New Issue with Family

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Sorry all...think I’ve uncovered a side issue.

Our oldest is close with dad (they have very similar interests), but really struggles with his control and manipulations.

I try to help the situation but it is delicate and difficult because H doesn’t respond well to me.

I think we’re in some form of the Karpman triangle. Admittedly my understanding is limited.

Kid one is smart, college graduate, employed. H comments his opinion in everything from job to school to boys to friends to hair.

We’ve all bent to him to avoid his outbursts (not on everything, but a lot). What a shi!y example I have been.

So, kid one has a boss who is definitely disordered. No two ways about it. H can see it, which is shocking as he doesn’t see many of the same behaviors in himself. Problem for a different day.

Kid one runs most decisions past us, but really only wants dads input.

I have tried to smooth the conversation when I see two hard headed people not hearing the other.

Anyway, I believe it is kid one as victim, H/dad is rescuer, and in this instance, boss is persecutor. Could be friend, boyfriend, whatever.

Kid one is stuck here for a bit and is very short tempered. I am growing concerned a bit about developing a PD, but am saving for when kid one is out of this dynamic to see if they can revert to better behavior.

I see H create this dynamic with him always the rescuer for his mom, his partner, everyone.

What is this about?  Is this the narcissism?

I’ve stopped involving him in my decisions so he can’t play that role. He of course doesn’t like this but I like circles better, whatever.

And, how do I help kid one?  They are not open and have started lashing out at me. I’m just giving space but am growing concerned.

Any comment if I’m off base here is appreciated. And any suggestions how to help kid one regain autonomy and get out of victim are also appreciated.

Thank you.   

[UBPDHelp]

Sorry all...think I’ve uncovered a side issue.

Our oldest is close with dad (they have very similar interests), but really struggles with his control and manipulations.

I try to help the situation but it is delicate and difficult because H doesn’t respond well to me.

I think we’re in some form of the Karpman triangle. Admittedly my understanding is limited.

Kid one is smart, college graduate, employed. H comments his opinion in everything from job to school to boys to friends to hair.

We’ve all bent to him to avoid his outbursts (not on everything, but a lot). What a shi!y example I have been.

So, kid one has a boss who is definitely disordered. No two ways about it. H can see it, which is shocking as he doesn’t see many of the same behaviors in himself. Problem for a different day.

Kid one runs most decisions past us, but really only wants dads input.

I have tried to smooth the conversation when I see two hard headed people not hearing the other.

Anyway, I believe it is kid one as victim, H/dad is rescuer, and in this instance, boss is persecutor. Could be friend, boyfriend, whatever.

Kid one is stuck here for a bit and is very short tempered. I am growing concerned a bit about developing a PD, but am saving for when kid one is out of this dynamic to see if they can revert to better behavior.

I see H create this dynamic with him always the rescuer for his mom, his partner, everyone.

What is this about?  Is this the narcissism?

I’ve stopped involving him in my decisions so he can’t play that role. He of course doesn’t like this but I like circles better, whatever.

And, how do I help kid one?  They are not open and have started lashing out at me. I’m just giving space but am growing concerned.

Any comment if I’m off base here is appreciated. And any suggestions how to help kid one regain autonomy and get out of victim are also appreciated.

Thank you.   

[Rev]

How old are the children?

It will make a difference to the answer I would give.

Rev

[babyducks]

And, how do I help kid one?  They are not open and have started lashing out at me. I’m just giving space but am growing concerned.

one of the reasons bpdfamily pushes communication skills is because they are for and will help the family.   the whole family.     

your kids have been exposed to years of mentally unhealthy behavior.  verbal violence.    poor coping skills.     the better you get at new skills the more likely you can model this for them.

you can start to help your kid by doubling down on validation.    just validation.   validate what is valid.     do not invalidate.   

how is the progress coming on finding a therapist?

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Rev,

Kid one — 24 closest to dad, but also feels controlled, manipulated, yet seeks advice a lot
Kid two — 22, does not like dad, timid, avoids conflict, will NOT enlist his help if at all possible. Psych major, ugh, way smarter than me. Probably first to get something was off
Kid three — 13, also does not like dad, but will challenge and call him out, doesn’t need a ton of life advice yet, but familial advice is obviously way diminished, on my part, too
Kid four — 10, thought mostly unaware, but in last month has twice asked me not to tell dad something cause he would get angry, but loves dad dearly

I believe as is discussed on divorce board, it would be better to give kids 50% better, more peaceful, albeit not perfect, environment.

