Is this Gaslighting or does it have merit?

[RestlessWanderer]

Hi there. I’m seeking advice on whether or not there’s anything to something my wife said to me. My wife (undiagnosed BPD) has called me this quite a bit. I think it’s her attempt to gaslight me and trigger me into another argument. So this is what happened earlier today, it’s similar to other instances as well. My 7yo was putting on his shoes but didn’t want to tie them. He’s been learning to do it, but often opts for flip flops or Velcro shoes. Sometimes he’s eager to practice and show he can do it but other times he doesn’t give much of an effort. This morning as I was getting him to do it himself my wife called me into the other room. He came in a moment later and complained that I wouldn’t help him tie his shoes and was making him do it even though he tried and couldn’t. (Unfortunately it seems he’s starting to learn that he can trigger mom to get what he wants when dad says no). I tried to explain that he doesn’t do it enough and needs to practice more, that’s why it’s hard sometimes. My wife immediately steps in and helps him out and feeds off his frustration with me. I walked out of the room sensing insults and name calling on the horizon. I also felt myself being triggered so I walked away to de-escalate.
I sat on the couch and hoped it would blow over. But moments later my wife walked in and started saying “Why do you do that? Why do you get so upset? You’re so entitled. You don’t get your way so you storm off like a little kid. You are so entitled because you’ve never been responsible, you always get your way.” As soon as she started this I got up and walked out. The only thing I said back was “I’m walking away because I don’t want to argue. Our son doesn’t need to hear us arguing again.” But she followed me outside and continued to tell me off and call me entitled.
When I think of someone acting entitled, I picture someone who can misbehave or act irresponsibly and foolishly and expect no consequences or at least expect someone to bail them out of trouble. Am I off the mark here? Was I acting entitled by walking out frustrated when my wife wouldn’t support me in having my son tie his shoes on his own and not be bailed out because he didn’t want to try?
She is constantly telling me that he needs to do things like this for himself, otherwise he won’t learn. Yet again, the moment I do that she changes her tune and swoops in the hero to help him out.
I realize how petty and ridiculous this whole thing seems. A child didn’t want to tie their shoes and I wanted him to try so he could get better. I tried to be encouraging and positive despite his efforts to push back and refuse to do it. Then everything spiraled out of control the moment my wife got involved.
So does it sound like I’m acting entitled or being gaslighted? I certainly don’t want to act entitled so I will work to change that if that’s truly the case.

[formflier]

Hmm..

I'm going to say neither. 

I think you did the right thing by walking away.  I'm curious about what happened when she followed and apparently you listened.

Can you tell me more about that?

When one partner says they need a break and the other partner denies them a break to recenter...that's very serious...very serious. (but I want to make sure I understand the dynamic correctly before continuing.)

OH...back to your question. 

1. No..you were not acting entitled.
2.  Gaslighting is complicated and I don't like the term.  Most likely she was "projecting".  Complicated issue that is likely best let until much later to discuss.


Best,

FF

[Football2000]

My opinion is that regardless of whether you were 'entitled' or not, it's not right for her to be labeling you. Instead, she should say "when you do this, I feel this", using I statements. Maybe the reason why she said that is because she's been feeling resentment about a class of behaviours, some of which you might have to change, but that's on her to actually explain that and not let it vent out opaquely.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi RestlessWanderer, while I can't know the full dynamic between you and your wife, and I can share that my BDPw would gaslight me about my childcare from day one. I used to deeply internalize it, but a while back I saw that it was much more about projecting her own insecurities as a parent.

I'm 100 percent on board with FF that not letting you take a break from an argument is very NOT ok and something I suffered from very deeply. Even if she follows you out the door, what would happen if you kept walking?

~ROE

[start_again]

Hello Friend,

I get similar treatment from my wife.  She says one thing and when I follow her wishes she starts in that I am doing the wrong thing.  Not specific to childcare right now however the same behavior. 

Respecting ones desire to separate from the intensity should be honored.  I usually leave the scene and take a walk down the street.  My wife will follow me out the door yelling at me.  She is the only person I know who can yell at me as I am walking away and at the same time wave to the neighbors and smile - can’t make this stuff up.

I have to leave the scene in order to not blow a gasket myself.   Most times when I return it is like nothing even happened until two days later I am getting the business about my leaving the scene to take a break. 

For me the labels my wife identifies me with when I leave or for other things I do are no longer important to me today, tomorrow might be different. I know better they are not true.  What is important for me is not to respond negatively to the name calling.

