Do BPD Remain "Kids First" Ever During Divorce?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hey.

So, he's ALWAYS said that the kids are the top priority, wants them to have a better childhood than he did, and that if we ever got divorced, he would want to settle outside of court. He has always said he doesn't want me to be a struggling single mom.

I don't believe he will be a high conflict BPD type.

Right now, he said he "loves me and isn't angry with me and understands." He is also VERY CONCERNED about us remaining friends, "no one understands me like you do."

He has always said that about our friendship, that we get along, have so much fun, etc.

Does this ever last? Has anyone ever heard of this lasting?

I don't mean i want to be friends, haha, I mean just him not rage-y and wanting to make sure kids are first.

For now, I'm using validation. When he asked about working things out via text yesterday, I responded that I heard him, but I don't feel the same. When he asked about friends, I said we can figure that out after this part is done (or something to that effect). I'm stalling for now.

He did go on for a bit yesterday:

"I want to tell you I'm sorry and I'll do better and I'll get treatment and everything else to express that I know how bad I f****** up. The book I'm reading "7 Habits of Highly Effective People," makes me realize just how much I react to life, floating off with whatever idea or thought or influence i have at that moment. And that's not a way to live or love. I got a glimpse of how good it could be and then that slipped away and now  I regret it. I regret so much now. And I'm terrified that you are the best thing to ever happen to me as I'm letting it leave."

My response: I hear what you are saying. I think you should not have to hide to be you. I need to be me though too."

Earlier:

Him: I'm sorry we are at this point but I understand I pushed us to this point. I hope you can forgive me for that one day. Can we agree to try to be civil and not turn this into an ugly lawyer filled divorce?

Me: I would like that.

Him: Okay. We are great friends, I would love to try and keep that. I don't want to be like my parents. Do you think there's an option for us all to stay in the same house or at the same address at least?

--
This is a normal part of his cycle with me when I've been angry in the past. I just never held onto it for long or pushed divorce like this before. He knows it's for real now. When he asked in a different text if I was just done working on us, I responded with a "yes."

I don't know what to expect now.

And, my therapist helped me realize that being in this new state is not best for the kids. I want to move back to my home state and our last town.

It will KILL ME to go by my old house, because I loved, loved, loved that house so much...but the kids are miserable here. After the divorce bombshell, I think they'll be better off with their friends around and familiar everything.

Since I don't even know the area, how can I possibly figure out where to live and find a job? I'd love remote writing for a company, but OMG with pandemic, so would everyone else. How would I find brainpower for my site? If I do a stupid brainless (and low paying merchandising type of job UGH), then I would still have the brain for such things and if kids had to elearn, I'd still be around.

I just don't know.

We focused on HIS first degree, HIS MBA, HIS career, HIS credit score. He's at 768. I'm barely above 650. Since he is making more, we can afford to split up. 

Anyway. With the oldest in high school, and when he graduates, the youngest heads into high school, and I would be stuck wherever I chose for the next seven years.

I love the trees and all out here, so do the kids, but the kids aren't happy about anything else. They are as isolated as I am. It just feels impossible to try to make it work where I am.

Heading back won't be easy. I'm supposed to talk to someone about relocation from the women's crisis shelter because I can't do this alone. It cost a fortune to get out here.

But jeez. How do we go from 4700 square feet back into a rental? How do I take the kids away from their dad? Break up the family? And MOVE AGAIN? The thought of packing again is overwhelming. That would be five moves in four years. I know it's best.

Will I be able to convince him to let us go? We'll tackle that topic in our joint therapy session with my therapist and his. Unfortunately, he screwed up, and it won't be tomorrow. Next week some time. Ugh.

Darn it. He's texting about kids' and how to get them friends and such right now. I can't have the relocation talk with him. I'm just responding with the kids are upset. Though I did have to say I don't plan on sticking around afterward. When he asks where I will go, I will have to say that I don't know, but I need a job, and I don't know if my small town is the best shot at that!

I think he is still hoping we live in this house together, but separate.

Any advice at keeping the peace, if anyone has been able to keep their BPD calm and easy to work with during this, and anything else I should know would be wonderful. Please.

(I'm working through the Splitting book).

[TrulyMadlyDeeply]

Hey.

So, he's ALWAYS said that the kids are the top priority, wants them to have a better childhood than he did, and that if we ever got divorced, he would want to settle outside of court. He has always said he doesn't want me to be a struggling single mom.

I don't believe he will be a high conflict BPD type.

Right now, he said he "loves me and isn't angry with me and understands." He is also VERY CONCERNED about us remaining friends, "no one understands me like you do."

He has always said that about our friendship, that we get along, have so much fun, etc.

Does this ever last? Has anyone ever heard of this lasting?

I don't mean i want to be friends, haha, I mean just him not rage-y and wanting to make sure kids are first.

For now, I'm using validation. When he asked about working things out via text yesterday, I responded that I heard him, but I don't feel the same. When he asked about friends, I said we can figure that out after this part is done (or something to that effect). I'm stalling for now.

He did go on for a bit yesterday:

"I want to tell you I'm sorry and I'll do better and I'll get treatment and everything else to express that I know how bad I f****** up. The book I'm reading "7 Habits of Highly Effective People," makes me realize just how much I react to life, floating off with whatever idea or thought or influence i have at that moment. And that's not a way to live or love. I got a glimpse of how good it could be and then that slipped away and now  I regret it. I regret so much now. And I'm terrified that you are the best thing to ever happen to me as I'm letting it leave."

My response: I hear what you are saying. I think you should not have to hide to be you. I need to be me though too."

Earlier:

Him: I'm sorry we are at this point but I understand I pushed us to this point. I hope you can forgive me for that one day. Can we agree to try to be civil and not turn this into an ugly lawyer filled divorce?

Me: I would like that.

Him: Okay. We are great friends, I would love to try and keep that. I don't want to be like my parents. Do you think there's an option for us all to stay in the same house or at the same address at least?

--
This is a normal part of his cycle with me when I've been angry in the past. I just never held onto it for long or pushed divorce like this before. He knows it's for real now. When he asked in a different text if I was just done working on us, I responded with a "yes."

I don't know what to expect now.

And, my therapist helped me realize that being in this new state is not best for the kids. I want to move back to my home state and our last town.

It will KILL ME to go by my old house, because I loved, loved, loved that house so much...but the kids are miserable here. After the divorce bombshell, I think they'll be better off with their friends around and familiar everything.