Kid one has exhibited some NPD traits I’ve written off as stress related, but I am fearful for kid one.

Would like to get them safely out of horrible home and work environments so can see if they are able to settle back. Can’t tell if poor behavior is result of being between two constant disordered people.

But kid one definitely in victim area with dad rescuer, imo.

Any thoughts/help appreciated...thank you!

[UBPDHelp]

one of the reasons bpdfamily pushes communication skills is because they are for and will help the family.   the whole family.     

your kids have been exposed to years of mentally unhealthy behavior.  verbal violence.    poor coping skills.     the better you get at new skills the more likely you can model this for them.

you can start to help your kid by doubling down on validation.    just validation.   validate what is valid.     do not invalidate.   

how is the progress coming on finding a therapist?

Good points on validation.

I feel strongly that kid one needs out. Just per regular life, but more so cause many hopes and dreams have been put on hold with pandemic and living through disorder at every turn.

I will try harder at validation (and not trying to fix).

Therapist is much needed. It is not possible currently. I’m not ready to blow up our situation just yet, pandemic/new job, so to move forward here would expedite a major dysregulation.

I know it is needed. I want it.

But still living in this reality. I know many will balk at this and tell me it’s my choice, not his. I agree. Bit I don’t have the stamina to start a new battle right now.

[babyducks]

pwBPD/NPD have porous boundaries.   with everyone.   kid one has been the golden child,.. the family success.     kid one is used to getting validation from Dad.  probably in weird and intermittent doses.   kid one is used to having Dad enmeshed in kids business.     it feels normal.

validate.   validate.    validate.    don't JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain) when in conversation.    develop empathic listening skills.    if they are little rusty to start that is okay.    ask questions.    lots of open ended questions.   do you want me to help with that or just listen?     what do you think of XYZ?     what do you think would best for today?    break things into smaller more manageable mini topics.   one day at time - that type of thinking.   always end the conversation on a good note.    I appreciate your thoughts.    I am happy you shared with me...   that was nice thank you...

[UBPDHelp]

pwBPD/NPD have porous boundaries.   with everyone.   kid one has been the golden child,.. the family success.     kid one is used to getting validation from Dad.  probably in weird and intermittent doses.   kid one is used to having Dad enmeshed in kids business.     it feels normal.

validate.   validate.    validate.    don't JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain) when in conversation.    develop empathic listening skills.    if they are little rusty to start that is okay.    ask questions.    lots of open ended questions.   do you want me to help with that or just listen?     what do you think of XYZ?     what do you think would best for today?    break things into smaller more manageable mini topics.   one day at time - that type of thinking.   always end the conversation on a good note.    I appreciate your thoughts.    I am happy you shared with me...   that was nice thank you...

Thank you. This is immeasurably helpful.

I feel like such an enormous failure to my kids. That’s on me. No one else.

[Rev]

Hi Rev,

Kid one — 24 closest to dad, but also feels controlled, manipulated, yet seeks advice a lot
Kid two — 22, does not like dad, timid, avoids conflict, will NOT enlist his help if at all possible. Psych major, ugh, way smarter than me. Probably first to get something was off
Kid three — 13, also does not like dad, but will challenge and call him out, doesn’t need a ton of life advice yet, but familial advice is obviously way diminished, on my part, too
Kid four — 10, thought mostly unaware, but in last month has twice asked me not to tell dad something cause he would get angry, but loves dad dearly

I believe as is discussed on divorce board, it would be better to give kids 50% better, more peaceful, albeit not perfect, environment.

Kid one has exhibited some NPD traits I’ve written off as stress related, but I am fearful for kid one.

Would like to get them safely out of horrible home and work environments so can see if they are able to settle back. Can’t tell if poor behavior is result of being between two constant disordered people.

But kid one definitely in victim area with dad rescuer, imo.

Any thoughts/help appreciated...thank you!

K - thanks... give me a couple of days to really mull this over.  I'm responding here now so I can find this more easily in the threads.

In the meantime, if you like psychology, do some simple reading about Erikson's developmental stages.  Also transaction analysis - both are at play here. The name of the game is to cultivate an unencumbered sense of identity in your children - note the word cultivate.

I will say this - don't feel like a failure - although I know that's almost impossible (I've been there) - the clarity with with you write here belies and sensitivity that I promise you is landing in the hearts of your children.