My children are grown up and I gave up a long time ago the dynamics of mommy making daddy look bad.   From some reason it is important that my wife quarterback all the family dynamics except the financial end.  I had no say and was relegated to providing and paying the bills. 

From what little I know is seems to me that it is a control issue with my wife.  From my experiences - when one grows up in an environment where there is constant unpredictable behavior (I put 2 + 2 together) that child then grows up with a strong desire to control. Once I realized this through counseling I was better able to manage my responses.   Set a good example, do the next right thing, support the decisions are some of the responses I try to convey.  I fail miserably many times however when I do succeed I feel better about myself.   I cannot afford to create chaos.

Thank you for the post and giving me the opportunity to share my experience.

[RestlessWanderer]

Hmm..

I'm going to say neither. 

I think you did the right thing by walking away.  I'm curious about what happened when she followed and apparently you listened.

Can you tell me more about that?

When one partner says they need a break and the other partner denies them a break to recenter...that's very serious...very serious. (but I want to make sure I understand the dynamic correctly before continuing.)

OH...back to your question. 

1. No..you were not acting entitled.
2.  Gaslighting is complicated and I don't like the term.  Most likely she was "projecting".  Complicated issue that is likely best let until much later to discuss.


Best,

FF

FF, thank you for the response. To answer your questions: when she followed me outside she stopped at the back door. I kept walking and went into a vacant mobile home we own (that has been a place that I sometimes stay depending on how things are going). She stood at the back door and shouted at me. Walking away like that and going to the other house has been about the only way I can enforce a boundary. It usually works too. Otherwise the idea of establishing boundaries is somewhat laughable. Once I learned that I cannot engage with her when she’s angry like that, that I can’t bring reason to an argument, that as wrong as she might be, the best thing for me to do is just walk away. She never fights fair and the instant I get louder than her, she switches things and then points out how angry and loud I get. “Proving” that I’m the one with anger problems.
Which is precisely what got me going to therapy 2 years ago.
My therapist quickly saw that as long as I didn’t let myself get pushed to that point then things would not escalate. I may not be able to do anything about her anger, but I can keep things under control by not contributing.

[spinninghead]

To chime in on your original questions, no this is not entitlement. Whether it's gaslighting, I don't know as I'm not fully clear on what that really even is.

I can identify with being name-called or labelled "entitled." My wife called me that two nights ago while raving at me (because I expressed concern that she was looking at my work stuff with private patient data on it)... As well as a whole host of other labels. I find it really hard to not take those personally. I'm amazed by those of you that can let it roll off your back.

I can also identify with not being "allowed" to exit a confrontation, even with using  the wording given by therapists and books. My therapist has suggested it all goes back to their fear of abandonment. Their fear that we may literally keep walking.

So no, that's not entitlement. (I should know, since I'm so entitled! And defensive. And manipulative. And abusive. And self righteous. And sick.)

[formflier]

Hey...I would spend some time with your T "defining" gaslighting.

Broadly speaking, I don't like it because to me it implies thoughtful manipulation of reality.

My understanding of BPDish behavior is that it's not "thoughtful", instead it's reactive to out of control emotions.

Best,

FF

[Skip]

To be constructive, I would forget all the label gas-lighting and entitlement - they are only adding to the disconnect between you and your wife.

Labels are only helpful when they clarify a situation or characterize something with a known treatment. I can think of one that will help. Triangulation.

Good Triangulation and Bad Triangulation

While triangulation is an important stabilizing factor, at times triangulation can be a seriously destabilizing factor.  "Bad triangulation" can cause more turmoil in a relationship, polarizing communications and causing conflict to escalate.

According to Bowen, triangles have at least four possible outcomes, two of which are good and two of which are bad:

a stable pair can become destabilized by a third person; a stable pair can also be destabilized by the removal of the third person (an example would be a child leaving home and no longer available for triangulation); an unstable pair can be stabilized by the addition of a third person (an example would be a conflictual marriage becoming more harmonious after the birth of a child); and an unstable pair being stabilized by the removal of a third person (an example would be conflict is reduced by the removal of a third person who takes sides).

Recognizing the difference between good triangulation and bad triangulation is critical to avoid repeatedly entering into destabilizing conditions in our relationships.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle[/i]

So this is common in young families. A child learns to seek rescue from the one parent when in conflict with the other. This is the most basic principle in Family Theory.

And it is quite "fixable". But parents need to understand the dynamic and know how to react to it constructively. It will play out hundreds of times in your young family.

First triangle: So your son felt like victim of your inattention. He went to mom to side with him rather than come to you. Mom stepped in an rescued him.

