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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: "I love you babes"... "I love you too"  (Read 510 times)
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« on: September 10, 2020, 03:09:21 AM »

Morning all,

Interesting turn of events:

I'm at local supermarket, I get a bunch of skype messages from dd10 saying "come and pick me up... NOW NOW NOW". I called W to establish whether or not they had had an argument or if it was for something else. W is upset, says things are not okay, says that dd10 found a message saying "I love you babes"... "I love you too" between W and her (not so) secret lover. dd10 was hysterical. My only comment to W was "You need to sort this, I'm going to go now" and hung up. I messaged dd10 back and said "Mummy needs to sort this out with you".

I get home to find a neighbour and hysterical dd10 in PJs and school shoes in the garden of the family home (300m away from W's new home). W and dd7 arrive minutes afterwards but dd10 was hysterical and told them to go away and they did. dd10 had climbed out the window of W's house. I had to pick up dd12 from a sports class so got dd10 into the car and we drove to pick her up. dd10 told dd12 in the car on the way home. Both dd10 and dd12 never want to go back to W's house (at the moment and I know emotions are hot).

Back home dd12 went to her room as per typical form and didn't want to see anyone. dd10 talked to me and I allowed her to speak openly as she seemingly replayed her 'life film' saying "that's a lie, that's a lie, that's a lie, that was a lie because xyz". She said she has suspected things for years, she finally went looking for evidence. She was particularly disgusted by the fact W had been sending the boyfriend pictures of her and our other children on a recent holiday. It was like all the pieces of the puzzle plopped into place in one foul swoop.

Both have opted to go to school today and for now both will be staying here. W has made no attempt to contact me and I suspect her and the boyfriend will be working out a way of getting out of it. dd10 especially isn't going to let this one go easily.

Must stay neutral... this is not my problem to solve for W, but I know it is my problem to help D's work through.

New-Life
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kells76
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« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2020, 08:08:38 AM »

Hi New-Life...

I'm sorry your D's are going through that. It's so important for kids to feel like they can rely on both their parents, and when one makes choices that show untrustworthiness, it damages the kids.

Excerpt
Must stay neutral... this is not my problem to solve for W, but I know it is my problem to help D's work through.

Am I remembering correctly that your dd12 has been adamantly against counseling?

I get not wanting to "push" the kids. My DH has been in similar positions, though on the other side, as it were.

That being said, you are uniquely positioned to make counseling happen for your kids. What are they gonna do if you "make" them go and "they don't want to"... escape to Mom's? Unlikely!

You are so right that you trying to stay neutral is good for your D's. I can't think of anything else I would have done than you -- say "Mom needs to sort that out with you" is the best move you can make, rather than explaining, justifying, minimizing, whatever.

And to continue to help you stay neutral in this chaos, the kids just need a counselor. Yes, talking about Mom's issues with Mom is better than talking about Mom's issues with you, in a sense... but sadly, because of who their mom is, it's going to be a frustrating brick wall. Having that neutral third party available that lets them feel what they feel without any of the Mom-style "not my fault, you should be happy for me" type stuff is super important.

Yeah, the kids might feel angry at you for a bit for "making them" go to counseling. I think you can handle it, and if they do show that anger, it means they feel safe with you to do so. You can even let them know they don't have to say anything... but they'll be going anyway.

I think that would be the #1 way for you to help your D's work through this problem, like you said.

...

Getting more tactical...

So dd12 has been refusing to go to Mom's, yes?

And on the one hand, you get it, though on the other hand, it's important to you that she spends time with Mom?

If it comes down to it, I wonder if you could tie together going to counseling with going/not going to Mom's? I don't have a picture all fleshed out, but something like: "My hands are tied; until we have a professional tell me otherwise, this is the time you have to spend with Mom and I will be driving you over there to do it. If a counselor meets with you, and me, and your sisters, and learns about our family, and gives me different advice, then I'll follow it. But if a counselor doesn't know what's going on, and I have no other advice, then this is what we're doing."