Since I don't even know the area, how can I possibly figure out where to live and find a job? I'd love remote writing for a company, but OMG with pandemic, so would everyone else. How would I find brainpower for my site? If I do a stupid brainless (and low paying merchandising type of job UGH), then I would still have the brain for such things and if kids had to elearn, I'd still be around.

I just don't know.

We focused on HIS first degree, HIS MBA, HIS career, HIS credit score. He's at 768. I'm barely above 650. Since he is making more, we can afford to split up. 

Anyway. With the oldest in high school, and when he graduates, the youngest heads into high school, and I would be stuck wherever I chose for the next seven years.

I love the trees and all out here, so do the kids, but the kids aren't happy about anything else. They are as isolated as I am. It just feels impossible to try to make it work where I am.

Heading back won't be easy. I'm supposed to talk to someone about relocation from the women's crisis shelter because I can't do this alone. It cost a fortune to get out here.

But jeez. How do we go from 4700 square feet back into a rental? How do I take the kids away from their dad? Break up the family? And MOVE AGAIN? The thought of packing again is overwhelming. That would be five moves in four years. I know it's best.

Will I be able to convince him to let us go? We'll tackle that topic in our joint therapy session with my therapist and his. Unfortunately, he screwed up, and it won't be tomorrow. Next week some time. Ugh.

Darn it. He's texting about kids' and how to get them friends and such right now. I can't have the relocation talk with him. I'm just responding with the kids are upset. Though I did have to say I don't plan on sticking around afterward. When he asks where I will go, I will have to say that I don't know, but I need a job, and I don't know if my small town is the best shot at that!

I think he is still hoping we live in this house together, but separate.

Any advice at keeping the peace, if anyone has been able to keep their BPD calm and easy to work with during this, and anything else I should know would be wonderful. Please.

(I'm working through the Splitting book).

[livednlearned]

I don't believe he will be a high conflict BPD type.

Let's hope so 

Does this ever last? Has anyone ever heard of this lasting?

Emotions are probably going to jump around as different doors begin to close for him in the relationship. His ideas about divorce seem to be based in fantasy (eg. living in the same home together as friends).

When he asked about working things out via text yesterday, I responded that I heard him, but I don't feel the same

This is more like SET (support, empathy, truth). It's a good skill to have for what's coming next.

I hear what you are saying. I think you should not have to hide to be you. I need to be me though too."

 

Can we agree to try to be civil and not turn this into an ugly lawyer filled divorce?

Me: I would like that.

Him: Okay. We are great friends, I would love to try and keep that. I don't want to be like my parents. Do you think there's an option for us all to stay in the same house or at the same address at least?

How do you think he will respond when he realizes that this isn't going to happen? Is he hoping to avoid attorneys altogether?

I don't know what to expect now

What is the worse you hope to avoid?

After the divorce bombshell, I think they'll be better off with their friends around and familiar everything

.

Can you remind us again how old the kids are, and how long you've been in the new place?

Since I don't even know the area, how can I possibly figure out where to live and find a job?

It's reasonable to consider job prospects as part of relocation. If you file for divorce in the county where you are, typically that's where you are expected to reside with the kids.

Do you believe it's realistic that your H will settle amicably, agreeing to allow you to relocate with the kids?

How do we go from 4700 square feet back into a rental? How do I take the kids away from their dad? Break up the family?

What kind of relationship do the kids have with their dad?

I think he is still hoping we live in this house together, but separate.

This seems like something a little kid would hope for 

Any advice at keeping the peace, if anyone has been able to keep their BPD calm and easy to work with during this, and anything else I should know would be wonderful.

I think the best we can hope for is to not make things worse.

Your H goes through tender cycles, which is helpful. It also seems he wants to appease you as much as possible so that his fantasy about living together while divorced remains. He's bargaining.

[formflier]

Perhaps it would help you to make a pros and cons list of the two different states.

Remove personal "likes" and "dislikes" from that list.

That might make this a bit easier.

All of that being said, I would encourage you to focus on getting the best divorce deal that leaves you as much in control as possible, especially when it comes to money...since it appears he will be providing the vast majority of it.

I would also encourage you to tweak your language a bit from "yes" to "yes I can see that as a possibility" or "yes that is possible".

He could easily see the "yes" as an "agreement".

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

One question I have, since this move is very recent, is whether you have established legal residence in the new state for filing for divorce. This typically takes six months. If that is the case, you can stay in the new state and file at six months, or you can return to your previous state and file there. You might want to see which state might be more advantageous in a legal sense.

[TrulyMadlyDeeply]

Hi,

Our boys are JUST turned 11 and 15.

We weren't here for three weeks when he asked for a woman to use as an object once a year (his NEED).

We've been here six weeks this past Tuesday.

|--->How do you think he will respond when he realizes that this isn't going to happen? Is he hoping to avoid attorneys altogether?

Yes, he does NOT want to deal with court and lawyers. It seems to be a big thing with him. He's always said that too. I honestly can't decide what will happen when he realizes things are over, over. Part of me is worried about suicide, something he has considered off and on since his teens. He was terribly depressed when 2019's woman ditched him, and that was someone he was with physically maybe five times, and only chatted/etc. long distance from March or April to the end of June the same year. He was DEVASTATED for someone he later admitted he didn't know at all and had built up in his head.

I'm not sure how things will go when someone who KNOWS him leaves...with the kids...and the cats. I will watch for the signs of downhill everything, and if he talks about suicide, I won't hesitate to call 911.

 |--->It's reasonable to consider job prospects as part of relocation. If you file for divorce in the county where you are, typically that's where you are expected to reside with the kids.

I've been told that 1. I'm not a resident of this state until I hit the sixth month mark and 2. since it's been abusive, that I can leave anyway.

|--->Do you believe it's realistic that your H will settle amicably, agreeing to allow you to relocate with the kids?

Since he does talk about the "kids' best interest," I'm hoping he can see them and what is best for them, instead of having us around for an ego boost and attention source. We will discuss with joint therapists next week sometime. 

He did ask this evening if we can work on us for the next six months to a year, where he lives in the carriage house, while kids and I are in the house. He said it is to "help me prepare." I declined.

He does seem terrified of the idea of court. I think threatening court, if it came to that, could help.

|--->What kind of relationship do the kids have with their dad?
From Feb - July, I would have said it was good. That's when he was Good Dad and Husband. Since we moved in August (and a few weeks prior to that when he was already in touch with new woman), he was more about his phone and less about being engaged with us.