He saw how well this works. He will learn and use it again.

These thing tend to multiply and make matter worse.

Second triangle:  So you felt like victim of your wife's "rescuing". You came here to be rescued rather than address the triangle. Members here are pretty savvy regarding triangulation and for the most part, are trying to not act in a way to create a third triangle.

Here is the diagram of  the solution to triangulation:


Click to enlarge

So let's talk about what your wife could have done different. Let's talk about what you could have done different if she hadn't acted constructively.

[RestlessWanderer]

Thank you all for your input. For clarification I use the term gaslighting in reference to the pattern of behavior in which blame, name calling, and baseless psychological labeling (ie compulsive liar, sociopath, etc) breakdown ones will and self esteem, and affect the ability to see through the falseness of the statements. Intention isn’t necessarily implied or required.

[formflier]

Have you ever thought about triangulation before? 

What was your first reaction to reading Skip's examples?  Which one hit closest to home?

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

I’ve been reading through triangulation over and over and thinking about it in my relationship. I don’t think it fits with my wife and I.  I can’t think of a scenario where the addition or subtraction of a third factor benefited or harmed our relationship. I think we’ve been unstable and unhealthy from the get go. There have been so many subtle things that my wife has done over the years that has conditioned me to anticipate and avoid her anger. And even with this change in my behavior I’ve been unsuccessful in staving it off.
I discussed gaslighting with my therapist yesterday. He feels that the concept actually does fit my wife’s behaviors. She makes the choice to let her anger push her to the point of lashing out at me. She has essentially admitted it herself saying that she’d rather hurt than be hurt. So when she is telling me that I am a pathological liar, a sociopath, entitled, worse than her abusive father or brothers, etc. she is making a choice to diminish and belittle me. The result over time is me questioning the validity of those statements. Thankfully I haven’t been convinced that any of those statements are true. That is what brought me here, to help me reflect on my behaviors and consider whether or not they hold water. I strive to improve myself and to definitely not be or exhibit any of the negative things she has said.
Going back to the concept of triangulation, the relationship that I think does fit with those ideas is that of my son and I. When he and I spend time together it is healthy. Add the third person, my wife, and the relationship becomes unstable. He is learning that she will often side with him and give him what he wants. She is quick to demonize me in those situations and assume that I am being petty or cruel without considering that I would never act that way towards my son. So rather than try to explain the situation (an exercise in futility), which always leads to an argument, I choose to walk away and talk to my son about it later. The last thing he needs is to witness another argument.

[Football2000]

I think you have made some good progress in figuring out your situation. I do want to caution you on your wife constantly hurting you and saying these things about you (placing stuff on you to avoid seeing the flaws in herself, or protect herself or whatever). You say you don't believe it, and that's great, but that kind of stuff can get to you over time. Some people (this might include you) are really good at compartmentalizing behaviours, understanding them on an intellectual level, but at the same time their emotional coping lags behind these.

Just telling you to protect yourself, and keep reevaluating your own strategies for your own health.

[formflier]

Has your therapist spent time with your wife?

I'm curious how a behavior gets attributed to "choice" instead of "emotional instability".

Clarity:  It's entirely possible it is a choice, I'm more curious about how the other possibilities were ruled out by your therapist.

Last:  So if you wife make a choice to do the things she does, I'm curious about your choice to continue accepting her choices.

Thoughts?


Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

Has your therapist spent time with your wife?

I'm curious how a behavior gets attributed to "choice" instead of "emotional instability".

Clarity:  It's entirely possible it is a choice, I'm more curious about how the other possibilities were ruled out by your therapist.

Last:  So if you wife make a choice to do the things she does, I'm curious about your choice to continue accepting her choices.

Thoughts?


Best,

FF

FF, no my therapist has not spent any time with her. After more than two years of describing recurring situations my therapist is recognizing patterns and behaviors. He has always been cautious about making statements implying a diagnosis of her condition and he always frames his thoughts in that context. He also holds me accountable for my actions and we spend most of our time talking about my role rather than talking about what she’s doing. Anything I have described on here is based on my understanding so I’m responsible for what I write and how I choose to communicate it.
That being said, I offer my thoughts in response to what you were wondering about how a behavior is attributed to choice rather than emotional instability. I think what he is saying is that she makes a choice to use hurtful words because she feels threatened or hurt. Her feelings can be attributed to the emotional instability, but she chooses to cause hurt in response to what she feels. Sometimes the feeling may be the same, but the response is to stay quiet or to express her feelings without blame or hurtful words. For example, if she is having an emotional response to something relatively minor and is unable to regulate it then chooses to say that I am more cruel than her violently abusive father she’s trying to make me feel like whatever I’ve done is worse than beating her.
My therapist did explore some other options, but landed on choice based largely on a consistent pattern of insults and belittling statements being used in situations that reflect her statement of hurt or be hurt.

