Wife's BPD Worsens At This Stage Of Life

[GTK]

Hello Everyone and thank you for accepting me into this forum. I really need to "talk" to people who have, or are, going through this with a spouse.

I should state from the get-go that my wife is one of those BPD sufferers who truly believes she is fine and that her emotional dys-regulation is caused by those around her - 99% her family (me and our daughters). In other words, she hasn't sought help in treatments, nor do I expect her to . . . .I mean, why? In her mind she is fine and things would be better if we (her family) just behaved and talked in the ways she wants.

The essence of my wife's BPB, I believe, isborne out of epic levels of low self esteem, and an intense NEED for her to verbally destroy just about everyone our family comes in contact with. When this is done to ancillary people that our family really doesn't have much to do with, it's really not a big issue.

Now that our daughters are young adults and finding significant others (my oldest daughter is engaged to be married) its becoming more of an issue as my wife now goes after our daughter's boyfriend's/fiancee's families. She makes up scenarios in her head and will verbally attack these young men's families to our daughters and my daughter's find themselves in a position of having to defend them (because they know the reality). Of course, with BPD, my wife sees this as the daughter "siding with the other side" and being disrespectful to her. And then the attacks intensify.

She likes to use money as her final "club" . . case in point, we are paying for our daughter's wedding and she'll use that as reason why she can say the most horrible things and how our daughter's must, "happily", agree with her and everything she says.

There's genetics here because my mother-in-law did the exact same thing regarding my family as we first married years ago. Crazy thing though, my wife recognized that this was unacceptable behavior(back then) from her mother and (joking here . . although she said it) gave me permission to push her in front of a train if she ever started acting like her mother!

She's been acting like her mother for quite a few years now, sadly.

Life gets tougher everyday. I'd say her average mood is being angry/upset. Each new day is a day for her to find something wrong with something and/or someone and a planned activity is to call me at my job as I work to support her and our family to complain with the obvious expectation that I somehow "fix it" while I know, by now, that NOTHING I can do will fix it. What she really wants to do is complain, express seething anger and affix blame to a family member. If she is "going after" a family member (me - one of our daughters)she expects the others to join in and pile on. If she perceives someone is defending/supporting that day's/week's/month's target . . .she then goes after that person as well.

One of her favorite tactics is to drop out of a planned activity if she decides to attack either me or our daughters. When she was raging at our middle daughter in March (before we knew the extent of what COVI-19 would do) she announced she would not attend her college graduation . . . an event to celebrate four years of hard work on our daughter's part. I understand . . that a way a person like this dishes out "punishment"  . . . they decide not to attend important events/functions. The fantasy she constructs in her mind must be (because she verbally says part of it out loud) others will note her absence and we'll then have to explain it. The fantasy part is in her imaginings, that we'll then explain her absence to others discussing ALL the ways we've been horrible to her, making her life hell, and that these other folks will tell us how horrible we are and how we have to try harder to make her happy. I want to believe there's some small piece of her brain that realizes that boycotting your daughter's college graduation and then me (or my daughters) explaining it somewhat realistically will only make that other person say to themselves "What the HELL is wrong with that mother that she see this as reasonable behavior?"

I want to say, to date, she has not missed any events. There always some form of reconciliation (even minor) and she attends. Going through with this type of insane behavior is NOT unheard of on her side however. Her grandparents on her mother's side did not attend their daughter's (my wife's mother's) wedding because she married a Polish man (my wife's father). They decided their daughters could only marry men of British Isles descent (including Ireland).

I'm sad and frightened because we're eight months away from our oldest daughter's wedding and will she'll complain to me that our daughter is reluctant to include her in planning any aspect, but when she's included a WWIII level fight will break out because my wife, in the planning session, will take a verbal swipe at her fiancee's family.

There's more, so much more, but I'll stop here. I'd truly appreciate any comments of support or coping strategies. Thank you.

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[DS2020]

Sorry to hear about your struggles GTK. Sounds all too familiar. I know with my wife whenever she had one of these angry tirades, she expected, even demanded that I would agree with her POV. I made a decision early on that regardless of her expectations, I would give my unvarnished opinion on the issue regardless of the consequences. If I thought her anger was justified, I would say so. If as was more often the case I thought her anger was unjustified or greatly out of proportion, I would say so. It certainly did not make the immediate situation better, but it did allow me to keep my self respect and earn the respect of my kids. That pays dividends down the road.