Hang in there.

Rev

[GaGrl]

Nothing you describe is unusual in a family with young adults coming of age and trying to individuate. It's key to use the validation skills.

More later...

[UBPDHelp]

Thanks GaGrl,

At face value I agree. Kid one is quick to react with verbal jabs at me and siblings. Wouldn’t dare with dad. Some a respect thing, but more a protective thing.

But dad involves and questions and makes kid one doubt themself.  If kid one doesn’t choose what he would, then he attempts to manipulate.

To avoid his dysregulations, we’ve all reverted to including him in decisions.  Keeps the victim-rescuer dynamic going. And, imo, a big part of his NPD taking credit for everything.

I finally saw through the “looking out for your best interest” line and don’t involve him in things I want to maintain control of (work, mostly).

Example of manipulation...

Kid one wants to move out. Apartment set, roommates haven’t returned so would be going to big city, mid-pandemic with no one day to day. But job is pressuring to return so need is growing.

Dad doesn’t want kid one to go so puts foot down and says can’t go until at least one roommate returns. But with job pressuring, tells kid one not to lose a job because of roommates. And in the next breath, tells kid one to quit the job because boss is a horrible person.

Maybe not a manipulation, more of the waffling input. Now pick. And be right...in that moment.

Basically, I’m trying to get kid one to make the decision or at least state something like — I’m deciding between A and B and I’m hoping for some input before I make a final decision.

Manipulation...

Kid one wanted to go to hair salon for hair color. He didn’t want to go because “it’s not safe”.  Kid one was trying to decide whether to spend the money when not seeing anyone anyway, etc.  H wanted kid one to have the lighter hair kid one has been coloring to for years. He badgered kid one about hair not looking good and suggested to do it at home (safer). Kept saying things like I didn’t know you wanted brown hair, I’m okay with it if you are. We ended up doing it ay home...surprise it wasn’t what he wanted and the comments continued. Meanwhile I’m trying to figure out why any of this is important to HIM. 

And kid one has been working for home and “going casual”, pony/no makeup kind of thing. Kid one is having some stress skin and he comments on that and makes kid one feel bad that they are “not put together”.  Once kid one relinquished (I tried to support that there was no need to be anyone other than who kid one wanted to be)...just easier.

Then the comments...oh, doesn’t kid one look amazing, blah, blah.

Meanwhile he’s been wearing the same two dirty shirts for four months.

It’s this type of thing most days, add in all the other stuff and it really feels like kid one needs to get to apartment.

LMK if you think this is all still normal coming of age...I may be off the mark...

[formflier]

Therapist is much needed. It is not possible currently. I’m not ready to blow up our situation just yet,  

Why on earth would you blow up your situation after getting a therapist?  You would think a therapist would help you calm things down.

Have you worked with a therapist before?  Perhaps there are some erroneous ideas about what you are supposed to do in therapy.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Why on earth would you blow up your situation after getting a therapist?  You would think a therapist would help you calm things down.

Have you worked with a therapist before?  Perhaps there are some erroneous ideas about what you are supposed to do in therapy.

Best,

FF

It’s not that I believe the therapist would blow things up, it is that H will.

He doesn’t believe in therapists, would never go and pretty much believes (I know because he says so) that we all have things really good. I can guarantee you that seeing a T at this time will expedite the demise of our relationship.

I have checked coverage for a T (and have set aside a fair amount of $ for it regardless), have been looking for one that can manage HCP (or more importantly, I guess, victims of).

I want it most importantly for my kids.

I see it something like, I go for an individual session, then we do family (sans dad), then kids get individual.  Idk if I need separate for each or having the same T helps tie it together or blurs the lines. Open to thoughts.

Oldest will probably refuse to go.  Work on that for later day.  Youngest is mostly unaware and not sure at this point if bringing stuff up that is not known would be more damaging.

If/when divorce, probably introduce for T feedback.

Please remember we are living in close quarters, H will not go to work, he is fearful of everything pandemic. I had to call the lawyer sitting in the car in my driveway, ready to hang up if he came outside. There was no place during normal business hours that I felt I could have a private conversation inside the house. I can’t leave the house for 2 hours without him wanting to know where I’m going and if I’m putting everyone at risk. I definitely can’t coordinate that at a specific date and time.

