I don't tell you X Y and Z about myself, because it seems like that info ends up back with Mom."

SD14 is a child, though, and both (a) needs that close relationship with DH, and (b) has been placed in what on the face of it is a "no win" situation. Either DH keeps having a close sharing relationship with her -- which she needs -- and the price is that DH is exposed to Mom/Stepdad, or DH quietly stops sharing personal stuff with her... and the relationship withers.

Stepping back, I get that it probably isn't an "either or" situation... but I suspect that's what Mom/Stepdad want.

How do we skillfully exit the roles that they're trying to rope us into (either "cold, closed off, hurtful, not working on relationship with kids" or "sure, you can have a relationship with the kids... and here's the cost -- pay us in control, micromanagement, exposure, etc") without hurting the kids?

However, how much of her work is being directed toward gender identification as opposed to work that individuates her from both of her parents. That would seem to be equally important right now.

I suspect most of the "work" she gets applauded for at Mom's is either political/gender oriented, or recounting how she did talking to DH. I think any encouragement to individuate from parents would be extremely lopsided, where she's being told she's individuating from DH and how wonderful and healthy that is... but is tacitly encouraged to "stay close" to Mom/Stepdad, or things that aren't really individuation are being told to her that they are (i.e., tacitly: Mom would be thrilled if you were involved in gender politics... explicitly: oh wow, you are SO independent and grown up for being involved in gender politics).

how much of the recounting is related to her relationship with DH versus "stuff" in the household that should remain private (marriage interactions, etc.). SD14 may not have boundaries regarding any level of privacy.

So, interestingly, she told DH that she was uncomfortable because she didn't see him and I work through a conflict we had in front of the kids (like, LOW level stuff -- no yelling or even raised voices). DH has nominally shared with SD14 that he and I work through conflict differently, that we just have a different style. I think all of Mom/Stepdad's relational stuff is out in the open at Mom's.

...

I am not sure how to get out of this setup.

[Notwendy]

I don't know either. I hope it helps to share my experiences at her age with a BPD mother to get the sense of what she is dealing with. Even if people are different (BPD isn't the same) boundaries, triangulation and control seem to be common ground.

Boundaries are a huge issue, and they affect everything, relationships, sexuality. I have read that parents with PD's don't think of their children as individuals but rather as extensions of themselves.

It's interesting as my BPD mother wasn't much of a problem like this with my own kids when they were little, but it became a problem when they became adolescents. My mother would not outwardly harm them, but the boundaries became an isssue- perhaps as they were developing theirs on the steps to adulthood.

This is not an easy step for a parent who doesn't have BPD. Teens, in their path to assert who they are can push hard against who their parents are. They don't know who they are, but they know they are not their parents. There were quite a few tears on my end when my kids were teens, but as an adult, I knew they needed a parent with a strong sense of self to push against. They also need to be secure that they are uncondisionally loved to have the courage to grow in their own way. Mine know they are unconditionally loved.

This doesn't happen with a BPD mother. I could not push against her ( not in a bad way but assert who I was) or be "cast out" of her approval ( and she's take Dad's with it) and that is scary.  Love and approval was conditional on being what they wanted me to be. I didn't develop a firm sense of self, I was insecure and a people pleaser. I had to be that to survive.

At 14, BPD mother treated me as a confidant, I was parentified and expected to be an adult before I was developmentally able to. Because of this, I did act older and wiser than my age in some ways but wasn't able to be in other ways. I didn't dare make a mistake, there would not be anyone capable of breaking that fall, so I wasn't a risk taker.

Mom confided in me with way TMI and it somehow felt privileged and I got to feel special at these times.

My mother got way too much involved with my sexual development, both by confiding TMI in me and telling me how I should behave with boys. I didn't date a lot but she seemed very invested in that somehow.

She triangulated me with my father in all kinds of ways, the two of them against me or me and her against him.

When my own kids approached 14, I set boundaries. I made sure they were not alone with her. She would try to lure one of them off - "I have something to show you". She would not have done something blatant with them, but it would be an opportunity to triangulate them with me and she tries. I also didn't want her to share or encourage them to share TMI over anything sexual. So the rule I had with them was to always be together when visiting her and not ever go off with her alone. They were fine with that.