[Carruthers]

I'm really sorry you're having such a conflicted time. Families/in-laws do seem to be very triggering for BPD - I guess the feeling of someone else having control over someone that was "a part of them" activates the loyalty/taking sides. I had all this when I got married, ironically from my family who don't have BPD but you can imagine how bad it was for my husband who does, and how it is still an issue 14 years later...

I've never known whether it's better to be honest, with all the problems that brings, or not, which doesn't feel like a great basis for a relationship.

[GTK]

Thanks for your responses DS2020 and Carruthers. I try, somewhat, to be honest with my opinions when she's on DESTROY mission on other people, especially when its on people I really don't care about . . . meaning we're not really going to have much, if any interaction with. Always finishing with something like, "but you know what, hon, these folks really don't matter to us, so why get so worked up?" I figure offering her kernels of honesty, logic, reasonableness, and proper perspective can help her hold on to an ability to to deal with other human beings, in the very least, in a civil manner.

When it comes to our children, it's a different situation. I'd like to think that I'm enough of an emotionally mature man to call my children out if they have done wrong. I've always done so since they were small children to even now as they are in their 20's. My "call outs" are done with love and the respect my children deserve as human beings. I'm looking to produce a teachable moment with my daughters in the hope they continue to develop into the best people they can be. Verbally torching someone to ashes doesn't accomplish that. That's my wife's technique, and she even uses on her children. So I'm very prone to defend my girls when my wife is going "bat sh*t" on them, which, very often gets the flame thrower turned on me . . . pretty much always ending with a threat of divorce, simply because I defended them.

I'm wondering if you all see it like I do, that is, after you wipe away all the mess of the unjustified anger and the "over-the-top" threats designed to show "she's SERIOUS this time", if you see just how desperately these people NEED us, their family members, and how utterly lost they'd be without us. And yet, they seemingly CHOOSE to engage in behaviors that, in "normal" society literally drives away the people who want to be close? It's just mind -boggling!

[Carruthers]

I know.  The whole pushing away so that you can prove you really do love them thing is so hard to keep on top of.  Sometimes I want to say, well go on then. But I know that being challenged like that would make my OH's world fall apart, because in that moment, he genuinely feels that he is thinking of leaving or whatever it is. It's really tough. But it's great you are making a different model for your kids, so they can do things differently.

[GTK]

We have different levels of the divorce threat. 80% I just kinda reply "Really . . .divorce? Over this?"  Case in point, she sent me to go get underwear for our son. I got the wrong kind. Normal person reaction "Hey, next time you go by there, bring these back and get the right kind, ok?"

My wife  - BPD sufferer reaction " You NEVER f*****g listen to me! Why do I even bother. I should really just divorce you!"

THAT gets a "Really? Divorce? Over underwear?"

20% of the time she digs into her deep systemic imaginings and threatens divorce. In those times I tell her that she's always free to file. However I would never leave you over   _ _ _ _ _ (fill in the blank over whatever made up issue it is -could be that I dared to disagree with her on something), but you are always free to file"

[Stolen]

GTK,

So much of what you say brings the memories flooding back.  The ever-changing list of who was bad, who was hated, who had wronged her in the most despicable way...  Everyday I would try to memorize the list!    And generational?  Yes Yes and Yes. Whether triangulation of something else, whoever was not in the room was fair game.  And they (3 generations I experienced) were relentless at this. 

You say "There's genetics here because my mother-in-law did the exact same thing regarding my family as we first married years ago. Crazy thing though, my wife recognized that this was unacceptable behavior(back then) from her mother and (joking here . . although she said it) gave me permission to push her in front of a train if she ever started acting like her mother!"


Damn - I could echo this almost word for word, except the proper punishment as expressed by my ex was "just take me out in the backyard and shoot me".   No mention of trains...     

And then she turned into an even worse version.

God Bless you - I lost my daughters (also 20's now) in the process,  you are doing much better.

[GTK]

Stolen - yes . . guess you could say I was lucky. To my mind, as your kids turn into teenagers and get exposed to more and more "normal" things . . .normal families . . .normal moms and normal dads,  they also learn what is NOT normal. Reasonable intelligence will have a young person quickly identify what is NOT normal and by 10-11-12 my daughters knew their mom did NOT behave normally when faced with ANY adversity . . .even a disagreement.