That is a very rough draft of the idea and I probably wouldn't say that verbatim to the kids. But you get what I'm getting at?

Hang in there... even though it might not seem like it, you have a lot of advantages right now.

Cheers;

kells76
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kells76
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« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2020, 08:16:54 AM »

And I just caught up on what Livednlearned posted on your other thread:

Excerpt
dd12 sure has a lot of power for a kid.

If you feel that neither mom nor you are in a position to compel her to do something (imagine if this was school) I don't see how a third-party professional can be avoided, New-Life. Most likely there will be someone, at some point.

It's not really about how things used to be or whether mom is ok with excursions or how many beds there are.

It pretty simply comes down to dd12 being back in a kid position so that cooler heads can guide her, like you. Right now she seems to be running things.

Yes, yes, yes.

The longer dd12 feels like she can, or has to, run things, the more damaging it is to her and harder it will be for you to parent, long term.

My SD14 has been in that "kid running the show" position a lot during her life. It is not good for kids. Take the wheel now before it gets harder. She will thank you later.
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« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2020, 10:31:42 AM »

W messaged me saying it was important she see dd10 and dd12 in the next few days. I asked both and dd12 said "I don't want to do that" and dd10 said "same". At this juncture I have just passed that message back to W in plain text. Both kids have devices she could contact them on and see if she gets a breakthrough. Personally I think it's too early and next week is reasonable. I have said to both of them that they need to have a conversation with Mum. dd10 fears she will just hear more lies and more deflection/minimisation in an attempt to suppress the problem.

Do you know if kids ever going to talk therapy together? I can see pro's and cons. dd10 is courageous and likes to talk. dd12 likes to correct things. I wonder if a joint session or two could break the ice of the idea of talking to a stranger about stuff.

New-Life 
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kells76
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« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2020, 10:41:32 AM »

Excerpt
Do you know if kids ever going to talk therapy together? I can see pro's and cons. dd10 is courageous and likes to talk. dd12 likes to correct things. I wonder if a joint session or two could break the ice of the idea of talking to a stranger about stuff.

Am I tracking with you, that you're wondering if -- for example -- sibling pairs can do therapy together in the same room?

Hmmm... probably depends on the goals, and what the therapist thinks would be helpful.

If a goal is that the kids get more comfortable with the T, what do you think of you being in there with them for the first few sessions? They wouldn't have to talk about Mom stuff with you there, if the goal is just to get to know the T. Play some board games -- that can actually be pretty revealing to a T about family dynamics.

My concern about sending the 2 kiddos in together for support, when the issue isn't a "between siblings" issue but a "between individual kid and Mom" issue, is that it could parentify one of your D's by sending the message "you need to be the one to step up and support your sibling in this new environment with this stranger... I'll be outside".

There can be a lot of "meta-messaging" in how we do things in our families, beyond just what we do.

That being said, I also get the idea of "whatever it takes" to get the kids into therapy.

So, what if you took a few of the ideas being tossed around here, and met with a child/family therapist on your own for the first visit? No kids, just you, and bring the ideas you and I have discussed about "how do I help my kids be comfortable in therapy with someone new". See what the T says; even ask him/her: "If you were in my shoes, with these family dynamics, and you were struggling with if/how to get the kids into T, what would you do and who would you pick to see?"

The T should have NO problem letting you know if he/she can think of a better T for your situation.

I can't encourage you enough to follow up on this.

Cheers;

kells76
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« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2020, 11:08:20 AM »

How do you feel about contacting two or three child Ts and see what the professionals say?
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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2020, 12:03:56 PM »

I can say that siblings doing Therapy together is possible my partner's daughters did Therapy together.  That said each individual situation needs to be evaluated case by case.

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« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2020, 01:20:05 PM »

This is why I asked in your other thread about how much exposure your daughters were getting to STBX's new love. My "spidey-sense" was saying that something is different at Mom's house that dd12 doesn't like.