But this is S14's mother. I don't think you have any control of what goes on on her end. So my advice is the same as always:
Be a role model for healthy relationships.
Respect her boundaries
Love her unconditionally
Know that anything you say to her will be reported back

Sometimes I think actions say more than anything. And having an example of what not dysfunctional looks like might be the biggest influence at all.

You are a great example and you don't know the outcome of that. The role models I had growing up- my Dad's family, my friends' mothers made more of an impact than they know.

[zachira]

With teenagers, less communication and quality of communication are important. You can tell your SD14 some simple things in one sentence that will make an impression on her even though it may not seem like it at the time. I am sure she will be more open and receptive to what you have to say than the interrogations of what you and your husband talk about.

[kells76]

You can tell your SD14 some simple things in one sentence that will make an impression on her

What sorts of things did you have in mind?

...

I think what's confusing about this situation to me is that back in the day, when SD14 was more like SD7 through SD11, the inappropriateness from Mom/Stepdad would show up as resistance in SD14 -- "I don't want to come over, I don't want to see you, you're not my family". So, it was easier to connect the dots between cross-generational coalition, inverted family hierarchy, and resistant child behavior.

What's harder to put together is that there is still the cross-generational coalition: SD14 tells Mom/Stepdad about her conversations with DH, so they are all together (likely with SD14 on the same level). And there's still the inverted family hierarchy: I'm assuming if SD14 is getting the idea that "she's doing all the work/more of the work", that concept is coming from Mom/Stepdad telling her "you're doing SO WELL, you did EVERYTHING right in that conversation"... (with tacit implications that the three of them see that DH didn't do well and didn't do everything right -- DH is to be judged). But the way it's showing up isn't that explicit resistance.

It's like -- how do I even explain to SD14 (don't worry, I won't actually JADE/explain anything, probably  ) that just because you still come over and we have pleasant times together doesn't make what Mom/Stepdad do OK.

...

Just not sure if it's worth it to call things out explicitly right now. Not sure if SD14 could process it, or if it'd help her stop engaging in the dysfunction at Mom's. It feels like if DH or I said something like "Hey, let's try something with our conversations. After we have a conversation, if you want to analyze it, let's do that together. If we're not together, call me on the phone, and we'll talk it out. If you want to analyze our stuff but not with me, let's find a counselor you can talk to about you and me. It's really important that if there's work for us to do with our interactions, that WE're the ones doing it."

I am not sure how to go down the rabbit hole of if she says "But sometimes there's stuff where I want someone else to look at our interactions, and I trust Mom, so why don't you want me to talk to her?" It seems like a setup for "Oh, well, DH and kells76 don't trust Mom/Stepdad, but they TOTALLY trust DH/kells76, so DH and kells76 are the ones with the trust problem".

[Notwendy]

From my own experience, you have to assume that everything you say to D14 gets back to her mother (and it sounds like her stepfather is all in sinc (ie enmeshed enabler) with her).

It took me a while to realize that my mother's "pack" acts like one person. They are all enmeshed with each other and pledge loyalty to her wishes. I don't really understand why anyone would want to be doing that, but it must work for them, because they bring everything to her and get their reward of her approval and attention. Your D is only 14 and I know she craves this. I also wanted some kernel of approval from my parents at that age ( and beyond).

The cost of going against this queen of the BPD hive is high. It's exile. You are banished until you beg for forgiveness and you just might get that momentarily, but what you will likely not get is forgetting it as what terrible transgression you did will be repeated to everyone she knows and brought up to you for years to come. D 14 knows this and can not risk it.

So there is a high reward for bringing the opportunity for BPD mother to take victim position and have her family rescue her and that opportunity will be anything negative you might say about her. And while it may only be some words, please keep in mind that BPD mother will react as if it were the crime of the century. I have fallen into that dysfunctional sandtrap many times by trying to confide in my father.

My warning to you is don't feed this insatiable triangle of dysfunction. Her perception of you and your H as persecutor fills her need to take victim role and her husband's need to play rescuer because that's the pattern that fills both their emotional needs.

D 14 is the perfect link in this because, you and your H are attached to her. Of course you are and this emotional attachment gives them this power.

This might sound like crazy talk to you but I also was an accessory to my parents in this pattern and anything I said to agravate my mother set me in persecutor role and fueled their relationship pattern.

