He really is going to do everything he can to disrupt me Part 2

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

This thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344373.30

I have started a dv support group, The CPS worker hasn't heard back from stbx and will be making her report soon. My hearing on distance in ofp is in a week. I read his lawyer's response today and it is genuinely hard to read bs, painting me as hysterical and harassing. Said he "left the home on April..." not that he was arrested. It is going to take a lot of effort to remain calm during any court proceedings. I ordered the booklet love and loathing and found it very useful and am finished splitting. I would say its hard when there has been domestic violence and emotional abuse to read about false accusations. It took me nearly 20 years and his arrest to take the actions I am taking and it has been disheartening to say the least how little the system is set up to support victims really. We'll see how court goes- not feeling confident about the distance issue, but felt it was important to fight for in the long run. My lawyer is out of town until a few days before the hearing so I need to try and relax. It really is true for me that I can have good days in a row and then a legal issue comes up and I feel anxious- though manageable. I have no idea how this will go in the long run. I will be curious to see what happens when he gets a criminal trial date set.

[palynne]

This thread was split from this discussion:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344373.30

I have started a dv support group, The CPS worker hasn't heard back from stbx and will be making her report soon. My hearing on distance in ofp is in a week. I read his lawyer's response today and it is genuinely hard to read bs, painting me as hysterical and harassing. Said he "left the home on April..." not that he was arrested. It is going to take a lot of effort to remain calm during any court proceedings. I ordered the booklet love and loathing and found it very useful and am finished splitting. I would say its hard when there has been domestic violence and emotional abuse to read about false accusations. It took me nearly 20 years and his arrest to take the actions I am taking and it has been disheartening to say the least how little the system is set up to support victims really. We'll see how court goes- not feeling confident about the distance issue, but felt it was important to fight for in the long run. My lawyer is out of town until a few days before the hearing so I need to try and relax. It really is true for me that I can have good days in a row and then a legal issue comes up and I feel anxious- though manageable. I have no idea how this will go in the long run. I will be curious to see what happens when he gets a criminal trial date set.

[MeandThee29]

Yes, it's hard to think about anything else when you are in the throes of it. I'm fine now, but I used to have to set it aside after dinner and force myself to focus on entirely different things until I went to bed.

I didn't want court either. At one appointment, my attorney had worked out his trial strategy and was eager to tell me and discuss that, and I told him STOP. I knew that sometimes when you hire a gifted litigator like him, they tend to push that. He dropped it though. Months later it came up again as a possibility, but I was more healed and more fed up with the whole divorce process by then. The plan was to end negotiations and "see you in court." We wouldn't have gotten a court date for months anyway, and I probably would have been fine by then.

But I'm still glad that it settled out of court. Less money, less drama.

[palynne]

Thought I would post an update. The judge allowed my stbx to own and occupy the house as he had no violated the current ofp. His lawyer is very negative and strange. She threw every false accusation out there and it was simple motion hearing- doesn't bode well. I agreed to try mediation on finances to start the judge told his lawyer that they needed to agree on a mediator this week as we proposed mediation a month ago and got no response. Does anyone have advice or thoughts on financial mediation or when and if your bpd spouse has a very muck-raking lawyer? Even though most of what she said was irrelevant it hurt me. The other weirdness is that stbx emailed our 13 year old and told her he missed and loved all the girls and me. What? After accusing me of harassment, etc. I know I should have been prepared, but I just cry. I didn't want any of this and hung on for way too long with false hope of change and now I have a feeling of no control over the process. With Covid and the violence where I live I am just feeling down.

[MeandThee29]

Thought I would post an update. The judge allowed my stbx to own and occupy the house as he had no violated the current ofp. His lawyer is very negative and strange. She threw every false accusation out there and it was simple motion hearing- doesn't bode well. I agreed to try mediation on finances to start the judge told his lawyer that they needed to agree on a mediator this week as we proposed mediation a month ago and got no response. Does anyone have advice or thoughts on financial mediation or when and if your bpd spouse has a very muck-raking lawyer? Even though most of what she said was irrelevant it hurt me. The other weirdness is that stbx emailed our 13 year old and told her he missed and loved all the girls and me. What? After accusing me of harassment, etc. I know I should have been prepared, but I just cry. I didn't want any of this and hung on for way too long with false hope of change and now I have a feeling of no control over the process. With Covid and the violence where I live I am just feeling down.