The oldest sobbed today about how the three of us are different when Dad is around. And he's right. We all walk on eggshells trying to avoid making him mad or irritated. The kids are quieter. The youngest doesn't sing like he used to. Husband picks on/mean-spirited teases too much and doesn't say enough nice things. Constant complaining. It wears me down. I can only imagine how they feel.

 Your H goes through tender cycles, which is helpful. It also seems he wants to appease you as much as possible so that his fantasy about living together while divorced remains. He's bargaining.

My therapist recommended I say things like, "Yes, that's something to consider." She said to remember I can agree to staying in the house with him as a divorced couple, but that I still get to change my mind. Just to keep him calm for now.

He changed trash cans in the house today. I don't remember him doing that, um, ever before. True, he didn't add a new bag in the kitchen, left the can out of the cabinet, and the cabinet door open, but that might be so I notice he did something and praise him for it.

He sent multiple emails to the oldest son today. Not to the youngest. I do feel like he splits the youngest into "bad" and he is a wonderful kid. They both are. It's concerning. Husband "pretended" to be irritated with the oldest for not responding to any of his emails. Husband probably was irritated. He had me trained to instantly respond.

I think that's why oldest broke down in the kitchen today. Receiving all those emails, when husband doesn't do that normally, and a reminder how his dad just isn't fun or himself right now. I wish husband could see the way he's hurting the boys.

Perhaps it would help you to make a pros and cons list of the two different states.

Our home state wins by a landslide. Family, friends, support. Familiarity. I have a lot of professional connections in our home state, so finding work that matches my skills wouldn't necessarily be as hard. My former neighbor and a pal in our last town are both keeping eyes peeled for rentals, and since they are both active in community (retired teacher, husband of other was in public office).

The kids already loved their school (and I mean they loved it) and they both had friends. Both kids were known for their talents and gifts and the youngest was encouraged by the school principal in his guitar playing. We all enjoyed the trails and roads for walks/bike rides. I already know where it's cheapest to get groceries, where to go for whatever. Already had doctors, etc.

i already know moving back will be...hard. We loved our house and our neighbors and its location. We loved it. Knowing I was so close to being able to stay there...well, that will be gut wrenching for us, I know. But all the rest of those things above, those positive things, will help us heal.

In this state? Well, my husband told me that "we've hardly been here, so it's not like I can have terrible memories of this house yet."

For real. He texted that earlier.

Except this is where I thought we were going to have a fresh start and all the good. It's before I knew about BPD or that I was being abused or being told he would "f my life or f me up."

I had been so waffly about what the heck to do, where to live, where to go, and then when therapist pointed out how things can change with him too...my gut said to go back to our state. It just feels...right.

I have since felt more settled, even though a big move makes it more complicated. It cost us $11,000 bucks to get out here. While I obviously wouldn't have the same amount of stuff, and I'd have to downsize significantly anyway, well, I'll just see how the crisis center said they can help when we talk tomorrow.

I would also encourage you to tweak your language a bit from "yes" to "yes I can see that as a possibility" or "yes that is possible".

He could easily see the "yes" as an "agreement".

Noted. Thank you. So much to remember as to what to say and how to say it! I want to tell him so bad about the oldest crying in the kitchen about missing our last town...but I don't know how he'd take it, so I'm not. A few months ago, I wouldn't have thought twice about talking with him about anything.

I know that he will fill his time with new woman and online everything anyway. I think he will pull away from the boys when we are done. I hate to think he would do that, but it's the same thing his dad did, and I think it would make things easier on him to fill his extra time with work stuff too. That way he will be "too busy" anyway.

He's reading upstairs in the playroom where they are. He read maybe a book a year before. I know the kids are uncomfortable, because the youngest has come down twice, and the oldest once, to ask if I wanted to join them with a video game.

This has turned into a big rambling mess.

I'm just ready to be on my own. Although the whole idea of dating in this day and age is absolutely terrifying, and things my husband has said about how "no one has what we have" worries me (what if that's true and HE was the best I'll get?) one day I'll heal and be ready.

And the kids will heal too, once I can get them back where they know love and acceptance on a consistent basis, without such a strong negative force.

[worriedStepmom]

Six weeks?  Yes, go home.  I would try to go ASAP.

How much stuff do you really need to move?  It might be cheaper to pack the clothes and essentials and buy new (used) furniture when you get back home.

In your shoes, I would call a lawyer in your home state and ask how a divorce would work if you were to return home.  If you were there and H was in this new state, how would custody normally work with the boys?  How would assets and debts be split?  What would child support look like?  This is good information to have before you take any action.

My H's uBPDex is also terrified of court.  She agreed to pretty much whatever H wanted in terms of custody.  She has also threatened to abandon SD many many many times "because you think I'm bad for her and I only want what's best for her and that means I shouldn't see her anymore ever" and because SD doesn't respond to texts immediately, so therefore SD must not want mom around.  It's exhausting, for SD, for us, and probably for mom.

[TrulyMadlyDeeply]

I went through an old notebook of his today that I'd been  hanging onto. Well, I was originally going to burn it so kids wouldn't find it...but I forgot. I'm glad I didn't.

He writes how he physically abused me and the oldest and that he has pushed me around when I would intervene. How did I forget? I remember him getting to mad and I would take the kid away. That made him more mad.

He said that he has cheated on me, lied about it, and then made me believe I am the one who is messed up.

Heavy.

There is so much more. I took pics of it and hid it. It gets very, very wrong. Illegal wrong. I'm not sure what to do about that part of it. He did also date all of it.

It feels like I have leverage.

Crisis center is working hard. OMG I can't believe how hard she is working and she doesn't even know me! I just feel like a big mooch.

But, she said we can do a UHaul with a trailer. The thought of driving something that big just freaks me out, but I don't know if I could find anyone to come all the way out here like that to help.

So. my husband is currently telling me it won't work to sell this house. He said I could get a rental and then come here in the morning to work and watch the kids.

 

What?

I'm trying to keep my cool. He keeps telling me that it won't sell. That it will cost too much. BUT he's telling me we would each have $60k a year to live on as though that wouldn't be enough! That's plenty for me! Thanks to his numerous job losses, I know how to live on much much less than that! 