If I had any idea that every word I said to my father would get back to my mother, I would have avoided a lot of drama. So the best I can do is tell you don't say one negative thing about BPD mom to your D, it will never be forgotten or forgiven and she will likely react by separating you from D 14 even more.

Again, the biggest influence on me was other mothers. They were not even aware of the fact that they were showing me what "normal is" and in time, I learned that what I was experiencing with BPD mother was something different than what other mothers did. And when I became a mother myself, I had role models to follow. Also - unconditional love. I felt safe with them. At home, I walked on eggshells.

I know it is hard to see this child get so confused now but you can't predict the long term outcome of your example and unconditonal love, but from my own experience it's huge, and positive.

[kells76]

My warning to you is don't feed this insatiable triangle of dysfunction. Her perception of you and your H as persecutor fills her need to take victim role and her husband's need to play rescuer because that's the pattern that fills both their emotional needs.

D 14 is the perfect link in this because, you and your H are attached to her. Of course you are and this emotional attachment gives them this power.

I am with you on not feeding the dysfunction. I definitely see that refraining from saying anything remotely negative about Mom/Stepdad to SD14 will help in that. At least, it'll cut off one type of supply (SD retelling anything negative from DH about Mom back to Mom).

It does leave the other type of supply -- the interactions between SD & DH for SD to feed back to Mom/Stepdad. I don't know if there's anything we can do differently there. DH could be Mother Teresa plus MLK Jr plus the Dalai Lama and I'm sure Stepdad would find a way to put him down and elevate himself (and SD14, as part of his "loving real dad/hero" role).

So, Notwendy, if I'm tracking with you, you're saying -- as you reflect back on your experience --

-Assume anything we say to or around the kids goes back to Mom/Stepdad
-SD14 is likely doing this (a) to survive/get needs met, and (b) with no awareness of the dysfunction
-Don't stop being emotionally connected to SD14

#1 I guess is not that surprising. I'd hoped SD14 had stopped but apparently not.

#2 is also cognitively understandable. I'm not mad at SD14 -- I get that she's doing what she feels like she has to do, whether she knows it or not.

I think it's #3 where I'm having the toughest time figuring out how that will look concretely. Would it just look like "Screw it, we're still going to talk normally with the kids, because there is literally nothing we can do about Mom/Stepdad's psychic intrusiveness"?

This might sound like crazy talk to you

I only wish it did 

[zachira]

How you say it and what you say can make a big difference. Saying nothing implies you agree with your SD sharing your private info with her mom and stepdad. For example, you might say some things are private, and give her an example that has nothing to do with what is going on in your home. My father's family was a toxic sewer of trashing the family's scapegoats. One of the members who had married into the family was very self assured and kind in the way she said things, and told certain family members that she did not want anybody talking badly about her children's grandmother in front of them, and it worked. The book "Divorce Poison" which is about parent alienation, goes against the advice of never saying anything negative about the other parent. I have found that short statements about the family members who are smearing me, helps a great deal.
Also, the example you are setting, makes a big difference in the long run, and I am sure you are a good example for your SD.

[Notwendy]

Kells, I think you have it right, that D14 is going to tell them everything. And also correct that it isn't her fault. That's her "normal" over there. Our families set the "norm" and for me, I had to learn what "normal" or functional really was. That is where having other mothers as role models made the difference. I saw how things were in my house and how they were in other houses. SD 14 will too. It also took some work ( counseling, 12 step groups) as an adult as well.

A good general rule is to make things about me, not my mother. My kids are older now and understand what is going on with her, but instead of saying " my mother did this" I say "I am working on how to manage the relationship by going to a counselor" so that role models that it's OK to ask for help if you need it.

I see Zachira's point about not showing compliance with D 14 telling her mother everything but wonder if you can make the role modeling about you, not the mother. You might say " my friend told me something in confidence so I'm going to keep that confidence" or something like that, to show that it is possible. Or if D14 is upset about something you might say " I am here if you want to talk but it's OK if you want to keep this to yourself" to reinforce that we don't have to tell everything. But I would still keep her mother out of any discussions as they all will go back to her.

I took the long game with my mother's FOO, but I felt it was the only thing I could do. BPD mom was angry at me when my father died and "ordered" her extended family to not speak to me and they complied. It was really shocking- my father had just died and not one call or card from them and if I tried to contact them, curt replies. One of them replied back "if you contact me again, I will tell your mother. She also told them lies about me.

