Potential Consequences for Not Following Order?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Well, I messed up pretty big this past weekend, and I am almost certain uBPDxw is trying to find some way to make sure I'm punished through the PC or the courts.

Just a quick update on D11...she stepped down from residential treatment of her eating disorder two weeks ago, and has been participating in the partial hospitalization program (PHP) since then.  They're doing it virtually right now, so she's home during this time whereas normally she would be spending the day there and home at night.  They say the first two weeks are typically the most turbulent due to adjusting to being back home and starting more of the deeper psychological work (residential treatment is focused primarily on medical stabilization), and we have definitely had some bumps in the road.

Unfortunately, during residential treatment D11 was dealing with some passive suicide ideation.  They made a safety plan with her before she came home, which we reviewed together with the therapist prior to her step-down date.   Her first week home went pretty well overall, but then I ended up triggering her pretty badly this past Saturday with a poor choice of words.  I later found a suicide note that I am sure she wrote while she very upset just after the event (I had checked on her multiple times and saw her writing at one point).  It was again passively worded, but obviously still a serious concern.

I knew she wrote it while in the middle of her rage from being triggered, and after she calmed down a bit the rest of the evening went really well.  I thought I was doing the right thing by following the safety plan established...I kept a close eye on her, checked in and discussed her safety with her that evening, and even ended up sleeping on her floor that night just in case (which she didn't protest).  She had a nurse visit the next morning at the treatment facility, and I shared my findings with them, but nothing was said about doing anything other than bringing her home.

I checked in with her treatment team first thing on Monday morning, and they felt the note was serious enough that I should still take D11 to the ER for an evaluation.  I made arrangements for S7's care and then we left for the ER.  D11 was surprisingly accepting of the decision, I'm guessing because she understood it was her treatment team that said she had to go, and that if I didn't drive her the ambulance was going to take her.  She did get pretty scared once we got to the ER because then she was placed in a behavioral unit which looked pretty institutional and had some other kids there with obvious mental health issues.  She was in high distress at that point, but I stayed with her and she ultimately calmed down.  They ended up discharging her that evening.

In the midst of all of this, I failed to contact uBPDxw before going to the hospital.  The psych NP at the eating disorder clinic called her on Monday morning to update her that they instructed me to take D11 to the ER for evaluation.  uBPDxw immediately reached out to the PC and complained that I had not contacted her myself, had not consulted her and included her in the decisions on care needed for D11.  Then later, when she realized I had found the note on Saturday afternoon, she was doubly enraged because I hadn't notified her of that on Saturday.  This kicked off an additional flurry of emails among the PC and attorneys.

I wasn't intentionally withholding information from her.  D11 is in my custody, and as soon as the team said to bring her in, that was my priority and main focus.  I had planned to call uBPDxw once we got checked in at the hospital to fill her in, but they showed us directly into the behavioral unit and immediately took all my belongings (including phone).  I would have been able to use my phone if I stepped out of the unit, but D11 was so distraught at that point it took hours before she was OK with me doing so.  I know the PC and uBPDxw are absolutely right that I should have called her immediately upon being instructed to take D11 to the ER.  I apologized to the PC (and to uBPDxw) in my response to the PC's email, I did not make any excuses, and I said I would do better.

As far as finding the note, I understand my error there, too.  I just didn't think about contacting uBPDxw to tell her.  Again, my focus was on D11.  I was scared for her, and I was following the safety plan that had been set up.  I was handling it, though I do recognize that in normal circumstances that don't involve a pwBPD it seems like a no-brainer that a call to the other parent would be made.  I'm sure I knew on some level that telling uBPDxw would pour gas on the fire, but I wasn't even consciously avoiding that.

There is definitely a strong and ongoing undercurrent of resentment from uBPDxw regarding overall involvement with D11's treatment/recovery and feeling like she's out of the loop.  That's because she's so triggering for D11!  D11 doesn't want to talk to her, didn't call her during any of her opportunities to use the phone during residential treatment and didn't want her to come to any of the family meal times.  The treatment team feels D11 is still too psychologically fragile to do any work on her relationship with uBPDxw.  So she's taking it out on me, and clearly thinks I should be providing regular reports of my own regarding what's going on, etc.  But she gets weekly treatment summaries from the team, and speaks with the therapist weekly as well.  The thing I'm having difficulty with there is identifying the line between what kind of privacy I can have since I'm working on things with D11 in family therapy through the ED clinic vs. an expectation that uBPDxw be included in the discussion.

At this point, I'm just anxious that uBPDxw is seeking some kind of punitive measure.  Or at the very least that I have burned some goodwill with the PC and family T through my error.  I know the family T was planning to speak with the PC, as well as speak with the therapist at the ED clinic.  I asked to work on communication in our next appt with the family T next week, but other than making sure I am better about notifying uBPDxw immediately if something like this happens again, I'm just not sure what else I can do differently.

mw

[mama-wolf]

Well, I messed up pretty big this past weekend, and I am almost certain uBPDxw is trying to find some way to make sure I'm punished through the PC or the courts.

Just a quick update on D11...she stepped down from residential treatment of her eating disorder two weeks ago, and has been participating in the partial hospitalization program (PHP) since then.  They're doing it virtually right now, so she's home during this time whereas normally she would be spending the day there and home at night.  They say the first two weeks are typically the most turbulent due to adjusting to being back home and starting more of the deeper psychological work (residential treatment is focused primarily on medical stabilization), and we have definitely had some bumps in the road.

Unfortunately, during residential treatment D11 was dealing with some passive suicide ideation.  They made a safety plan with her before she came home, which we reviewed together with the therapist prior to her step-down date.   Her first week home went pretty well overall, but then I ended up triggering her pretty badly this past Saturday with a poor choice of words.  I later found a suicide note that I am sure she wrote while she very upset just after the event (I had checked on her multiple times and saw her writing at one point).  It was again passively worded, but obviously still a serious concern.

I knew she wrote it while in the middle of her rage from being triggered, and after she calmed down a bit the rest of the evening went really well.  I thought I was doing the right thing by following the safety plan established...I kept a close eye on her, checked in and discussed her safety with her that evening, and even ended up sleeping on her floor that night just in case (which she didn't protest).  She had a nurse visit the next morning at the treatment facility, and I shared my findings with them, but nothing was said about doing anything other than bringing her home.

I checked in with her treatment team first thing on Monday morning, and they felt the note was serious enough that I should still take D11 to the ER for an evaluation.  I made arrangements for S7's care and then we left for the ER.  D11 was surprisingly accepting of the decision, I'm guessing because she understood it was her treatment team that said she had to go, and that if I didn't drive her the ambulance was going to take her.  She did get pretty scared once we got to the ER because then she was placed in a behavioral unit which looked pretty institutional and had some other kids there with obvious mental health issues.  She was in high distress at that point, but I stayed with her and she ultimately calmed down.  They ended up discharging her that evening.

In the midst of all of this, I failed to contact uBPDxw before going to the hospital.  The psych NP at the eating disorder clinic called her on Monday morning to update her that they instructed me to take D11 to the ER for evaluation.  uBPDxw immediately reached out to the PC and complained that I had not contacted her myself, had not consulted her and included her in the decisions on care needed for D11.  Then later, when she realized I had found the note on Saturday afternoon, she was doubly enraged because I hadn't notified her of that on Saturday.  This kicked off an additional flurry of emails among the PC and attorneys.

I wasn't intentionally withholding information from her.  D11 is in my custody, and as soon as the team said to bring her in, that was my priority and main focus.  I had planned to call uBPDxw once we got checked in at the hospital to fill her in, but they showed us directly into the behavioral unit and immediately took all my belongings (including phone).  I would have been able to use my phone if I stepped out of the unit, but D11 was so distraught at that point it took hours before she was OK with me doing so.  I know the PC and uBPDxw are absolutely right that I should have called her immediately upon being instructed to take D11 to the ER.  I apologized to the PC (and to uBPDxw) in my response to the PC's email, I did not make any excuses, and I said I would do better.

As far as finding the note, I understand my error there, too.  I just didn't think about contacting uBPDxw to tell her.  Again, my focus was on D11.  I was scared for her, and I was following the safety plan that had been set up.  I was handling it, though I do recognize that in normal circumstances that don't involve a pwBPD it seems like a no-brainer that a call to the other parent would be made.  I'm sure I knew on some level that telling uBPDxw would pour gas on the fire, but I wasn't even consciously avoiding that.

