Do not know how to talk w BPD stepkids (new here...)

[BraveBPDWorld]

This is my first post. 
I got married to my wonderful SO 2 1/2 years ago, met him about 3 yo.  He has two kids, currently 25 and 21.  His ex exhibits all the traits of a DSM narcissist.  The kids both have a long history of BPD traits, going back to their teens.  They somewhat vary per kid, but they both do.  He has spend years dealing w it.  His main coping mechanism is to be calm and never confront them about their bad behavior.  I think he was hoping that when I came into the mix, I could point out their bad behavior, in an effort to get them to see and acknowledge their behavior, and stop.  I don't think that will work, and I don't see that as my role.  Fast forward - the older one had to live with us for 6 months last year.  It started out OK but quickly deteriorated.  She refused to do any chores. She promised to help and didn't.  She feigned illness to get attention*.  [*she has also had bona fide medical issues, which complicates things] Last year all she wanted for her bday was for me to make an elaborate meal for her and her bf, which took two days.  My bday was 3 weeks later and was ignored by both.   We told her when she moved in that this was a short term solution, as we intended to start a remodel.  She moved out in Jan with a giant tantrum directed to her dad.  She choose to move out the day of a big dinner party we had been planning for months.  She wanted him to drop everything to help her.  He said he would, after he was done w what he needed to do around the house.  She was not satisfied w that and, enraged, demanded that he do "just this one thing" (drop everything) for her.  He held his ground, but was really rattled. 
In the 9 months since, I've had minimal interaction - partly due to Covid.  I have talked to her on the phone, and I have also sent a couple texts.  She doesn't respond to texts and the phone call was about a problem she had which I had professional familiarity with, and could offer advice. 
Last weekend my husband said she repeated a request for a "family meeting" with me to "clear the air".  I have said this is a big mistake.  I view it as an opportunity for her to (1) rage against us for perceived slights; (2) try to pit us against each other; (3) try to elicit statements she can use against us / me of evidence of "abuse".  I base the latter on the fact that she once said her mother called her selfish and manipulative, and that this is "emotional abuse". 
Instead, I texted her and said (in short) I know the stepmom thing can be difficult, let's try to navigate through this with civility, and hopefully we can do something fun for the upcoming bdays / holidays despite Covid. 
What I got back was a molotov cocktail accusing me of bullying*, emotional abuse, and saying her dad was "complicit".  She is demanding a sit down or she will skip all family events.  *she made a statement at the dinner table.  I asked her where she got that information from.   She started crying and left the table.  We weren't arguing but I did challenge her on where she is getting her info from. 
I literally do not know where to go from here.  These are my husband's kids.  I want him to have as good a relationship as possible w them.  I, however, do not want to be their pinata and a lightening rod for their rage.  I don't want or need to have any relationship w them at all, or as minimal as possible to make it possible for him to have a relationship w them.  I recognize I'm being put in a position where something is being demanded of me (a sit down) which is designed to beat me up, and the threat is that if I don't agree, she will take it out on "complicit dad". 
I was thinking of reiterating that she and I discuss this like adults, with a counselor present.  I think she will go off the rails if it's just me, her and her dad. 
Is conceding anything a huge mistake? 
I don't know how to talk to people like this. 
 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Swimmy55]

Welcome Brave.
So sorry you are going through this . You are not alone.
I feel you are spot on by suggesting a counselor be present at future meetings between you all.  In my experience I did concede many times to my adult son, only to be shouted at," You're just going along just to shut me up!"  Which was true. 
  I know you are not interested in having a relationship with your step kids as they are adults and live out of the house currently.  However, you are going to have interactions with them no matter how limited ,and your husband will be interacting with them as his kids. They are a part of his life and a huge part of his heart.  Finding out more about BPD would help you .  Take a look around this forum.  Look at the suggested readings in the library here. Please keep us posted.

