Talking about BPD parent with teen kids

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I've been trying to use the search function here to find previous discussions about this topic, but haven't really had much luck. I'm sure there's bound to be some previous threads, so sorry for starting a new one.

I am currently separated from my uBPDsbxw, initiated by her in January. We both agree to proceed with divorce after the one year required by law, though I could file now for fault-based divorce because she jumped into a new relationship within 3 months of the physical separation. Her behavior related to the new relationship is distressing; the fact that she brought home a complete stranger she met on the internet and introduced him to our two teen daughters within 2-3 weeks of meeting him, and enlisting them to lie to me and cover it up belies her claim that her kids are her number one priority. I refrain from disparaging my wife to the girls, but do talk to them at times, primarily when they mention something that bothers them. My older daughter even noted that her mom has some borderline traits. Hmmm, how perceptive of you, young lady.

Anytime we discuss the separation, family dynamics, etc I always preface it by saying I do not want to disparage her or undermine their relationship with their mother. She is very high-functioning, but I believe she has contributed greatly to my older daughter's issues (she is greatly enmeshed and I believe she fostered some of our daughter's maladptive behaviors by identifying so greatly with her and trying to rescue her during my daughter's periods of significant depression and acting out). There has been a lot of projection, and projective identification.

My younger daughter (14) is much like me, and my uBPDsbxw treats her much differently than D18. In fact, she treats her a lot like me, though not as severely (yet anyway). So I'm not sure how, or to what degree I discuss these issues with them. When the dating issue was revealed I asked my uBPDsbxw if she felt she was modeling good relationship behavior and dynamics. She claimed she was because it was a "healthy relationship". Ummm, OK. As a result the main thing I want to stress to them is that they are NOT witnessing healthy relationship dynamics. But in doing so, I need to figure out how not to disparage my wife's action. That seems a contradictory proposition.

Thanks for any thoughts or experiences you can share.

[Crispy Waffle]

I've been trying to use the search function here to find previous discussions about this topic, but haven't really had much luck. I'm sure there's bound to be some previous threads, so sorry for starting a new one.

I am currently separated from my uBPDsbxw, initiated by her in January. We both agree to proceed with divorce after the one year required by law, though I could file now for fault-based divorce because she jumped into a new relationship within 3 months of the physical separation. Her behavior related to the new relationship is distressing; the fact that she brought home a complete stranger she met on the internet and introduced him to our two teen daughters within 2-3 weeks of meeting him, and enlisting them to lie to me and cover it up belies her claim that her kids are her number one priority. I refrain from disparaging my wife to the girls, but do talk to them at times, primarily when they mention something that bothers them. My older daughter even noted that her mom has some borderline traits. Hmmm, how perceptive of you, young lady.

Anytime we discuss the separation, family dynamics, etc I always preface it by saying I do not want to disparage her or undermine their relationship with their mother. She is very high-functioning, but I believe she has contributed greatly to my older daughter's issues (she is greatly enmeshed and I believe she fostered some of our daughter's maladptive behaviors by identifying so greatly with her and trying to rescue her during my daughter's periods of significant depression and acting out). There has been a lot of projection, and projective identification.

My younger daughter (14) is much like me, and my uBPDsbxw treats her much differently than D18. In fact, she treats her a lot like me, though not as severely (yet anyway). So I'm not sure how, or to what degree I discuss these issues with them. When the dating issue was revealed I asked my uBPDsbxw if she felt she was modeling good relationship behavior and dynamics. She claimed she was because it was a "healthy relationship". Ummm, OK. As a result the main thing I want to stress to them is that they are NOT witnessing healthy relationship dynamics. But in doing so, I need to figure out how not to disparage my wife's action. That seems a contradictory proposition.

Thanks for any thoughts or experiences you can share.

[worriedStepmom]

Do your girls go to therapy?  That's a good place for them to work out some of the trauma from their parents divorcing (as well as the trauma of having a mentally unhealthy parent).

My stepdaughter is 13 (SD13) and has a mom with uBPD.  My biokids are 11 and 14, and although their dad doesn't have a PD, he's been married twice since our divorce.

H and I work really hard not to talk about their other parents' lives.  We model the life lessons we want the kids to have without referencing our exes.  It's important that you do show your girls how to choose relationships wisely, and you can have LOTS of opportunities to do this without mentioning mom.  Talk to them about what you'll be looking for in a partner ("one day, after mom and I are divorced and I've had time to heal properly").  Listen to their gossip about friends and talk to them about whether they think so-and-so's relationship is healthy or not.  You can use celebrity gossip or movie/book character relationships too.