There is definitely a strong and ongoing undercurrent of resentment from uBPDxw regarding overall involvement with D11's treatment/recovery and feeling like she's out of the loop.  That's because she's so triggering for D11!  D11 doesn't want to talk to her, didn't call her during any of her opportunities to use the phone during residential treatment and didn't want her to come to any of the family meal times.  The treatment team feels D11 is still too psychologically fragile to do any work on her relationship with uBPDxw.  So she's taking it out on me, and clearly thinks I should be providing regular reports of my own regarding what's going on, etc.  But she gets weekly treatment summaries from the team, and speaks with the therapist weekly as well.  The thing I'm having difficulty with there is identifying the line between what kind of privacy I can have since I'm working on things with D11 in family therapy through the ED clinic vs. an expectation that uBPDxw be included in the discussion.

At this point, I'm just anxious that uBPDxw is seeking some kind of punitive measure.  Or at the very least that I have burned some goodwill with the PC and family T through my error.  I know the family T was planning to speak with the PC, as well as speak with the therapist at the ED clinic.  I asked to work on communication in our next appt with the family T next week, but other than making sure I am better about notifying uBPDxw immediately if something like this happens again, I'm just not sure what else I can do differently.

mw

[kells76]

Really good to hear from you again 

Lots for me to think about. Thanks for sharing what's been going on.

I'm just anxious that uBPDxw is seeking some kind of punitive measure.  Or at the very least that I have burned some goodwill with the PC and family T through my error.

This reminds me of what LnL mentioned before -- this sense that "mW has to do it 110% perfectly all the time, and always make the correct decision, or she gets punished" but "ubpdxW... well, we can't expect that much from her, so let's give her a pass, and be gentle with her". The double standard.

If I were able to be there at a meeting with you and the PC and/or family T, and they were acting punitively, I'd be yelling (or, at least, speaking strongly) at them that this is insane. Why would you ding mW for putting D11 FIRST, ABOVE uBPDxW? Why are we getting upset that mW didn't care for an ADULT first and instead cared for her CHILD first? There's something really upside-down about this.

...

OK, talking myself down.

So:

I checked in with her treatment team first thing on Monday morning, and they felt the note was serious enough that I should still take D11 to the ER for an evaluation.

I am guessing that the treatment team did not explicitly say "You must or should inform uBPDxW about this". Right? OK, so you followed the trxmt team's instructions to the letter, neither adding any steps nor removing any. Right?

She did get pretty scared once we got to the ER because then she was placed in a behavioral unit which looked pretty institutional and had some other kids there with obvious mental health issues.  She was in high distress at that point, but I stayed with her and she ultimately calmed down.  They ended up discharging her that evening.

Is there any kind of report from the ER that is going back to her trxmt team? Something describing series of events?

The psych NP at the eating disorder clinic called her on Monday morning to update her that they instructed me to take D11 to the ER for evaluation.  uBPDxw immediately reached out to the PC and complained that I had not contacted her myself, had not consulted her and included her in the decisions on care needed for D11.  Then later, when she realized I had found the note on Saturday afternoon, she was doubly enraged because I hadn't notified her of that on Saturday.

OK, so the trxmt team is doing their job of telling uBPDxW info. Which should have been taking the burden off of you, but here we are.

Another quick thought: has anybody noticed that the thing that uBPDxW is MOST upset about in this WHOLE scenario is... herself? Has nobody else had the insight of, huh, did she ever ask how D11 was doing?

This kicked off an additional flurry of emails among the PC and attorneys.

Is that where part of your concern is coming from -- the tone of the emails from PC?

The treatment team feels D11 is still too psychologically fragile to do any work on her relationship with uBPDxw.

This seems really, really important. I wonder if they would send a statement in writing about how if uBPDxW had been at the ER, it would have been detrimental to D11.

Or, would any professional have your back if you were like "OK, I am following our guidelines to tell uBPDxW about emergency medical incidents. But I do not give permission for her to come to the ER". You know?

Part of the problem seems to be WHAT uBPDxW may or may not do with the info that you "have to" give her. If the issue were "just" giving her info, and she could be trusted to be wise with it, that's a different story. The issue is deeper than "give her the info, problem solved". It's that she can't be trusted with it, and I suspect it's unpredictable what she would do if she knew which ER D11 were in.

I know the family T was planning to speak with the PC, as well as speak with the therapist at the ED clinic.

Before or after all this?

I asked to work on communication in our next appt with the family T next week

Maybe we can workshop some "I'm confused... help me understand... I'd like to see what I may have missed..." type conversations with you here, if that'd be helpful and if you're concerned about the FT's attitude towards you right now.

...

I have a feeling that getting a statement or analysis from the ED team about uBPDxW and D11's relationship could be really helpful. At least, that's my hope.

...

Well, I messed up pretty big this past weekend

See... speaking as someone who would probably feel the same way in your shoes... having done stuff regarding the kids where I have felt that way... right now I'm a third party, and I would just challenge that label that "you messed up".

Someone may want you to feel like you messed up. Who could it be? 

Yes, there were steps along the way where if you had known differently (phone confiscation), you -- if you could go back -- would learn from that and make different choices. That's what makes you a normal person.

You did the best you could with the information you had, and you prioritized D11.

This stuff is so hard, and it's "amazing" how pwBPD make it harder than it ever needs to be.

[zachira]

I am sorry you are going through so much with your daughter and your ex. You are allowed to make some mistakes when it comes to extenuating circumstances with regard to shared custody and shared medical decisions before the Court would consider some consequences. Also, children are allowed to have some of their therapy and treatment kept from parents when sharing with a parent or the parents might be harmful for the child. Your daughter is 11. When will she turn 12? In some states, 12 is old enough for the child to consent to their own therapy.

[ForeverDad]

Why would you ding mW for putting D11 FIRST, ABOVE uBPDxW? Why are we getting upset that mW didn't care for an ADULT first and instead cared for her CHILD first? There's something really upside-down about this.

Another quick thought: has anybody noticed that the thing that uBPDxW is MOST upset about in this WHOLE scenario is... herself? Has nobody else had the insight of, huh, did she ever ask how D11 was doing?

And... what could/would ex have done if she had been advised?  You made a judgment call about the note, she wrote it while she was upset and later appeared calmed down and relatively normal.  Judgment call, would ex have been better or would she have wanted to insert herself into the matter?  You took D to the ER as instructed by the professionals, clearly just to cover all the bases, would ex have been better or would she have wanted to insert herself into the matter?

You're learning.  The professionals at the hospital don't expect you to evaluate incidents and make decisions as they do, otherwise they would not be making periodic contact as often as they do.

Ex may very well stir the pot but the fact is you handled the immediate situation fairly well.  Be very aware and defend yourself well but odds are this will be yet another "tempest in the teapot".

I wonder if they would send a statement in writing about how if uBPDxW had been at the ER, it would have been detrimental to D11.

Or, would any professional have your back if you were like "OK, I am following our guidelines to tell uBPDxW about emergency medical incidents. But I do not give permission for her to come to the ER". You know?

Part of the problem seems to be WHAT uBPDxW may or may not do with the info that you "have to" give her. If the issue were "just" giving her info, and she could be trusted to be wise with it, that's a different story. The issue is deeper than "give her the info, problem solved". It's that she can't be trusted with it, and I suspect it's unpredictable what she would do if she knew which ER D11 were in.

You did the best you could with the information you had, and you prioritized D11.

Good perspectives to remember.

[worriedStepmom]

I was thinking about you yesterday and wondering how you were.

I am very glad that D11 has graduated from the inpatient care.  She is making some progress!

I don't think you did anything wrong.  I have a good relationship with my ex, and if I had been told to take D to the ER, I probably wouldn't have tried to tell him until we were there, because, like you, I would have been fully focused on helping our child.

I do think this is a good opportunity to get further clarity from all the professionals on what you are supposed to do in case of an emergency like this, and, equally important, what uBPDex is supposed to do with that information (e.g., can she show up at the ER?).

[kells76]

I do think this is a good opportunity to get further clarity from all the professionals on what you are supposed to do in case of an emergency like this, and, equally important, what uBPDex is supposed to do with that information (e.g., can she show up at the ER?).

That's where I'm leaning, too.

Something like:

"You know, for as much as we've talked about the parameters for uBPDxW and I communicating, this is the first time there's been an ER visit for one of the kids when they're with only one of us [I'm assuming?]. I really see that it's one thing to have the guidelines down on paper, and another thing when we're right in the middle of an incident. I'd love to work with you [PC and/or family T] on doing a debrief of how things went, getting your perspective, sharing what I learned, and really dialing in the specifics of what to do during an incident. It's so important to me that the kids' safety and health can stay the #1 priority."

Or something like that.

