Extinction bursts, new levels Part 2

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=346026.0

Your "requirements" to be intimate with your husband are up to you.

If you want intimacy...you have to require it.

If you want foreplay...you have to require it.


Most guys will do what is needed to get their version of intimacy, most won't go above and beyond.

I'm not saying that is right or wrong...I'm saying that an "it is what it is thing".

So if intimacy with you doesn't "require" foreplay, being nice...etc etc...it's unlikely your husband will do those things.

That's a very simplified version, but for these purposes...I think simple is appropriate.

Why did you husband let you know his...you know...was itching.  Well...my guess is in his mind that approach works for him.

You (not he) gets to determine what approach works.

Is this the issue or approach that I recommend you take right now...no it's not.  I think you should get an order of protection against him (no need to rehash all the reasoning)...

But...you need to pick something to "take back".  So for now if you are going to let the guns and threats slide, but are willing to "take back" your sleep and your intimacy...well I think that is a step toward a healthier you.

Please read that a couple of times...it's important to understand my intent.  Something is better than nothing.

I do think that you will think more clearly with more and better sleep.

I've lost count of the number of bad decisions I've made in sleep deprivation.

Best,

FF

Ff,
I will reread in the morning one more time, but in the meanwhile- When I got home after a quick errand run- he started saying the following “so how much do you need per month to cover your bills and expanses?”. I calmly stated the amount and left. He got back to the same topic several times when he saw me. He then proceeded to ask him what I was doing this evening. Ironically, I don’t remember the last time he asked me this question. I had a support group for loved ones of people diagnosed with mental illness in my city. Lots of valuable info partaking to laws and involuntary hospitalization that I don’t know was an option. I told him I was working as I didn’t want him to sabotage my plan. I had an hour before the group and he insistently called me to the basement “to help him with something”. When I came, he stated kissing me (wow, it’s been months) and tell me he missed me (again, wow). I gave into advances, because it was better then the first several advances, I wanted to reinforce his effort. I’m now sitting back and thinking on what you wrote to me...

[snowglobe]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=346026.0

Your "requirements" to be intimate with your husband are up to you.

If you want intimacy...you have to require it.

If you want foreplay...you have to require it.


Most guys will do what is needed to get their version of intimacy, most won't go above and beyond.

I'm not saying that is right or wrong...I'm saying that an "it is what it is thing".

So if intimacy with you doesn't "require" foreplay, being nice...etc etc...it's unlikely your husband will do those things.

That's a very simplified version, but for these purposes...I think simple is appropriate.

Why did you husband let you know his...you know...was itching.  Well...my guess is in his mind that approach works for him.

You (not he) gets to determine what approach works.

Is this the issue or approach that I recommend you take right now...no it's not.  I think you should get an order of protection against him (no need to rehash all the reasoning)...

But...you need to pick something to "take back".  So for now if you are going to let the guns and threats slide, but are willing to "take back" your sleep and your intimacy...well I think that is a step toward a healthier you.

Please read that a couple of times...it's important to understand my intent.  Something is better than nothing.

I do think that you will think more clearly with more and better sleep.

I've lost count of the number of bad decisions I've made in sleep deprivation.

Best,

FF

Ff,
I will reread in the morning one more time, but in the meanwhile- When I got home after a quick errand run- he started saying the following “so how much do you need per month to cover your bills and expanses?”. I calmly stated the amount and left. He got back to the same topic several times when he saw me. He then proceeded to ask him what I was doing this evening. Ironically, I don’t remember the last time he asked me this question. I had a support group for loved ones of people diagnosed with mental illness in my city. Lots of valuable info partaking to laws and involuntary hospitalization that I don’t know was an option. I told him I was working as I didn’t want him to sabotage my plan. I had an hour before the group and he insistently called me to the basement “to help him with something”. When I came, he stated kissing me (wow, it’s been months) and tell me he missed me (again, wow). I gave into advances, because it was better then the first several advances, I wanted to reinforce his effort. I’m now sitting back and thinking on what you wrote to me...