We haven't told SD13 that we think her mom has BPD.  We did explain to her a few years ago that mom's brain interprets things differently than H's and mine and focuses on different information than ours does.   We wanted her to know that mom's interpretations weren't her fault.  We do a lot of validation of her feelings, and we and her therapist have helped her to develop boundaries around her mom.

[livednlearned]

I'm not convinced our families can hear logic, words, facts so great  

The damage in our families is a pathologic dysfunction of emotion exacerbated to a tragic degree by a BPD parent. Many spouses of a BPD parent want to double down on the same thing that hasn't ever worked, which is to explain, justify, argue, defend, etc. the behaviors.

Instead, I encourage you to read about emotional resilience in kids when one parent has BPD. It starts, continues, and ends with validation, which is easy to understand and much harder to practice (well). If you have that under your belt already, the next place I would go is Bill Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids When One Parent has BPD. For me, that book freed me from the fiction that my ex was going to change, and empowered me to look at what I could do different for my son's well-being, not to mention my own. It changed our lives, that book.

The other book that is often recommended here is Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak. What I like about the book is that he discusses various forms of alienation or brainwashing, if you will, and then recommends language you can use when those scenarios come up. Depending on the severity of your ex's pathologic parenting, you might only need a third of the book but that third will be a beacon of light in an otherwise dark night of the soul. If your spouse is severely pathologic, it might be the only book to go there and help you learn how to hang onto the relationships you have with your girls.

When your older daughter mentioned her mom having BPD traits, how did you respond?

[Crispy Waffle]

livednlearned, you hit the nail on the head. I have been moving swiftly through this process and coming to terms with the stark reality that my uBPDsbxf will likely never change. And that is partly at the heart of the matter; I want to make sure my daughters are insulated from, and aware of her potentially destructive behavior. But I don't want to do so in a way that will poison the well, alienate them from her, etc.

I'll check out those books, as they sound like an excellent starting point. Both girls have therapists and I have been feeding them (therapists) a bit of background on things to help them explore some of the issues that the girls have raised with me in conversation. For now I'm keeping a firewall in place and I discuss how to approach these issues with my own therapist so that I don't put my kids in the middle. But I do try to set the record straight when their mom lies to them or tries to distort the narrative in a way that is harmful to them or my relationship with them. Fortunately my wife is high-functioning and hasn't been massively destructive (yet). My primary intent is to strengthen my relationship with them, repair damage from the past (part of which was induced by their mother's behaviors), and be a role model to them.

When D18 mentioned her mother's BPD-type traits, I asked "why do you say that?" and listened to her describe some of what she has seen. I then simply noted that was an interesting observation and that I didn't know what was at the root of her mom's issues, but that she may be onto something. I am careful to not assign a label or diagnosis to their mother, and I'm cognizant of not engaging in "joining"; i.e. stating that she does the same thing to me. I try to simply listen, and I'll suggest that they share concerns with their mother, or if uncomfortable doing so, with their therapists.

[Baglady]

Hi Crispy 

From my vantage point, it looks like you really have a great handle on how to navigate the issue of BPD with your daughters 

Props to your eldest for being so perceptive - wish I'd had her insight oh...27 years ago when I met my ex 

I really work hard to talk neutrally about my ex with my teen son.  I also don't assign any labels.  My ex was high functioning, had a psychotic break with outrageous and abusive behaviors and now seems to have stabilized back to being relatively high functioning again.  A lot of people seem to think that we went through a typical divorce from the outside - grew apart etc. - how far from the truth!  My son witnessed his Dad's mental breakdown but he is so happy to see how relatively stable his Dad is now so much that he airbrushes the past and talks up about everything is all good with him presently (I really don't know because I'm almost NC with my ex for my own safety).  It's really hard to listen to my son sweep the behavior around his father's horrendous discard of me under the carpet but I just bite my tongue for my son's sake.  No matter my enormous personal hurt and abiding sense of injustice, the fact is that a higher functioning BPD father is in the best interests of my son.

I just try everyday to role-model being a good human for my son by choosing to go high instead of going low.  Some days I'm more successful than others and that's ok.

Warmly,
B

[MeandThee29]

All good responses.

It's really difficult to parent in these situations. Your kids have grown up in difficulty, and now their lives are upended by separation. It's not just now that is the problem, it goes way back. I was blindsided more than once by how hard it was on them to have their parents living many states apart, selling the only house they had ever known, dealing with the financial struggles, etc. etc. when I was barely keeping my head above water myself. My ex moved many states away and had very little to do with them, so I had to deal with their feelings of abandonment and my own.

I'm glad that I worked very hard though to be positive and to never, ever push them in drawing their own conclusions. I did a lot of listening and validating while secretly falling apart inside, but that is what they needed. I didn't take on their emotions and kept my own in check. I focused on my relationship with them, and let their relationship with my ex fall as it may. There were long periods of time where they didn't talk at all about my now-ex.