[BraveBPDWorld]

Thank you - I have read a lot about BPD online and in books before posting.  All of that information is very helpful, as are the message boards.   It *is* good to be assured that this behavior is out there, and, more importantly, that it's not "normal". 
I am still contemplating my response to her demand for a meeting and how to (and whether to) respond to the loaded terminology like "abuse", "complicit", "unsafe" and "bullying".  I feel like a response is necessary, if only to set boundaries and perimeters for future discussions.  In other words, I will not engage in discussions which are intended to be nothing more than a barrage of abuse and insults. 
In talking w my husband last night, he voiced sadness and regret for what his kids are, and that normal relationships are not possible - not even for him.   He isn't pushing me to engage w them.  However, I know that they are important to him in general and feel like I need to strike a balance between "trying" and not exposing myself to the inevitable drama, chaos, and emotional abuse.   I also floated the idea that he and I talk to a therapist to get a handle on what their behavior means and how to deal with it. 
 

[srivili]

Step children or not, issues are the same. I have been there with my own daughter where the demands are 'right now' and always on her own terms. It will be used as a venue to point the finger at you and never own any accountability for their behavior. They don't have any introspection. No meeting is better than a meeting. I would even advise against going to a counsellor unless they are well versed with the bpd/narcissist. The therapy session was used as a session to whiplash. Tread carefully and do not give in to her tantrums. You seem to be very wise from what you have written, much better than me. I go to individual therapy for myself to deal with her tantrums.
Take care

[livednlearned]

Hi BraveBPDWorld,

I'm a step mom with a BPD step daughter, too. She's 23 and lives outside the home (after spending summers and holidays with us throughout college). These are not easy relationships.

I feel like a response is necessary, if only to set boundaries and perimeters for future discussions.  In other words, I will not engage in discussions which are intended to be nothing more than a barrage of abuse and insults

I found some success with the question, "Help me understand your intention here, and what you would like from this."

Whenever possible, I try to ask a validating question that puts accountability back on her.

If she responds abusively, then a follow up with either, "Let's take a break from communicating by text about this until emotions have cooled" or "I'm going to take a break from communicating by text about this until emotions have cooled."

That way, you recognize her request (validation) while putting responsibility back on her (reflecting on what her actual intentions are). If she cannot do that, then you move to boundaries (I see you are not able to do this now, so I am going to _____).

If you tell her "I will not engage in discussions which are intended to be nothing more than a barrage of abuse and insults" she is likely to take some satisfaction from pushing your button and becoming emboldened to keep doing what she did to get that reaction.

My job, as I see it, is to limit the harmful impact SD23's disordered behaviors have on me and my marriage so that my relationship with her can be viable and supportive, even though there is no genuine intimacy nor authenticity likely.

I would not give her the family meeting/sit-down under the terms she set since it's a threat (and set up) that is intended to put you in a one-down position.

[Swimmy55]

LnL -Good food for thought- I never considered that about the sit down sessions with therapist.

[srivili]

Lnl,

Good morning! Thanks for your wisdom and helpful comments. I am wondering if we say "I will not engage in discussions which are intended to be nothing more than a barrage of abuse and insults" to hold the mirror against their behavior and then let them know that we will take a break until emotions cool down. Will this be considered ineffective communication as they will only focus only on what triggers us?
I ask, as I have done this and she has gone radio silence. My therapist wants me to wait for her to initiate the calls. I keep wondering 'what ifs'.  I am terrified of how that it will go and I do want to have a cordial relation as she is still my daughter. My husband is also worried if the break will become permanent and we will not be able to see our grandchildren. Appreciate your thoughts?
Thanks

[livednlearned]

I am wondering if we say "I will not engage in discussions which are intended to be nothing more than a barrage of abuse and insults" to hold the mirror against their behavior and then let them know that we will take a break until emotions cool down. Will this be considered ineffective communication as they will only focus only on what triggers us?

That has been my experience. If you wish to express how you feel, it's best to use "I statements" that cannot be argued with.

This is a great starter, "I will not engage in discussions"

But the rest of the sentence acknowledges who has the power in this relationship: (any comments from SD that are) "intended to be nothing more than a barrage of abuse and insults."

She knows you mean her. And she knows you are gritting your teeth in that comment. She got to you, and that's the payoff. Not only that, she gets to decide whether she does it again or not. She's up, you're down.

I have done this and she has gone radio silence

What happens when she engages with you after the radio silence? Does she behave as though nothing has happened?