He said it's too expensive to rent this house as an airbnb (even though past people did it while trying to sell for a year). That there isn't money for us to "have good houses for the kids with enough room" that we'd be paying more...but that's not true. The mortgage isn't cheap here.

For what house rentals cost, I'd look at roughly half what we pay! He should need even less, it's just him most of the time. Well, if it's my way, I don't know if he should have contact with them after the things I found in his notebook.

He's getting angry. I know. Funny, because this morning he texted to say he saw everything from my point of view and can't blame me for not wanting to be friends or to want to stay in this house where I'd have to see him.

Not staying here has nothing to do with him, and everything to do with his effect on the kids.

And me.

Now, he's talking about me renting, while he is here, and I come here in the morning to take care of things?

Sigh.

Crisis center said mid-October. I feel like it's so wrong to just leave while he's at work. She made it sound like there is no problem with leaving at all.

Does it help that I now have something where he wrote all about his issues? And the abuse? Dated 2011.

How did I not see any of this?

Still need to figure out a place to stay. Shelter said they could even store my things for a month if I just get there, and need to figure it out. I couldn't do that to the kids. They need something to feel like home, ya know? Too much change.

While I know it would be good to know how debts, etc. would look, I don't think I can keep waiting here. Kids' mental health is in a downward slide. Husband is becoming angry again.

And I have to say my gut is telling me to leave or something NOW. I don't know what that's about. I'm assuming a trigger from his texts and knowing he's getting angry. I don't know.

I'm talking to the oldest today. Crisis shelter said to ask how he feels about the idea of moving back. To make him feel like he has a say. And to later help him support his brother.
 

[GaGrl]

Depending g on how your negotiations go, that journal could be critical info.

Do not let him know you have it.

Can you upload your pictures of the journal to a cloud account?

Can you have someone at the crisis center hold onto the original journal?

Is there a friend in your old town who would be willing to help you move? From experience, I can tell you that it is easier to drive a smaller U-haul truck that it is to pull a trailerc(which requires a special hitch fitted to your car. You can drive a truck and pull your car, if necessary. However, if you have a friend who can fly to your town and help you pack and move, he/she can drive one of the vehicles. Ask -- you'd be surprised what people will do when asked.

Above all, listen to your intuition.

[momtara]

I read your first post and not the followups. Just have to say that this is all so hard and messy. Of course we see the good side of them; that's why we married them. It doesn't make sense to us rational folks how they can have two personalities. Moving, breaking up a family, downsizing, trying to establish boundaries, it's all hard. It's possible you can set enough boundaries so he won't be high conflict and understands. Every case is different. But they do tend to have moments of realization, then (occasionally or more often) backslide. It's ok to take your time to make sure you want this. For me, I had to leave when it was just too dangerous and heartbreaking to stay. We all have  breaking point. Sending hugs.

[I Am Redeemed]

Hey, TrulyMadlyDeeply,

Has his actions indicated that he has a "kids first" mindset? Or just his words.

It's one thing to say he wants his kids to have a better childhood than he had, that he doesn't want you to be a struggling single mom, etc. It's another to engage in behaviors that indicate that these things are truly reflective of his values.

Do his actions reflect that he values family, his children, his marriage? Or do his actions reflect that he values his own desires?

He may say what he thinks is the "right" thing to say while his behavior indicates something different.

A person who wants his kids to have a better childhood than he had would not abuse his children's mother...or his kids.

A person who did not want to have his wife become a struggling single mother would not put her welfare in jeopardy.

this is hard. Be aware that his flowery words may be just a way to emotionally disarm you from making decisions that do not suit him.

I know it's going to be hard on your kids to be uprooted again, but the benefit to them of not living in a contentious home will be very favorable. Kids pick up on things when we don't even realize the level of their awareness.

Take pics of every page of that journal and if you get the chance to physically take it with you when you go, do it. It's evidence in his own handwriting that he is aware of what he did.

Listen, a little hardship now is better than the long-term effects an abusive r/s will have on you and your boys. They are looking to the only role model they have for how to be a man. Remember that.

I left with basically nothing. I moved in with a coworker who took me in. I put some of my things in storage but I lost a lot of possessions.

I saved money and bought a car, which broke down, then I bought a used van a year later.
Six months later I moved into a rental in a blue collar, low rent part of town.

My son has blossomed and says he "loves our house". It's a seventy-year-old house. There's no bathtub. My son takes a bath in a huge plastic storage tub filled up with water from the shower head. There's gas heat, I keep having to light the pilot, there's window A/C units. It's about 800 sq ft. And it has been our sanctuary.

Don't get me wrong, I hope to be able to buy a house next year. I bought a new car this year. I finished a bachelor's degree and am working on a master's. It's been tough, but it was nothing compared to the abuse I lived with.

If you have a strong support system and more opportunities in the other state, plus job prospects, I would say don't hesitate to go back there. And do not expect your H to be accomodating throughout the process. He may be in an appeasement mode in the hopes of reeling you back in. Keep that journal for leverage, by all means.

I think he is bargaining for ways to keep you attached while possibly creating the distance (and permission) to pursue outside r/s without shame or hiding it. Be aware that this thinking is centered on fulfiling his needs without considering your best interests (or your kids).

[TrulyMadlyDeeply]

You are right. You are all right. It's so hard to see all of this as abusive. Remember, I also haven't had a consistent job either. I pick up things here and there when I was emotionally able. Last year when I was working on my site, well, that's when he told me about his affairs. I stopped doing all of that. When I started up again, he had job interviews, and kept erasing my mind map/site organization on my whiteboard. Oh, he took pics, but after the second erasing, I was done. Then he took the job...and I just didn't bother.

So, yesterday was INCREDIBLY productive.

I don't have a lot of people to ask to come out and help. I mean, it's a NINE HOUR DRIVE to get here to there. That's a lot to ask of someone. I reached out to more people yesterday, and one of them did mention coming out with trucks and guys to load things. I don't know how to ask that of someone. Moving sucks. But, I also know I can't get some of this stuff out with just the kid and I. I don't want to leave my grandpa's desk or my grandma's table.

Friend (more acquaintance really, I don't have friend friends anymore thanks to husband, but I'm working on connecting again) is being incredibly supportive. They all are, but she's being extra helpful. She told me she left her abusive family at 15 thanks to other people's help. I'm shocked. She's so smart and funny and kind and successful. Just an awesome person. I guess I should pursue her offer of moving help more.