So I decided, there really was nothing I could say about this to defend myself without looking bad, they would not know who to believe and they would believe her. So I left it alone- got off that drama triangle. I would run into them at a few family occasions and was cordial, polite, but distant. As time went on, they spent more time with my mother and I think began to see some cracks in the facade- and I think they then began to question what she has said to them. At one point, one of them reached out to me to try to get the relationship back on track. I remain wary and they would not admit it but I think they have realized the issue is with her. But for a long time, they believed it was me.

Just like your situation, I think it is the contrast in what is being said and what D14 sees that can make the difference. I don't know what my mother said about me but what they saw was someone acting calm and polite with them, not badmouthing her and leading a pretty ordinary life- raising kids, working. Not the usual picture of a lunatic I guess.

I think D14 will see this too. I get that your H could be a saint and they would speak about him as if he were the worst criminal on the planet. It's about their need for a persecutor. It's the same with me and it still goes on. I can visit her, bring gifts, help her out but she will find the one thing I didn't do and make that the issue. Over time, D14 will start to think " if Dad is so horrible, why is it that he's fun to be around" " If Kells is so horrible why is she so nice to me?"

[GaGrl]

I'm not sure how to approach it, but it seems SD14 needs some work around the differences among privacy, secrets, and oversharing. At 14, there will come a time she wants her privacy, and she's not being allowed to have it now.

[Notwendy]

I agree Ga Girl, but I don't know how to intervene when she is subjected to the rules at her mother's house other than to provide an appropriate environment and example in Kell's house.

The oversharing/secret/no privacy is part of larger boundary issues when all family members are enmeshed and enlisted at BPD mom's emotional caretakers.

Learning I was allowed to have boundaries and even being able to asert this in my home growing up was not even possible when I was living at home and even hard to do once I left home. I wasn't truly able to have boundaries until I was no longer financially dependent on my parents, as they would use that for control. And even after that the consequences of having boundaries with my mother were punitive.

D14 needs to be able to function when she's with BPD mom and this may be what she needs to do to get by.

Thankfully she has some respite of normalcy when she's at Kell's.

With my own kids it was a matter of reinforcing their own boundaries as they matured. At one point they didn't want to change clothes in front of mom anymore, so they had privacy with that. Then it was not sharing everything with me, and I was OK with that ( but would have intervened if I suspected any problems) . Kids are pretty smart about learning to adapt to two homes with two sets of rules, and at least one of them won't be dysfunctional.

In an odd way, it is better to let some information pass on, because absence of information gets filled in with imagination. The times I have not discussed anything with BPD mom - then she would make things up that were pretty wild. So- this was not about controlling or managing her, but I decided that if something wasn't really private, to just give the information over to her and not be concerned about what she did with it.

It's important to keep privacy but I am sure a lot that goes on at Kells is probably not scandalous  . So if D14 reports they had hamburgers for dinner and watched a movie on Netflix, and talked about it, it's not that big a deal.

[kells76]

SD14 needs some work around the differences among privacy, secrets, and oversharing.

I agree Ga Girl, but I don't know how to intervene when she is subjected to the rules at her mother's house other than to provide an appropriate environment and example in Kell's house.

The oversharing/secret/no privacy is part of larger boundary issues when all family members are enmeshed and enlisted at BPD mom's emotional caretakers.

Right -- that's the pickle. DH and I see the dysfunction, porous boundaries, unhealthiness, etc, of what Mom/Stepdad are doing. So, we see, like Gagrl said, that SD14 REALLY needs some work there.

And we also see that due to the enmeshment/role stabilization stuff at Mom's, SD14 right now can't see, or can't allow herself to see, the dysfunction and unhealthiness.

If SD14 could let herself see it, and the issue was just "DH and I support you, now let's help you figure out how to manage at Mom's", that would be different.

The sticking point is how do DH and I manage when SD14 can't/won't see the dysfunction.

...

Notwendy, were you ever defensive of "how things were with your mom"? I think that could be a hangup for SD14 -- though perhaps for her, the hangup would be that she would be defensive of Stepdad the most (at this point).

...

It's important to keep privacy but I am sure a lot that goes on at Kells is probably not scandalous  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). So if D14 reports they had hamburgers for dinner and watched a movie on Netflix, and talked about it, it's not that big a deal.