And then maybe ask some really specific, detailed questions. Doing that could do two things: one, show that you care about "getting it right", and two, shine light on the absurdity of uBPDxW's demands. "OK, so should I be required to call when we're getting in the car to go to the ER? Or at admission? Or right after admission? Or can I have the ER call uBPDxW? What would you recommend I do if the ER confiscates my phone -- like what happened the other day? Who should stay with the kids while I call? What about having a 'no more than 8 hours after ER visit' time limit for calling?..."

My hope would be that drilling down with questions like that could show both "hey, I want to really make sure I'm understanding... I want to know exactly how to do this that will follow our guidelines..." and then implicitly show how self centered and unrealistic uBPDxW's entitlement is. Oh, you're supposed to leave D11 unattended in a behavioral unit in the ER so you can go find a pay phone? Really?

[ForeverDad]

this is the first time there's been an ER visit for one of the kids when they're with only one of us [I'm assuming?].

My city has a Children's Hospital downtown while I live in an adjacent county.  I used to go to their medical records office about once a month (or just before a hearing, whichever applied) to ask for any new incidents with my son. Yes, she never notified me and the hospital didn't either.

Just once I got a call from an ER doctor.

Let me preface this by saying I had an ex who was looking for things to use against me, especially at that time during the divorce.

My ex dragged my son to the ER a number of times to make her "my son told me..." allegations.  At least once she even got forwarded to the regional child abuse center's floor.  Well, one time - and only one time - an ER doctor called me.  That was 02/24/2010.  I thanked her for calling, telling her that her call was the first call I'd ever received when he was still at the ER, usually I had to track down visits from the medical records.  She replied, "Oh no, we don't pay attention to the history, this is ER, we only deal with the immediate incident.  I called because I need to know, what drug did you give him?"

Back story, my ex had already dropped our son off at his elementary school but called saying son had told her I'd given him a white pill.  When I told her it was simply something commonly available to help him concentrate at school (a complaint I'd heard every year since kindergarten).  Well, that afternoon — he had been at school for hours — she checked him out early from school, took him downtown to the Children's ER reporting he had been acting crazy the night before and saying his brains were coming out.  (I had to request the records later to find that out.)

The doctor asked if I gave him any Benadryl, Tylenol or something else.  I mentioned the Cerecomp, about 3 tablets in all for the weekend, the recommended dosage is 3 tablets daily.  He was with me 6 overnights.  She already knew about this, asked if there was anything else and I said No.

I was appalled that the doctor didn't care that some visits were contrived so a parent could posture as concerned in a custody case.  I guess I don't know children's ER policies...

In this incident I didn't say anything, it was my son who innocently mentioned it and my ex ran with it.

No one will get mad at you if you go to whichever local hospitals and inquire for records of any past medical encounters there.  Bring the current order and confirm your relationship to the minor child.

[mama-wolf]

There are so many responses and I'm really to you all.  I'm going to try to catch up...

If I were able to be there at a meeting with you and the PC and/or family T, and they were acting punitively, I'd be yelling (or, at least, speaking strongly) at them that this is insane. Why would you ding mW for putting D11 FIRST, ABOVE uBPDxW? Why are we getting upset that mW didn't care for an ADULT first and instead cared for her CHILD first? There's something really upside-down about this.

Thank you kells76...it helps to hear you say this.  I think the reason I'm anxious about it is because I was already chastised a few months ago for not ensuring uBPDxw was copied on or conferenced in to all discussions with the providers when it came to stepping up D11's level of care.  She had agreed to seeking a higher level of care, but then me acknowledging a conversation with D11's T at the time (where she told me she had already reached out to the ED facility since she had previously worked there) set uBPDxw on a tear.  The PC sent very specific instructions via email--at least it was email and not a formal PC directive, but still very clear--about ensuring uBPDxw is fully involved in all conversations with the providers, etc.

That's where I really struggle.  On the one hand is the privacy issue where I should have a right to discuss things with the therapist confidentially as part of the family therapy.  But then where, when, and how do I integrate uBPDxw into that (and work through how triggering I know that will be for me)?

I am guessing that the treatment team did not explicitly say "You must or should inform uBPDxW about this". Right? OK, so you followed the trxmt team's instructions to the letter, neither adding any steps nor removing any. Right?

Right, but they're not going to get involved in the dynamics of my communication with uBPDxw.  They have been contacting her directly though, which is what I had requested from the beginning at the encouragement of folks here.  Still uBPDxw still has an expectation that some additional communication or inclusion happen on my end.

Is there any kind of report from the ER that is going back to her trxmt team? Something describing series of events?

I don't think there's a formal report...just the fact that the psych NP at the ED facility also works on the psych team at the hospital, so they were able to communicate directly at least.

Another quick thought: has anybody noticed that the thing that uBPDxW is MOST upset about in this WHOLE scenario is... herself? Has nobody else had the insight of, huh, did she ever ask how D11 was doing?

Well obviously I noticed, but I'm not confident that the other professionals have, or that it factors into their perspective on the basic facts of communication vs no communication.

Is that where part of your concern is coming from -- the tone of the emails from PC?

Actually, I haven't heard anything from him other than the original "reminder" on Monday about my obligations with the communication.  He has stayed in the background since then.  I know he works closely with the family T, and that the family T was going to follow up with him.  I do at least trust that she is running interference some on managing uBPDxw's blow-ups and keeping expectations realistic.

This seems really, really important. I wonder if they would send a statement in writing about how if uBPDxW had been at the ER, it would have been detrimental to D11.

I kinda doubt any of them are going to provide a statement unless ordered by the court.  And even then, I'm not sure how much they'll really weigh in.  What I probably can expect is them to confirm D11's psychological fragility, and how essential stability it is for her ongoing recovery.  The family T and PC could each testify to uBPDxw's volatility and problems with impulse control.  It would likely be up to my attorney at that point to prove that uBPDxw is so very triggering and cannot be the stable person or provide the stable environment she needs (in meal planning and prep, maintaining boundaries, providing emotional support, etc)...

Part of the problem seems to be WHAT uBPDxW may or may not do with the info that you "have to" give her.

Absolutely she can't be trusted with it.  She will act impulsively for one.  And otherwise, she is watching for any way to vilify me or question/challenge any decision I make.  All for the sole purpose of knowing that she had some kind of say in what happens. 

Someone may want you to feel like you messed up. Who could it be? 

That's a very good point.  I almost put a comment in my email back to the PC and family T (with uBPDxw copied of course) that no one on the message was harder on me than I am on myself.  But I realized it wasn't true, because uBPDxw takes that prize, and I knew I couldn't point that out without it being inflammatory.

When will she turn 12? In some states, 12 is old enough for the child to consent to their own therapy.

Thank you zachira...she'll be 12 early next year.  I'm not sure how that plays into her currently therapy though...

And... what could/would ex have done if she had been advised?  

At this point FD with the benefit of hindsight, I'm pretty sure she would have insisted that I take D11 to the ER immediately if I had notified her about the note on Saturday.  Even though I know now that this is the approach I should take moving forward, at the time I would have still tried to manage through the safety plan.  It would have blown up she would have felt dismissed (no matter how validating I might try to be in disagreeing with her) and she would probably have called 911.

As far as Monday morning's trip to the ER, I don't think she would have done anything differently.  She's just insulted that she wasn't contacted first.  She is doubly insulted because I made arrangements for someone else to take care of S7, which she would have pressed for me to let her do had we spoken.  She always insists she should be the first person asked about something like that.

I was thinking about you yesterday and wondering how you were.

Thank you for weighing in worriedStepmom...I will definitely be using this opportunity to get greater clarity, and drill down in to the specifics as kells76 suggests.

And then maybe ask some really specific, detailed questions. Doing that could do two things: one, show that you care about "getting it right", and two, shine light on the absurdity of uBPDxW's demands.

I think the really critical piece is going to be to separate out the two scenarios...

• First, the potential safety issue represented by the note on Saturday, and what the expectations are for 1) notifying uBPDxw of the issue and 2) managing agreement on what should be done in that moment in the best interests of the child (especially if we disagree, as we may be very likely to do depending on the circumstances).
• Second, simple notification to the other parent in the event of an emergency, and expectations at that point.  Obviously, this situation was one where I was advised to take her, and I had a little time--though limited mental and emotional bandwidth--to make calls, etc. before getting in the car.  In other situations, if I'm engaging with emergency services, or otherwise managing an emergency situation, what is the realistic expectation for notifying her?  And what is the expectation specifically regarding updates from me?