I figured out how we can get some of the kids things packed up too. I will say I am going to paint that room! That's why they will have to box their legos and take their stuff down from the walls! *brilliant*

I'll wait, of course, until the weekend or two before I'd mention that. That way, he won't even see that the legos are wrapped in packing paper. Kids can wrap them up as they do, except for a top box we can leave untaped. He won't notice if they go in the youngest's room, because he favors the oldest. I don't know how you can favor a kid, but he does. I can't NOT see it now. I can't drag the painting thing out too much, but I can make excuses as to why I didn't get started, etc.

I will also set up a small order of groceries. He will 1. have to give me a time for pickup and 2. have to stop to get them. Then I'll know when he's on his way too.

Just a reminder, crisis shelter told me to leave while he's at work. He does NOT know I am moving back to Indiana with the kids. He had told me two weeks ago that if I took the kids away from him again, that he would f*** me up. I wouldn't believe he could do that, but the look in his eyes. I think there's a good chance he would kill me if he knew. He was so cold and just...dead inside.

I'm trying to decide whether to spend the money on a storage unit, so we can pack and hide stuff, or if I should just look in the basement for a good spot. Husband is NOT interested in going into this basement ever. Not sure what that's about, but he doesn't at all. I think I can start by hiding things in plain site in closets. He spends so much time in the garage, he won't notice. He doesn't put anything away either, so it's not like he'd open it up. I'd leave out stuff we won't bring too, so it isn't obvious.

I was thinking a storage unit would give me more time on move out day, except I load boxes in first, so maybe that won't be the best way to go. I guess it will depend on whether or not I have any help. If not, storage unit will be the way to go or I won't get out in time.

I also likely found a remote writing job. I did work for her in the past, when she worked elsewhere, but now she has her own company. Someone had a parent pass away, someone is on maternity leave, and they were looking to hire someone anyway already.

BAM! I'm speaking with her Thursday. Unless I blow it, I'm in.

Pay isn't amazing, but I should still be able to pick up side writing stuff, and work on my site, to help fill in gaps. It's still better pay than if I worked retail or whatever. And it's from home with someone also supportive, who also apparently planned for two months to leave an abusive situation! She is growing the company, so raises are a thing as they afford them. It's only a year old.

That is exciting. I can still be available to the kids, work on my new brand, and work on the side as projects head my way. AND be able to do it while I'm still here! If he keeps his job, I'll be more than fine. Actually, I'd be better off since I'm a careful shopper. I would be able to save up for a house (we are old house people).

I'm looking into housing, but there is only one place, and it's not yet available. It's also offered  by AmericanHomes4Rent, if I remember right. We have four cats. I know rental management places aren't down with that. Does anyone know if they do house checks? I keep a super clean home, so I'm not concerned about that.

Cats ALWAYS use the litter box. They aren't destructive and two of the four don't have front claws. When we moved out, no one would even know. It'll be in the same condition. I'm just...I hate lying. I just want a property owner to say it's fine, but I don't want to blow my chances if I can't find anywhere else either.

In the hole of a city nearby, there are plenty of nice homes for rent, and for good prices. Again, what do I do about kitties? Jeez, I just hate lying.

But, part of it was to BE back where we love and for kids to have familiarity and easy access to everything. I would have to drive them to the school each day (and they have different start times, so that's complicated), and it wouldn't be in our town where we already have friend connections. Then with their after school stuff eventually...

So, what would you do? Would you say you have two cats?

I also told the oldest yesterday. Crisis center said to ask what he thought about relocating back. He sobbed. He was upset. At first he talked about how it wasn't all that great there and so on. I asked if it's because he doesn't think it was great or because he was told it wasn't all that great.

I let oldest process a bit, coming around to offer up a hug every now and then, just checkin' in.

Couple hours later...oldest hasn't stopped smiling. He is so thrilled to move now! Well, okay, he's upset about packing up again and I can't blame him. He had packed up all the legos because he wanted to be sure they were done right. He cannot wait to see his friends. Wants me to tell the youngest, because he thinks he'd be thrilled too, but I don't think I should just yet. But really, oldest is over the moon happy.

So. I just need to figure out housing right now. And if I can get physical moving help. Hmm...there is a college nearby. I wonder if there are any philanthropic clubs? Explain the situation, see if I can get some help that way? I don't know.

(I took pics of every page of the journal. I wouldn't tell him)

I did mention I liked his idea about him staying here, paying all the bills, and then splitting the remaining. When I brought it back up, mentioned I had site stuff I wanted as my excuse for doing that, he seemed to brush it off. That sucks. I'll have to carefully work on that.

He loves to make a budget and plan that stuff out. I'll have to appeal to that side of him. I need money. Ha and I need him not to spend all the money, although he seems to have passed through that cycle. He's giving me space again, going so far as to watch a movie in the garage. Giving ME space doesn't have to mean ditching the kids. But they were relieved, I do believe. Lots more laughing.

I know what he makes each payday, so if he takes more out to spend on her or just because lying is fun for him, I'll be quiet. Whatever I got would be beneficial.

[formflier]

Logistically speaking, I'm going to recommend the storage unit.


1.  Stuff is already out of the house and in a thing that is only in your name.

2.  What if the facts on the ground change and you need to leave stuff there and scoot out of town?  Well..in a storage unit "you" have control of the stuff and you can get it whenever you want.

3.  You can also have other people help you, without having to worry about them getting the wrong stuff.

Let's say you need to leave town.  You enlist helpers and have them show up with a truck and get "everything" out of the storage unit.  That's pretty clear because it's all yours. 

What if your stuff was in basement..they show up and hubby says "nope"?

Which option has the best chance of success?

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

I also think the storage unit is the best option. Get as much important stuff in the storage unit as you can, without flagging your H that items are missing.

Would he notice if your heirloom desks are gone? If so, you might want to have anyone helping you move get to the house with a truck and place those items in the truck first, then go to the storage unit and load the rest. Heavy items need to be loaded first anyway.

Cats...hmmmm.  You can ask about a non-refundable deposit. You could also contact a shelter in your old hometown about someone fostering two of the cats until you have a permanent housing situation.

You have a lot going on, and you are thinking through options. Make sure you keep the Top Three priorities front of mind --

1) Safety (current situation and future)
2) Move
3) Security and emotional stability for children

Do you agree that these are the priorities, in no particular order? If so -- everything else needs to filter through these priorities. It would be great if you could get 100% of your needed and wanted items into a storage unit, but it might end up 50% or 80% for the time being.