Regarding your question regarding my choice to stay, I am constantly trying to understand that. I know that it’s my choice and I recognize layers of complexity that immobilize me. This is a primary reason why I am posting on here. And through reading what other people have posted I am seeing that I am not alone in making that choice nor in being confused by it.

[formflier]

I would also challenge you and your therapist to "consider the possibility" that it's not a choice or that her ability to choose is perhaps compromised.

Consider the possibility that when emotions are regulated she has more ability to choose and when she is dysregulated she has less choice.

I try to be deliberate about staying away from binary thinking.  Choice/no choice. 

Think of it more as "can I jump over the bar today".  Somedays you can jump higher and somedays you can't get but an inch or 2. 


Then try to understand what's going on that creates that ability or inability to jump.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Skip]

Going back to the concept of triangulation, the relationship that I think does fit with those ideas is that of my son and I. When he and I spend time together it is healthy. Add the third person, my wife, and the relationship becomes unstable. He is learning that she will often side with him and give him what he wants. She is quick to demonize me in those situations and assume that I am being petty or cruel without considering that I would never act that way towards my son.

Yes, this is my point precisely.

So rather than try to explain the situation (an exercise in futility), which always leads to an argument, I choose to walk away and talk to my son about it later. The last thing he needs is to witness another argument.

What do you say? The best message is for him to "be a man" and bring his frustrations to you directly.  Try to imprint on him that this is the best way to resolve conflict (in age appropriate language) and reward him when he does. When your wife is in a stable mood, explain to her what your plan is and how you are teaching the boy to process disappointment in a healthy way.

I would also challenge you and your therapist to "consider the possibility" that it's not a choice or that her ability to choose is perhaps compromised.

If it is BPD traits, then the disproportionate responses are often real expressions of how she feels in the moment. If she struggles to balance, regulate, or stay proportional, it will help if you do so in hearing her.  This will help you and you won't be injured.  This is not easy, but it is practical.

When she over reacts, how long does it take for her to reach baseline? Does she reach baseline?

[RestlessWanderer]

I would also challenge you and your therapist to "consider the possibility" that it's not a choice or that her ability to choose is perhaps compromised.
Consider the possibility that when emotions are regulated she has more ability to choose and when she is dysregulated she has less choice.
I try to be deliberate about staying away from binary thinking.  Choice/no choice. 
Think of it more as "can I jump over the bar today".  Somedays you can jump higher and somedays you can't get but an inch or 2. 
Then try to understand what's going on that creates that ability or inability to jump.

FF, I agree that the emotional disregulation is the key factor at play here, and you're right, it hinders her ability to appropriately control how she reacts. But after years of honing the ability to identify people's weaknesses and mentally refining and preparing the insults to cut to precise depths, I can say with confidence that she chooses what to say. I must add to this the fact that she has admitted and in some ways is proud of this ability. She has gone so far to describe how she meters what she says to inflict injury at a precise and deliberate level. She has told me how she learned this skill from her father, who could cut her down with just a few well selected words. She has described this ability as being locked and loaded at all times.
I have read that some people with BPD that grew up in an abusive home are highly attuned to identify the most subtle cues and tells when interacting with others. This ability served them well in the hostile home environment they were raised in and laid the groundwork for distrust and quick reactions in all aspects of the rest of their lives.
I think that the conscious preparation for conflict and the deliberate measurement of how much harm to inflict clearly indicates choice. However, I fully agree that BPD is clouding judgement as to the necessity of using this weapon. I also agree with you that it is not the best idea to assume binary thinking. My wife and I differ in that I always look at things in a spectrum of grays, whereas she tends to limit her thinking to binary terms.
I brought up this topic again with my therapist today. While we agree that it's not a good idea to think of things in that same binary way, choice vs no choice, when looking at this pattern of behavior incident after incident it becomes clear that she is conscious of what she is saying. She may have little control of how she interprets situations and the emotions they evoke, but once triggered she skillfully chooses what weapon to use from the arsenal she has prepared through careful and thoughtful observation.

