Why can’t i let myself be pleased my bpdH is improving? Part 2

[Diddle]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=346106.0

But if we remain solid in our conviction to never again reinforce the rage episodes, they will eventually disappear.

The key is NEVER AGAIN reinforcing them for raging.

It will be uncomfortable and unpleasant and unpredictable, but if you no longer are willing to tolerate raging, you can choose not to.

This in theory makes perfect sense to me, feeling strong enough to put it into practice is going to take some well found brain power though.

"Never reward bad behavior"

Pretty simple and it's hard to disagree with that.

BPDish stuff is more complex, because often what appears as a negative to us, is actually the "reward" they are looking for.

Kinda a they would rather have a bad reward than a good one or no reward.

So simple and very hard to disagree with, but this sounds exactly like parenting my three boys, and thats where I struggle. I don't want to be mothering my husband, i do want to try and remove the rage, but this doesn't seem like a relationship where I receive anything in return, and that makes me sad.
is it possible to create a calm marriage where the outbursts are significantly less, and my feelings are considered too, and I can openly discuss them without feeling like I could be rejecting my H for having my own view? Or are BPD people incapable of that?

Am I just going to be damage controlling forever? I'd love some honest views of marriages a few steps ahead of me.

[formflier]

Am I just going to be damage controlling forever? I'd love some honest views of marriages a few steps ahead of me.

So there was a parenting aspect to my marriage for a while, I think with BPDs ...some level of that is unavoidable.

The key is that you remember parenting is about letting people mature (and sometimes fail).

So if your "parenting style" is to save your "kid" from frustration, well..you know what result you will get.  i.e.  if you always tie their shoes...what happens when you are not around.

So...if you always "manage" their emotions and solve things for them...will they mature?

It's going to be hard to watch them struggle.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

So simple and very hard to disagree with, but this sounds exactly like parenting my three boys, and thats where I struggle. I don't want to be mothering my husband, i do want to try and remove the rage, but this doesn't seem like a relationship where I receive anything in return, and that makes me sad.
is it possible to create a calm marriage where the outbursts are significantly less, and my feelings are considered too, and I can openly discuss them without feeling like I could be rejecting my H for having my own view? Or are BPD people incapable of that?

Am I just going to be damage controlling forever? I'd love some honest views of marriages a few steps ahead of me.

A few years ago I was wondering some of the same things as you've mentioned. My husband and I had done a year of counseling and our communication was slightly improved. I was very disappointed at the glacial progress we had made and not too optimistic for the future. My friends thought I was on the way to getting a divorce.

I was very disheartened since I'd been previously married to a man who had an even more extreme version of BPD and NPD, and likely ASPD--it wasn't a pleasant marriage. When BPD traits started popping up in my current marriage, I felt as though I had been duped again.

When I first arrived here at BPDFamily, I was extremely angry and irritated that I'd have to do any more work on myself since I wasn't the problem, it was him! (Or so I thought at the time.)

People gently led me to the awareness that I was the one who was tolerating the "bad behavior" and to look at my part in participating in dysfunction.

I continued to be resistant to learning the tools, but when I started noticing how things got better when I engaged differently, and I realized how my "ordinary" communication could be seen as invalidating, I became more motivated to learn how to "speak BPD."

To me, it was like learning a foreign language. I'd always been skillful in communicating with others and I was shocked that it just didn't work with my husband, especially when he started becoming upset. In fact, things that I said to him, which could have been helpful to others, increased his anger and agitation, and the more I talked, the worse it got.

So I was quite mystified as to what was going wrong with my communication. Turns out, plenty! One of the biggest, and easiest things to corect, was that I was invalidating him. People with BPD have an insecure self image and it's very easy to invalidate them, even by asking questions that indicate interest in what they're saying. This lesson on how not to be invalidating was really helpful for me.

Nowadays we get along very well. I can observe when he begins to dysregulate and steer clear of making things worse. To answer your questions--Yes, you will be doing damage control, but over time, it won't take any work as you will have integrated those skills as a habit and it will come naturally. And those skills will be helpful in all your relationships.