I suspect you want to have a perfect plan that includes cats, legos, and heirloom furniture. Do you accept that what actually happens might not be perfect? Don't get stuck.

I would urge you to accept any help from people who are offering. If they are "acquaintances" with that level of generosity, they will be part of your support structure in future. You may be gratified at the kindness of people who are a need. When you talk to them, talk in terms of your "safety plan" -- because that's what it is.

[TrulyMadlyDeeply]

He left a journal up on his computer.

I took pics fast and just read them. Twice.

My everything just hurts right now. He was seeing someone else. Yes, she did live hundreds of miles away. I think when he took a weekend off and didn't come home, that he drove out to her...and past our area. It explains why he didn't contact me for hours, claiming he fell asleep.

God, it just hurts. He went on about how he showered her with love and things she wanted and things she needed. He said he ended it with her Sept 1 because he needed time to move in. Apparently his support group (for Dom's, I'm guessing) said he needed to break it off, but disagreed about how.

Apparently she wasn't broken up about it.

He spent almost $2k on her and she didn't care. And he's surprised. He wrote that she showed him things he didn't know about himself and that he was sexually compatible with her in a way he hadn't experienced before...except he had said that to me not to very long ago. He said she made him feel alive.

It hurts so bad. I know, I KNOW, that this is what he does and has done. He builds these online things up in his head. Yes, I'm sure he had a great time with her when he met her in person. But how can he think someone loves him after a couple weeks? How can he be surprised? She told him different reasons why she couldn't see him. Just like the last woman did.

I'm right HERE. I've been HERE. I gave him everything the last several months. Then he just...checked out and in with a new woman, when he was on his own. Two weeks and he started in. That's it.

He was writing about how he thought it was the two of them all the way to the end...and it sounds like BPD to me. I guess I don't know enough about sex addiction. Are they similar?

His therapist doesn't think he has BPD, but a sex addiction. What does that mean now? He wrote he isn't sure he wants to go through that again, that he enjoy it all.

How many times he has done this. Not the money part, the hooking up.

He is depressed, has been depressed. In the beginning he wrote about how I'm this horrible person, that I have nothing, that whatever I do have is all because of him. he wrote an entry yesterday about how I'm amazing and .

But today's entry, that he didn't finish, is entitled "moving day." I don't know what that means, unless he means that he cleaned the garage.

I'm just rambling.

If he doesn't have BPD, am I justified in fleeing still? I just...I just hurt. I'm trying to  focus on the recent hthings he wrote, that he "pushed a good woman past her  breaking point."  He said at every corner he tried harder and harder to push me away, and he finally did.  He wrote that he saw what could have been the most amazing turn in our relationship and that he threw it away. He lit it on fire adn threw it away. HE wrote that he's "sorry he held me back and made me change everything" for him. That he "looks forward to  seeing the amazing woman" that I become. "Thank you for the time I had with you. As much as I tried to destroy it, you held it together, and you held me together. Thank you. I'll always love you for what you've done for me, for everything you've sacrificed for me and our family."

But he wrote on Friday the pros and cons of divorce. He can (pro) 'pursue the type of women" he wants and "pursue sexual interests (in a healthy and unhealthy way). I don't even know what that means.

Ugh, it just hurts. I was feeling so good today and yesterday. I still feel overwhelmed by all there is to do, but to KNOW that he once again thought he loved someone after a couple weeks of talking...it hurts. I am tired of being cast aside. Of feeling less. Of being the housekeeper.

For awhile, I thought he saw me. ME. And it's just all gone again.

All of this is so hard. Why does it have to be SO HARD all the time now? This house and move and everything was supposed to be so good for us! Why couldn't he just stick with me and the kids?

I'm not boring. I'm not ugly or dumb. I just...I can't believe he took care of someone else, gave her gifts, and his time, and attention...while I was unpacking.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear TMD-

I am so deeply sorry...

I hope I don’t upset you further with what I’m about to say, but I’m thinking with what your H has done, and continues to do,  my words won’t actually “hurt” you.  Please know, I do NOT intend to hurt you.

It almost feels to me that this open journal on his computer *may* have been MEANT for you to read.  That those pages were INTENDED to throw you into confusion and further turmoil, (which it did).  As difficult as it is, you’ve got to collect yourself and NOT let it. 

It also seems that it was the woman who broke things off, not your H.   Doesn’t really matter because he has told you he’s got no intention of stopping this behavior no matter how you feel about it... no matter how devastating it is to you or how damaging to your children. . All of your feelings are irrelevant to his desires.  Deeply narcissistic and cold.   My exH (19 years) did something kind of similar, tho’ not nearly as severe (to my direct knowledge).

Whatever his therapist may or may not “diagnose” your H with should hold NO WEIGHT in your *decision to flee* (your words, your FEELINGS).  BPD and sex addiction are not mutually exclusive.  It is not an “either / or” kind of thing.

Your H’s therapist gets all information about your H’s destructive behaviors from your H, correct?  So if the ONLY thing your H discloses is the serial cheating, then that’s all the therapist (T) knows.  If the T has been told about your H’s threats to “F**k” you up”, and other horrid things he’s done, and STILL believes your H’s only issue is sex addiction, then IMO, that T is pretty worthless when it comes to treating your H.

So NO!  A diagnosis, or lack thereof is NOT the determining factor when fleeing a dangerous and abusive marriage.  The threatening and dangerous behaviors ARE the determining factors.  My exH threw me across the room and into a door one night.  This violence came out of nowhere (or so I thought).  There was no diagnosis at the time.  And I couldn’t risk my life sticking around to see if he’d get one. 

So you see, my dear friend?  You layer cruelty upon cruelty and a diagnosis is meaningless.  I am so so sorry. 

I know this is hard, incredibly difficult.   No combination of words seem to be enough.  Your H seems way more than BPD plus sex addiction... he seems to also lean heavily toward narcissistic traits.  I had to move myself through the recovery from narcissistic abuse and I have made wonderful progress.  You can, too.

Your first step is to take your emotions OUT, so you can exit as safely as possible.  Then you will heal... one step at a time.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[TrulyMadlyDeeply]

No, his open journal wasn't on that page and it wasn't on purpose. He was called away and then was talking to a kid. It wasn't open for hours or anything. Maybe 10 minutes from the time I saw it and the time he was back to it.