((hugs)

Yes, it's often been said here that if you think the relationship is hard, just wait. The divorce will be worse.

My lawyer was more the smooth negotiator, efficient type. Don't ask for the moon and ignore the insults. His is more of a loose cannon type and played games that mine didn't like, but they got it done. Mine had a few choice words to say about his attorney at signing though. Some things happened that he didn't think much of. I think if it had gone to court between those two, his definitely would have slung a lot of mud. Mine talked about several areas where he expected that and what he would do, but thankfully it never went there.

I think you just have to hold on for the worst. Hopefully you have attorneIy that will just plow through. The good ones know how to handle that. You have to deal with your feelings that you once loved this person, and now they are trying to destory you. So hold you head high and march forward!

On mediation make sure that you've worked out areas that you won't move on and what you are willing to give in on. And be prepared to walk. It might well fail.

[ForeverDad]

Occasionally a member here reports that his or her mediation succeeded.  However, most fail.  That's the reality for us.  Often the stbEx is just too entitled, manipulative and controlling for the mediation to find a middle ground.  So don't walk in with your heart set on making mediation work.  If you do, then you're probably going to Gift Away far too much.

If you are too nervous to be in the same room with your stbEx, you can ask that you and your stbEx sit in separate rooms with the mediator alternating between you two.  Some states allow your lawyer to attend.  If not, you can always take a break periodically (to walk or go to the restroom) and call your lawyer or trusted friend for insight and suggestions.

Face it, you will be stressed during mediation.  Take a few deep breaths now and then.  If you feel pressured to give up something you consider important, that may be a signal that it's time to take a break, end the session or even declare mediation failed (and return to court).

[livednlearned]

The other weirdness is that stbx emailed our 13 year old and told her he missed and loved all the girls and me. What?

I experienced the same thing.

With BPD, he is triggered by intense emotions which tend to be more common in close relationships. Now that he has some distance his emotions are likely more regulated. He feels safe because there is less intimacy.

Safer he feels, the more settled his sentiments.

That's the pull part of the disorder.

[palynne]

Oh, boy. Well I haven't posted in a while as there was virtually no movement with our case. His lawyer is aggressive and nasty and accusatory and not turning over any documents for our upcoming mediation- looking bad  on that account and he is refusing to get his belongings still. I wanted to ask the community about something and get some feedback if possible. My stbx has not seen the kids in over three months. We offered sober and or supervised and he never responded so its been a stalemate. My three older kids want no contact but my youngest who will be turning 7 misses him and asked to see him. From what I understand he is not in any treatment of any kind alcohol or for bpd so I just keep telling her we need daddy to be safe before you can see him and letting her know that her feelings of missing her are normal and that he loves her and misses her but it is so important to be safe. I tried to reach out to my mother in law to see if she knew whether he was in treatment or going to AA meetings and it blew straight up in my face. She told me she didn't know and then turned around told my STBX I wanted to co-parent and that I knew the kids needed him, etc. This of course went through the lawyers and I had to explain to my lawyer that my mother in law misconstrued our conversation, etc. Has anyone had to deal with family of ex and how do we help kids who miss parents but it just isn't feasible to safely see them (also he is not really trying to see them as well). I feel like I let me FOG rule me for a couple days and it has shaken me up that I am still abel to be so weak minded or silly about someone who is making no effort. Advice please!

[ForeverDad]

It has been commented in the past that "blood is thicker than water".  In other words, you can't count on the other person's family or friends (or even mutual friends) to take your side or not take the other's side.  This is a learning experience for you, so sorry.

Also, this is a lesson on TMI.  Sharing more information than necessary can end up sabotaging us afterward.

[worriedStepmom]

One of the hard lessons of a divorce is that you can't manage the other parent's relationship with the children. 

Your ex is not trying to see your littlest.  He has avoided answering your questions and has not attempted to organize visitation. That tells you everything you need to know about his desire to be a parent right now.