Most likely you will be able to discuss your feelings, but you will be very closely observing how he responds and tailoring your communication in a way that he remains open and able to hear it. It won't be like in counseling where you can express yourself fully and completely without considering how it's going to be received. But it is possible to have a pwBPD hear and understand how you feel.

Many people with BPD have empathy for others. The problem in intimate relationship is when a partner starts expressing their feelings, the pwBPD feels under attack. Through new communication strategies, there's ways to get around this. It's not necessarily easy in the beginning, but over time, trust is established and communication becomes easier on both sides.

[RestlessWanderer]

I'm curious to understand how you have the power to not "start" an argument, yet apparently still argue every day.

Do you not have the power to decide if you will argue or not...regardless of "who started it"?

Best,

FF

You are correct FF. Which is where my learning to identify when I am starting to get triggered by what she says. I will feel my skin flush, my heart rate and breathing increase, my hands fidget. I then pay attention to that to keep myself from becoming upset and reactive. Sometimes I try to calmly deny or dispute, sometimes I calmly agree with what is being said in an effort to validate, sometimes I will try to calmly validate her emotions and pay no mind to her words. Any of those three will tend to inflame the situation regardless of how calm I am (sometimes my calm will be a trigger it's self). So in order to avoid participating in an argument, I will remain quiet and listen (all the while I am trying to listen to the voice in my head), or I will walk away if she starts to insult. But I have yet to master this and sometimes will start to JADE.
So, though I say we argue every day, this was a slight embellishment. But me not starting arguments is true. My point was that I never know what will be triggering and have altered my behavior to try to avoid arguments. While I have participated in arguments, I now try my best to avoid taking part in them as well.
As for not wanting to start what could be the biggest fight, I'm referring to poking the bear, or waking the dragon, by doing something that will surely cause deep pain and a fierce reaction: telling her I'm divorcing her. This is only part of why I haven't taken that step, but I can acknowledge that it is part. The other reasons why I haven't yet, I'm still working on identifying them.

Sorry to highjack this thread with my response

[RestlessWanderer]

I’m intrigued by what you said about learning to “speak BPD.”

Can you share some insight into this process?

I too have learned to identify when my uBPDw is starting to disregulate, and how to keep from causing an escalation (I haven’t perfected this, but I’m on the right track).

I’d like to learn to avoid the mistakes I make in conversations that contribute to disregulation, if possible. I’ve learned what escalates, and how to avoid it. But I need to work on “speaking BPD” to be able to communicate successfully without leading to a disregulation.

I understand that this is likely on a spectrum, but anything that I might be able to put into practice would be helpful.

Again, sorry to hijack the thread.

[formflier]

Imagine that BPD sounds a lot like English but is actually very different.

The "meaning" of the worlds convey "emotional" meaning, vice "rational" meaning.

Looking at it like a different language can help get your mind to a place where you are really paying attention to listening and perhaps more empathetic.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

"Speaking BPD" is a bit of a misnomer. What I mean is learning how the things I say might be perceived by someone with BPD and adjusting my language accordingly.

For example, I'm very analytical. I can enjoy debating others about anything. If I do that with my husband, he thinks I'm belittling him, or disparaging his viewpoint. For me, it's just a fun intellectual exercise. So now I know not to engage in that with him.

Another thing, which used to irritate me, but I now understand a bit better, is if I'm relaying information and tell him something he already knows, he thinks I'm acting as if he's stupid. How the heck do I know what he knows ahead of time? And lots of times he's wrong about his presupposition on something that's outside of his expertise. But perhaps I've told him something in the past that he doesn't remember correctly, but he thinks he knows what I'm going to say. So instead of making a big deal of it, or correcting him, I just let the moment pass if it's something inconsequential.

There's lots of other examples I could give if I had more time, but meanwhile, I'll post links to some great articles you can read here.
 
https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=206132

[start_again]

I'm going to encourage you to "embrace curiosity".

Also embrace "befuddlement"





I've used both of those feelings/thoughts to be "authentic".

Wife:  (insert crazy thing)

Me:  Oh my...I'm curious how you think that through?

Then when she defers  "You seem to have thought about this a great deal and it seems important to you.  So I don't understand the lack of explanation."    "Let me know when you want to talk more about  this."