I feel that I must add here that I don't jump to the conclusion that she is trying to brainwash me into thinking that I am a bad or worthless person. That's why I start threads on here, discuss things with my therapist, and seek the opinions of friends and family. I try to learn about what lies at the root of our problems. I try to discern where my actions end and BPD traits take over. Most importantly, I do my best at identifying and learning about the complex nuances of my situation.
Where I think I have failed here is clearly communicating the many layers of my situation. The title of this thread is the perfect example of this error.

[RestlessWanderer]

What do you say? The best message is for him to "be a man" and bring his frustrations to you directly.  Try to imprint on him that this is the best way to resolve conflict (in age appropriate language) and reward him when he does. When your wife is in a stable mood, explain to her what your plan is and how you are teaching the boy to process disappointment in a healthy way.

If it is BPD traits, then the disproportionate responses are often real expressions of how she feels in the moment. If she struggles to balance, regulate, or stay proportional, it will help if you do so in hearing her.  This will help you and you won't be injured.  This is not easy, but it is practical.

When she over reacts, how long does it take for her to reach baseline? Does she reach baseline?

Skip, when talking to my son about some situations I try to explain to him what happened from my perspective and let him know what was behind what I said (my intentions and motives). My hopes are to demonstrate how to own a mistake, and make clear that I would never try to intentionally hurt his feelings.

I'm not quite sure if I understand what you are suggesting I do when she is lashing out unfairly. I do try to identify what the root of the problem is. But, I have a hard time doing that, especially if I'm not being given the benefit of the doubt or allowed to explain myself. For the most part, I am able to shrug off the insults and chock them up to BPD, but I try to consider if what I did fits with what she says. Hence my question when I started this thread (seeking feedback on whether or not what I did was acting entitled).

When she overreacts the time it takes her to cool down depends on how angry she got. I have figured out that the more I interact (talk back) in those situations the worse the escalation will be and the longer the cool down will take. So, I try my best to not say anything. After all, I'm not going to convince her of anything when she's wearing her BPD goggles. I'm not sure what baseline is any more, 90% of our time is spent with tension at best and her angry at worst. Some times I think that I am just the scapegoat for everything that is bothering her.

[formflier]

When she overreacts the time it takes her to cool down depends on how angry she got. I have figured out that the more I interact (talk back) in those situations the worse the escalation will be and the longer the cool down will take. 

The bolded part jumped out as important to me  Does it seem important to you?

What possibilities come to mind when you consider the impact of your observations?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

 FF points out that the more participatory you are, the greater the dysregulation. How do you disengage sooner?

It seems like there is a strong thread of NPD in addition to the BPD.

[RestlessWanderer]

FF and Cat, I agree that my role is something that I can control. I have taken enormous steps in this respect. When I started therapy I was concerned about my anger in these situations. I have since learned to identify when my body is telling me I’ve been triggered (increased heart/respiratory rate, flushed feeling in my face, agitation and nervousness, etc) and have taught myself to use these cues to keep myself from participating. I often just walk away (as in the example in this thread). Walking away is the most effective way to deescalate. Since talking down a tense situation rarely works, walking away is my go to. I admit that I’m not 100% effective at this, but I do my best. I now do a much better job of not being triggered, not participating, and not escalating the situation.
Cat, I agree that there are some NPD traits coming in as well. She is highly functional and has an aversion to therapy despite the fact that she acknowledges its importance (for others). So, no diagnosis and no progress has been made on her part. She goes as far as reading psychology books and identifies the techniques being used on her and has lashed out at therapists for treating her like a test subject.

[RestlessWanderer]

I felt really good about an interaction I had with my son today. He was watching his favorite show when my wife said she wanted to watch something with him. His immediate response was to groan about changing it, to which my wife got upset and walked off to the bedroom to be alone. As she walked off I said something along the lines of “don’t reward his behavior by letting him watch while you’re forced to the other room.  I then went to the living room and told my son that his reaction wasn’t very nice. He was still a little raw and said back to me that “well momma said I could watch.” My wife heard this and interjected “don’t even bother, he’s 7. It’s too late to teach him that what he did isn’t ok.”
A few minutes later I called my son to his room to talk. I calmly described what happened and pointed out that he responded with his emotions. I told him that I know that he really is a caring person and didn’t mean to hurt his mommas feelings. Then we talked about different emotions and how reacting quickly based on our emotions isn’t always the best way to show our true self.
He did a good job of showing me he understood what we were talking about. He started to cry and wanted go apologize. I had him wait a little bit and think about what he wanted to say. It was so effective that she came out of the room and sat down to watch with us.
I made sure to let him know that what he did was very grown up and very hard for even me to do. So, it was ok if he didn’t remember to do it every time. The important thing is identifying what you’re feeling.