I know that you want to spare your child pain, but in the long run that isn't the healthiest option.  By saying "Dad loves you and wants to see you" you are basically gaslighting them.  The evidence of their eyes is that Dad isn't trying to parent, but mom is trying to tell them something else.

It's okay to say "The lawyers are negotiating a way for you to see dad that's safe for you." and leave it at that.  It's not good to speculate on what Dad feels or is trying to do - that's for Dad to explain if he chooses to do so. 

[palynne]

Thank you so much, I hadn't even thought of it as gaslighting. I didn't sleep much wondering how I could have been so foolish and wondering how this will all come back to haunt me. I think I was doing what I did during our marriage which was try to "create" positive relationships with him and the kids. I can see how that is not helpful. It is so hard when your kids are hurting, but I will definitely just use more accurate language and of course it was TMI, I should have slowed down and gone over this with someone before I called. Right now I need to forgive myself and move on and face whatever is coming. I worry all the time about doing things the "right way" but it is truly difficult to find a right way when your ex has bpd. So far it seems that the the community here was right and mediation is going to be a joke. My lawyer had to schedule a discovery hearing for next week just to get the required financial documents. I think a strange part of my mind was holding on to hope that he would settle down and start to be practical. I am delusional on this front.

[MeandThee29]

Thank you so much, I hadn't even thought of it as gaslighting. I didn't sleep much wondering how I could have been so foolish and wondering how this will all come back to haunt me. I think I was doing what I did during our marriage which was try to "create" positive relationships with him and the kids. I can see how that is not helpful. It is so hard when your kids are hurting, but I will definitely just use more accurate language and of course it was TMI, I should have slowed down and gone over this with someone before I called. Right now I need to forgive myself and move on and face whatever is coming. I worry all the time about doing things the "right way" but it is truly difficult to find a right way when your ex has bpd. So far it seems that the the community here was right and mediation is going to be a joke. My lawyer had to schedule a discovery hearing for next week just to get the required financial documents. I think a strange part of my mind was holding on to hope that he would settle down and start to be practical. I am delusional on this front.

It's a struggle ((hugs).

I agree that you should never lie to your kids. I would personally go even more general and say just this, "Dad can't be with you right now. I don't know when that will change. I know that's hard to think about." Then give them a hug or read a book together to cement that you are there for them. Ultimately, you are only responsible for your relationship with them. As far as you know, he may or may not ever be close to them, but that's not for you to manage. Some people actively co-parent, some only appear occasionally, and some go their own way.

I never did get all of the financials, but I managed the household finances, so I pretty much knew what there was on the date of separation which was what was called for in the agreement. I was fine with that for the negotiated settlement. Of course if we had mediated or gone to court, more would have been needed.

[ForeverDad]

Do you know where the term gaslighting came from?  There were plays in the 1930s and then movies in the 1940s named "Gaslight".  The American movie was in 1944.  A young woman is courted by a man who is after her inheritance and causes her to doubt her own sanity, he turns the gas supply up and down yet insists to her that it never changed.  Gaslighting.

[worriedStepmom]

Right now I need to forgive myself and move on and face whatever is coming. I worry all the time about doing things the "right way" but it is truly difficult to find a right way when your ex has bpd.

I am SO GLAD that you posted this.  You have exactly the right attitude.

We all make mistakes.  You're in a situation you have never been in before, with lots of heavy emotions - both yours and the kids'.  It's not going to be easy and you won't be perfect.  Do the best you can, make amends when you mess up, and keep learning.

I spent quite a while trying to manage my ex's relationship with our kids before I realized I was hurting them more by covering for dad.  He's doing better now, but I still caught myself last week trying to manage his relationship with S11.  I had to give myself a lecture and back off.  They will figure it out together - or they won't.  My job is to provide cuddles and emotional validation.

[livednlearned]

Every misstep you make, most of us made too.

The good news is that you can repair and recover, loop back to the kids and say it how you wished you said it.

You can also say things to people that you regret and stuff will still work out ok.

Many of us make more mistakes than not. That's how most of us got ourselves to this point.