So that's where I am at the moment.  While also struggling with being massively triggered myself by D11 yesterday when she, in the midst of her own meltdown, screamed at me that I'm turning into uBPDxw.   Yesterday afternoon into the evening was pretty bad for me, and I'm only just now starting to pull out of it.

mw

[kells76]

If I could be allowed to "dream big" for a moment 

The ideal situation I picture for you guys is the following:

You and uBPDxW, sadly but truly, are still triggering to each other. All professionals would acknowledge this.

Asking either of you (in truth, just you, but let's say either) to shoulder the burden of communicating healthily directly with the other one is asking the two of you to switch to a type/tone/style of communication that isn't possible right now. Even at this point after the end of the marriage, you guys are each in your own way too "tender" to be able to communicate directly and keep the focus on the kids (again, I'm just saying "both of you", even though I know the source of many problems is uBPDxW's reactivity etc). It's kind of like asking a newborn baby to get up and walk. It's just too soon to have that expectation. OK, maybe years down the road you guys could do it, but it seems SO clear to me that it's not working NOW. So...

Ideally, there would be a neutral 3rd party (N3P) through whom ALL communication would go. Everything. S7 has a dentist appt? You text N3P exactly what you "would have" texted xW. N3P reviews it and either IMMEDIATELY sends it to xW or has you revise. xW has a response? She sends it to N3P. Same deal. Key would be the immediacy of this "clearinghouse" person. Always on call, always forwarding/managing messages.

I feel like there's this wish or belief coming from some of the professionals in your situation, maybe not all of them, that if they just "hammer harder" on "parents need to communicate healthily", then it will happen. Oh, someone dropped the ball accidentally? Remind everyone "to communicate better". xW blows up? Remind her "to communicate better". Things aren't working? More reminders will fix it!

I feel like the counter intuitive solution is to have the parents step back from communicating with each other for a bit. It's like -- your leg is broken? Well, run on it so it gets stronger! There's no sense of "sometimes you have to step back and heal before moving forward".

I know this is all wishful thinking at the moment. But I know you see how focusing on all this "can't the parents just communicate better" stuff is taking away from "is it actually better for the kids to make the parents communicate right now" question.

I know I'm also preaching to the choir here. I know you've gone through all this before. I wish I could come up with a persuasive way to guide the professionals to see that if Idea X isn't working, the solution isn't necessarily "let's do Idea X, but MORE" to fix it.

Maybe the group can help come up with an "experiment" or "proposal" to pitch to the professionals, with specific metrics (hey, SMART goals, thinking of you) and timelines of "Let's do an experiment for X weeks to see if the solution is that m-w communicates better, and let's have these metrics for seeing if that fixes anything".

[kells76]

The PC sent very specific instructions via email--at least it was email and not a formal PC directive, but still very clear--about ensuring uBPDxw is fully involved in all conversations with the providers, etc.

OK, now thoughts on real life, not my dream world...

Just to get down to brass tacks:

Is the requirement ONLY that you share the info in a "timely" manner?

Or is the requirement that you two AGREE?

Do you have sole decision making power for D11? Is there any kind of tie breaker status for anyone?

Is xW being "fully involved" the same as "having decision making ability"?

This all seems connected to this:

Absolutely she can't be trusted with it.  She will act impulsively for one.  And otherwise, she is watching for any way to vilify me or question/challenge any decision I make.  All for the sole purpose of knowing that she had some kind of say in what happens.

What kind of "say" does she legally have? I mean nitty gritty details here.

Is she perhaps trying to inflate her involvement and decision making capacity to more than it legally is -- what I mean is, if she "knows" but doesn't want to acknowledge that she's getting boxed out of D11's care legally, is she trying to "inflate" what she has left so she feels... IDK, better?

...

What I'm picturing is...

If it's true that xW at the end of the day does not have tiebreaker or equal input, and the two concerns about informing her are (1) her impulsivity, and (2) her badmouthing you...

What would it be like for you to "give her some rope" by following the rules to the letter? I.e., OK, she wants to "be in the loop"? Fine. You tell her everything at the exact right moment. But you don't agree to anything she then suggests. You don't do any of her demands. Is she upset? Yes. Is she kvetching about it to the professionals? Yes. And what will she complain about? "m-w is awful, she told me right when she took S7 to urgent care, but she wouldn't let them bleed him with leeches like I suggested". I mean... you get what I'm saying, right?

I do understand that the catch is with concern #1 -- she's impulsive. And D11 could be at risk if xW acts impulsively around her care. I don't know what to do with regards to that.

Lots of food for thought...

Hope you have some moments for self care today. Smell something nice, roll your shoulders, have a beer.

 

[livednlearned]

Your whole post summarizes the toxicity of BPD.

Somehow your daughter's crisis became all about BPDx.

This is about D11 and her health. You were in crisis mode and handled it impeccably.

No one prepared you for this, no one trained you for it, your mom is in poor health, there is a global pandemic, you have a full-time job and another child who needs you. There are multiple professionals telling you what to do (including some who seem to punt ...), and somehow you are supposed to manage BPDx and her needs even though the professionals haven't figured out how to do that.

I don't buy for a second that you did anything wrong.

The only thing that seems reasonable to say is, "Let's take a breath and be grateful for that safety plan. My priority was D11 and the safety plan was an excellent guide."

And maybe push for them to problem solve based on what worked this time around. "Does anyone want to modify it so that I can focus on D11 while someone gets a message to BPDx. I can't promise it will be different next time -- this thing moved fast and required my full attention."

[zachira]

Your daughter can discuss how she feels about her parents in therapy, and if what she says is negative and could be harmful to be shared with the parents, the parents will not have access to the records, whether the child is at least 12 or younger.

[mama-wolf]

Is the requirement ONLY that you share the info in a "timely" manner?

Or is the requirement that you two AGREE?

Do you have sole decision making power for D11? Is there any kind of tie breaker status for anyone?

We share legal custody, and the PC has pointedly reminded me that this means she has an equal say in D11's care.  This means not just notifying her but her having a chance to weigh in on any decisions.  And as far as I understand it, the tie breaker on decisions is actually the PC.

The thing is, I'm still at a loss as to how that would or should have played out over the weekend.  I understand I should have called uBPDxw upon finding the note.  And then what?  She escalates to him over the weekend if I disagree about taking D11 to the ER immediately?  And what's the expectation of his responsiveness?  I am sure these questions are going to end up playing out at some point.

And I understand that I should have notified uBPDxw as soon as we were headed to the ER.  But what in the world would she have had to say at that point?  I was following the direction of the treatment team.

Your whole post summarizes the toxicity of BPD.

Somehow your daughter's crisis became all about BPDx.

This is about D11 and her health. You were in crisis mode and handled it impeccably.

No one prepared you for this, no one trained you for it, your mom is in poor health, there is a global pandemic, you have a full-time job and another child who needs you. There are multiple professionals telling you what to do (including some who seem to punt ...), and somehow you are supposed to manage BPDx and her needs even though the professionals haven't figured out how to do that.

I don't buy for a second that you did anything wrong.

Thank you, LnL...it means a lot for you to say that.

And yet, here we go...I got the following note from the PC, sent to me, uBPDxw, the family T, and both of our attorneys:

All,

I am extremely concerned about D11.  As the PC (whose responsibility it is to make sure that the parents are exercising legal custody and communicating as they are ordered to do), I am also extremely concerned with how information was shared (or not shared) regarding D11's suicide letter and how the decisions were made regarding her hospitalization and discharge.  ED T from ED Facility wanted to talk with Family T, and I wanted to connect with Family T as soon as possible after she had a chance to speak with ED T.  ED T and Family T spoke this morning shortly after 10:00 a.m.  Family T and I connected as soon as we could thereafter and have spoken today. 

I calling a meeting with uBPDxw, mama-wolf, their attorneys (if they want their attorneys to participate), and Family T.  I need to say some things within my role as the PC, and I want to same them to everyone at the same time.  I am available September 2, 3, 4, and 15.  I want this meeting to occur with no delay, so please let me know all of offered dates that work for you.  It may be easiest if uBPDxw's L responds on uBPDxw's behalf with both of your availabilities, and mama-wolf's L responds on mama-wolf's behalf with both of your availabilities.

If we cannot find time to meet, then I will consider filing a Report and conducting the “meeting” with the Judge.  Please do not interpret this comment as a threat – I do not mean it as such.  However, I will get everyone together to discuss these issues one way or the other, as my concerns (and the issues) are that serious.  I hope we can find a time of the four dates offered that will work.

Thank you all for your prompt attention and response.

PC

What I'm really confused by is his reference to "how the decisions were made regarding her hospitalization and discharge."  WTF?  The attending psychiatrist spoke with D11 and with me, and she left to call uBPDxw knowing she is the other legal parent.  She came back and told me they were going to discharge D11.  I am at a loss as to what else I supposedly f*cked up.