My "spirit color" is probably gray    so yeah, pretty boring. The kids have seen me sort twisty ties. I had some, uh, on-the-record wild times in the past, but that's old news to the kids and those parts of my past carry little leverage/weight for me now.

Again, I get that part and parcel of a 2 household family is that stuff gets talked about back and forth. So, it's not the quotidian "we got a cat at Dad's today!" stuff that I care about getting back to Mom. It's the "Here's the emotional, personal stuff that Dad and I talked about, about the past, and the divorce, and why he decided to divorce, and me and my gender identity, and he said he wouldn't do X for me that I wanted but then he said he'd do Y, and I cried, and he didn't". It's THAT stuff going back to Mom/Stepdad that bugs me, because it's SO not about helping the kids. It's about using the kids as, like Notwendy said, "enmeshed and enlisted family members" to nurture Mom/Stepdad in their cherished roles.

I know it probably sounds like I'm just circling the same topic over and over. I feel it, too. I feel like I'm circling this problem looking for a breakthrough, and I'm just coming up empty, or, mostly empty right now.

[zachira]

It may feel like you are coming up empty now in resolving this problem, however there is probably no way to know right now how you are making small yet big differences in the kind of choices your SD14 will make in life. I was raised by a mother with BPD. Small acts of kindness from sometimes people I barely knew made a big difference for me, seeing that I was indeed a worthy person. The love and support, I received from some of my scapegoated aunts and uncle helped as well. You and your husband are likely making a big difference in how your SD14 will turn out, and you may not see this for a long time.

[Notwendy]

Kells, I think my position in the family with my mother was a bit different- I was not her favorite child, and I was more attached to my dad. By the time I was 14, I knew something was going on. Her behavior seems more outrageous that your SD14's mom, but any dysfunction is not good.

For people who knew what was going on at my home ( very few, I confided in a few close friends who I trusted to not get back to her) I was not defensive if anyone said critical things about her. I did too.

But for people who didn't know, I feared that if they knew, they would somehow not like me- as if somehow her behavior was a reflection of me. I was very afraid of rejection and became a people pleaser. Also when I do talk critically about her, it just feels unatural, ethically.  However if someone else observed her behavior and commented, I felt validated. But you can't do that and stay off the drama triangle.

I do know people who feel a sense of "disloyalty to the family" if someone talks about a family member, but I didn't feel disloyal, just fearful.  

I want to emphazise what Zachira said. I once told an aunt ( on my father's side who knew about my mother )how much she did for me and her response was "it was nothing, I wish I did more". I understand that because what she did didn't seem like any effort- it came naturally to her. Basically she treated me like she did her own children. She loved me unconditionally and this included gentle discipline when my cousins and I got into mischief. (Don't be afraid to have boundaries and enforce them. They are important, but you know the difference between discipline for children in a positive and loving way and the kind that is not.) She cooked meals for me, took me shopping for cool clothes when I was a teen. So maybe these things don't feel heroic to you, but over time, they make all the difference.

[worriedStepmom]

I think the best course of action is to get her a therapist.

"SD14, I hear that you need someone to help you process your feelings about our relationship.   That's great that you recognize that this is useful for you!  Let's find someone who specializes in this and can be a neutral safe space for you to talk."

If she is still working through her gender identity, it's even more crucial that she be seeing a therapist. 

At home, work on boundaries.  I lead by example with SD13.  My mom is very enmeshed with my sister and tries to do the same with me.  So at dinner I might talk about how "Nana called and said X, Y, Z.  It really bugs me because of A, so I told her that I love her, but that's not her business."  We never badmouth Nana (they know I love my mom to pieces), but we talk about how it's important to keep a line between what's ours and what's hers to deal with.  This has helped SD13 - boundaries are for everyone (not just a punishment for her mom) and I'm actively showing her how to recognize when you need them and set one.  If you have to, make up situations and tell her about them.

We back up the kids, and praise them, when they set boundaries with us and each other, too.  "Your sister told you that she didn't want to talk about X at dinner.  It wasn't nice of you to disregard her wishes.  Sis, I'm glad you were able to put into words what you needed."  or, kid 1 says "I don't want to talk to you right now!" and we say "Okay, I can respect that.  When you are open to talking, come find me."  And then we leave them alone until they are ready  (uBPDmom cANNOT do that - she nags SD13).