[formflier]

So...you did or did not go to your group?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

FF asked a good question--

Did you go to your group?

The timing of his advances is interesting. You are about to do something for you to improve your mental health and he wants intimacy right at that moment?

When you feel unatractive because he leaves the bedroom- that is you doing this to you. Your attractiveness does not change by the day or the moment. Your H doesn't define it. Yes, it is nice to have others feel we are attractive but our own self image needs to be something we have, not something others control. If you are attractive one day you don't turn unatractive the next day. Also, consider that being attractive includes more than physical attributes.

"my -----------it itching?" well then go scratch it. Really - it's his problem to take care of his itchy thing. You don't have to accept this kind of speech. It's OK to treat him like an adult. A grown man knows better than to consider this a romantic invitation.

[Notwendy]

Snowglobe-
I think your family and friends care very much about you. Why do you think they have given up?

My closest friends and confidants are outraged, and confused as to why I still have not done anything. Even my parents stopped begging me to stay.

To many of you- yes, I cognitively process the fact that he is unwell and perhaps unstable and dangerous.

Yet, I’m holding on to the idea that he will 1.  come to senses  2. I will get a miraculous advice from the professional as to how to get him the help he needs.



These are related. Your family and friends care about you, but they are powerless to change your thinking---just like you don't have the power to change your husband's thinking.

It's possible that they too are hoping for a miracle- to see you get the help you need to deal with this situation. But they are also realistic and know that they can't control whether or not this happens.

It's really hard to watch someone indulge in self destructive behavior. You know this from watching your H do this. But allowing your H to treat you and your family like he does is also self destructive behavior. You know it's disrupting your sleep and your well being.

The kind of intermittent reinforcement from your H's behavior is the most powerful of all. One moment he rejects you, the next moment, seduces you, acts affectionate and then abusive. It's a high/low and replicates the highs and lows of a drug by impacting your neurotransmitters. Sex and love produce good feeling ones, the rejection is a low, just as if you took a drug.

When he leaves the bedroom, it's withdrawal.

Being addicted to drugs is self destructive,  but addicts can't stop on their own. They need help.

I know you have tried to make changes but I agree with ct2128- I think help from a therapist and lawyer is needed here.  I am not blaming you - I think anyone is prone to addictions and it takes help and therapy to break them.

Your family and friends have not given up on you. I think they still care about you. I wonder if they just feel powerless to help- and it's hard for them to see.

Some of this is mystery. I watched my father tolerate behaviors from BPD mother that I could not understand. If I could have helped him, I would have, and I certainly tried- naively and unsuccesfully. I didn't expect him to leave my mother. I just didn't understand how he allowed her to treat him so cruelly and horribly. But occasionally she'd be affectionate to him. In a way he was addicted to her, so much that nothing else mattered, not his own well being, not his kids ( he chose to ignore her abuse of us and protect her- just like you won't report your H's abuse of your kids).

Yes, he did care for us too. ( you care for your kids). He provided what we needed materially and he loved us. But his number one focus was my mother- and her needs.

Your H is your focus.

I'm not being critical here. It's an observation.  Ultimately, I had to accept that he also made his choices.

You aren't a bad person or a bad parent. I am not being critical of you. But you are human and I think you could be addicted to your H. The people in your life who care about you may have had to realize this.

[babyducks]

When you feel unattractive because he leaves the bedroom- that is you doing this to you. Your attractiveness does not change by the day or the moment. Your H doesn't define it.

Notwendy is 100% spot on.     

You get to decide for yourself how attractive you are.   You choose how much value you have.   You determine how lovable you are.    This is up to you.

also waiting to hear how the group meeting went.

[Notwendy]

and attraction isn't just sexual.

Some of the most attractive people I have met are not classic beauties or movie star handsome. There is just something about them that is attractive. It's a combination of how they carry themselves, interact with others. It's their own self image. You can have this too.

Some attractiveness is also physical chemistry but in a long term relationship people see us at our best, and our worse. Right now, many of us need haircuts, have a few Covid pounds from not getting out and about. We aren't rejecting our partners over a few gray hairs and pounds. We are more than this.