They got the feeling that it wasn't normal, not right, to talk sh*t (REALLY bad sh*t) about another family, or one of their friends, if they came up over dinner.  The question often asked to me when they were younger if I was driving them someplace and mom wasn't around was "Dad, isn't ok that Susie also  . . . .1) made the team 2) got an "A", 3) got an award at a banquet" By this stage we all knew, regarding mom anyway that the answer was NO, there's no room on this planet for anyone else other than our family, for everyone else to do well, or have a good outcome.

According to mom, EVERYONE else sucks and are pieces of poo.

So in contrast, my daughters knew I represented sanity and normalcy in their lives. I represented a world-view that gave them a model to go out into the world and have healthy relationships with others . . even romantic one.
Outside of causing them brain damage, my wife couldn't prevent our daughters from seeing the reality of our family dynamic and how my wife represented an extremely bad way to approach life and relationships. And for a BPD person, they know, deep inside, that this is the case. For all of us on this board seeking help and community we know the OBVIOUS plain answer for anyone wanting to nurture loving relationships, especially with the people who they should want to keep closest to them  . . .family . . .is to reflect being a loving, accepting, rational and reasonable person . . . as best you can. All of us here are absolutely dumbfounded that our BPD person actually seem to take the direct opposite approach.

As my daughter's got into their late teens, and they heard the threats of divorce that came from her pretty frequently, they'd tell me, "Dad . . .do it. Let the divorce happen" I'd say back to them "Girls, I can't take the chance of losing you. Courts are stacked against dads and men."  They'd say "Won't the courts take into consideration OUR words, that we think mom isn't mentally healthy and we'd want to live with you?" And I'd say "I can't take that chance."

So we made it through and they went of to college and to jobs living on their own as functioning adults and I'm still married. This planning a wedding is now bringing out the worst of my wife's BPD.

[DS2020]

I can certainly relate GTK and it sounds like you have been navigating this storm very well for many years. My wife too would find many enemies. It seemed she always had a need to have someone to be angry at. If it wasn't me or the kids, it would be her mother, or the neighbor, or a contractor, or her boss. It was never ending. I found myself constantly needing to counter balance that negativity and anger. I am surprised your wife does not appear to have softened over the years. It sounds like you have done a great job modeling the right behaviors for your children. I feel like I have done the same for my kids as well. Every once in a while I hear a little something from my daughter that makes me feel maybe it is her mom's influence. For instance, we were driving home yesterday and my daughter commented on how annoying the neighbor's daughters were. Now these are girls in their 20's, my daughter is 16, and they don't have any interactions. I asked her why they were annoying, and she said they just were. I asked her what they did to be annoying, and she said they just were. I said something along the lines of "that doesn't seem very nice" and I let it drop at that, but now that you are mentioning it, maybe I will go back to her and try to make it a teachable moment. Something along the lines of liking and respecting people, unless they behave in a way that changes that perception.

I'm assuming that your wife must have other desirable attributes for you to still want to stick it out with her now that the kids have grown, and she is still showing no interest in counseling and no self-reflection.

[once removed]

oh, what a difficult place to be 

the short version is that theres probably more behind the actions than what they immediately suggest.

it could be as simple as her having difficulty watching her children making the transition to embarking on their life with another. i say "simple"; its something we all struggle with, and a person with bpd traits will generally struggle more, and they will have difficulty identifying or communicating what is "really" at hand.

and it could be bigger than that. she may feel uncomfortable, insecure, bored, any number of things, in the marriage, simultaneously, almost like a midlife crisis sort of thing. if she has low self esteem, it could be, not exactly jealousy per se, but seeing her daughters move on, and not really knowing what to do with herself at this point in her life.

and any of that could be entirely wrong, frankly. but the point is to get at, subtly, and artfully, what is driving her feelings and actions. because then you can better work with it.

its a bit of a trap, too. because shes venting to you about your daughters, and if you try to reason with her, youre siding with them (from her perspective) when the point is almost certainly less who is right or wrong, but ultimately, her feelings of loss and how shes coping with them. she may be looking for support while kind of casting you in an unrealistic and precarious position, and that may be the trap youre falling into.

what do you think? what do you suspect is driving her?

[GTK]

once removed - thanks for your response and thought provoking questions.  She and I are going through some life changing situations with one daughter marrying and, frankly, the other daughter will only be a couple of years behind her sister.