Is this person in the house a lot? Is there physical affection being shown in front of the girls? dd10 put it together.

You probably need to be prepared for dd10 to confront you about reasons for the separation and how honest you were about it -- she may see you as complicit in secrets.
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« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2020, 03:20:55 PM »

At this juncture I have just passed that message back to W in plain text.

This could play like "make her feel the consequence of her actions" and "let the kids stand her down".

That's a risky place because five chess moves from now, you will be on the other side of that.

I know vindication is sweet. You got that. Your kids put wife on notice that its way too soon to bring the other guy around and that is going to put a significant crimp in her life. You can embrace this! But be careful not to overplay that and threaten the health of the co-parenting relationship. Once that breaks down, you and your girls will suffer.

There can be a lot of "meta-messaging" in how we do things in our families, beyond just what we do.

Take this to heart...

To put them in therapy and be successful with it, you will need mom's by in. Mom will most likely buy in right now if you position it as help in the transition (which see needs). If you go at it solo, she will think its a gang up (as it would be) and she work to shut it down.
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« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2020, 06:46:40 AM »

This is why I asked in your other thread about how much exposure your daughters were getting to STBX's new love. My "spidey-sense" was saying that something is different at Mom's house that dd12 doesn't like.

Is this person in the house a lot? Is there physical affection being shown in front of the girls? dd10 put it together.

You probably need to be prepared for dd10 to confront you about reasons for the separation and how honest you were about it -- she may see you as complicit in secrets.

dd12 has never been to STBX's house (other than a viewing before they moved in). I don't believe that the boyfriend has been to the house whilst D's have been there, he just appears at weird times and in the past W and the boyfriend have done thing with his kids and ours which were a bit out of place for a separated man and separated woman, which I know the kids picked up on.

As far as the children were concerned the separation occurred because Mummy said that Daddy was angry and abusive (which didn't make total sense to them based on their experience). This revelation seems to be making more sense than previous theories they had been offered by W. I have apologised for my involvement in the lie.

dd10 tried to leave the house last night to deliver a note to W. I stopped her and prevented her from leaving and suggested she hold the note (very very scathing) for a few days until she was less emotionally charged (Life skill). I said that maybe she doesn't change her mind about what she is going to put in the letter, but maybe she does or maybe she finds a better way of expressing herself. She was very angry about me getting in the way of her seeking vengeance. I asked her to trust my wisdom on this to which she said "I don't trust anyone, how can I when my own Mum has been lying to me for so long?"... and she's right, when I found out years back I was destroyed and still only trust my Mum and siblings (plus non-associated people)... what if it was my Mum who'd betrayed me in this way, who would i trust then?

New-Life
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livednlearned
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« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2020, 11:04:52 AM »

It's good that you taught her an important life skill, NL. Cool your jets before doing something you might later regret.

She was very angry about me getting in the way of her seeking vengeance. I asked her to trust my wisdom on this to which she said "I don't trust anyone, how can I when my own Mum has been lying to me for so long?"

This is a lesson learned for me and it took years and many, many mistakes. I can't tell you how many mistakes I made with this.

A counselor would guide you to focus on her feelings, not your wisdom.

In that moment, dd10 needs to have her fury validated. She doesn't trust anyone including herself. For there to be trust, a caring adult has to help her pay attention to how she feels without making it about them.

That's the heart of what happens to kids when there are BPD/codependent parents. We keep bringing things back to ourselves, back to what we think, what we remember, what makes sense to us.

Counselors are trained to help kids learn to do this.

It can take years for this skill to become second nature. There's a lot of important healing and fury directed at both parents. When they learn to work through it, our relationships strengthen and our kids learn to trust us again.

It isn't really about who is the bigger jerk, altho it feels that way when the relationship ends.

Kids are trying to figure out which parent can help them resolve these painful feelings and learn skills so there isn't the same kind of high conflict and drama triangles in their close relationships.
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