You are too.

[snowglobe]

So...you did or did not go to your group?

Best,

FF

Ff, I had a virtual group meeting, it’s by weekly online since COVID. My reality pretty much matched most of the members there, lots of physical aggression, mediating consequences, substance use and conflict. I got access to several other support programs and trainings through them, Leary of involuntary hospitalization for pSychosis. Undiagnosed husband fits into bipolar 2 comorbid with bpd like a glove.

[snowglobe]

FF asked a good question--

Did you go to your group?

The timing of his advances is interesting. You are about to do something for you to improve your mental health and he wants intimacy right at that moment?

When you feel unatractive because he leaves the bedroom- that is you doing this to you. Your attractiveness does not change by the day or the moment. Your H doesn't define it. Yes, it is nice to have others feel we are attractive but our own self image needs to be something we have, not something others control. If you are attractive one day you don't turn unatractive the next day. Also, consider that being attractive includes more than physical attributes.

"my -----------it itching?" well then go scratch it. Really - it's his problem to take care of his itchy thing. You don't have to accept this kind of speech. It's OK to treat him like an adult. A grown man knows better than to consider this a romantic invitation.

Wendy, I attended the group session, the 2 hrs flew by, They have me tools and options for involuntary hospitalization and treatment. In Canada, if I cal the police and paramedics during visible psychosis, he will go through involuntary assessment, , if it is confirmed, I can go in front of the civic judge and request him to be treated, giving access to the children and still being with the family. He will get monthly injections of anti-psychotic medication and mood stabilizer monthly. Some members there have not had a loved one relapse on this program for over 7 years. Regarding advancements- 2 of them were in poor taste and the third one looked like genuine full of longing. I didn’t accept juvenile immature treatment initially

[babyducks]

Ff, I had a virtual group meeting, it’s by weekly online since COVID. My reality pretty much matched most of the members there, lots of physical aggression, mediating consequences, substance use and conflict. I got access to several other support programs and trainings through them, Leary of involuntary hospitalization for pSychosis. Undiagnosed husband fits into bipolar 2 comorbid with bpd like a glove.

Remind me again when your husband became psychotic?

[formflier]

  during visible psychosis

How many people in the group had successfully done this versus how many people had paramedics determine there was no visible psychosis?

So...is it accurate to summarize that you believe that if your husband is involuntarily (or voluntarily) injected that he will be somewhat better?  Do I have that right?

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

Thank you all for being on my journey, I finally have an intake today in the afternoon for DBT treatment. It comes on the heels of last night, first undiagnosed husband did yard work while I was attending the support group,  so it was relatively peaceful. Second, during the meeting, while listening to other members speaking of their loved ones and their journey and struggles to get their children and partners into treatments, they were talking in years. The non compliance with medication is a huge factor, with majority of sufferers refusing the treatment, much like undiagnosed husband. The options I can explore it terms of enforcing the treatment and courses I should take partaking to the successful diagnosis and the subsequent treatment. I have glimpses of hope now, even if he will not agree to the treatment, I can still make it happen, provided the diagnosis will be confirmed, which I’m sadly certain about. They even advised me in which state of mania to get the authorities involved to maximize the success. The fact that I am not leaving him and will provide the additional support- medication is not enough to deal with bipolar, he needs multi disciplinary team- psychiatrist, psychotherapist, case worker and a nurse. I got on the wait list for the 8 weeks program for Sushbear to start planning for the intervention for my undiagnosed husband. Last night I witnessed the parents of the men, around the same age as my husband recalling almost identical events, many of them were oblivious to what their sons were doing and how they were behaving until their partners left them. The aftermath is the same- deep depression, that alternates in mania which results in emotional and physical abuse. I feel like there is a glimmer of hope now, this will not be easy, but with my own support in place I think I can pull him to shore. I’m being honest with you guys- I want to help him, I want to help my children, I want to help myself. I don’t know what kind of person he is without the mental illness, I want to find that out. I know he won’t “love me” or even see the treatment forced as deception, but it will really start moving into the right direction if I can make it happen. The government will cease all weapons from the house, they will do monthly welfare checks and ensure he is medication compliant, if he doesn’t show up or get his shots, the case manager will get the police involved. This is one step before conservatorship in my area. I’m also very nervous for today’s intake session for myself, I finally got into the program I wanted for so long with qualified practitioner. Thank you for still being here with me

[snowglobe]

Remind me again when your husband became psychotic?