That kind of thing goes a long way.

[livednlearned]

I agree with worriedStepmom -- I'm not sure how you thread this needle without a therapist involved. The triangle is so tight 

It's like the best-case scenario is that you don't inflame the situation, which is a hard way to live when you're trying to be a good, loving influence. Ugh.

I guess what I wonder with you situation is whether you prioritize healthy boundaries (protect you and H) at the ... expense? is that the right way to think of it? ... of countering the ickiness of what's happening with BPD mom/Nstepdad.

I will say this. Stuff changes so much during the teen years and into the young adult stages.

It could be that patience wins the day on this. Eventually SD14 will discover that this attention she's getting is conditional based on her triangulation between both sets of parents, and it's not going to feel good.

My instinct would be to starve the beast tho I know that's easier said than done. I had to do that with SD23 and it was no walk in the park, and she was a young adult (versus 14) which minimized the amount of interaction I had to have with her mom. And being the rejected parents, I do think our husbands have a much tougher time having boundaries because the connection feels so tenuous given the BPD pathology weathering it away. So you end up being the firewall for two people without having much in the way of support (understandably, imo).

The freeway of information going from our house to uBPD mom via SD23 was horrifying to me, but uBPD mom doesn't live in our community and I didn't have to co-parent a minor with her. It also seems like your mom/stepdad duo have a slick cool factor in play that they are using to kind of hog tie you. Like if you have healthy boundaries, then you're not cool/good/wise.

 

[kells76]

I think the best course of action is to get her a therapist.

Yup. DH set up a T appt for him and SD14 next week. We dread Mom's intrusive involvement, but it's probably a given.

...

The other day I got home from work and it was just me and SD14. Started talking about average stuff -- movies, movie characters, etc. Typically I don't do deep dives on abstract topics with her, but one thing led to another. Soon we were talking about the idea of "what if you could press a button and feel instantly happy, would you do it, should people do it, etc". She started going down the road of "as long as it makes you happy, it would be good, I wouldn't do it because I would miss human connection, but for some people it should be an option, after all who are we to judge someone else's life". I did some light "well, what if this, what if that, I don't buy that way of looking at it, what about X" type stuff, along with "that is exactly the question you should be asking in order to keep figuring this out" type statements. That somehow led to her (remember... age 14...) asserting "sex workers shouldn't be judged, it's just another way of having a job" stuff -- wouldn't be surprised if it's straight from Mom/Stepdad. Not that that isn't a conversation to have, but it's not my first rodeo, and it seemed clear that this wasn't about SD14 examining different ways of looking at a controversial topic, but rather pushing the most provocative thing she could think of and trying to get a reaction.

So, anyway, that led to her telling me about the issues she and DH were having, how she just wants "space to talk about her ideas" and that "even if you don't agree, that you see that my idea is valid". She kept talking about how she wants DH to listen to her, and she doesn't feel like he is, and  "she can tell the difference between being FELT like she's being listened to and ACTUALLY being listened to".

I can't remember exactly how I phrased it, but I think I said something like "I'm not sure I'm the best person for you to talk to about this". The example I gave was: imagine I have a friend A, and there's some stuff going on in my relationship with A. I also have this friend B. I go to friend B and start telling them all about the stuff that's going on with A. Well, what's happening is that all my energy isn't going to working on my relationship with A, it's going to feeding my relationship with B. Which is neither here nor there, necessarily; sometimes we do that. But I think I said "I don't want to suck the energy away from going in to you and Dad working on your relationship". I mentioned that what a professional will do is different, it's more like a mirror, reflecting that energy back onto the original relationship. I said I supported her and Dad talking with a professional and having a healthy relationship.

She made one last "pushback" move of "But if it's a mirror, then it's just showing me what I already see about myself", so I told her Look, what makes an analogy an analogy is that by definition it breaks down at some point. She didn't fight that one. By that point she was kind of teary, and said she felt responsible for how their relationship was going. I was getting REALLY tired so I think I may have just reflected "OK, so because you are one part of the relationship, you feel responsible for it". That was about as far as we got. I asked her how I could care about her right now, and she didn't know. She mentioned wanting to hang out with a friend but knew it wasn't going to happen, then thought maybe watching something. She said she was bad at self care.