The only thing I can think of is that uBPDxw disagreed with the decision of the attending psych to discharge D11, which by this point was early evening on Monday.  And in that case, what was supposed to happen?  D11 cools her heels in a psych unit overnight (and me right there with her) while someone gets hold of the PC to be the tie-breaker on a medical decision that had already been made?

So, here we are.  Fortunately, I had a session with my T this afternoon and she helped me focus a little on what I should do to prepare for the meeting with the PC:

1)  I'm supposed to work on articulating not only my though process over the weekend (and being comfortable doing so), but be able to express that I am very anxious and fearful for D11, and am generally burned out from everything going on.  Not an excuse...it's to highlight the fact that I'm not a robot (I have had previous feedback that I can come across cold since I tend to shut down emotionally), and that it's NOT a case where I didn't communicate because I didn't want to.
2)  Identify some things that I want to get out of this meeting.  This would be clarity on the expectations and scenarios, which is where drilling into some details as suggested by kells76 will be helpful.  I'm going to work on a list of questions

And that leads us to some questions I'm working on, and could use this group's help to expand...

• What constitutes an emergency or safety issue for which I should contact uBPDxw? (aside from the obvious answer of finding another note from D11)
• In the case of an emergency, what is the expectation for when I should communicate to uBPDxw that D11 is headed to the hospital? (aside from the scenario this Monday...more like we're in the middle of a crisis and EMS has been called, when am I supposed to divert my attention from D11 to call uBPDxw?)
• If a provider has spoken to both parents and decided not to admit D11 for further care, what is the expectation of me?
• At what level of decision-making is uBPDxw expected to be involved?  Does she decide the meal plan that I develop each week?  Should I call her for every potential deviation from the meal plan?  Should I video conference her in to check the portioning? (this question is a bit facetious and spiteful, but maybe someone here can help me develop one that gets the point across more tactfully)
• others...?

mw

[livednlearned]

I regret how cynical I have become about the family legal system  

As the PC (whose responsibility it is to make sure that the parents are exercising legal custody and communicating as they are ordered to do)

I need to say some things within my role as the PC, and I want to same them to everyone at the same time.

I'm reading between the lines here so take this for what it is. But I look at this as a PC who is concerned he is either at the limits of what he can do, or he is concerned his performance will come under scrutiny (especially if BPDx is threatening legal action that drags this into court).

His priority is professional. His priority is to enforce the order and it's hard to say, but it seems that D11's care is an abstraction in the context of his priority (unless there is missing information, which I doubt, about whether D11 received the proper care).

Even though he references Family T and ED T's meeting and the seriousness of the situation, he seems to be rapping knuckles so that everyone understands what his role means, what responsibility he has, where things go from here if he can't get people to follow the order (his responsibility). And that there are some (as yet) unspoken consequences if he cannot deliver this understanding. By unspoken consequences, I'm assuming he means legal.

I had a very different type of PC and different circumstances but like you, our trio did get to a point where PC indicated things were "very serious" and then next thing we knew, there was a motion for PC to withdraw from our case and I was sitting in a courtroom watching her metaphorically throw up her hands. The judge released her, followed her recommendation that n/BPDx was beyond what a PC could offer, whether her or anyone else (she trained them), and then just like that we were on our own.

My PC didn't waffle. Yours seems to come from a different school of thought.

It should be no news to the PC that your family is high conflict and in need of next level support. Why you haven't had the most clear parenting order with so many professionals involved is a big question mark, especially given how conscientiously you approach things.

Your T has good recommendations but this feels like it's getting legal and I would default to your L on the finer points of handling this. My L would likely do the talking and while I might get a slap on the wrist for a small infraction (as a concession), the overall goal would be to neutralize a possible legal action and agree to anything reasonable for the sake of appearances (and clarity, if needed).

Remember that BPDx is probably in a huge churn of abandonment and fear and ripping you a new one is how she will process that pain and anguish. The difference this time is that the PC sees a technicality that he's responsible for, and that concerns him.

I hope this makes sense.

• What constitutes an emergency or safety issue for which I should contact uBPDxw? (aside from the obvious answer of finding another note from D11)
• In the case of an emergency, what is the expectation for when I should communicate to uBPDxw that D11 is headed to the hospital? (aside from the scenario this Monday...more like we're in the middle of a crisis and EMS has been called, when am I supposed to divert my attention from D11 to call uBPDxw?)
• If a provider has spoken to both parents and decided not to admit D11 for further care, what is the expectation of me?
• At what level of decision-making is uBPDxw expected to be involved?  Does she decide the meal plan that I develop each week?  Should I call her for every potential deviation from the meal plan?  Should I video conference her in to check the portioning? (this question is a bit facetious and spiteful, but maybe someone here can help me develop one that gets the point across more tactfully)
• others...?

I would simplify this and have your L get the PC to clarify. You sure are expected to do lot of second-guessing for someone who is hired to provide guidance on this stuff.

OR

I would go in and offer solutions that you and L find palatable. This might be an opportunity to nail down the mother of all parenting orders. You can find some insanely detailed ones online that leave no rock unturned. Yours might focus on decisions specific to what D11 is dealing with and then give BPDx as much time as she wants to funnel all her agitation into controlling the document instead of you.

I don't know. I really hate to see how the PC is setting you up for a big chastise without providing you something you can genuinely work with. It's like everyone is invested into rehabilitating instead of delineating clear boundaries so people can move on and adjust.

[worriedStepmom]

It's like everyone is invested into rehabilitating instead of delineating clear boundaries so people can move on and adjust.

Yes.  This.

Attempting to rehabilitate ex has resulted in extreme mental health harm to D11, and this cannot continue.  The world cannot continue to revolve around what ex needs - it MUST focus on what is best for D11.

I agree with LnL that you need to be leaning on your lawyer more than your therapist right now.  You need to have legal decision making/tie-breaker status for D11, full stop.  If the therapists don't even want your ex to be around D11 at the moment, how on earth is it possible for her to provide valuable input into D11's treatment?

The PC may fuss at you in your meeting.  He may fuss at ex.  I'd try not to worry about that so much and see what needs to be done to have an emergency hearing to get sole or tie-breaking decision-making status, at least until D11's treatment team believes that D11 can be around ex.

[formflier]

I'm going to encourage you to resist the thinking that you made a "mistake".

I am going to encourage you to think about it this way "based on my experiences this past weekend, I would do abc different next time, because I believe it would have a better outcome for D11

Do everything possible to focus things back on D11.

Notifications of the ex is more of an admin thing.

If she wants notifications to be quicker or things different I would agree with her in the context of several things "Yes I agree notifying you and D11s team sooner would be better for D11 in the future.  I've had an appointment with the care team and we have updated procedures in place."  (something like that)

Instead of "mistake", you can say "In light of what we learned this weekend" instead of "because I made a mistake.."

 

Thanks for being on team D11.  I think she is in good hand!   

Best,

FF

[worriedStepmom]

Hey mama-wolf.  Any update?  I've been wondering how the meeting went between all of you and the PC.

[mama-wolf]

worriedStepmom, thank you for checking in.  I have come back to the board several times in the past week or so, but have allowed myself to get sidetracked before posting an actual update.

The meeting was very upsetting for me, which I guess I expected, but just not in the way that it was.

The PC was doing his job and stressed how communication is required and must be immediate when there is an issue.  I already got that message from before, so I was mostly just annoyed at having to to be beaten over the head with it publicly.

Then he started talking about how as PC he tends to stay at the "macro level," but given the situation it was looking like we needed to bring the "micro level" to the "macro level."  The way it was delivered suggested that all of a sudden uBPDxw was going to have a say in just about everything to micromanage me in my house, which obviously had me very uneasy.

The thing that he would not do is offer me any parameters around what his expectations look like.  I tried to ask some very clear questions with some example scenarios, and he brushed them aside and basically just said to do better.  It ended up settling on me being told to take a "golden rule" approach...whatever I would want to be contacted about, I should contact uBPDxw about.  The problem is, I won't really be allowed to follow that because what I might expect to be able to trust uBPDxw to handle on her own without calling me is not what uBPDxw will trust me to handle on my own without calling her.  So I'm still set up to fail.

Generally speaking, I am to continue with the exchange updates in OFW when we exchange custody of S7, and include an update regarding D11's progress as well.  And with anything that rises to the level of a medical concern or emergency like self harm, suicide ideation, etc. then I am to text uBPDxw (which again, I already got that).  But I'll still be distracted about getting it right when we're in that grey area between the general weekly updates and the glaringly obvious emergency situations.  Knowing that I should err on the side of "oversharing" does not help, because it will absolutely open me up to questioning, judging, and nitpicking from uBPDxw.