He had manias all throughout our relationships, if you recall the “Jews have to die” in 2018 were one of them. He alternated between hypomania  and depression, rapid cycling, which is likely bipolar 2.

[snowglobe]

How many people in the group had successfully done this versus how many people had paramedics determine there was no visible psychosis?

So...is it accurate to summarize that you believe that if your husband is involuntarily (or voluntarily) injected that he will be somewhat better?  Do I have that right?

Best,

FF

Ff, we have a specialized hospital in the area which I can ask him to be taken for evaluation. Now, I see your point, what if he isn’t “manic” enough to be admitted. That is why I wait until I have an indication that he can not control it. The forced medication compliance is my plan for now, I know he won’t take anything orally on a regular basis. The peer support worker who was leading the session was advising me to go through the process based on the other member’s success and her own loved one, who was free of symptoms for many years. With bipolar he won’t be able to control it, it’s not likely, so while I’m taking the course to prepare for his intervention I will be keeping detailed journal here. I will also be doing reality check with my own therapist to ensure that I’m not having “magical thinking” approach.

[formflier]

the case manager will get the police involved. 

A genuine question.

It seems to me that there has long been a reluctance to accurately describe/report your husbands behavior and assaults on family members to the authorities.  If my memory serves me correctly...you seemed doubtful they would be able to do anything or that it would work or that they would believe you (or some combination of those and other factors).

So...largely his behavior has gone unreported (yes..some of it has been..I do acknowledge this).

Yet now, it appears to me that your plan is to get the same ineffectual people/agencies/authorities involved to remove him kicking ...screaming and/or otherwise resisting and somehow restrain him while they inject him with substances that will stabilize him enough so that he can live with you and your family in the periods of time in between when they drag him from your home to inject him.

Couple things.

1.  Have I accurately summarized your plan?
2.  What do you imagine your therapist will say when you ask if this plan constitutes magical thinking?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I’m afraid of going to the lawyer, I’m concerned it will change my mindset from fighting for the family to fighting to get out of the marriage.


I think this is the heart of it Snowglobe. Your choice is to stay together no matter what. Even if that "what" includes how your husband behaves. Any suggestion or action that might threaten your choice is not something you want to pursue.

The hope that he will somehow see the light and change is something you want to hold on to- whether it's possible or not. Since that is an area of uncertainty, you choose to hold on to as much hope as possible. The intermittent reinforcement from your H also fuels that hope. Sometimes he is affectionate, but other times abusive.

I feel for you being in this situation. It is really tough. But I don't think it's tough enough for you to let go of your wish to stay together no matter what. I think we all have our own ideas of what is intollerable- the point where we say "enough", but from your posts, you don't seem to be at this point.

[babyducks]

They have me tools and options for involuntary hospitalization and treatment. In Canada, if I cal the police and paramedics during visible psychosis, he will go through involuntary assessment,

in the USA its called the Baker Act.   I think in Canada its the Mental Health Act.  I believe the initial hold is restricted to 72 hours.    in both the USA and Canada the requirement is that the person is a danger to themselves, another person, or may unintentionally injure themselves, or the person’s condition is deteriorating and they require hospitalization.

what is the level of determining visible psychosis?

Second, during the meeting, while listening to other members speaking of their loved ones and their journey and struggles to get their children and partners into treatments, they were talking in years.

Yes I imagine that they were talking in years long efforts.    I am deeply curious to know what do you think your husband will be doing while you launch this years long effort to have him treated with out his consent?

 he needs multi disciplinary team- psychiatrist, psychotherapist, case worker and a nurse.

my Ex partner had this multi disciplinary team...with it she functioned better but then she was compliant with medication and very participatory in her treatment plan.