We went to the dvd place and she was debating between 2 movies. I suggested she check in with herself and decide if she needed something more intense or more chill. She chose the "chill" one and I told her she did a great job of self care, in terms of seeing what she needed and deciding based on that.

A couple days later I said Hey, just checking in on our conversation from the other day... anything else you'd like me to know? She said Nope. I pushed a bit and said I know that sometimes when something isn't resolved, you really want to have it resolved... anything you want to go back over? And she said Nope. Pretty closed down. I let it go, and we talked about other stuff.

...

I know -- I KNOW -- that I can't determine whether a move I made was helpful/healthy based on SD14's response. But I am struggling because I feel like I have just sent her back to Mom/Stepdad to talk about DH. I wonder whether I could somehow listen/be open to her talking about DH without it being a triangle. I feel like I was pretty rigid and shut that door on her, and while long term it may be good, short term I wonder if it is painful to her, because she just got done telling me how she wanted to be listened to, and she may experience that as "I just told kells76 I want to be heard, and kells76 shut me down and didn't listen to me".

...

My instinct would be to starve the beast tho I know that's easier said than done.

DH and I are at least on the same page there. I shared that idea with him -- that while we can't stop everything from going back to Mom/Stepdad, we can at least starve them of hearing anything negative/complain-y about themselves. That much we can control.

[livednlearned]

I am struggling because I feel like I have just sent her back to Mom/Stepdad to talk about DH. I wonder whether I could somehow listen/be open to her talking about DH without it being a triangle. I feel like I was pretty rigid and shut that door on her, and while long term it may be good, short term I wonder if it is painful to her, because she just got done telling me how she wanted to be listened to, and she may experience that as "I just told kells76 I want to be heard, and kells76 shut me down and didn't listen to me".

I don't know... maybe my irritation with SD23 is at work here ... but I feel people have to earn trust. And SD14 isn't trustworthy. At least not now. There are good explanations for why she isn't trustworthy, but bottom line is that she's running back to mom and step dad with all this info about you, getting all this attention and what seems to me like a warped and inverted sense of self-importance in her mom's family dynamic (that bleeds into your dynamic).

She's gotta be in triangle heaven here.

You did a great job demonstrating a boundary and then explaining it through the example you gave.

She didn't like the boundary. Most people don't like them. Especially when they're trying to roll over them.

I didn't get out from under the stuff with SD23 until I started to have similar kinds of boundaries. And it was awkward for a while, and I felt so unsure whether I was doing it right.

With you and SD14, it seemed to invite some pain when you checked in with her after the fact (?). She seemed to find an opening to punish you (with Nope).

[worriedStepmom]

Kells, I think you did fine.

You can't control how SD14 experiences conversations, and, right now, she's being trained to "experience" them in an unhealthy way.

It's not like you completely shut her down.  You validated SD14 - that it's hard when you feel like you're responsible for the relationship. You acknowledged and validated that their relationship may need more help.  Then you suggested a healthy way of getting that assistance and explained why the triangulation was unhealthy.

You are playing the long game, which means there may be some short-term issues.

[Notwendy]

Teen agers can vary in their moods.

I also think it's a long run, there will likely be hiccups in the short run. You've been consistent and caring and that is important. You are doing the important things- don't be hard on yourself.

It's a fine line between having conversations with her that don't include her father and triangulation. I think it's important for her to know that you won't keep confidences that are concerning or harmful, but she might just want to run some things by you as you are a female role model.

If my children have a question about dating, or some other topic that doesn't have a serious consequence, I don't necessarily tell it to my H. What I do is encourage them to tell him themselves, if he needs to know. He doesn't need to know if someone has a crush on someone. That could be in the moment. For that, they just need me to listen.

When your D 14 says " I need to have Dad listen, just not appear he is listening" even if it came from the mother/stepdad, perhaps there's a way to validate " I understand this is important to you and think your father would want to hear you out. How can I help you tell him?" . This then shift the discussion from talking about Dad to her- what would help you share your feelings?"

This also keeps you from "doing her work" of the relationship with her father by telling him and helps her to learn how to have this kind of discussion.

Please don't be hard on yourself. The teenage years can be a challenge. I stumbled and then picked back up, made some mistakes, did some things right. But you are giving your D14 consistency and love.