We lived and learned 

[palynne]

Has anyone had their ex choose a lawyer that is quite aggressive and bullying? Things have really broken down again, everything is postponed again and his lawyer is sending very bullying messages even to my lawyer. My lawyer said it was 'off the wall' behavior. We have to have hearings to get my stbx to comply with everything. We are still going to court ordered mediation in September now and we finally have a custody evaluator chosen, but I am super pessimistic. Anytime I speak with anyone we mutually knew (family and friends) even just in passing, I get an email from his lawyer accusing me of slander and harassment. Luckily I am keeping records, but does anyone have true long haul advice for inner well being during a high conflict divorce? Is there a specific speaker, book, article that really made a difference?
 I have a feeling that this is going to take a loong time and would like to be a little more distant about each accusation. Has anyone's divorce taken years? Thanks

[worriedStepmom]

Why is his lawyer emailing you directly?  His lawyer should be emailing your lawyer and leaving you out of it - and your L should be able to put a stop to that kind of harassment.

[MeandThee29]

Has anyone had their ex choose a lawyer that is quite aggressive and bullying? Things have really broken down again, everything is postponed again and his lawyer is sending very bullying messages even to my lawyer. My lawyer said it was 'off the wall' behavior. We have to have hearings to get my stbx to comply with everything. We are still going to court ordered mediation in September now and we finally have a custody evaluator chosen, but I am super pessimistic. Anytime I speak with anyone we mutually knew (family and friends) even just in passing, I get an email from his lawyer accusing me of slander and harassment. Luckily I am keeping records, but does anyone have true long haul advice for inner well being during a high conflict divorce? Is there a specific speaker, book, article that really made a difference?
 I have a feeling that this is going to take a loong time and would like to be a little more distant about each accusation. Has anyone's divorce taken years? Thanks

In the old days people would have their lawyers write a letter. Depending on the content, that might or might not have any weight. Now lawyers email that sort of thing. If your lawyer has seen those and calls them "off the wall," you are probably OK.

That said, frankly I'd drop anyone that is ratting you out to your STBX. They are trouble, plain and simple. Likely his blood relatives are going take his side every time. Just how it is. If you have an interactions, don't discuss him or the divorce.

My attorney had known my ex's attorney for years and told me in the first interview to expect mud and a hard fight. And indeed there was mud. We never replied in kind. My attorney told me simply, "We're better than that and don't need that kind of tactic to get what we want." And it was a hard fight. It never went to court, but it involved significantly more than it could have for what should have been a basic settlement (no custody issues, no real estate, no business interests).

If you haven't already, you need a therapist and/or support group. Ordinary people don't get this. Most divorces aren't like this, and frankly people can say the worst things at times. I learned to keep my mouth shut most of the time and confide with a few friends who didn't have any connection to my ex.

[palynne]

Strange but true, I thought my stbx with borderline wouldn't engage in a smear campaign or drag this out like others. Why I thought this I have no clue. I am trusting less and less and am trying to hunker down but it still hurts emotionally. I definitely have a therapist, but when these things fly at me it gets overwhelming. Reality hit home that this is going to be one of those long and dirty fights, that I was hoping to avoid.

[palynne]

Divorcing someone with BPD is so unlike with other people understand. So we have a mediation scheduled for Sept and by stbx is trying to claim I have no right to the house or my car, that I make the same wage as him and many other bogus claims that are easily disproven with documents. I know in the long run I should just keep my eyes on the prize but I consistently feel shocked at how low he will go. He also has started a smear campaign with friends and family. I am documenting what I can, and those who know me well are not falling for it, but dang this is incredibly hard. I also have one friend I feel I cant talk to now who keeps comparing her normal divorce to mine and thinking I should make more concessions to "get it done quick". She makes comments that imply I am doing something to create all this negativity and anger at me. I just don't need anymore victim blaming. Trying to raise my 4 kids during Covid and fearing what crazy stuff my ex is doing to throw delay and monkey wrenches into our legal fight is so tiring. I don't have any expectations from this mediation now. Sounds like lying and accusing is his tactic thus far. Just glad there are others who can understand and relate.