I got on the wait list for the 8 weeks program for Sushbear to start planning for the intervention for my undiagnosed husband.

can you say more about this 8 week program?    after this program do you believe you will be able to intervene with your husband ?

I don’t know what kind of person he is without the mental illness, I want to find that out.

he is still going to have a mental illness.   treatment does not make it "go away".   it give the person tools to help manage the illness.   if they choose too.

He had manias all throughout our relationships, if you recall the “Jews have to die” in 2018 were one of them. He alternated between hypomania  and depression, rapid cycling, which is likely bipolar 2.

so you are suggesting his manias rise to the level of psychosis?   that he has bipolar with psychotic features?    do you believe that all mania is psychotic?

my Ex was almost always in hypomania.   she preferred it that way.    that did not meet the criteria for involuntary treatment.    people with mental illness still have civil liberties.    I believe it is much more difficult to have Community Treatment Orders written than you are indicating here.

my Ex did reach the level of psychosis (even on treatment).   She had a particular focus/obsessions' on weather, storms, natural disasters.   The last time she reached psychosis level was during on a blizzard.   She believed the storm was sent to bring her a message,  punish her... and she went out into it wearing a tshirt.     previous to that.. she drove in a storm with out her hands on the wheel of the car because "the wind would make the car go where it needed to".   those were pretty psychotic moments.   during the second one I think she would have been transported to the local psychiatric hospital.   during the first one she would have been returned to a 'safe' environment.   i.e.  our home.

I find myself very concerned about this line of thinking/approach from you snowglobe.   I am concerned that your desire to 'save' him outpaces your ability to enact what you are describing.   In the bright light of day I hope you reconsider what you advocating for here.  

I finally have an intake today in the afternoon for DBT treatment. ../../..   I’m also very nervous for today’s intake session for myself, I finally got into the program I wanted for so long with qualified practitioner.

how did this go?   how was the intake session?

[I Am Redeemed]

in the USA its called the Baker Act.   I think in Canada its the Mental Health Act.  I believe the initial hold is restricted to 72 hours.    in both the USA and Canada the requirement is that the person is a danger to themselves, another person, or may unintentionally injure themselves, or the person’s condition is deteriorating and they require hospitalization.

what is the level of determining visible psychosis?

This is important, because it is possible for a person to be in a psychotic state and still not qualify for involuntary hospitalization.

My ex was once in a prolonged state of psychosis which prompted a diagnosis of Depression with Psychotic Features. He would watch the tv guide channel that showed the schedule and titles of what programs/movies were airing on each channel and he believed that people were purposely programming the tv stations to air programs/movies with titles that "correlated to his life" in order to send him a message. He thought that the signs outside churches and businesses were purposely created to send him messages. He believed there was a conspiracy against him and that his life was in danger and he tried to bully me into taking him to the FBI to "tell them what he knew".

None of this was enough for his therapist to have him involuntarily hospitalized. It was recommended to him and he was prescribed medication which he refused to take because he thought it was poisoning him. He did not do anything in front of the therapist that could be considered ''a danger to himself or others" so the criteria for involuntary hospitalization was not there. I reported his violence towards me to the therapist and was instructed to seek help from DV services and call the police if he assaulted me. There was no mental health recourse to get him treatment against his will.


Even if he is forced to undergo hospitalization, treatment, and meds, he is not going to snap out of a mental illness. His delusions may subside, his symptoms may be more manageable. But the best treatment team and meds in the world cannot give him empathy for you or your kids.

[babyducks]

Even if he is forced to undergo hospitalization, treatment, and meds, he is not going to snap out of a mental illness. His delusions may subside, his symptoms may be more manageable. But the best treatment team and meds in the world cannot give him empathy for you or your kids.

good point from Redeemed.

I would like to back up to this if we could.

