Advice on dealing with STBX's threats

[Jeronimo]

Hi Family, I could use some advice on how to handle an encounter with a potential for escalation.

I am currently in the pre-settlement stage of my divorce.  My STBX has moved back Virginia, where she has been living with her dad for the past 6 months.  She is renting a home that an hour and change away from me.  I had hoped that the move will make the possibility of more equal time with the kids possible, but it is clear she wants to continue to punish me by limiting my time with the kids.  I have temporary every other weekend custody as a result of the TPO hearing in May.  She even suggested to take the dog, who has been with me for the past 6 months and keep him on the same schedule as the kids. 

We did mediation, and at the time she agreed to equal legal, physical, and shared time.  She has since backtracked and is threatening not to sign the agreement.   She is planning on changing my son's school from the one close to me, to the one near her new home, mostly because she likely despised the fact that the mediation agreement granted me temporary physical custody.  I also feel she is impacting his education.  She has decided she does not want him in live distance learning sessions, so he has to watch other kids interact with the teacher and complete the work a day later.  It was actually sad to see him want to be part of his class so much, that he started to talk to the teacher in the recording.

The current dispute involves property division.  She initially rebuffed my suggested that I would need a list of items she intended to take.  She then relented and sent me a list of things I really could care less about losing, so I gave her 40 minutes to get those things when she picked up the kids this past week.  She however took several items that weren't on the list, I simply pointed it out, noted them, and took pictures.  What was more troubling was when she tried to sneak other smaller items and my tool set into her bags and car.  I politely asked her to return, and I probably let my frustration show my mentioning that stealing things wasn't acceptable.  To which she responded that she would call the cops on me for talking to her. 

Fast forward to this weekend, she sent me an email a couple of days ago, which is easier to just cut and paste: "I will be taking the entire contents of my closet, mirrored night stand with drawers, dressing mirror, sofa, end table, toy chest, bicycle, bike rack, charcoal grill, Marisa's wedding dress, Christmas decorations, cast iron skillet, books, art, snow shovel, rake, and any other miscellaneous items that I can't recall."  I offered the opportunity to have us do financial mediation about 2 months ago, but she refused.

I am a little nervous about the interaction.  She stated that she will be arriving with a moving truck, movers, a locksmith, and a police officer.  I have called the sheriff's office to clarify, and they informed my that anyone can call to help keep the peace on a potentially volatile situation, so I actually welcome their presence.  Another officer told me that she has no right to take things out of the home since she abandoned the home and property.  My lawyer, who I am really thinking about switching because of lack of responsiveness and focus on my case, suggested that I put the things I don't want her to take into storage.  That suggestion seems ridiculous to me. 

I replied her email to let her know I was not consenting to the interaction, especially with a TPO still active.  I let her know she can pick up the contents of her closet, and we would have to either negotiate the division of furniture and other like items, or let it wait until settlement.  It was met with "I will take what I want, when I want. This is not up for discussion."  She has threatened to have me arrested if I get in her way, which just seems like a real distortion of cognition.  I have ceased communication, and I'm just waiting in the calm before the potential storm. 

Does anyone have any similar experience?  What would you do if you were in my situation?

I appreciate your time and feedback

[mart555]

Because she moved out her house likely isn't hers (it's the case where I am. She can still be joint owner however). Stand firm. Set cameras. If she wants her stuff I'd pack it and leave it in a neutral spot (friend?).  I'd tell her (and the cops or whoever will show up) that the rest is subject to mediation / divorce court.

Definitely RECORD and DOCUMENT.  Setup cameras.  She could go off the rails and you'll need that as evidence later (for restraining order).  File a police report if she harasses you or you get death threats. Take it seriously.  Be polite but firm. Cover your ass.  

She will drag things on anyways so don't worry about upsetting her.  

[GaGrl]

Is there enough room to move the items she can take at this time into your garage? You could then allow her into the garage but not into the house. Or, you could put them in a storage locker, pay for one month, and give her the key.

Have you discussed with your lawyer being able to change the locks on your house?

When she gives you a date for the pickup, you might want to give the local police a heads-up.

What are your concerns about your lawyer?

[MeandThee29]

Well, this is what I did. He was the one who left although I agreed that we needed to separate. So legally it was not abandonment. According to a lawyer that I consulted, he had a right to come into the house at any time because separation was mutual. She also said that if I left the house, it would have no bearing on a future divorce if that happened. He took his keys. We had also agreed to sell the house. 

I was torn about staying in the house when he came with a moving van. I figured that there would be drama over what was in the house at some level if everything was in the house.  I also didn't want to see anyone in my house that would buy the house because I loved that house. I wanted a clean break where I never met the buyers. And, with working from home and a dog that runs away, I didn't want the disruption of having him get his things and having potential buyers in the house while I and the dog were there. A realtor friend talked this through with me and pointed out that the rental market was tight and only going to get worse. If we moved when it was likely that the house would settle, it would be very hard to find something to rent. We would likely end up in a friend's basement for awhile.

So I went crazy looking at rentals, and we moved out in a matter of weeks. I took everything I wanted and left all of his stuff and what I didn't want. No regrets. There was drama, but very little on the belongings.

Moving out ahead of that was completely the right choice. We got good offers, but there was a delay in settlement. If I had tried to find a rental then, we would have been still looking for a rental months later. It was far less stressful because I controlled it.

[Jeronimo]

I really appreciate all the responses.  GaGrl, I'll take your advice  and pack her things and leave it in the garage.  I have changed the locks and the alarm code.