[GaGrl]

I would be discouraged, also, in trying to talk about divorce with a friend who didn't have the same PD experience. Perhaps it is best to distance for awhile.

[palynne]

Yesterday was mediation. I am so tired of prepping so much and then it being strange. It was via zoom and my mediator "forgot" we were supposed to be in separate rooms so I saw my ex for a few minutes and he was strangely up or elated. Once we were in separate rooms the mediator spent two of our 3 hours with him and his attorney only to offer me what he has already offered me and to tell me what a great deal it was. The mediator who admitted she didn't have time to look over all the documents recommended I take the deal. Of course, I didn't but does this experience sound strange or typical? My attorney who was so confident going in seemed deflated and frustrated herself afterwards. And finally my ex is actually agreeing to pay for the custody evaluation and getting that started. It has been nearly 6 months now. Ugh, I'm so tired and even though the day wasn't emotional yesterday, I couldn't sleep and have been weepy today. Everything is fairly status quo, but the real sticking point for him was not wanting to pay spousal support. I was a stay at home mom for 15 years and only started working a year ago and for much less than he makes. Even with child support I would be barely above poverty. I'm still thinking we are going to end up in court, though at the last minute he told his attorney he would consider my counter and get back within a few days. I am cynical to say the least.

[worriedStepmom]

The mediator in my divorce told me upfront he generally spent more time in the room with the person being most unreasonable.  So in that case, it isn't surprising that your mediator spent so much time with your ex.  They have to talk the unreasonable person out of unreasonable demands.

[ForeverDad]

The typical scenario is that early in a case the disordered person is too entitled or controlling for a reasonable middle ground to be reached.  Sounds too like he's doing some posturing as "it wasn't all that bad".  So for most of us we too had failed mediations.  Doesn't mean that later on we didn't eventually reach settlements.

Very important that you get a very reputable and experienced Custody Evaluator.  Mine was a child psychologist.  Not only was mine surprisingly less expensive than most, his written conclusions were excellent.

[livednlearned]

I saw my ex for a few minutes and he was strangely up or elated

Under extreme stress, it's possible for people with severe mental illnesses to experience psychosis.

My ex behaved in a similar way. It was a defense mechanism to help deal with the profound distress he felt. I don't know that it's a conscious choice.

The mediator who admitted she didn't have time to look over all the documents recommended I take the deal.

Mediators want to settle. It's better for them and their reputation if they can bring parties to agreement. It sounds like she may be overwhelmed or underwater -- who can say what types of stress she is experiencing. She showed up unprepared and gave you a boilerplate performance. It's good that you know what you want and are prepared to move forward if necessary.

I applied radical acceptance to my divorce process. It went on a long time, cost more money than it needed to, and I treated it like a medical condition that I was going to have to learn to live with. Then, when the symptoms abated, I was pleasantly surprised. It took years to get there and I know it's not easy, but you are worth the time and effort to take care of yourself and your future. Hopefully this adversarial process will begin to move to your rear view mirror and you can move forward with your life. 

[palynne]

Thank you for the feedback. I've been crying off and on all week. For some reason the thought that things didn't have to be this way was looping in my head, but for 20 years I did all I could. It is incredible how some small part of my mind thinks there may have been something I could have done. The thing is he did dbt, he went to rehab, and he continued using drugs and mistreating us terribly. At least he backed down from his position that I should get nothing. I think his being so elated threw me off and scared me. Our custody evaluator is highly regarded- Harvard educated psychologist so I'm hoping it goes well. He chose her and I can't afford her, but I'll borrow if I have to. He seems to be choosing the most expensive folks from our lists and insisting we only use the one he chooses. I also found out he's been spending and enormous amount of money and is not working do to "stress" so I think getting some sort of lump sum for a settlement is better than relying on spousal. I am glad he says he will cover kids health insurance and thank you for letting me know the evaluator spends more time with unreasonable one. She kept telling us he was prepared to sacrifice and his lawyer was encouraging him to settle. I hope for my kids he can pull off some sort of normalcy, but sadly he has barely reached out. He sent a few 'pity me' emails to my teen and that's it. I'm sure he does feel lost and terrible on some level  and from his communication through lawyers he seems to still not understand that domestic violence is not ok even if you are "stressed" or "drunk". Ah well, this is life. Due to Covid, his criminal trial for the domestic violence is still months away.