In May you wrote this:

I spoke to the clinical psychologist today, as a reporter, I’m going to try and recall what I learnt from today’s session. Undiagnosed husband is likely npd (need for punishment, low self esteem, need for constant validating and flattery, sense of grandiosity and invisibility, attributing traits or achievements that aren’t his to begin with). Schizotypal personality disorder (lack of personal self care, social withdrawal, ideation and delusions of annihilation of the human race) and Bipolar disorder... there are some! Traits of bpd, but it’s more indicative of the comorbid mix. Psychologist told me that he has very poor insight (he spoke to undiagnosed husband on multiple occasions, that were related to family and kids) and therefor poor prognosis. He basically told me that I’m wasting my time and I should take the children and separate. The only chance, according to P that we have of changing this is if he will be forced to work out his issues without me being around.

as far as I know, this was the only professional qualified to make a diagnosis who has expressed one about your husband.

do you believe this to be accurate?   what do you think will happen with his NPD and Schizotypal personality disorder if he is medicated for Bipolar? 

I would suggest you avoid diagnosis shopping.    I would suggest you take the advice of qualified professionals.   

[formflier]

    I would suggest you take the advice of qualified professionals.  

Yes..yes, triple yes.  

It's one thing to get ideas from a support group and then discuss them with the appropriate qualified professional.  That's a good and wise course of action and one you appear to be contemplating with comments about discussing with your therapist the involuntary shot giving plan to see if there is magical thinking there.

That discussion is a good one to have and a good place to start.  

I would further hope/recommend that you ask your therapist to help you examine your patterns of thinking and decision making that relate to your husbands mental illness/behavior.

 

It's another thing to get information/communication from a qualified professional and then do...?   with it.  Can you step back for a minute and consider how that conversation that Babyducks is referencing changed you.

1.  Before that conversation I xyz.

2.  As a result of that conversation I now abc.


Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

Even if he is forced to undergo hospitalization, treatment, and meds, he is not going to snap out of a mental illness. His delusions may subside, his symptoms may be more manageable. But the best treatment team and meds in the world cannot give him empathy for you or your kids.

Redeemed, this last paragraph penetrated not only on emotional but cognitive level as well. My initial hope was- if I can facilitate the treatment and the veil of the illness will lift, his responses will be different, there will be accountability for his words and actions. Yet, I don’t know where it’s the illness and where is the real “him” in essence. I need to sit deep with this.

[snowglobe]

good point from Redeemed.

I would like to back up to this if we could.

In May you wrote this:

as far as I know, this was the only professional qualified to make a diagnosis who has expressed one about your husband.

do you believe this to be accurate?   what do you think will happen with his NPD and Schizotypal personality disorder if he is medicated for Bipolar? 

I would suggest you avoid diagnosis shopping.    I would suggest you take the advice of qualified professionals.   

Ducks, I hope the upcoming session with DBT trained P will allow me to go over the grief and acceptance of the current events. Everyday became harder to hold on with white knuckles. Today the sprinkler system malfunctioned, all it needs is fine tuning by the specialist. He went on the tangent  of the water costing us thousands of dollars (delusions and creating a climate of fear), him not wanting to sleep with me (he came back on the night of the support group), and that vacation he promised kids before school is cancelled because of the money running out with water. I’m not super happy about going away with a person in his state of emotional being, but the kids were looking forward to spending time away from home... I didn’t wait for more cussing and blaming me for the sprinkler system and wasting money on water, his needs for punishment and making someone pay, I simply got up and left the bed. I came to my son’s room and will take his daybed.

[snowglobe]

Yes..yes, triple yes.  

It's one thing to get ideas from a support group and then discuss them with the appropriate qualified professional.  That's a good and wise course of action and one you appear to be contemplating with comments about discussing with your therapist the involuntary shot giving plan to see if there is magical thinking there.

That discussion is a good one to have and a good place to start.  

I would further hope/recommend that you ask your therapist to help you examine your patterns of thinking and decision making that relate to your husbands mental illness/behavior.

 

It's another thing to get information/communication from a qualified professional and then do...?   with it.  Can you step back for a minute and consider how that conversation that Babyducks is referencing changed you.