One thing that did come out of the discussion was that because of the way uBPDxw had presented and complained about the situation to him (and because he not bother to ask me), the PC was under a mistaken impression about uBPDxw not having had any say in D11's discharge from the ER behavioral unit.  I told him I was confused about what I was supposed to do if I knew the attending psych had spoken to both of us parents and decided to discharge.  I asked if I was supposed to call uBPDxw for permission to proceed--to which he said no.  He did at least apologize that he had the wrong understanding from uBPDxw, and he made sure I knew he now understands uBPDxw was in fact involved with the discharge decision after all.

So the PC got his message across.  And maybe that would have been the end of it, but then he invited the family T to weigh in.  What was so striking was her hammering on the severity of D11's condition and how dire things are likely to be--probably for years--with absolutely no acknowledgement of:

1)  The progress D11 has made and how well she is actually doing with the eating disorder itself (I guess somewhat understandable if, as ED therapist has told me, this hasn't been at least part of the focus of family T's communications with the ED facility)
2)  How much I have been working my ass off to enable that progress every single day, and actually making some kind of difference (a little hard to do I guess when lacking the above awareness, but still the only message here seemed to be that I can't do it)
Side note:  I know I can't do it alone and that I need help, which I have been getting.  Even though I may need more, and may need to still adjust things to take better care of myself, I took away a message that it will never be enough
3)  Any other risk factor to her ongoing treatment and recovery besides the strained dynamic between me and uBPDxw (also maybe somewhat understandable given the limited purpose of my public lashing)

The family T weighed in on how likely it is that D11 will self-harm (how she wouldn't be surprised if we called her that D11 has "sliced her leg open" or taken a bottle of pills), and how likely she is to have many other very serious problems.  She painted a very, very bleak picture, and put it all on the shoulders of us at the parents to do better with our communication and working together.  She made it all about D11 trying to exert control over a situation that uBPDxw and I are causing by our inability to do the work necessary to work better together.  Nothing about other (possibly bigger) contributing causes to the issues such as emotional abuse experienced from uBPDxw.

I get being direct and a "straight-shooter," but the family T was brutal.  And the message that I feel was delivered to the team on the call was that nothing I have done in this ordeal with D11 has mattered.  Nothing I am doing matters.  And nothing I do will matter.  Given the ongoing, daily traumatic stress I am under (my T's words, not mine), this is NOT something I need to hear right now.  On some level, I know it what I am doing does and will matter, but it was beyond demoralizing to sit in that meeting and hear that from her. 

Plus seeing uBPDxw's antics on the screen throughout...I just don't have the words.  Watching her flail around getting upset about something, throw her hands up with a "see? this is what I have been saying!" expression, and laughing on mute and giving a big thumbs-up to her attorney over some text message she sent...

The sole focus of family T on the difficulty of us working together felt completely invalidating and dismissive as far as the behavior that I have experienced from uBPDxw, and that kids have experienced.  I am basically being told in front of everyone to suck it up and get along with my abuser, with no assurance that uBPDxw's behavior will be any better.

And what's so "funny" is that I then got whiplash two hours later in my meeting with the ED therapist, who was sharing with me that D11 as progressing well enough for them to start talking about discharge to outpatient care in about 4-5 weeks.  The stark contrast left me reeling.

We did have a session with the family T the next day, and I struggled to make much use of the time I had with her in that session.  All I managed to do was convey (at least in part) how upset I was with how brutal she was in her messaging during the meeting.  I got pretty emotional, and still haven't managed to let her know just how shaken my trust and ability to work with her on an ongoing basis is.  She responded as I would expect...trying to address what she can to do still help and trying to help repair the situation, but there is a pretty deep wound there at this point.

And then uBPDxw informed me the next day that she had decided to put S7 in a daytime "camp" of sorts (during her custodial time and at her cost), to help him with his schoolwork and free her up to do her own work since she could not afford an in-home babysitter--which is what we had been doing for the past few months.  So, I get raked over the coals for not communicating and having a live discussion about a decision regarding the health/safety of one of our children, and the next day she informs me she signed our son up for a program that will unquestionably result in higher exposure for him to COVID-19?  Not just him...all of us, including my live-in mom who is still in chemo for lymphoma.  I called her out on this and notified the PC that I do not appreciate the double standard.

AND, less than a week after that I tried to open a discussion with uBPDxw about my concern regarding S7 being given melatonin daily to go to sleep at her house (something she has continued for years).  I only brought it up because he begged for it yet again the night before, and frequently asks for it saying he takes it at her house all the time.  He hasn't had it more than a couple times at my house in the past two years.  But uBPDxw's response is to shut me down with an "it's not habit forming" and she expects me to drop it.  Except, while it may not be physically addictive, there is clearly an emotional/behavioral habit that has in fact formed.  I notified the PC that I do not appreciate the double standard here either.

There hasn't really been a resolution to these latest two points, further eroding any confidence I have in actually having help with uBPDxw.  And I don't talk to the family T again for another 2.5 weeks, so I don't really anticipate any progress or change there either.  It's an exhausting mess.

mw

[formflier]

 


That exhausted me reading it, I can only imagine what it was like to actually do it.  Tough day...couple of days.

Big set of breathing exercises...in deep and blow all the way out.  I'm not trying to invalidate you...but give another perspective.

The golden rule thing is a "win" for you. 

Here is my take.  The "know" what they are dealing with..the dynamic.  So they huffed and puffed and "placated" (not the best word...but roll with it for now) your ex without actually doing anything.

Any "rules" would be more restrictive..binding on you...and they did ABSOLUTELY ZERO.

Why would they do that?

Well...if they believed you were remorseful, insightful and would reasonably do something better next time...that would seem to be a reasonable thing to do.

STOP HERE.  Read the bold a couple times. 

This is a compliment to you.  I get it you don't feel that way now.

The complicated/intertwined feelings you must have right now...I can't even start to undo that ball of twine...(no criticism there...please...I'm not criticizing.  I can't imagine doing better)

Please be kind to yourself.  You can and will do better.  We all fall short from time to time, especially when it's the first curve ball of that type to be pitched to us.

 

Best,

FF

[worriedStepmom]

As I understand it:
1) ex lied to the PC and said she wasn't included in discharge decision
2) PC was upset because you *should* have included ex in discharge decision, and if you didn't, then you haven't been listening
3) PC structured the meeting as if you were guilty of excluding ex and you got reamed
4) After the reaming out, PC found out ex lied

I suspect this would have gone a lot differently if PC had asked you directly what had been done regarding discharge.

What does your lawyer think?
Are you still working on a plan to get ex's decision-making taken away?

[mama-wolf]

Thank you for the supportive message, FF...

I suspect this would have gone a lot differently if PC had asked you directly what had been done regarding discharge.

What does your lawyer think?
Are you still working on a plan to get ex's decision-making taken away?

That's true as far as the discharge decision, but to be fair that wasn't the only purpose of the meeting.  I acknowledge there were two other sticking points that were still valid:

• I did not call uBPDxw on Saturday to notify her of the suicide note when I found it (which would have given her the live opportunity to push for hospitalization of D11, as is her right as the other legal parent)
• I did not call uBPDxw on Monday morning to notify her that I was headed to the ER with D11 per the treatment team's instructions (immediate notification of which is also her right as the other legal parent)

It's just that from my perspective those two were very much the result of the immediate trauma I was going through.  I'm not making excuses about them, and am genuinely sorry for not doing what I should have.  I just very much object to being characterized as intentionally withholding/blocking information there, because that wasn't it.

As for the discharge topic, it's very indicative of how uBPDxw will spin a story and her "reality" to others.  She did at least speak up in the meeting itself to confirm she was contacted by the attending psychiatrist and that she was aware of the decision to discharge.  It's just that she had conveniently portrayed it otherwise (either by omission or insinuation) such that the PC initially came down harder on me than he needed to.