So you're right. She's going to have to adjust to the fact that her role in her daughter's life will be changed . . .speaking plainly, it will be lessened, as it should be when a child takes a spouse. I watched her mother struggle with that change when we married and we both paid an emotional toll for that struggle.

Damage has been done to her relationships with our daughters (and me) as she struggled with their new roles as young adults looking to exert independence. As she struggles, she says the most hurtful, hateful things, essentially looking to pick a fight. A fight WILL ensue if someone tries to defend themselves (a natural response)  She says these directly to us when she's in a rage . . .and it hurts, so naturally we're not geared (with years of experiences) to naturally want to spend time with her. We all live in fear of even the simpliest of disagreements turns into a rage.

I really do think the things I wrote about originally (and in subsequent replies) are at the core of this . . .namely an EPICALLY low self esteem. Everyone and every relationship her loved ones have with others, are a threat to her and therefore, she HAS to destroy them. She does this verbally to our daughters (not so much me because I don't foster any outside the home relationships) and now that one of them is engaged, she repeating her mother's approach and going after our daughter's future-in-laws.  If my daughter dares to defend them (because alot of my wife's attacks are based on PURE speculation/supposition) she really starts launching verbal nukes. Most of these fights end in phrases like "I'm done . . so done with you! " "Have a nice wedding . . . I won't be there!" "Go crawl up your future mother-in-law's ass . . .someone who hasn't contributed one dime toward your wedding!"

That's pretty much all ready to come out, over and over again, at the drop of a perceived wrong word, as we step through getting this wedding done.

So to your final two questions . . everything at the core of her rages is the "below sea level" self esteem nor coupled with a major transition in her life . . . .daughter's marriage.

[DS2020]

GTK, I've certainly heard the "I'm done with you" outburst and threat a million times. How do your daughters perceive this behavior? How does your daughter discuss this with her future husband and family? Is everyone in on the "reality" of your wife's behavior and the likely BPD origin of it? Or do they downplay it, explain it away, keep it secret?

The fact that it seems to be worsening would seem to be troubling. It almost seems like your daughters are going to have to set boundaries and be okay with a severed relationship if your wife chooses to break those boundaries. I know everyone is just trying to make it through the wedding, but if this continues to worsen, I would be afraid that her behavior or even the fear of her behavior might taint what should be one of the happiest days of her life.

[GTK]

My daughter's have gotten help in therapy and in BPD groups. They know their mom is BPD and I told them they have to grieve over the loss of the relationship they felt they "should" have simply because that's their mom and they had expectations of what a mom "should" be. One of the hardest things is (and this relates to a question someone asked me earlier and I failed to answer) that she DOES still show these flashes of being a loving mom, and mom who can have a conversation that is lucid and helpful to her daughters, even fun. But that mom/woman is a person we're seeing less and less of over the last few years. And we're now all so "gun-shy" that we don't let go and buy into that fun - loving mom because we know just one word on our part can have it all unravel into rage.

The most important person in my engaged daughter's life is now her finacee . . .as it should be. I respect that. I know I can have a role in her life going forward if I strive to be the best "older father" I can be . . .and that's just a new chapter of my life based on my previous chapters, where I tried my best to reflect fatherly love into their lives. I see that approach as "win-win". They WANT me in their lives  . . .which is what I want. It's win -win.

But I am married to their mom who just seems to value the fights and the acrimony too much. That WILL result in alienation and I'm saddened that as they push their mom away . . . I'll be pushed away too as part of the package. My daughters have a right to build their best lives possible and that usually means cutting out people who make you feel horrible whenever you're near them.

[myinnertorch]

Be warned...sometimes our BPD SO's can pull the trigger of divorce, discard and remain headstrong in their conviction of following through...or sort of...and I write sort of as my wife did actually fill out the paperwork to file for divorce, but because I am out of state working, thanks to the USPS, did not officially "serve me"...frustrated, she has now instructed me to file for divorce, something I have told her I will not do until I return home at the end of the month. In her now limited contact with me, she sends me reminder texts to fill out the paperwork and file, so nice to hear from her.
We both cannot financially survive outside the marriage. On paper it makes no sense, but she is still frothing at the mouth in wanting this divorce and has become very unpleasant in communicating with.
My wife, like countless others with BPD has been threatening divorce since we got married, but after 18 years she appears to be serious this time. I can't wait to return home,    she's already told me she wants to hot foot it to the courthouse to file.
Do these people have any handle on reality...or do we have to live in their melodrama?
I remain amazed at the stories I read here, and they are all real, this stuff cannot be made up.