In time both did their own research and figured out a lot of things that they didn't initially tell me, but I didn't lead them that way. I found out that they talked a lot with each other and separately with their friends about it, which was fine. Both saw a therapist who told me that she was pretty much doing the same thing, trying to encourage their thinking about different things that happened and what makes up healthy responses to conflict, unhealthy people, etc.

I didn't share divorce details with them other than high-level information and of course what my schedule was with that so they knew when I was gone and when I'd be back. My oldest had to sign an affidavit with one of my attorneys in the office, and that was unexpectedly emotional for my young adult. The younger one talked a few times about "our divorce" which really threw me because they knew so little. Just goes to show that you don't know entirely what is going on.

I have a number of Bill Eddy's books, and they are excellent. My main attorney was very familiar with his work. The one on parental alienation was recently updated and is really helpful for these types of things.

[ForeverDad]

My son witnessed his Dad's mental breakdown but he is so happy to see how relatively stable his Dad is now so much that he airbrushes the past and talks up about everything is all good with him presently (I really don't know because I'm almost NC with my ex for my own safety).  It's really hard to listen to my son sweep the behavior around his father's horrendous discard of me under the carpet but I just bite my tongue for my son's sake.

My son is now an adult and he typically doesn't want to discuss the past craziness and angry triggered parent.  However, he will mention current problems.  Sort of, address the demons in front of you but let sleeping dogs lie?

I often mention a perspective that BPD is a disorder of moods and blaming that is most evident to those closest to the person.  Once you're off at a distance the worst of them can subside, though not entirely.  The other hasn't necessarily recovered, it's just your distance allows the person to be less triggered.

I've been living a separate life for years after the divorce and now that my son is grown my ex has been behaving much better, though I still have to beware of triggering her.

[MeandThee29]

I often mention a perspective that BPD is a disorder of moods and blaming that is most evident to those closest to the person.  Once you're off at a distance the worst of them can subside, though not entirely.  The other hasn't necessarily recovered, it's just your distance allows the person to be less triggered.

Interesting. Yes, the therapist warned me about that during our long-distance separation. She said that he might get significantly better apart without me around and feel that he was ready for reconciliation. But the truth was that the core issues would quickly re-bloom unless there has been long-term professional help with addressing them.

That was very much the case when we had to be around each other some months into separation for a few days  to handle some business things. It quickly went totally off the rails, just as she had predicted. He was utterly triggered and said all kinds of wild things that he later denied. I was the problem, period. I also found out that what he reported to his relatives about that time was totally different than my own experience. I didn't engage with them on that, but it was eye-opening. In the end, they decided that I was the crazy, horrible one anyway.

His attorney was stymied by what happened during the divorce process. Apparently I was public enemy #1 in my now-ex's eyes as it progressed despite all evidence to the contrary. There was a lot of crazy-making that really confused his attorney to the point that he actually called mine once to ask what I was like. My attorney said that I was a model client, respectful and responsive and very easy to work with.

It's still all so sad to me, but there had to be an end to it. I doubt that our paths will ever cross again. Both young adults chose to join me in no contact (no pressure from me).

[MeandThee29]

Duplicate -- sorry.

[Crispy Waffle]

Baglady, I don't know that I have a great handle on it. Maybe a great handle that is loosely attached to the bag which occasionally tears off, spilling and breaking the contents. Ugh.

I'm trying, but it is hard. The good thing is that both of my kids are no dummies. The younger one is cynical like me, and sees through the BS, even if she can't always articulate it. She called her mom out twice today, and I just largely kept my mouth shut. I won't join in, but I will certainly allow her to have her feelings and perceptions about her mom, especially when they are accurate. Her mother is getting more brazen with her lies lately. My main concern is that my uBPDstxw seems to be engaging in some poor behaviors regarding D14. She'll throw her under the bus, claiming she is lying when D14 reveals my wife has been lying about me, or not covering up her (mom's lies) for her. I already shared with D14's therapist (w/ mom present) that I was concerned about her displaying behavior that might represent devaluing our daughter and scapegoating her. D14 is very much like me, and D18 is mom's little girl (to the point of being incredibly enmeshed). I worry that she will start treating D14 like me since she sees her as a minim me. If it is apparent that is taking place I'll file for sole custody.

[Crispy Waffle]

Ugh, I'm posting here more as a therapeutic outlet than anything. I just watched the video "Maybe it's more than just a bad day" on the page about Jekyll & Hyde; https://bpdfamily.com/content/Dr-Jekyll-and-Mr-Hyde

It's the first time I've cried since coming to terms with much of this in the past few weeks. The video hit on so many of the covert issues that I have come to recognize in hindsight, as well as identifying the confusing and hurtful actions my uBPDstbxw has been taking since the start of our separation.