I stay open, I don't suggest she is wrong...I do explicitly say I don't understand...

You can kinda get the vibe.

Oh..for the bolded part of the quote.  It's not about what you think (trust me)...it's about his thoughts.  Keep giving him chances to be explicit with them.

Best,

FF

FF thank you for - Also embrace "befuddlement"

[Diddle]

Sorry to highjack this thread with my response

Restless wanderer, we're all in this together, hijack away x

I've found that while I'm trying to navigate the correct way to communicate, without causing flare ups, I am barely communicating at all. I'm finding saying nothing works better than expected.

I'm also feeling seriously anxious about asking him anything at all, to the point where it is waking me up early in the morning. I need to start setting boundaries, and I need to get some life back. I've been invited to 3 different get togethers this week, and the thought of mentioning any of them to H make me feel sick and emotional. So I said no to them all.

I have been sitting with friends before, and he texts me non-stop, or calls and recounts a drama that he is having to deal with because I'm not there, or wants to know what I'm doing, even though he knows the answer. So I've started avoiding such events for his and my sanity.

Today I have realised that if I don't stay in touch with these friends, I am going to end up even more isolated. So I have taken the nerve wracking step of telling H that I want to go, if thats ok with him. He told me of course I should go, and that I shouldn't be worried about mentioning it to him. So watch this space - Monday night could be just what I need, or a total disaster.

[formflier]

FF thank you for - Also embrace "befuddlement"

Then move from befuddlement to curiosity while handing them responsibility for the answer.

"Oh goodness babe...I'm not getting it.  Can you connect the dots between a and b?  This seems important to you and I want to understand"

Then listen and give them plenty of space to struggle.  After a bit,  make sure to "hold the door open" to something healthier and more pleasant.

"Babe...sometimes when I'm still working out an idea, I need lots of time to think.  Want to table this discussion for now and maybe chat more Friday night (a few days away)?  Maybe we could break out the Uno cards for the rest of the evening."

You are not forcing the to do anything, after all you could go read by yourself for the rest of the evening or play Uno.  Either way is fine.  Most likely Friday night will come around and they won't want to "talk" anymore.  Yet they will likely have a "memory" that you were open to it..that you were on their side.

Wash rinse repeat and after a few months the "temperature" of the relationship is totally different.

Best,

FF

[start_again]

FF,
I am chuckling as I read this.  I like the curiosity part I don’t think I will say connect the dots I will be going into project management mode if I do and that is not good.  I need a softer way of say it.
Maybe - I am curios I am not understanding __________ can you say it another way?
Hold the door open and put on the breaks, let’s do something else.  I have done this in the past and if I am sincere it does change the temperature for sure.
It is good for me to think this trough and write it out, practice practice and more practice. 

TY - SA

[Cat Familiar]

Since pwBPD can become hyper focused upon the present moment and their accompanying emotions, it’s often counterproductive to try to come to agreement with them when they’re operating from emotion instead of logic.

I’ve avoided many an argument by saying I had to think something over and then talk later. Most often he’s not interested in discussing it later, saying that it wasn’t important anyway.

I’ll press ahead if it is important to me, but otherwise I’m happy to drop it.

[formflier]

  I like the curiosity part I don’t think I will say connect the dots I will be going into project management mode if I do and that is not good.  I need a softer way of say it.
 

When BPDish minds get emotional they tend to take big "leaps".

So they go from A to B (in their mind) and from our perspective it looks like A to  F.  The point of saying connect the dots is to break things down more so that they go from a to b (pause) b to c (pause) c to d (pause) d to e (pause) and finally e to f (pause).

Point being you are slowing them down or attempting to. 

It's also a way to confirm if they are being somewhat rational or if it's complete emotion.

If they can struggle and slow down...maybe hang with them.  If they can't and you are monster for even asking, then you know that you are 100% dealing with emotion...you can try to validate and detach while the fire burns itself out.

Best,

FF

[Diddle]

People gently led me to the awareness that I was the one who was tolerating the "bad behavior" and to look at my part in participating in dysfunction.

I continued to be resistant to learning the tools, but when I started noticing how things got better when I engaged differently, and I realized how my "ordinary" communication could be seen as invalidating, I became more motivated to learn how to "speak BPD."