I can see his thought process. He did break it off, he convinced himself it was love after four weeks, and was devastated again when he broke it off, because he wasn't her first priority, and she made excuses as to why she couldn't set up another date. Funny thing, if he had set up a date, that's probably when I would have moved out.

The difference is that his sex addiction does make sense. I didn't talk to him in the BPD way. Now that he's not in it, he was fine. My T said he had never had to hit rock bottom before. I thought he had. Nope. This was rock bottom.

He accepts this is all his fault. I've been reading about sex addiction and it all fits for him. That's why the cycles. Things were perfect last year, but when he was alone? He couldn't handle it. He is empty inside. He doesn't know who he is, but that new relationship feelings make him feel better. There are different kind of addicts.

He said he reached out to an inpatient facility that treats sex addiction. He'd like to go for a month, but he can't because of work, so he's hoping for a week-long "retreat." He said if they only offer weekend treatment, then he will do that. He is terrified. But he said he can't live like this anymore. That he's tired of having zero self worth. He didn't realize he was abusive and he's dealing with that too. hE's just so broken right now. It's good. He can be rebuilt. There's no glossing it over or pretending it's not that bad.

It is that bad.

He is okay with me taking the kids back home. Well, not okay. He's devastated. But he trusts me to make the best decision for them.

The youngest has been upset. He told them that he is dealing with a mental illness and moving out to the garage for now to better deal with things. He apologized for being angry and mean and for not being a good dad lately. He told them they are welcome out there anytime.

I mentioned to the youngest about moving back home. Without dad. He sobbed. He was so distraught that he wanted me to stay there after I turned out the light. Not sure how much good I did, since i apparently feel asleep for 15 minutes. Ha.

I don't know what I will do yet.

Staying would involve total transparency. His job doesn't have after hours calls or anything. He could hand it over and that would be that.

The thing is, he has to work on his core. He did years ago, and that's when things were good. His T then helped him with all of that, but she long ago retired. His last therapist told him he just had an alternative lifestyle choice, the absolute wrong thing to say. Alternative lifestyle is one thing, a lifetime of lying and cheating and always feeling worthless signifies something else.

But it's his constant feeling of being worthless that eats up everything else. When he finds a new therapist (his actually told him NOT to get a vasectomy because "making a baby sex is the best there is and he might want another baby" if we got divorced). She also told him those feelings "will fade as he gets older." She will not be a help in this case.

It will be a rough, rough, awful, horrible no good road. He will have mood swings and lots of emotional stuff for a couple months after getting started. If he messes up, and he probably will have small mess ups, he'll have a two week period of feeling terrible. It will be truly terrible.

Yet. Working on his core is the way. It's not a bandaid. Last year worked for us because he didn't have to go anywhere alone and sit in that aloneness. He didn't have issues. He was present and a good husband, dad, and even person.

When he gets in this? He can't see anything else. He can't even feel anything else. He lives in his head and works so hard at dulling the pain. There is a lot of symptom overlap with BPD, but I can see now how it's different for him.

There's also hope.

I know at the very least that I will keep my separate bank account. I would keep working and socking it away so I would be in a better position and better able to leave later. I can get my credit score up and, if I feel like I can stick it out long enough, I will finish my degree. I'm still not sure it matters in terms of my extensive experience and background and professional connections (I did already find a remote job), but I might as well. I can keep getting my site done and see where that leads.

At this point, he knows I still want a divorce. I'm not sure what I think just yet. I'm not rushing into anything and I don't have to. Since I have his okay to take the kids, I'm not under a "must leave before becoming a resident" goes into effect.

I don't honestly know what lies ahead. I don't feel love for him right now. I don't feel like I am going to fix him. He's going to fix himself. I do actually believe that. I don't know where I want to fit in that picture.

Ya know, even last night, in between the tears and the discussion and the occasional anger, we still laughed. We still joked.

He knows he did this. He wishes so much he could just go back in time. That he would have called me to say he was struggling. That he would have done anything else. But he can't.

All he can do now is get better. He said he finally understood how I was saying he has to get better for himself and not for anyone else. He said he gets it now. And he's ready.

He can actually recover. He did before. But then we finally were able to move and his therapist retired. He knows now he cannot NOT be in  therapy. He sees that as lifelong now too. He's overwhelmed by what he's done and the money he spent and how he alienated the kids. He is broken. So broken.  But it's good. He can heal. He can make changes and be the person I've seen before. That would be good for the kids, whether I'm in the picture or not.

The question is, do I stick around for awhile and see what happens? Or do I just go and start over? I don't know. I have a whole team of support now. I won't have to go through any of this alone. My uncle, for once, is speechless. I feel like I should write the date down. He warns to tread carefully, that I've heard this before. that's true. But I have also never ever seen it like this before. Committing to a mental hospital is a pretty giant step.

I have a therapist appointment today. It will be an interesting talk.

I do know that I don't need to rush into anything. I feel hopeful. Even if I stick around while he gets help, it doesn't mean I'm saying forever. It doesn't not mean that either. Maybe I'd love him again. Maybe not.

I just have to figure out what is best for the kids and I. At least I know that I can talk to him. He's not BPD. He's just a guy who was acting out and out of control. He's awake now. So am I.

I guess this is where it starts to get interesting.

[livednlearned]

TMD, what a roller coaster for you. It's so hard to have a wheel in every lane, especially when they go in different directions. I hope the best for you.

 Does your T specialize in treating addicted families? Addiction is usually a systemic family issue, not just individual, although I understand the part about the addict working on himself for himself. A T who specializes in addiction may have different advice than one who doesn't.

I would be curious how an addiction expert might inform your choices, especially in terms of preserving the marriage (while helping H get set up for the most success).

[TrulyMadlyDeeply]

I'm not sure about my therapist doing that.

I'm not sure why I keep staying with this man.

His open journal also had a post about how he loved the woman etc. I had already asked about that amd he said he didn't do that.

I pressed him today about it, said he followed the same behavioral pattern of pulling away because he decided he loved someone,  break up, and fall into rage and depression. I told him he's not poly because he is incapable of loving two people at once. That he ignored me amd pulled away. I read in his journal that he actually hated me for awhile there. That was hard.

He denied it. I told him my gut just said it fit the pattern. He continued to deny. I apologized for accusing him of lying.  He let me.

