Everyone on the outside thinks my wife is the perfect mother

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This post was split from elsewhere as it merits its own thread.

I totally relate to this baffled and confused feeling. Here is an example of a type of conversation that happens regularly with my wife.

Her: Can you pass me that book over there?
Me: Uhhh (hesitating for 2 milliseconds as I look for the book she is pointing at)
Her: Over there! (raising voice)
Me: Sure, which one? (there are three books on the table and I genuinely don't know which one she's referring to)
Her: Forget it. I don't know why I even bother. You never listen to anything I say.

I used to get upset about these kind of interactions. And then I'd get sucked into trying to explain to her how she was being unreasonable. Never went well. Now I just walk away and at least don't make things worse. But it's really frustrating and the core problem never really seems to get resolved.

Wow, this statement could describe my wife and most our conversations. I did not realize i was doing it for a long time but I always snap to and try to get her whatever she needs,,, If I don't, I get the eye roll or a whatever and then cold shoulder for the day or a viscous Rant.

I wish i had something to offer but I myself am about to start therapy again to figure out where I am at. Not to hi-jack, But a question to anyone reading this I have 4 children and My oldest is convinced My wife hates her she is 15 and has been thinking / saying this for 3-4 years. My second daughter who is 12 today was scared to death of her mom 3.5 years ago when we had almost of year of constant dysregulation(this was while she was pregnant with our now 3yr old and for about a year and a half after her birth) . Then my wife when told all of this started being overly nice to the girls . The oldest one always tells me it is jsut an act and that when I am not Home mom is not the same. The second one started defending her mom as she brought her in close and I would have conversation with my BPDw about going to therapy for her anger and then the next day my then 9-10 yr old daughter would pull me aside and tell me that her mom is not crazy and does not need help and that everything is OK dad. So my wife was conditioning her to stick up for her because I would ask her to go to therapy. Now 2-3 years later and I have been trying to tolerate it and did get her to go to therapy but each time once a therapist would bring up something like BPD or Anger issues, she would quit going . The last one did seem to help her for a bit but then she made excuses to quit going...

My question is I know that we a SOs and adults can understand this but I am seeing her do this with the older three kids a lot. she tells them to do something and then if there is  2 MS of delay she immediately goes from Asking to yelling why don't you listen and do what we say  and then will say something about everyone in the house being lazy and I  will just do it myself! I am not sure how the kids can understand all of this ? My Mom who knows the situation and has staying out of it for over a year called me this week to let me know that even though the Wife has seemed to change when I am around that both of the Girls have been telling her that when I am not home  or nto around their mom says stuff like this and goes in the other rooms and mouths things to the Three yr old(who is apparently her support) like I am so glad your so perfect and I hope when the other kids grow up they have kids that treat them the way they treat me and disrespect me, but she has said it so that the other kids can hear her. And now the one that turned 12 today, apparently hates being around her mom again and has written in a journal that she shared with the 15 yr old that her mom is acting like she did when she was scared of her a few years back.

I am at a loss on what to do. I have pre-paired my self mentally and emotionally to a degrree that she could up and leave me at any time or that to protect the kids I would have to file , and I was always scared she manipulated all the kids into siding with her, but it sounds like they are seeing through her stuff.

We had a bit of a blow out for the first time in a while where I did not just let her bad behavior go this past Saturday and she left the house and took the 3yr old. Luckily the 15 yr old was the only other one home and was in her room with her airpods on and did not hear it. But when the wife left she took the 15yr old with her and out to eat. I found out form my mom and from my 15yr old that the wife took the 15 year old out and told her all the details of our fight and that we were getting a divorce and that if we do her and her siblings would only see their dad every other weekend. My 15 yr old told me she did not care if we stayed together and that she would not live with her mom and she told me the 12 yr old felt the same way but that she the 15yr old would not want to have to say that in front of her mother because she doesn't want her to hate her any more than she already does.

I assured her that would not happen and if some separation were to occur to just know that I love her so much and would not let them be taken away from me more than half the time. I keep a journal of some of the stuff I see .. two years ago I kept a daily journal of it and had videos and recordings to back up all the illogical and crazy things that were going on so I think if it comes to it I would have alot of evidence about the things that have gone on and would call alot of it emotional abuse. The problem is everyone on the outside thinks she is a perfect mother because of all her facebook posts and all the things she talks about doing with the kids even though every time they go somewhere or do something the kids usually have as many negative memories about rants when they are out as they do of any fun she has with them.