To me, it was like learning a foreign language. I'd always been skillful in communicating with others and I was shocked that it just didn't work with my husband, especially when he started becoming upset. In fact, things that I said to him, which could have been helpful to others, increased his anger and agitation, and the more I talked, the worse it got.

Thank you for this, when I first joined the site months ago, I was stunned that the suggestion was to change my own behaviour, but I too have been "gently led to awareness" that this is for my benefit too. Life can be calmer together if I want it to. I definitely still feel as though I shouldn't have to, but as long as he's trying then I will too. Plus it is quite fascinating to see that wording my responses differently, can work. I feel more in control and less in fear. I can see that if there was a lot more of this calmness, my anxiety in the relationship could lessen.

So here's to a good week...maybe

[Diddle]

So it is 3 weeks since my husband was diagnosed, he has been calm and aware of his thoughts, and has taken himself away from me and the boys, whenever he has felt he's in a stressful situation. Which actually has meant we've barely seen him.

He's now on medication for depression and has stayed calm. He has also in the last week told me I don't know how many times that his doctor said that I (me) would feel like I was walking on eggshells. So he asked me if I was, and every time I have said yes he has said I don't need to worry about that he had things under control.

So I have been keeping quiet as much as I can and not saying anything that could trigger him, and he has asked me a few times a day if I am ok, which I have said I am. Again today he has asked me if I've been a bit distant because I'm worried he's going to explode. I said yes.

He has spent the last few days also being very huggy and following me around, watching me clean (random) and today for the 2nd weekend in a row bought me flowers. He says he's doing this because he feels so happy and wants to be near me (honestly it feels like lovebombing all over again)

I thanked him, was really polite and said how lovely the flowers were. He asked me twice more if I liked them, on the third time, I stupidly said that they're lovely but he doesn't need to feel like he needs to be over the top wooing me... This is where he cut me off and told me that me saying that had put him back In his progress and he was going to tell his doctor that I;d said it.

I told him that was really unfair, that I just didn't want him to think he needed to be that way to impress me or make me stay in the marriage (I told him previously if he didn't get help before xmas I couldn't keep trying in the marriage) that the main thing that will make things get better is him carrying on with the doctors advice and being aware of his moods, and learning to change his reactions.

So after walking on eggshells and finally letting my guard down, he blamed me anyway. Said I'd argued, and spoken to him in a bad tone, which I consciously avoided doing.
Silly me for having an opinion and trying to make things right.

I also explained to him that he has got to this stage of happiness with counselling and medication, I have nothing, and all I'd like to ask is that he appreciates this and doesn't expect too much from me. What always surprises me in this situation is that when it's me wanting validation he can't give it.

So oh wise ones, how could I have handled this differently?

Kept my mouth shut? not let him know how I felt after he told me I didn't need to walk on eggshells? Will I ever be allowed to express my opinion without it being seen as an attack on him. and why do they have the ability to make us feel like the bad ones in all this

[Cat Familiar]

It's unrealistic to expect perfection from oneself as far as handling communication issues with our BPD partners. To be expected to do so adds even more of a burden.

Holding in all those emotions and trying to filter the expression of your thoughts can be exhausting and once you let your filter down, words can come out in unfortunate ways. I know from experience. 

Though we can't always prevent these verbal booboos, we can learn to quickly clean up the mess on Aisle 4.

So he blamed you for saying that he didn't need to try so hard to woo you--and here you were telling him to relax...

It was unfair that he said this remark wiped out his progress. You took the bait and tried to explain. (This is my downfall too. I think if I can logically explain my intent, my husband will understand and the issue will be resolved. NOO! Though this strategy can work well with nons, it totally backfires with pwBPD, especially when they're starting to dysregulate.)

Have you read this workshop on not JADEing?

[formflier]

So oh wise ones, how could I have handled this differently?

So..once you realized he was trying to "BPD" you I would recommend NOT "judging" him (by saying he was being unfair), but instead expressing shock that a "miscommunication" has come between you.

Not that you did it or he "misheard" it...