This is not about whether he says it’s okay and can decide what I do or don’t do. Those days are over. He doesn’t get to decide for me any longer, but what happens if I leave now with kids, assuming someone will rent to me with a month old job?  I’d like to know my job is secure (have end of probation review in 2 months) so if he decides to not work or provide financial support, that I can still put a roof over my kids heads and feed them. What happens if I leave, lose my job and pandemic flares again and I have no way to support us?

I’m not looking for excuses. I am very thoughtfully and painstakingly putting a plan in place. It may not be how you or others would do it, but it’s the most comfortable I can be at the moment.

I don’t see any other way. What do you see?

[formflier]

It’s not that I believe the therapist would blow things up, it is that H will

Ahh...ok yeah that was confusing.  Thanks for clarifying

  I’m not ready to blow up our situation just yet

From the above I got the vibe you believe you would be responsible for "blowing up" the situation.

Perhaps that's what got me confused.

So...do I have this right? You know that you husband doesn't believe in therapists, so you have adopted his belief structure and set aside you own?

or is it possible you are trying to manipulate or control your husbands outbursts/threats with your choices?

Perhaps I'm just being slow this morning (no coffee yet) but seems like I remember BabyDucks posting something about cognitive distortions, yet I can't seem to find that at the moment.

https://psychcentral.com/lib/15-common-cognitive-distortions/

I briefly scanned this list and several jumped out at me that have the possibility of applying to your situation.  Which ones jump out at you?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I want it most importantly for my kids.

 

Clarity.  Have you ever spoken with a therapist before?  (I get the vibe you have not)

With that assumption (that you haven't spoken to one before), what do you imagine it will be like?  What benefit do you think YOU will get from speaking to them?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Ahh...ok yeah that was confusing.  Thanks for clarifying

From the above I got the vibe you believe you would be responsible for "blowing up" the situation.

Perhaps that's what got me confused.

Yes, H being acutely aware that I was seeing a T, heaven forbid the kids were, would light the fuse. It is not a fire I believe I have the luxury of starting at this moment.

So...do I have this right? You know that you husband doesn't believe in therapists, so you have adopted his belief structure and set aside you own?

Partially right. He does NOT believe in Ts.  I have no issue with it. I am strategically choosing to not introduce this at a time where protecting my children is vulnerable.

If H actually left the house, it would be easier.

I’m guessing wrapping your head around the actual dynamic currently at play is hard. You’re not living it.

I could leave, I just may, but I have deemed that not the most prudent course right now. I’d like a little more security.

It it were just me, I’d go.  I’ve already failed my kids so much, I just want to ensure I have the best opportunity for success for them, for me. Not perfection, just tolerable success.

or is it possible you are trying to manipulate or control your husbands outbursts/threats with your choices?

Or, perhaps...I no longer care to let him control my choices. At this moment I choose to not introduce something that I know with near certainty will escalate a very delicate, tenuous situation when I am not prepared to handle it.

I wouldn’t look at a bank robber pointing a gun at me and say, “oh, you forgot the bullets?  Here, use mine.”

I’d have planned for the possibility, hope I had options and wait to when I could discreetly push the panic button...unless faced with no other choice to push the button. Add a tour of school children and my decision may change to even more cautious. Idk what you would do...

Perhaps I'm just being slow this morning (no coffee yet) but seems like I remember BabyDucks posting something about cognitive distortions, yet I can't seem to find that at the moment.

https://psychcentral.com/lib/15-common-cognitive-distortions/

I briefly scanned this list and several jumped out at me that have the possibility of applying to your situation.  Which ones jump out at you?

Best,

FF

I’ll take a look and get back to you.

Do I think I’m doing this right? No
Do I hope to do something with a T soon? Yes

Do I believe my decision to hold off at least until H leaves the house is what’s best RIGHT NOW? Yes
Will I change course if need changes? Yes

Is it okay if you disagree with me?  You betcha

In theory I have zero issue with a T, in fact, I relish the idea of having some clarity. I want help getting my kids mentally and emotionally healthy.

You all have helped me already letting go of what I thought I knew. I’ve accepted mental illness at play. It doesn’t fit my prior view of mental illness, but here it is.

I’ve accepted I can’t change him. I’ve accepted that it’s not how I want to live...and that’s okay.

I hope he gets help and peace in the future...I doubt he will. He doesn’t really truly acknowledge a problem.

I accept that I spent too much time trying to fix things, without any understanding of NPD/BPD or skills to do so. I tried too long, fought too hard to hold onto things that were never real.