Same goes for  Vacations I cant think of one where at some point her negativity or stress form the trip did not causes at least one large terrible memory for everyone involved. We are supposed to be selling our house and were looking to buy a small farm that needs a ton of work but part of why I think she is triggering more often now is that we started remodeling our houise 2 months ago.. I did all the floors and paint and trim and landscaping and had carpet installed this past week on the second floor. and the stress has caused a lot of issue. I no longer want to buy the house we are looking at it because it needs rehabbed and will be a mess for at least 6 months because we plan on doing the work. and if she is going to trigger I don't even want the kids around that.


I am not sure what todo at this point to protect me or the Kids. I have a therapist I went to a while back when we were in the thick of it and that help some, but I just want to protect my Kids and or make her see what she is doing to them? But I am not supposed to know the things they shared with their grandma and when we were having big problems their Grandma was their safe place where they shared alot and I made the mistake of Telling my wife at the time how the kids felt about her which just made things worse when I was trying to reason with her to get help. But it seems you cannot reason with an unreasonable or illogical person?

Sorry I went back and started think about this post and I am all over the place. I think I am more upset than I thought I was and just needed to vent sorry for that. But I have been reading onhere for the last week again alot because so many of your stories help me realize that I am not alone and that others are making things work. So thanks for letting me rant.

[Serenitywithin]

This post was split from elsewhere as it merits its own thread.

I totally relate to this baffled and confused feeling. Here is an example of a type of conversation that happens regularly with my wife.

Her: Can you pass me that book over there?
Me: Uhhh (hesitating for 2 milliseconds as I look for the book she is pointing at)
Her: Over there! (raising voice)
Me: Sure, which one? (there are three books on the table and I genuinely don't know which one she's referring to)
Her: Forget it. I don't know why I even bother. You never listen to anything I say.

I used to get upset about these kind of interactions. And then I'd get sucked into trying to explain to her how she was being unreasonable. Never went well. Now I just walk away and at least don't make things worse. But it's really frustrating and the core problem never really seems to get resolved.

Wow, this statement could describe my wife and most our conversations. I did not realize i was doing it for a long time but I always snap to and try to get her whatever she needs,,, If I don't, I get the eye roll or a whatever and then cold shoulder for the day or a viscous Rant.

I wish i had something to offer but I myself am about to start therapy again to figure out where I am at. Not to hi-jack, But a question to anyone reading this I have 4 children and My oldest is convinced My wife hates her she is 15 and has been thinking / saying this for 3-4 years. My second daughter who is 12 today was scared to death of her mom 3.5 years ago when we had almost of year of constant dysregulation(this was while she was pregnant with our now 3yr old and for about a year and a half after her birth) . Then my wife when told all of this started being overly nice to the girls . The oldest one always tells me it is jsut an act and that when I am not Home mom is not the same. The second one started defending her mom as she brought her in close and I would have conversation with my BPDw about going to therapy for her anger and then the next day my then 9-10 yr old daughter would pull me aside and tell me that her mom is not crazy and does not need help and that everything is OK dad. So my wife was conditioning her to stick up for her because I would ask her to go to therapy. Now 2-3 years later and I have been trying to tolerate it and did get her to go to therapy but each time once a therapist would bring up something like BPD or Anger issues, she would quit going . The last one did seem to help her for a bit but then she made excuses to quit going...

My question is I know that we a SOs and adults can understand this but I am seeing her do this with the older three kids a lot. she tells them to do something and then if there is  2 MS of delay she immediately goes from Asking to yelling why don't you listen and do what we say  and then will say something about everyone in the house being lazy and I  will just do it myself! I am not sure how the kids can understand all of this ? My Mom who knows the situation and has staying out of it for over a year called me this week to let me know that even though the Wife has seemed to change when I am around that both of the Girls have been telling her that when I am not home  or nto around their mom says stuff like this and goes in the other rooms and mouths things to the Three yr old(who is apparently her support) like I am so glad your so perfect and I hope when the other kids grow up they have kids that treat them the way they treat me and disrespect me, but she has said it so that the other kids can hear her. And now the one that turned 12 today, apparently hates being around her mom again and has written in a journal that she shared with the 15 yr old that her mom is acting like she did when she was scared of her a few years back.

I am at a loss on what to do. I have pre-paired my self mentally and emotionally to a degrree that she could up and leave me at any time or that to protect the kids I would have to file , and I was always scared she manipulated all the kids into siding with her, but it sounds like they are seeing through her stuff.

We had a bit of a blow out for the first time in a while where I did not just let her bad behavior go this past Saturday and she left the house and took the 3yr old. Luckily the 15 yr old was the only other one home and was in her room with her airpods on and did not hear it. But when the wife left she took the 15yr old with her and out to eat. I found out form my mom and from my 15yr old that the wife took the 15 year old out and told her all the details of our fight and that we were getting a divorce and that if we do her and her siblings would only see their dad every other weekend. My 15 yr old told me she did not care if we stayed together and that she would not live with her mom and she told me the 12 yr old felt the same way but that she the 15yr old would not want to have to say that in front of her mother because she doesn't want her to hate her any more than she already does.