1.  Before that conversation I xyz.

2.  As a result of that conversation I now abc.


Best,

FF

Ff,
The family psychologist who spoke to me may have the best interest of children at heart, but he won’t be the one paying for their college tuition, disability costs and put food on the table. This is a packaged deal. I stay, everyone is fed, clothed and educated. I leave, everyone will suffer greatly. I know undiagnosed husband will punish them if they choose to stay with me (the kids). I can not leave. I am working and trying to find exit and solution in a given circumstances. I’m trying to be resourceful.

[babyducks]

I can not leave. I am working and trying to find exit and solution in a given circumstances. I’m trying to be resourceful.

first - FF never said a word about you leaving.   He asked how your decision making is changing or has changed.  He asked how you identify magical thinking when it comes to your husband.

The family psychologist who spoke to me may have the best interest of children at heart, but he won’t be the one paying for their college tuition, disability costs and put food on the table. This is a packaged deal. I stay, everyone is fed, clothed and educated. I leave, everyone will suffer greatly

what are you saying here?    the children's financial well being is more important than their emotional health?  its okay to put the interests of the children second so long as you don't have to shoulder any financial responsibility?    You don't believe they are suffering now?    its okay to live in a house with a parent who has delusions and creates a climate of fear?

[formflier]

It's about thinking process/point of view...instead of conclusions.

I still have weekly sessions with my P.  A brand new (non-bpdish) issue came up regarding social media.  I'm not much of a social media person and was dismissive of giving this issue much "room" in my thinking.

Most of my session was her helping me see different points of view and different ways of thinking about the issue.

Never once did she say the post should be taken down, left up or modified.

At this moment, I'm not sure either...but I'm definitely giving the issue more "space" in m brain and I've reached out for some conversations with those involved.

Bottom line:  The conversation with the qualified professional was a turning point in my thinking/approach to the issue.

That's what I'm hoping you can reflect on and communicate to us.  How your thinking/approach/process changed as a result of your communication with family psychologist.  (let's limit your answer to this one professional for now)

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

first - FF never said a word about you leaving.   He asked how your decision making is changing or has changed.  He asked how you identify magical thinking when it comes to your husband.

what are you saying here?    the children's financial well being is more important than their emotional health?  its okay to put the interests of the children second so long as you don't have to shoulder any financial responsibility?    You don't believe they are suffering now?    its okay to live in a house with a parent who has delusions and creates a climate of fear?

Ducks,
According to Maslow’s hierarchy, food and shelter are superior needs to self- fulfilment and development. I am not minimizing my children’s distress from this living situation. What I am saying is, one child is almost out for college, I’m actively looking and Pursuing job leads. As responsible gun owner analogy, 2 parts. Don’t shoot when the warning flag is on and someone is on the field changing their targets, you don’t want to put them in crossfire, 2. Do not put your finger on the trigger unless you are ready to shoot. I’m not ready. My children are in the field. 

[snowglobe]

It's about thinking process/point of view...instead of conclusions.

I still have weekly sessions with my P.  A brand new (non-bpdish) issue came up regarding social media.  I'm not much of a social media person and was dismissive of giving this issue much "room" in my thinking.

Most of my session was her helping me see different points of view and different ways of thinking about the issue.

Never once did she say the post should be taken down, left up or modified.

At this moment, I'm not sure either...but I'm definitely giving the issue more "space" in m brain and I've reached out for some conversations with those involved.

Bottom line:  The conversation with the qualified professional was a turning point in my thinking/approach to the issue.

That's what I'm hoping you can reflect on and communicate to us.  How your thinking/approach/process changed as a result of your communication with family psychologist.  (let's limit your answer to this one professional for now)

Best,

FF

Thank you for clarifying Ff, I have the session booked for the first week of children’s school. I am aware of different points of view, I’m open to explore them. I’m sorry for going on the rant- last night was difficult, first time in my life I made an adult choice to leave the family bed to sleep elsewhere. He threatened to leave and punish the kids by taking away their back to school vacation. I realized I would not get any rest with the treats and impulsiveness around me, so I left. I surprisingly slept without nightmares or restlessness. Maybe if it is my choice, difficult decisions come easier.