Yes, I can talk about those things. I’ve accepted them. I know there will be dark days. I know he will try to cut me off at the knees.

Getting him to accept my decision to see a T is not the particular battle I wish to undertake at the moment. It doesn’t mean I disagree with the idea as a whole.

Thoughts, anyone?

[UBPDHelp]

Perhaps I'm just being slow this morning (no coffee yet) but seems like I remember BabyDucks posting something about cognitive distortions, yet I can't seem to find that at the moment.

https://psychcentral.com/lib/15-common-cognitive-distortions/

I briefly scanned this list and several jumped out at me that have the possibility of applying to your situation.  Which ones jump out at you?

I don’t do most of these. Some I do some of the time.

I suppose you could say that I expect H will do x if I do y.  But, this comes from 30 years of experience, 20 of which I expected he would do the right thing. NOT that I demanded, therefore he should do.  But, just assumed he would.

On the other hand, I can see him in virtually every single one of them.

Here’s the thing. I don’t need to prove I’m right and he’s wrong. I just need to accept that 1) he is/does these things, 2) I don’t like it, 3) it won’t change. I can choose to not be a part of something I don’t want to be. He can choose to do what he wants.

[UBPDHelp]

Clarity.  Have you ever spoken with a therapist before?  (I get the vibe you have not)

With that assumption (that you haven't spoken to one before), what do you imagine it will be like?  What benefit do you think YOU will get from speaking to them?

Best,

FF

I have friends who are Ts, that’s really as far as I’ve gone.

To clarify, the reason I want it MOST for my kids is because I am responsible for failing to protect them. It was my job. I failed. I need to fix that above all else.

I will talk to someone too.  I’m sure everything I believe I’ve come to terms with will prove otherwise. That’s okay. I’m open to it all and putting it to bed. I’m not saying it will poof be magically all good, but at some point will decide the path is solely forward and not backward.

[formflier]

Let's break things down, one thing at a time.

  3) it won’t change. 

1.  Has your recent history shown this to be true or untrue?

2.  Is this statement a cognitive distortion?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

  I can choose to not be a part of something I don’t want to be. He can choose to do what he wants.

Yes..very wise. 

Would you also accept that you can choose to do things and he can choose to not do things?

You can choose to do things and he can choose to do those same things.

You can choose to not do things and he can choose to not do things.

There are probably a couple of other permutations that I'm overlooking.

Can you evaluate the following axiom.

Both you and he are able to make independent decisions.

Would you like to rephrase this?  Are you ready to accept this or something similar as an axiom for YOUR life.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Getting him to accept my decision to see a T is not the particular battle I wish to undertake at the moment. 

I'm confused...who has suggested to you that you try and convince your hubby to accept you going to see a T?

Alibi:  I still haven't gone out and gotten any coffee...so perhaps I'm not reading this correctly.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

I don’t do most of these. Some I do some of the time.

UBPDHelp,

Here is why I mentioned cognitive distortions.    

Tools come from understanding concepts.    How do you get better tools?    You understand the concepts better.

Do you have cognitive distortions?   Sure.    So do I.    So does everyone who writes on this board.    So does everyone who is written about on these boards.   Everyone has cognitive distortions.

The concepts are the point.     Not whether you have them.   Not whether your husband has them.  

There is no judgement in the concepts.

Tools come from understanding the broad general underlying concepts that are at work in human nature.

if you want to get better at the tools you need to embrace the concepts.

'ducks

[formflier]

if you want to get better at the tools you need to embrace the concepts.
 

What I've done is once I have a general understanding of a concept, then I start a "deliberate process" of saying to myself "If this concept was affecting me and I was blind to it...how would that be playing out?"

More often I'll say "While I don't think I do this, how can I "guard against" me being blind to a concept.

So test yourself, invite others to come along side you and see if they understand and apply the concept in the same way you are.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Yes..very wise. 

Would you also accept that you can choose to do things and he can choose to not do things?

You can choose to do things and he can choose to do those same things.

You can choose to not do things and he can choose to not do things.

There are probably a couple of other permutations that I'm overlooking.

Can you evaluate the following axiom.

Both you and he are able to make independent decisions.

Would you like to rephrase this?  Are you ready to accept this or something similar as an axiom for YOUR life.

Best,

FF

I’ve never thought otherwise.

I gave up a lot of my decision autonomy to keep the peace. Mistake.

But, some marital decisions are joint so sometimes have to work together...