I assured her that would not happen and if some separation were to occur to just know that I love her so much and would not let them be taken away from me more than half the time. I keep a journal of some of the stuff I see .. two years ago I kept a daily journal of it and had videos and recordings to back up all the illogical and crazy things that were going on so I think if it comes to it I would have alot of evidence about the things that have gone on and would call alot of it emotional abuse. The problem is everyone on the outside thinks she is a perfect mother because of all her facebook posts and all the things she talks about doing with the kids even though every time they go somewhere or do something the kids usually have as many negative memories about rants when they are out as they do of any fun she has with them.

Same goes for  Vacations I cant think of one where at some point her negativity or stress form the trip did not causes at least one large terrible memory for everyone involved. We are supposed to be selling our house and were looking to buy a small farm that needs a ton of work but part of why I think she is triggering more often now is that we started remodeling our houise 2 months ago.. I did all the floors and paint and trim and landscaping and had carpet installed this past week on the second floor. and the stress has caused a lot of issue. I no longer want to buy the house we are looking at it because it needs rehabbed and will be a mess for at least 6 months because we plan on doing the work. and if she is going to trigger I don't even want the kids around that.


I am not sure what todo at this point to protect me or the Kids. I have a therapist I went to a while back when we were in the thick of it and that help some, but I just want to protect my Kids and or make her see what she is doing to them? But I am not supposed to know the things they shared with their grandma and when we were having big problems their Grandma was their safe place where they shared alot and I made the mistake of Telling my wife at the time how the kids felt about her which just made things worse when I was trying to reason with her to get help. But it seems you cannot reason with an unreasonable or illogical person?

Sorry I went back and started think about this post and I am all over the place. I think I am more upset than I thought I was and just needed to vent sorry for that. But I have been reading onhere for the last week again alot because so many of your stories help me realize that I am not alone and that others are making things work. So thanks for letting me rant.

[Cat Familiar]

Wow, you really have a lot going on here. 

Your two older daughters think your wife dislikes them and report that she behaves differently when you’re not there.

The younger one is afraid of her.

She uses the three year old for her emotional comfort.

She has pulled the plug on therapy when her issues were beginning to be addressed.

She has confided in the 15 year old the details of a recent argument and has said there will be a divorce in the future and that you would only see the children on an extremely limited basis.

She makes outings with the kids unpleasant as well as wrecks vacations with her out of control emotions.

You’re in the midst of a remodel, which you think adds to her stress, and you’re uncertain if you should pursue the purchase of a farm, because it will involve several months of rehabilitation.

It’s good that you’re journaling and will be seeing a therapist. Have you considered having your older daughters go to therapy?

[Serenitywithin]

Yes cat, the daughters did do some therapy when all this started a couple of years ago with same t I went to and she had to tell them that anything they said would not be repeated to their mother.

We went to same t as the wife’s first. She was the one that first brought up bpd and told me after some research that I thought it was a mild case but she said what she had seen in couple sessions and in session alone with her that it was worse that’s I thought it was.

I am going back to that same t and told my daughters I would make them appointments if they wanted earlier this week. I did not go into why they may want to talk to someone but just let them know I was here for them.

My wife as per normal is acting like the big fight did not happen.  I just wish I could shake her and wake her up to how irrational all of her actions are when she gets in a funk.  I appreciate you taking the time to reply, venting ahead of getting in with t helps.

[Cat Familiar]

I agree. It’s good to get your ducks in a row prior to a therapy session so that you can make the most of it.

Here’s an overview of  BPD

Sadly, there’s not much you can do to get your wife to see the light. Therapy can help, but only for individuals who commit to the process, and it doesn’t sound like your wife wants to be self-reflective.

That said, there’s a lot you can do to mitigate the damage her disorder can inflict upon your family. You’re doing therapy 

In addition to that, there’s a lot of reading material here and videos that can help with strategies to make life more peaceful and to lessen the impact of her dysregulated emotions.

And keep posting. Writing about it helps, and you help others who read your account.

[Notwendy]

I think it may help to keep in mind that BPD affects the most intimate relationships the most, and it occurs on a spectrum. Someone who isn't severely affected may be able to hold it together for aquaintances and friends but not with immediate family. So it makes sense that people on the outside may not see it as their relationship is less of a challenge, the pwBPD is not as emotionally vulnerable or connected as strongly to them.