She is apparently going to show up with a police officer that morning.  If she doesn't, I'll call them myself.  She is in this weird state where she is playing the aggressor and the victim simultaneously.  She was weary of the house cameras last time she came to pick up some items, and she sent me an email saying that she is not consenting to being recorded.  She almost reminds me of the lady in central park with the dog, who called the police on the black guy who was recording her.  Without that recording, no one would have believed him.  I am going to be recording away.

My concern with my lawyer is his lack of responsiveness.  I don't get a sense he knows anything about cluster B personality types and the potential for conflict.  I feel like we need a more assertive approach, so I didn't think his advice to hide things in storage was good advice.  I even suggested Bill Eddy's book, Splitting, but I doubt he had any time or desire to read it.  I'm essentially coming up with strategies by myself, through the advice of my therapist (who is very helpful), friends, and this blog.

This has being and continues to be an interesting journey.  I'm not necessarily a fighter, and still have a lot of compassion for STBX for what she must be going through, but I'm in the fight to protect my time with the kids, and consequently, their well being.

Thanks again for all the responses

[GaGrl]

You may want to explore other approaches by talking to 2-3 other laeyers. Your current L doesn't need to know you are doing so -- call it "peace of mind. "

By now, you have several examples to provide that you can then adk, "What would your approach be in a situation like this?"

Is your STBX formally diagnosed?

[Jeronimo]

Thanks GaGrl. No formal diagnosis.  One of the things my therapist and I discussed was getting a psychological evaluation.  My therapist is very involved and accessible, I wish she was the lawyer.   She is actually going to be talking to some lawyers she knows today to see how they would approach the situation.

[kells76]

Hi Jeronimo;

This stood out to me:

I also feel she is impacting his education.  She has decided she does not want him in live distance learning sessions, so he has to watch other kids interact with the teacher and complete the work a day later.  It was actually sad to see him want to be part of his class so much, that he started to talk to the teacher in the recording.

as something serious.

As you check out a couple of other lawyers, who hopefully have more experience with high conflict persons, please bring this up. Messing with a child's education this way is pretty low and unlikely to be see favorably by the court.

Do you have some documentation surrounding this?

Cheers;

kells76

[Jeronimo]

Hi kells76, I appreciate your feedback.  I am looking for other lawyers, it's hard to know how to evaluate if a lawyer is experienced with high-conflict persons.  I am cautious about using the label BPD  or personality disorder.  Especially since she has not been formally diagnosed.  I have documented the issue in my journal.  A friend recommended recording him during a session, but I'm not sure how that would play out.

For an update, the STBX, her mom (likely also BPD, although diagnosed as bipolar), a 2 police officers came to the house.  I opened the door and politely asked the officer if all communication could go through her.  She obliged and I explained that I had put all of her belongings in the garage, and that we had not agreed on division of joint property.  I told them that I offered her negotiation and addressing the issues with our lawyers, to which she replied "I'll take whatever I want, whenever I want."  I printed the email exchange, ready to show the officers, but I didn't need it.  I opened the garage, locked the door to the house and stayed inside.  After the officers explained to her several times that she wasn't allowed in the house without my invitation to remove furniture, because she has been gone for 6 months, she left with an empty U-haul truck and left most of her belongings in the garage.  Her mom walked aggressively towards me, had to be held back by STBX, flipped me off a couple of times, and pointed threateningly at me.   All in front of the police officers.  A little victory in this uphill battle, that I'm sure will only trigger STBX even more.  But, I feel ready and optimistic after reading all the different experiences at different stages everyone on here has been brave enough to share. 

[mart555]

Good for you!

Definitely install cameras.  Be ready for harassment.. and file reports! 

[kells76]

Hey Jeronimo!

it's hard to know how to evaluate if a lawyer is experienced with high-conflict persons.

Give me a minute or so, but I think there may be a thread on the boards here addressing that question. Or another member might be along and remember it more quickly than me.

What I do remember right now is that there's a group called the "High Conflict Institute", founded by a guy named Bill Eddy, who is both a LCSW and a family law attorney. Here's their site: https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/

I'd encourage you to do some research and reading there, as I bet in their articles and blog posts you'll get a sense of what skills and tools a high-conflict experienced L would have.

I am cautious about using the label BPD  or personality disorder.  Especially since she has not been formally diagnosed.

That is actually a wise move. Labels can be distracting from the core issue: her behavior, and especially her parenting behavior.

Dr. Craig Childress' work has been a godsend to me and many on these boards. He's written an article that, while focused more on being a "targeted" (i.e. disparaged) parent, has good ideas on how not to get roped into labels and diagnoses, but to stay focused on issues and behaviors: https://drcachildress.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Ju-jitsu-Parenting-Fighting-Back-from-the-Down-Position-Childress-2013.pdf

Pages 1-2 are good at showing new ways to talk about family issues without making yourself look like the problem, or a blamer, or vindictive.

...

REALLY glad you had the police there to witness everything. Did you get a report, or is that documented somewhere? Yeah, I kind of have a theme: document it!

[ForeverDad]

I am cautious about using the label BPD  or personality disorder.  Especially since she has not been formally diagnosed.

That is actually a wise move. Labels can be distracting from the core issue: her behavior, and especially her parenting behavior.

Court won't view you as an authority to 'diagnose' your stbEx.  I sometimes attempt some comic relief when I write that court doesn't want you to "Play Doctor".  As kells76 wrote, having documentation is more appropriate and more meaningful in court, should you end up there with your remaining disputes.

My ex came with an officer to get her permitted personal possessions.  She also took some extra items but I didn't object.  I recall that we agreed to split some knick knacks we'd accumulated over the years.  My mistake was that I brought them all to an exchange to let her pick her half.  She took them all!  Looking back, I should have held my favorites back just in case.  After all, some of them I'd gotten before I met her.  But back in those days I was stuck in my super-fair phase that court and lawyers didn't even care about.