I am definitely trying to get sole decision-making for D11.  My L actually asked me to send her a wish list after the meeting, so I sent her this list:

• D11 to have no visitation with uBPDxw unless and until her treatment team believes she is psychologically stable enough to start being around her again.  She has been characterized twice by the team as being too psychologically fragile for this right now.  If and when that stability happens, there is to be specific reunification therapy (by someone whose practice is focused on this) first--not just family T trying to broker some kind of reunion.  Visits remain brief until the treatment team determines recovery from the eating disorder has not suffered detrimental impact.  No overnight visits until D11 has her own room (uBPDxw's current living arrangements require S7 and D11 to share a room).
  Goal:  Promote stability of D11's recovery and minimize potential contributors to relapse.
• I have sole decision-making authority regarding D11 at least until such time as D11 is visiting uBPDxw on a regular basis (if that ever happens)
  Goal: Decisions about D11's care are based on an accurate understanding of her daily struggles and needs (given that uBPDxw has no interaction with D11, essentially does not know her, and cannot understand those struggles and needs), and reduce overall conflict in the family system
• D11 has occasional visits with her cousins, aunt and uncle (uBPDxw's brother) in which uBPDxw promises not to attend.  Aunt has already expressed openness to visits, but it needs to be very clear that uBPDxw cannot just show up.
  Goal:  Maintain and promote relationship with extended family in spite of strained parental relationship (and also provide some respite to me)
• uBPDxw has a reduction in custody of S7  (80-20 or maybe 70-30)
  NOTE:  I am guessing this is the least likely to happen, but I still have serious concerns about uBPDxw's impact on S7, especially given that she still medicates him nightly with melatonin to get him to sleep (an ongoing concern of mine since it's not needed at my house) and I'm still unclear on whether he actually sleeps in his own room at her house yet (he hasn't for the past two years).
  Goal:  Increase opportunity for sibling relationship with D11 and reduce potential for uBPDxw to have a similar detrimental impact on S7 to what she has had on D11.  Family T is aware of the sleeping issues, and she witnessed some very disturbing behavior from him during one session over the telehealth platform.
• uBPDxw brings S7 to me on the days that I would normally go to pick him up for custody exchange (she has already agreed to do this via OFW message)
  Goal:  Reduce logistical strain on me
• uBPDxw drops the financial dispute over in-home childcare during the pandemic, as this is separate from track-out care or before/after school care
  Goal:  Reduce distraction and frustration for me
• uBPDxw begins to pay child support (lower priority right now, but still on my list)
  Goal:  Support my strained finances

She said she thinks some of it is doable, and we're supposed to discuss further...

mw

[worriedStepmom]

I like your list a lot, and especially that you have your goals clearly outlined.

Do you think the family therapist is helping the situation?  My SD13 is about to start family therapy with her mom.  When I interviewed the therapist, she said that if the parent is unwilling or unable to make the changes the child needs, there's a point at which she will recommend discontinuing therapy.  I wonder whether your family T is ever willing to make that call.

[formflier]

I think that is a good list.  I think the "intent" was there in the first one, but I would focus my efforts there to clarify that

1.  D11s team thinks she is ready

and also

2.  Exs team thinks she is ready

That if D11s team thinks D11 is ready but Exs team does not...no reunification

That if D11 is not ready, but Exs team says she has done a 180 and is best parent ever...no reunification.

I would have follow up questions about the ability to place in a court order that Ex has had a "negative" (or more descriptive impact) on D11 and therefore...the following are in place for the benefit of D11 as well as to improve exs parenting.

separate thought.

Ask L if it is wise to ask for "one thing" and get it, or present a list that is prioritized and realize you will not get all of it.

I suspect it will be best for big list and not get all...but...L will hopefully have a vibe of how these things go.

Best,

FF

[kells76]

And forgive me if I've missed this, but I see above that both of you are the legal parents of the kids...

Does anyone have "tiebreaker" status?

[mama-wolf]

Does anyone have "tiebreaker" status?

You are correct...both legal parents, and unfortunately the only tie breaker right now is the PC...

[kells76]

That if D11s team thinks D11 is ready but Exs team does not...no reunification

That if D11 is not ready, but Exs team says she has done a 180 and is best parent ever...no reunification.

Good and reasonable sounding idea from FF.

...

both legal parents, and unfortunately the only tie breaker right now is the PC...

and PC has been more "wrist slapping" than "tie breaking" lately?

We share legal custody, and the PC has pointedly reminded me that this means she has an equal say in D11's care.  This means not just notifying her but her having a chance to weigh in on any decisions.  And as far as I understand it, the tie breaker on decisions is actually the PC.

Ahh... sorry I missed that from earlier.

I don't know if I have practical ideas for moving forward with this info, but I can say that if this is taken to its logical conclusion, it's absurd.

You, informing xW: I am taking D11 to the ER right now.

xW, being herself: I completely disagree and I say don't take her.

You, following the letter of the law: Well, I guess I'll just sit here and text the PC and wait for them to decide! Sure hope someone responds! After all, if we disagree, I can't break the tie!

I'd need to think more about solutions, but this is crazy. That isn't 50-50 or shared parenting or joint legal. That's xW having veto power and de facto sole decision making.

This cannot possibly be the "intended outcome", but sadly in your guys' high conflict family situation, that is exactly where things lead.

And I get that you get it. You're living it. So let me keep thinking, and let's have the board chime in on how to get out of this tangle.

Seems like "making sure m-w communicates everything" is seeing the trees but not the forest. Sure, you could communicate everything perfectly and on time, but we all know that isn't the real issue.

All I can think of is to "break the system" by following the letter of the law: OK, they want communication? It's everything, all the time. Everything gets communicated. You don't follow any of xW's demands, but you adhere to the "law" so strictly that it becomes clear that the problem isn't your communication level.

I get, too, the issue that it's how xW handles info that's the problem, and "breaking the system" by overcommunicating doesn't solve that.

This is so much for you. I'm really glad you're leaning on us. I hope we can come up with some paths forward. I think I'm on the same page with you and FF that pivoting towards leveraging your legal team could be a good move right now.

And let me say this... what you're doing for D11 and her ED matters.

 

[livednlearned]

Wow. What a meeting. With everything you have going on, that was a doozy of a pounding.

I acknowledge there were two other sticking points that were still valid:

• I did not call uBPDxw on Saturday to notify her of the suicide note when I found it (which would have given her the live opportunity to push for hospitalization of D11, as is her right as the other legal parent)
• I did not call uBPDxw on Monday morning to notify her that I was headed to the ER with D11 per the treatment team's instructions (immediate notification of which is also her right as the other legal parent)

You recognized this nearly straight away and I'm sorry you had to go through a public lashing on top of what you had probably already done to yourself.

I'm curious what Childress would say about all the cooks in your kitchen...whether this team is helping.

Do you feel the family T and PC are having a genuine impact on improving D11's mental health and well-being? I may be forgetting the order of things, but it seems like D11 started to get what she needed when the severity of her ED led to changes in parenting time, no?

I am definitely trying to get sole decision-making for D11

I don't understand why that recommendation isn't being made by the PC in your case. He seems in over his head. I guess that's the nuclear option. Maybe he is holding out some hope that a miracle is on the horizon because he certainly is not offering skills to help manage conflict.

It's strange to me, too, that family T emphasized the severity of D11's prognosis, and the PC gave you advice that a) hasn't worked in the past and b) would likely drive more conflict. And yet the two of them don't seem to see how incongruous that is.

Only thing I can imagine they were trying to do is to almost ... shock ..x  you and ex into grasping the severity in the hopes that they could generate a wake up call? As though that's what has been missing. Which, to your earlier point, suggests that they are overly focused on the conflict between you and xw, and aren't focusing as much on how xw's pathologic traits drive conflict (and trauma).

I've been lectured in court and it was baffling. It took me three tries to get the title to my car from n/BPDx and yet the judge sat and lectured me on how the DMV works. As though that's why I hadn't transferred the title ...

I may have mentioned this before, but my lawyer said the judge had to avoid the appearance of favoritism. Not that the judge liked me more, only that he did not want to taint our case with even a whiff of favoritism because that can be cause for overturning a ruling on appeal.

I don't know if that's happening in your case or not, or whether it comes down to two fried professionals who have no more tricks in their bag, or whether they're arriving to the Zoom meeting unprepared and bewildered and talking off the top of their frazzled heads...they seem to want you to be more skilled than they are at handling ex  

Sometimes I wonder if there is a gender bias here. n/BPDx was a big tall guy and had a menacing vibe so people treated him as dangerous. I only see this reflecting in retrospect but it does seem that, even though he was given ten bites of the apple in court, he was presumed to be the higher conflict person. Whereas you and your ex seem to be treated like you're equal parts the problem, and it makes me think they are underestimating her BPD almost out of a sense of a bias that maybe they aren't examining.

[formflier]

And let me say this... what you're doing for D11 and her ED matters.

 

Sometimes people can get "lost" or overly focused on details...and miss the big stuff.

I think most of what has been talked about here are "tactical" details (which do matter).  That being said, I think it's important to step back and remember that you have the "strategic" stuff right.