It leaves you grasping at solutions on how mitigate the damage. I cautiously engaged D18 in a conversation last night about why she mentioned seeing BPD traits in her mom. I mostly sat and listened and simply shared my concerns regarding any of those behaviors impacting her and her younger sister, and avoided joining. I heard some of D14's conversation with her therapist yesterday as they discussed some of the items I brought to the therapist's attention. My girls are good at presenting a sunny outlook, but it is clear they are distressed by this. And fortunately they both recognize the treatment that I have received. I don't join in that, or even acknowledge it generally, but it's so reassuring to know that they recognize I'm not the bad guy that my wife has continually made me out to be.

The continued bright spot is that this whole mess has forced me to own my stuff and really engage with my girls, including apologizing for my role in the marital/family problems over the years. For so long I couldn't because of the guilt I felt as a result of the gaslighting from my wife, making me feel like I was responsible for all of the marital ills. It was so overwhelming that I felt like I couldn't talk to them because I had done so much damage (according to my wife). My girls and I will all be healthier in the long run as a result. But damn, this hurdle is high.

Thanks for letting me emote.

[livednlearned]

Crispy Waffle, pull up a chair and emote all you want 

I remember reading somewhere that finding the growth in trauma is a sign your outcome will be positive, and it sounds like you are on that trajectory. It will make a huge difference in the lives of your girls to witness your own healing.

How did the girls take your apology?

[Crispy Waffle]

lnl, thanks; my chair is becoming well worn from the time in front of the computer. 

Honestly, despite my wife playing the stereotypical "I'm not BPD, you are" card, I've come to realize that I'm not crazy, and not the one with BPD, precisely because I've quickly adopted my responsibility to learn from this, grow, do a deep personal inventory, own my issues, and make myself a better person, as well as make amends to those who I have wronged. That alone has been quite liberating, though I'm just scratching the surface.

Both girls have been very accepting of my apologies. Kids need honesty, validation, security, love, etc. They don't need us to be perfect. I think they both recognize who is making the effort in all of this, and who isn't. Honestly, they are seeing things for the first time as well, and I think they both realize the emperor has no clothes.

And we've had a real breakthrough in communication. It was just as I was starting to recognize what was happening that I started that process. I told D18 that I have never felt like I could really be open with her, nor she with me, partly because she was momma's little girl. It almost felt like she wasn't even my kid. That's partly why it is so reassuring to hear her describe how her mom's BPD traits have been largely aimed at me. Despite the enmeshment and her own dark issues, she's a smart cookie, wise beyond her years and I finally feel like we are connected on a deeper level. If it weren't for the kids, I could just walk away from the lunacy. If it weren't for the kids demonstrating quietly that they value their relationship with me, I would become the lunacy (or worse). They are the glue that holds me together and make me realize that I have it pretty good, all things considered, and they help keep my head above water, knowing I have to keep my S*^t together for them.

[Baglady]

Hi Crispy 

I've also found the same silver lining to the travesty of having a long-term partner with BPD in that
I have a truly wonderful relationship with my teen as a result (even if he doesn't want to really talk about his father much with me).  Our bond seemingly goes a lot deeper and is more authentic than that of a lot of typical relationships that I witness between a lot of kids/parents who have not weathered the same level of adversity together.  It is a connection forged through our simultaneous experience of a lot of pain and suffering that was quite isolating.  So many normal people just do not get this level of turmoil in a family and thankfully so.  I'm so regretful that my teen had to grow up so soon and so fast and it's not an experience that I would wish on any child.  However, it has definitely brought us closer together without a doubt.  Gotta celebrate whatever good we can.

Warmly 
B

[MeandThee29]

Hi Crispy 

I've also found the same silver lining to the travesty of having a long-term partner with BPD in that
I have a truly wonderful relationship with my teen as a result (even if he doesn't want to really talk about his father much with me).  Our bond seemingly goes a lot deeper and is more authentic than that of a lot of typical relationships that I witness between a lot of kids/parents who have not weathered the same level of adversity together.  It is a connection forged through our simultaneous experience of a lot of pain and suffering that was quite isolating.  So many normal people just do not get this level of turmoil in a family and thankfully so.  I'm so regretful that my teen had to grow up so soon and so fast and it's not an experience that I would wish on any child.  However, it has definitely brought us closer together without a doubt.  Gotta celebrate whatever good we can.

Warmly 
B

Yes, same here. Mine were both in college when my ex went many states away. We had some really difficult years, but now things are so good. I didn't give up on them, and they didn't give up on me.