[palynne]

Well it's been nearly 8 months and my stbx with bpd decided now he won't agree to financial stuff that we mediated on back in September. He has sent weird cards to my house with the writing blacked out all over it and sent my parents an eight page letter where it is very clear he doesn't think any of this has anything to do with him. He also listed them as his only references for our custody eval, which has just begun. He still will not agree to therapeutic visits with kids or drug/alcohol testing so hasn't seen them in 8 months. Due to Covid he has still not faced his criminal domestic violence charges and nothing in our divorce has been decided. I am trying to adjust to the fact that he probably can and will drag things out as long as possible. I feel angry as I knew that any back and forth between lawyers was a waste and we would have to go to trial. Feel exhausted over the whole thing and frustrated that the court system seems to be the perfect place for a disregulated and controlling person to continue to exert control over their spouse. Can anyone tell me how long their divorce took? I know Covid is prolonging everything, but I want to get a more realistic sense of how long this can take.

[ForeverDad]

When I first arrived here, what surprised me was that many members here stated they had avoided trials and walked out with settlements.  My experience was similar.  During my nearly two year divorce process we had to proceed along every item of the court's checklist — temp order, mediation attempt, parenting investigation, custody evaluation, settlement conference attempt, trial date, as well as a few continuances that delayed even more.

Yes, my mediation did fail, my settlement conference also failed.  But my trial was averted, we settled on Trial Day.  The trial was a bridge her lawyer warned her not to cross.

That's why I often report that many of us have settled, just that it's rare when early in the divorce process, the ex's sense of entitlement and control is usually too strong at first.

Your stbEx seems to be okay with no parental contact, though he could possibly address visitation issues if he made it a priority but he doesn't.  He'd rather use Denial, Blaming and Shift Blame elsewhere, such as onto you.  It just "is" and you have to accept that his perceptions and perspective probably won't change.  Maybe focused therapy could help him, but apparently most who are acting-out disordered refuse to seriously address their issues.

Throw nasty COVID-19 into the equation and yes everything is taking even longer than before.  Our cases overall take a timeline similar to what has been said about recovery... Recovery is a process, not an event.

[MeandThee29]

Mine took a year and settled out of court. No custody issues, no real estate, and no business interests, so it should have taken a few months. Before you get jealous, I'm still in closeout. My attorney is predicting the first quarter of 2021 after over a year in that phase. Yes, more of the same in what should have taken a few months.

I was very fortunate to have an older attorney who announced his retirement when we were still repeatedly slicing-and-dicing. He divided up his cases among the other lawyers and kept only two trials and a handful of cases that he thought he could finish before he retired. Mine was one he kept. So he was emailing me and calling me every few days and in constant contact with my ex's attorney until the agreement got signed. We did threaten court before that happened, but it was a very measured choice. The divorce was final the day before his retirement, and my case went to his associate.

The pandemic slowed several issues down to a snail's pace, and then the rest. Why ever did I think it was over when the judge signed the final order? Oh well...

[palynne]

Had my first interview with custody evaluator and it wasn't as bad as I thought so that was good, though reliving some of the abuse was difficult. What was hard was reading the questionnaire he filled out. He claims to now not be borderline? Claims we were "mutually abusive" even though he admits to physical, verbal, and emotional abuse. Accused me of alienation even though I have documents showing the number of offers I have made to him on visitation and then went on at length about his struggles with ptsd due to working close to where George Floyd was killed. Then after pages and pages of blaming my being "angry with him" for his abuse of me says that he thinks of me every day, still loves me and that I'm his best friend. It was like reading a 30 page summary of the rollercoaster I was on for 20 years. I can't and will never understand him, nor do I understand how his therapist who diagnosed him as borderline is now changing her mind. 

[worriedStepmom]

There's a possibility the therapist changed her diagnosis, but a much bigger possibility that he's just decided it isn't true.  Or that he doesn't have to document that if the diagnosis was made by a therapist and not a psychiatrist.