[GTK]

myinnertorch - I'm sorry for what you're going through.  My wife threatens divorce . . .on average . . .I'd say about once every ten days now. Forgot if I wrote it on the board, but last time was over me picking up the wrong type of underwear for our son.

I hate it, but I know she doesn't mean it . . .still doesn't mean that it doesn't wound me to hear it. When I write out the things I realize about my wife and her BPD I can't help but imagine that some of you may think . . . "what the heck is he doing here if he KNOWS these things?"

For instance - financially . . at this current stage of life my wife earns NOTHING. I only ever asked to work to have her mad money. I pay ALL the bills, everything. When she worked she'd occasionally pick up some groceries here and there which helped.

Health care - I have the health/dental plan and I carry her on it. She's my wife after all!

Cooking - I do it when I get home from work. She does laundry and we split cleaning.

Retirement - I have provided for this with TWO full pension plans (State and my Military) with her as the beneficiary. Even if I die . . she gets paid. She divorces me . . . .I change who my beneficiaries are.

When she's lucid and calm and I can fit it into conversation I'll reiterate a story from my old Army boss, who was told his wife wanted a divorce on our final deployment. He said he wanted to work things out (they had kids - teenagers at this point and like me . . taking vows seriously . .he felt an obligation to take care of his wife) She said no. He replied . . "You sure?" Her: "Yes, I hate you my life is going to be so much better without you!"  Him: "Ok"

As they began the proceeding the judge in the case noticed her college degree (she had been stay at home all this time) and informed her that he'd award spousal support for ONE year during which time she had to find a job and that he'd recommend she find a job that paid benefits. She did get a percentage of his Army retirement.  When she went home and did the math  as to what she would have to do to support herself (i.e. WORK) she called him and asked if they could call off the divorce and try to reconcile. He said "Nope . . this is what you wanted. Now considering what I did for you all these years . . .was I really such an a$$hole?"

When people are emotional - almost pure emotions - as BPD people tend to be . . .they don't use their heads. They don't think beyond their last outburst.

Everything . . everyone my wife cares about is wrapped up in me and our three children. She literally NEEDS us to live. And that's what makes the way she treats us so utterly insane.

[Serenitywithin]

Wow sorry to hear alll this! But you could be living my life to a t! I have four kids and the three older, 15 being the oldest are always disrespecting her and ignoring her as she perceives it. We also have a 3 yr old so she is content to have the young one that clings to her and is her little helper but when the little one climbs up in my lap and won’t come
Back to her she get a upset.


So I am not looking forward to my kids being as old as yours and dealing with more outside folks but I do feel for you!

[Stolen]

She divorces me . . . .I change who my beneficiaries are.


I would look into that asap.  My four years before six judges caused me to twitch at that. 

[GTK]

I don't truly fear her divorcing me  . . . .when she's threatening it, it means she's raging in full BPD mode which makes life very tense . . . NOT how I like living life.

If she were actually to divorce me I understand her attorney would quickly look into assets and make motions for certain "splits" . . .including life insurance levels.  But I've gone through this (in a manner of speaking) with some friends and I've seen what has happened in the gradual (almost glacial ) evolution of courts regarding divorce. There are less and less of the "little woman"  . . . um . . .June Cleaver (dunno if that resonates with folks on this board with '50's -'60's TV references) type marriages out there. What I mean by that is many, many, many more marriages consist of TWO working/educated/trained people. I know my mother-in-law who basically INJECTED BPD into her daughters let them know (based on her 1940's - 1950's perspective) that as a stay at home woman . . .if you divorce your husband you get half of everything AND he supports you, nicely BTW, for the rest of his life and yours.

My divorced friends . . .married to college educated women, tell quite different stories for marriages that end nowadays. As I mentioned earlier, my Army boss, in his divorce had to provide a certain level of spousal support for one year because his ex had an education and marketable skills. The judge told her to "go get a job and support yourself and get your own health benefits".  Not quite what my M-I-L had told her daughters. I think my wife is aware that things aren't the same in divorce court as they were in the 1950's.