My therapist wants me to wait for her to initiate the calls

I do this too. Did your T explain why this is a better approach for you?

I am terrified of how that it will go and I do want to have a cordial relation as she is still my daughter. My husband is also worried if the break will become permanent and we will not be able to see our grandchildren

Has she engaged in any type of estrangement with other family members? Does she depend on you and H for anything, and is there a significant other involved in helping her raise the kids?

With your stepdaughter, feelings = facts. That means she can have a feeling one day and then scan the most recent interactions for facts to match her feelings. For example, she's alone and feels intolerably bad. Something must have made her feel that way. The last person she interacted with was you, so you must be why she feels bad. She recognizes a moment when you pursed your lips and frowned. Now you're a bad person who made her feel this way and you need to be scolded and called out.

If it gets really bad, then she starts to perceive you and H as the bad guys. She cannot have you in her life anymore. In BPD pathology, people are good/white or bad/black. If she has a bad feeling, then you are split black. With BPD, the best we can do is to not make it worse. Someone prone to feelings = facts is going to be walking through a minefield in any given interaction. The odds of her taking a time out for emotions to cool are high.

That's probably the main reason to avoid overtly assigning blame to someone almost pathologically incapable of taking responsibility. She may be lobbing insults and whatnot, but pointing this out may feel like a supreme zinger to someone so extraordinarily hypersensitive to abandonment and rejection.

She only focuses on what you did, not what she is doing.

How often does she interact with either you or H?

[srivili]

That has been my experience. If you wish to express how you feel, it's best to use "I statements" that cannot be argued with.

This is a great starter, "I will not engage in discussions"

But the rest of the sentence acknowledges who has the power in this relationship: (any comments from SD that are) "intended to be nothing more than a barrage of abuse and insults."


She knows you mean her. And she knows you are gritting your teeth in that comment. She got to you, and that's the payoff. Not only that, she gets to decide whether she does it again or not. She's up, you're down.


What happens when she engages with you after the radio silence? Does she behave as though nothing has happened?
Yes, in the past she would act like nothing happened and I would go along with that.

I do this too. Did your T explain why this is a better approach for you?
I do not recall from the discussions if he explained why. Will ask in the next session.

Has she engaged in any type of estrangement with other family members? Does she depend on you and H for anything, and is there a significant other involved in helping her raise the kids?
She is estranged from her younger sister, who refuses to have any contact with her. This is where all the arguments started with me to engage and I refused to. I wanted them as adults to resolve their issues. She took this as me taking sides and not being on her side.
Yes, her husband is very supportive and a wonderful guy. We do baby sit the kids and during the last 6 months we kept the kids at home with us and paid the baby sitters to help them out as I still work fulltime.

With your stepdaughter, feelings = facts. That means she can have a feeling one day and then scan the most recent interactions for facts to match her feelings. For example, she's alone and feels intolerably bad. Something must have made her feel that way. The last person she interacted with was you, so you must be why she feels bad. She recognizes a moment when you pursed your lips and frowned. Now you're a bad person who made her feel this way and you need to be scolded and called out.

If it gets really bad, then she starts to perceive you and H as the bad guys. She cannot have you in her life anymore. In BPD pathology, people are good/white or bad/black. If she has a bad feeling, then you are split black. With BPD, the best we can do is to not make it worse. Someone prone to feelings = facts is going to be walking through a minefield in any given interaction. The odds of her taking a time out for emotions to cool are high.

That's probably the main reason to avoid overtly assigning blame to someone almost pathologically incapable of taking responsibility. She may be lobbing insults and whatnot, but pointing this out may feel like a supreme zinger to someone so extraordinarily hypersensitive to abandonment and rejection.

She only focuses on what you did, not what she is doing.

How often does she interact with either you or H?
She used to call me twice a day on her way to work and back. She is a high functioning Dr. Her husband is very supportive her and takes most of the brunt. I watch the kids everyday after school and on weekends. Have supported financially until now as she was in medical school and physically and emotionally. I feel like, I am drained and want her to be self supporting. She is in therapy for at least 3-4 years for depression and anxiety.