[Notwendy]

Snowglobe, I think you have made your choices clear. You truly want to stay and help your H and the focus of your support groups is how they have attempted or succeeded to get their loved ones into help. Yes, it's difficult and hurtful at times, but this is your choice.

I watched, from the outsider perspective, my father in a decades long abusive relationship that also had its good moments. It was the package deal as you say. His main focus was on my mother, her moods, her wishes, her behavior. Yes, he loved his children and provided for us. You love your children too. But the whole family revolved around my mentally ill and untreated mother and enabling her.

You have stated that you don't want to consider any action that might change your mindset from "fighting for your family".  The questions, suggestions from other members or the family psychologist that might do this are not something you want to consider. You are correct, none of us are in your shoes or situation.

Perhaps it's us who needs to accept your choices and stop questioning otherwise. We can't change him and the tools here can help with relationship dynamics but we can't change your H or make him seek treatment. I also think there are parts of relationship dynamics that we just don't understand. You and your H match in ways and sometimes these matches, even if they are dysfunctional, are strong bonds between two people.

People change when they feel they have had enough of the emotional pain. I don't think you are at that point at all.

Babyducks asked a pertinent question. Are the finances worth more than the children's emotional health? Perhaps the best the two of you can do at the moment is meet their material needs. Emotionally, you are focused on your H and have little reserve and your H is too mentally ill to do that.

[formflier]

I'm glad you got a better nights sleep.

Perhaps that will help you work through this post.

My question is not about future appointments.  My question is about past appointments, specifically with the child psychologist.

Thank you for clarifying Ff, I have the session booked for the first week of children’s school. I am aware of different points of view, I’m open to explore them. 

Again...not future but past. 

What would help me (us as a group too I suspect) is to read an answer that goes something like this.

1.  Prior to my appointment with the child psychologist I thought about/evaluated my situation like abc.

2.  As a result of my appointment with the child psychologist I'm now thinking about/evaluating my situation like xyz.

Again... thumbs up for protecting your sleep!   

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

I'm glad you got a better nights sleep.

Perhaps that will help you work through this post.

My question is not about future appointments.  My question is about past appointments, specifically with the child psychologist.


Again...not future but past. 

What would help me (us as a group too I suspect) is to read an answer that goes something like this.

1.  Prior to my appointment with the child psychologist I thought about/evaluated my situation like abc.

2.  As a result of my appointment with the child psychologist I'm now thinking about/evaluating my situation like xyz.

Again... thumbs up for protecting your sleep!   

Best,

FF

1.  Prior to my appointment with the child psychologist I thought about my husband’s undiagnosed disorder as eccentric and odd bpd /I evaluated my situation like if I know the tool I would not trigger him and he will be ok, I thought validating and tools would enable me to have a happy and stable family life.

2.  As a result of my appointment with the child psychologist I'm now thinking about this is lifelong condition that has been exacerbated and unmanageable with me being fully invested and mediating his behaviour which is congruent with having a loved one with bipolar disorder /I am evaluating my situation like I need to detach and focus on saving myself and the children.

[Notwendy]

I think this is an important shift in thinking. The first part- that you would find a way to not trigger him and learn tools to live a happy stable life puts the responsibility on you. ( and some magical thinking as well, because there is no "tool" that fixes mental illness).

The second part:
1) this is your H's disorder- whatever the diagnosis is- BPD or Bipolar- both are your H's disorder.
2) this is lifelong- a long term mental disorder.
3) You can not fix this and it isn't your responsibility to fix it. PwBPD and Bipolar can learn to manage their disorder but they need to be motivated to work with a mental health professional. You can't do this for them. It's not your disorder, it's his.
4) your behavior- enabling and rescuing, emotional caretaking, is seen in family members of a disordered person, however, it's also been recognized as being dysfunctional- co-dependency and co-dependency has the same requirements for managment as well- someone must do their own work, often with professional or other support, to manage that aspect.

Shifting your focus off "fixing" your H to you and the children is a good step. But it sometimes needs support.  You have a support group to help you not feel alone in your situation, but I hope that you find a way to shift the focus off your H and on to you.