"Oh babe...it doesn't appear you understand my intent, the way I intend you to understand it."  Can we try again?

perhaps
"Blah blah blah I'm going to tell my doctor on you.."

you "Ok, perhaps the doc will be curious about my intent"

But...these are just suggestions.  Focus less on "exactly" what I'm suggesting to say and focus more on where I'm trying to "drive the conversation".

Best,

FF

[formflier]

It was unfair that he said this remark wiped out his progress. You took the bait and tried to explain. (This is my downfall too. I think if I can logically explain my intent, my husband will understand and the issue will be resolved. NOO! Though this strategy can work well with nons, it totally backfires with pwBPD, especially when they're starting to dysregulate.)

There are a couple of "big picture" things to focus on first, rather than putting lots of effort into "I shoulda said this or if only I had.."

Notice..

Did he take responsibility for his "backslide"?  A hallmark of BPDish stuff is that they are not responsible for themselves.

So slow down your responses and looks for this "logic" or an attempt to "hand a problem away" (especially if it's their problem)

I'm not happy, so it's your fault.  

Now..perhaps there is some truth to what they see, that you in someway affected their happiness.  Don't get sucked into that.  We know...the world knows, we are each responsible for our own lives.

It's important FOR YOU TO KNOW THIS.  It is less likely important to try and convince them of this (let the therapist do their jobs there!)

And also...

Think about Cat Familiar's concept of "tossing out bait" for a fight or perhaps at least "opening the door" for one.

Focus first on recognizing these two things for what they are, we have plenty of time to figure out a response.

"Oh my, I have no words..." (is generally a good one, then switch it up some)


Best,

FF

[AskingWhy]

Late to this party, but after learning how to "speak BPD" then leads to the next question, "Do I really want to speak BPD?"  In many cases, this desire results from a codependency.

I know how to "speak" when my uBPD H rages and dysregulates, but I am getting tired of having the SET steps. I am truly getting sick of this.  As this forum is "just tolerating," that's what I am doing:  tolerating.

[RestlessWanderer]

Late to this party, but after learning how to "speak BPD" then leads to the next question, "Do I really want to speak BPD?"  In many cases, this desire results from a codependency.

I know how to "speak" when my uBPD H rages and dysregulates, but I am getting tired of having the SET steps. I am truly getting sick of this.  As this forum is "just tolerating," that's what I am doing:  tolerating.

Ditto

[Diddle]

Cat Familiar

It was unfair that he said this remark wiped out his progress. You took the bait and tried to explain. (This is my downfall too. I think if I can logically explain my intent, my husband will understand and the issue will be resolved. NOO! Though this strategy can work well with nons, it totally backfires with pwBPD, especially when they're starting to dysregulate.)

Have you read this workshop on not JADEing?

Definitely my downfall too, its so hard to imagine how explaining myself to make him feel better and understand more, can actually make it all worse.
I'll give this a look thank you.

Formflier

But...these are just suggestions.  Focus less on "exactly" what I'm suggesting to say and focus more on where I'm trying to "drive the conversation".

This is one I definitely need more practice with for sure. Perhaps by being less reactive and giving myself a minute.

Now..perhaps there is some truth to what they see, that you in someway affected their happiness.  Don't get sucked into that.  We know...the world knows, we are each responsible for our own lives.

It's important FOR YOU TO KNOW THIS.  It is less likely important to try and convince them of this

You have made some really good points and ideas, thank you. Lots to think about.

Since this incident there hasn't been another, which is great, and he starts therapy with a counsellor this week too so we'll see if this knocks is medicated happy flow.

[formflier]

  Perhaps by being less reactive and giving myself a minute.
 

Perhaps try actually saying this for the next few weeks.  See where it goes.  Don't continue it or stop it based on one or two tries...seriously a few weeks of focus on giving yourself (and announcing it) a minute.

"Oh babe..(maybe reach out and touch your pwBPD's arm while taking a deep breath)...let me take a minute to process what I've heard."

you don't want to be a robot (something I used to get accused of with some validity) by saying the exact same thing.

"Hey...I was distracted, let me focus for a minute on what you've said."

"Oh my...let me grab a quick drink and clear out some cobwebs so I can concentrate on this conversation."

you get the idea...

Best,

FF