[UBPDHelp]

I'm confused...who has suggested to you that you try and convince your hubby to accept you going to see a T?

Alibi:  I still haven't gone out and gotten any coffee...so perhaps I'm not reading this correctly.

Best,

FF

This is not permission.

This is full on dysregulation as a result. I can’t manage that right now.

Does no one see how this can be the case?

Would you suggest I exert my decision-making abilities and see a T when he doesn’t believe there is a problem, that Ts are snake oil salesmen and that it will likely highly increase his fear of abandonment?

Help me out here.

I’m not debating the validity that I SHOULD be able to decide and see a T, I’m simply saying that the current situation prevents me from feeling I can do so safely.

Anyone see this?  Understand it?  Where the heck is my rocker?

[UBPDHelp]

UBPDHelp,

Here is why I mentioned cognitive distortions.    

Tools come from understanding concepts.    How do you get better tools?    You understand the concepts better.

Do you have cognitive distortions?   Sure.    So do I.    So does everyone who writes on this board.    So does everyone who is written about on these boards.   Everyone has cognitive distortions.

The concepts are the point.     Not whether you have them.   Not whether your husband has them.  

There is no judgement in the concepts.

Tools come from understanding the broad general underlying concepts that are at work in human nature.

if you want to get better at the tools you need to embrace the concepts.

'ducks

Thanks ‘ducks. I’m okay with being distorted sometimes...I’m hoping for the fun house mirror that shaves off 10 pounds.

I will read through the concepts more. Once I understand them, how do they help me?  No action, just knowledge?  Acceptance?

[UBPDHelp]

What I've done is once I have a general understanding of a concept, then I start a "deliberate process" of saying to myself "If this concept was affecting me and I was blind to it...how would that be playing out?"

More often I'll say "While I don't think I do this, how can I "guard against" me being blind to a concept.

So test yourself, invite others to come along side you and see if they understand and apply the concept in the same way you are.

Best,

FF

I’ll try...this may be more cerebral than I’m capable of. But ultimately I’d like to be a better person and use my skills for good.

Deep breaths, sleep and see where I am in the morning. Thank you.

[babyducks]

I will read through the concepts more. Once I understand them, how do they help me?  No action, just knowledge?  Acceptance?

here is a rough example:

my husband calls me vile nasty names.   = your processing is being done by the emotional side of your brain.   this is personal.    it's emotional.   

my husband calls me names because he has a mental illness. = processing is being done by both the emotional side of the brain and the reasoning side of the brain.  it's still personal.   it's still emotional.  but the reasoning side of the brain has introduced a fact/concept.    the concept helps the reasoning side of the brain begin to engage.

When I think about it I notice my husband calls me names when he feels upset by something and this makes me feel disrespected, and this makes me think I should take action.  =  processing is moving into the wise mind.   a balanced mix of both the emotional and reasoning side of the brain.    the wise mind can take a step back and function independently from the emotions while not disregarding them.

Understanding the concepts that are in play reduces stress.     Knowing the concepts generates action.    Using the tools can be done by a mere rote repetition of X happens I do Y.    that's not terribly effective.  the tools work better when there is an understanding of why they work.



I am sorry this is so difficult for you UBPDHelp.   I am sorry this is such a hard time.   I appreciate the time you put in trying to make sense of it.     When I read your threads I get a real sense of distress and confusion.    It feels very much to me that my comments in these threads are not as productive as I had wished for.    I think what would be best for me is to allow other members here to participate and offer other perspectives.     Hopefully different voices will pitch in.   
I think sometimes a fresh voice can move the conversation into fresh territory.

respectfully
'ducks

[formflier]

Would you suggest I exert my decision-making abilities and see a T when he doesn’t believe there is a problem, that Ts are snake oil salesmen and that it will likely highly increase his fear of abandonment?

Yes

I’m not debating the validity that I SHOULD be able to decide and see a T, I’m simply saying that the current situation prevents me from feeling I can do so safely.

Apply KISS principle.  That results in contacting T.

Apply boundaries.  That results in contacting T.  

Apply the principle of let you do you and let him do him.  That results in contacting T.

Re-read material about cognitive distortions.  Ask yourself if it's possible there is one (or several) at play here?  

You've been able to contact a L and your hubby did what?

Perhaps you can contact a T and one of the first orders of business can be practicing how to communicate with hubby about a T, if that ever becomes necessary.


Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

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