The youngest told me today that he would feel sad and relieved if we went back home. He said it's too much at once. This evening,  he came down amd asked if we could talk. He has never straight up asked. He's always asked to go on a walk, and then would talk.

He was just sad. Said he didn't want to not see dad or have dinner with him. He said he dreamed last night that we got divorced and moved far away.  He sobbed.

I can't figure out what I want.

I told him today that I need him to close his venmo account. I need him to sign a doc stating I can take the kids back home so I don't have residency hanging over me.

I also said I need my own bank account so I can save up when I work, that i'd treat it as a vaca fund when things felt good.

I mentioned finishing my degree too. With my experience I don't NEED it but I should finish up. I need time to look into that too.

He agreed.

I'm just mad. All evening I've been mad. I found my garden plans that I worked on while recovering from his affair news and felt so sad about leaving my garden too. I found where I wrote out paint colors for the last house. And I'm mad about being here. All the time it takes to move in and sign kids up for school and arrange all that stuff. Time away from my writing and goals.

Now I have hours worth of phone calls each day.  I'm dealing with kids upset about dad and not knowing what lies ahead. And I'm trying to keep working on my site, while picking up freelance work on the side, while still making all the meals, doing laundry,  household stuff,, taking kids on walks or bike rides and helping with elearning. Being available. Trying to find housing.  Find time to get the rest of my std test but its an hour away.

It's just so much for me to do in a day.

Part of me is interested in asking for a separation.  Where we leave until the end of the school year and see what we think.

I just don't think he can do this on hisown.

The other part of me says to bide my time. I can start working for the other place and save up.

My therapist said I have it together. She complimented me and said she sees me as one of those women who will end up a big success and have to pay their spouse money in divorce. 

She said I have to decide what I want in ten years. Is it really with someone who doesn't put me first? Can he change?

He brought up again how much he hated how I dressed back in 2016. He told me i dressed like his grandma.  He said he just can't tell me anything he doesn't like about me or I crumble. I said i didn't hear anything he liked about me.

 I'm petite. Slim. We didn't have money for clothes for me then, but I wore the loft shirts, not the foofy ones, and wrap dresses. He wanted me to show off my body and wear Charlotte Russe and forever 21. I said i wasn't comfortable with that at my age, I was 36. He said it didn't matter.

And that hurts all over again.  I was chased down by a bar owner two years ago because he thought i was underage. I don't dress like his grandmother.  He said before he didn't mean it but brought it up again about how he just hated what I wore then. Um, it's not different now except for skinny jeans.

He became hysterical yesterday whwn he mentioned how his T said alimony is one year and i said it goes by length of marriage too. And a bunch of other stuff it looks like, like degrees he got and me Taking care of the kids, and affairs!

He sobbed about being poor all over again and flipped out. Just lost it. I yelled and said i couldn't believe he doesn't think im worth more than a year! He backed down, calmed down, and agreed.

I'm calling lawyer in home state tomorrow to see how it works there. Everything was about his career. And i have his written pages saying he had me check into a mental hospital 15 years ago so he could use porn. That he physically abused son amd i.

That has to count for something

Anyway.  Its so late and I can't sleep. Lots of typos since contacts are out. My mind won't turn off.

Why am I afraid of leaving? Is it the kids fragility right now? Feeling like he'll kill himself if i go? Worried about how ill afford everything if he doesn't pay up?

But what are the chances for his success? To not cheat. To not have to do this again.

Stay or go. Separate?

He has appt with place to develop plan for his sex addiction.  Hes finding out about inpatient.  He may be gone a week or just weekends for a bit.

Kids and I would like that. It would help me get ahead too, writing wise. My website is coming along really well. Wrote 6000 words last weekend between client work and my site.

It'll be worth it.

[worriedStepmom]

I agree with your therapist.  I think you will be a success story.  That doesn't mean it won't be really hard between now and then, but in a few years you will be very proud of where you are and what you've accomplished - regardless of your decisions today.

Keep that in mind when you start to feel overwhelmed.  You WILL be okay.  Your kids WILL be okay.  It's not okay right now, but you are on a path to get there.

I'm glad you are gathering information right now.  You might also want to talk to a local attorney and see if a signed paper from your H giving you permission to take the kids to a different state is enough.  It may not trump the residency rules.

The hardest part of my divorce was feeling like I'd let down my kids.  I'm 10 years out from that, and my kids are happy and well-adjusted.  Therapy has helped them a lot.  Consistent parenting and love from me has helped too.

[livednlearned]

If the question is should you make a choice based on what your addict does or doesn't do, I get the sense you already know the answer.

As to the rest of the stuff, it sounds like regular hardship type issues. Not to diminish those strains, but they are known stressors. Moving is stressful, raising kids is stressful, having less or no money is stressful.

You've already done these things so you know.

You haven't lived independently away from his addiction. Perhaps that's where the fear is coming from. The other known stressors only add to that.

I found it much more terrifying to walk away from a known source of pain into one I hadn't fully experienced before.

One of the things that I did not factor into my decision to separate is the change in my disposition that occurred (and how others responded to me, including my son) when I grew a backbone.

I had experienced adversity before but nothing like what it was like to divorce an addicted BPD spouse (former trial attorney). Working full time, finishing a phd, raising a child, being broke, living far from closest friends/family -- all of this should've broken me and it felt at times like it would.

But I had never before experienced the feeling of doing something right and healthy for myself and my son. Everything had always been in the shadow of hoping, wishing, waiting, watching, and occasionally fighting for my ex to do __________. Not that this will happen in your circumstance but the month my ex gave up alcohol was like nothing I had ever experienced before in terms of verbal cruelty. He saved his best hate for sobriety.

Leaving or staying may be different for you. I'm trying to throw some light on how making a decision that comes from the deepest, strongest, most self-affirming place can start a domino effect that you might not feel until you've made a decision. Which means you have to decide if you're worth it, and that's hard when your significant other isn't treating you like you are.

I don't mean this change occurs like a fairy tale type thing either. I think it's a genuine shift in who you are, who you become, and there is significant pain going through that process. You start to experience life as someone who is fully living it. Not distracted by the pain of someone else's reality and how they want you to perceive yourself through their small sh!tty view.

Wear whatever you want.

The rest of the world starts to respond to you the way you embody the truth of yourself. Unfortunately, I think you have to actually surrender  to that process -- it isn't something you can think or will to happen.