Leaning into ED in a big way...to provide support to D11.

Let me say DITTO to that matters bigtime and matters much more than the "good job" on this detail and "oops"...wish I coulda done that detail better.

You are pointing in the right direction.  Keep it up!

Best,

FF

[mama-wolf]

I really wanted to thank those of you who have taken the time to follow and respond to my thread.  I'm sorry it has taken me a bit to come back to this and follow up.  I found that the meeting with the PC really put me into a tailspin of feeling hopeless, worthless, and generally depressed.  Plus generally helping D11 through her treatment program here at home and coping with other stressors has kept me very tied up.

Do you think the family therapist is helping the situation?  My SD13 is about to start family therapy with her mom.  When I interviewed the therapist, she said that if the parent is unwilling or unable to make the changes the child needs, there's a point at which she will recommend discontinuing therapy.  I wonder whether your family T is ever willing to make that call.

This is a really good question, worriedStepmom, and one that my T actually asked the Family T (tangentially) when they connected not long after the meeting.  Because if she's not actually doing any good, then ethically she's obligated to refer us out to someone else, and the risk there of course is starting over, destabilizing the family system, and still not landing with someone who can make actual progress with someone like uBPDxw.  But the Family T actually is doing some good in the form of helping to contain uBPDxw's behavior and attempts to disrupt my life.  Her hands are pretty tied as far as being able to make much change to the relationship between D11 and uBPDxw, but she is able to weigh in on concerns related to S7, and is a central provider who can coordinate across multiple professionals involved in the case.  And she has a strong professional relationship with the PC, which I have found helpful since it keeps the PC from having to contact me about things when he otherwise might feel the need to collect information on his own to get a perspective on what's going on.

That if D11s team thinks D11 is ready but Exs team does not...no reunification

That if D11 is not ready, but Exs team says she has done a 180 and is best parent ever...no reunification.

FF, I like this a lot.  The potential hiccup I see is a reluctance for uBPDxw's team to actually raise a concerns about whether she can be the kind of parent D11 needs without risking her relapse with the ED.

and PC has been more "wrist slapping" than "tie breaking" lately?

Well, as far as I know, yes.  I know that uBPDxw has brought a couple things to him, and he has not contacted me because he (probably with the guidance of the Family T) has shut them down.

I don't know if I have practical ideas for moving forward with this info, but I can say that if this is taken to its logical conclusion, it's absurd.

You, informing xW: I am taking D11 to the ER right now.

xW, being herself: I completely disagree and I say don't take her.

You, following the letter of the law: Well, I guess I'll just sit here and text the PC and wait for them to decide! Sure hope someone responds! After all, if we disagree, I can't break the tie!

At the very least, I don't see this being the scenario.  If I think she needs emergency care (or if uBPDxw were to have custody and feel the same), then we take her for emergency care and the obligation is basically to inform the other parent immediately.  The other parent can say "no, you shouldn't seek emergency care" and maybe call the PC, but it's not like he's going to stop the custodial parent from seeking care if it seems necessary to the person who is there in the moment.

It's more a matter of, if there is any question whether emergency care is needed, then the other parent is contacted.  In that case, if I don't think it's necessary but uBPDxw does, then that's when she would 1) yell and scream and stomp to insist that I do what she demands (and tell me I'm a terrible parent of course), and then 2) contact the PC for a tie breaker to force me to take the action she thinks is needed.  It's entirely possible in that case that out of an abundance of caution he would force me to seek care, regardless of my assessment of the situation.

All I can think of is to "break the system" by following the letter of the law: OK, they want communication? It's everything, all the time. Everything gets communicated. You don't follow any of xW's demands, but you adhere to the "law" so strictly that it becomes clear that the problem isn't your communication level.

I get, too, the issue that it's how xW handles info that's the problem, and "breaking the system" by overcommunicating doesn't solve that.

There is a certain appeal to the "break the system" approach.  I almost went that nuclear when the topic of communication first came to a head, and I had every intention of making sure uBPDxw was right there in every conversation with any professional to hear exactly what I thought about her behaviors and their impact on D11 (and me).  I did exactly that in the grueling 4-hour admission when D11 went into residential treatment.  And uBPDxw did exactly what you would expect...interrupted at any point that she took exception to what I said, immediately argued her own point of view, tried to "correct" what I said or put her own spin on it.  It was very triggering for me.  I knew it provided some value for the professionals to see that, but also knew it would not be sustainable to do that in subsequent phone calls or meetings with them over the course of D11's treatment.

And let me say this... what you're doing for D11 and her ED matters.

Thank you kells76.  I really need to hear that.  Both when you first posted it, and again just now re-reading it.

Do you feel the family T and PC are having a genuine impact on improving D11's mental health and well-being? I may be forgetting the order of things, but it seems like D11 started to get what she needed when the severity of her ED led to changes in parenting time, no?

It's such a complicated question, LnL.  I don't think they're doing much to improve her mental health and well-being, but as I mentioned above I do think they are helping to prevent things from getting as bad as they could get.

And yes, I think D11 was getting exactly what she needed when I was able to get custody changed to seven nights a week with me and only visitation with uBPDxw during the days on Sundays.  The only down side of that one was that D11 started to spend her whole week dreading Sundays.  But she was still better off than she was before December, her overall anxiety had gotten better, her behavior towards me and her brother had gotten better, etc.  It's just with the social isolation and anxiety of a pandemic hitting in March, and then my mom getting sick in April...and probably watching the stress of those things start to affect  me...that the ED sunk its claws in and really took off.  Not conditions that I could really control, but definitely something uBPDxw has tried to spin and blame me for.

I don't understand why that recommendation isn't being made by the PC in your case. He seems in over his head. I guess that's the nuclear option. Maybe he is holding out some hope that a miracle is on the horizon because he certainly is not offering skills to help manage conflict.

I don't really know the process here as far as when/how the PC could even recommend that I have full custody.  It would probably require that we end up litigating the custody motion, in which case he would likely be asked by the judge.  But I don't think he can initiate that activity...or at least, maybe he can't do so without risking uBPDxw and her attorney trying to spin a story of favoritism towards me.  Which, as you mentioned would bring some significant risk to the case.

Only thing I can imagine they were trying to do is to almost ... shock ..x  you and ex into grasping the severity in the hopes that they could generate a wake up call? As though that's what has been missing. Which, to your earlier point, suggests that they are overly focused on the conflict between you and xw, and aren't focusing as much on how xw's pathologic traits drive conflict (and trauma).

And that's what's really so sh*tty about their approach--especially the Family T's.  I have found that a large part of my struggle over the past few weeks was how callous she was to do that.  I didn't mention before how she described in detail about a patient who had cut herself.  She was using that story to drive home her comment about how she wouldn't be surprised if we called and told her D11 did something similar.  The images that put in my head, after everything I had already been through with D11 through the deterioration of her condition and her struggles in treatment, and the 8 hours I spent with her in that behavioral unit at the ER...it has been pretty awful.  I have really struggled to overcome it on top of everything else that meeting stirred up, and am really having a hard time seeing how I can effectively work with the Family T moving forward.

But I have to...at least until I can get that custody motion settled.  But she has done some damage that I doubt she can repair, because it's highly unlikely I will be able to let my guard down very much with her anymore.  And certainly not in any way that would be conducive to her trying to get me and uBPDxw to be more cooperative with each other.

My L has advised that we hold the status quo for the moment because things are somewhat stabilizing for D11.  The treatment team is pretty firm on D11 not being up for interaction with uBPDxw anytime soon, and the custody order does provide that we will follow the recommendations of the Family T, who has made it clear she is following the recommendations of the treatment team.  And in the meantime, I'm pushing uBPDxw on the topic of healthy sleep habits for S7 (as in sleeping in his own room and not being drugged with melatonin every night he's with her).  She is going to have to improve something there or it's just going to strengthen my case for having more custody of him as well.  At a high level, I still think I'm on track for things to get better for both of my kids.  Maybe.

mw

[formflier]

  The potential hiccup I see is a reluctance for uBPDxw's team to actually raise a concerns about whether she can be the kind of parent D11 needs without risking her relapse with the ED.
 

I don't want to misunderstand this...

Can you expand on your concern.

My idea is for D11s team to be primary and for them to put in writing to uBPDxw and her team.

"For the benefit of moving D11s treatment forward we need uBPDxw to do a, b and c because we believe it will have a positive effect on her treatment.

We need uBPDxw to refrain from x, y and z because of the negative effect it has had on D11 and her eating disorder."

Or something like that.

Accountability and professional opinions.

Best,

FF