What is happening with your daughters is also a part of this. A person with BPD has poor boundaries and sees children, family members as an extension of themselves. Relating to a young child is different than to a teen. Teens are expressing autonomy at this age. This can feel threatening. Also, teens now have the capacity to become emotional caretakers in the relationship. Poor boundaries may be a reason your wife is confiding TMI in them, as well as triangulating with them. Rather than see this as being personal to you, it may be a result of the dynamics between family members when one has BPD.

How your daughters feel is similar to how I felt at that age with a BPD mother. I felt she hated me, and at times, said I hated her too. That's pretty shocking to say. I don't feel this way now as an adult, but then, I didn't understand BPD or even know about it. It was how I interpreted her behavior. Also the teen years are a time of differentiating, and fluctuating hormones and emotions. Teens do get mad at their parents and say things in the moment.

But I think it's important to not invalidate your daughters. At 15 I knew my mother's behavior was not appropriate at times, yet, she would blame me for it and also I would be reprimanded if I said anything about it. My mother would also disclose marital issues with me--including TMI. This is inapropriate and abusive but it was also a result of her having a mental illness that nobody knew about.

Rather than consider this some character flaw or mal intent on your wife's part, I would focus on protecting your children from this sort of thing. I am glad they have had some counseling. It's hard to prove emotional abuse and there are pros and cons to separating a child from a parent. But counseling can go a long way in helping your children not take your wife's behavior personally and also someone who can validate their reality. Teens can see what is going on.

[Serenitywithin]

notwendy,

Thanks

I dont consider her attacks personal and I totally get I am dealing with someone with a disorder and try to treat it in my mind as a disease or sickness and I said "I DO" in sickness and in health. My biggest concern is protecting the kids from the behavior when she tried to turn he kids against me or get the m to side with her I know it is her attachment issues and then need to feel like the situation is not her fault. But my 15 years old has told me she cant wait to get out of the house and she is moving out the day she is able which breaks my Heart.
I am also worried about the long term effect it is having on the children and their perspective of how relationships should look.  My 11 and 10 yr olds both when mom get upset and starts yelling at the m and then her perspective get BPD skewed say he or she did this or that and th3ey yell back at her that , that is a lie, and then she rages even more for them calling her a liar. I try to raise my kids in a Christian home and they have seen her lie nonstop about little stuff that doesn't even matter and now the older ones are starting to see it, but then they question me and her and the way they were raised because they see nonstop Lies about little stuff but then are told they should never lie?

NotWendy,
 I noticed you said that you said you were raised with a BPD mother and the effects of this seem to differ in every case. I have been trying to justify in mind my mind Staying or leaving this marriage because I know My oldest D has already said that when she has kids in the future she wont trust her mother with them. So I am sitting here telling myself if I get out and can arrange 50/50 time at least my kids could see normal and supportive 50% of the time. But on the other hand that means I would not be there to shield them from it an entire 50% of the time. I see my kids shutting down this last 1.5 to 2 years. They just stay in their rooms and play on the electronics to have some peace and quiet to themselves. I just don't know what to do. Some people who have lived through it with Parents have told me to cut ties and run as far and fast as they wish their nonbpd parent would have done at any point during their childhood. And I do love my wife dearly even though there are times I am not sure she can fully reciprocate at an intimate level in the relationship, So it is really hard for me to figure out what I should be doing?

Heck what is even odd is my wife can see all her problems when other people do them but cant see that she does the same things. Her mother and twin sister both seem to be BPD or other issues. And they yell and cuss and scream at their kids or grandkids and My wife will say she cannot stand to hear them speak to kids like that and even keeps out kids away form her family for the most part. Early on in our marriage before I knew what this was and hearing her rail on her sister and her mom, but then watching her turn and do the same things I made the mistake of saying well your acting like your mom or your sister which brought on at least and entire weekend of oh your so perfect and I am so messed up and we are getting divorced this week when the lawyer opens. I learned before I even knew what BPD was in the last 3-4 years top quit steppign on those land minds, but my kids should not have to learn how to navigate around these things that will get them raged at for not reason.

I also believe it is hard for them because there are days when they can joke with her and she is good and having fun with them and then 2 hours later when something as innocuous as the kids or me leaving a cup sit somewhere we always do throwing her her into a tailspin and becoming pouty and then one of the kids try to joke with her and she blows up at them for being irresponsible and disrespectful to her all the time. She is so unpredictable in how she reacts to things or I should say the same things just hours apart. I think that is part of the reason they stay in their rooms all the time.

I dont know I am just so torn in what to do!

[Notwendy]

I don't know either. My parents stayed together. I don't know what it would have been like if they split, and in their era custody would have been all with my mother.

Your daughters are saying things I said and felt as well. I could not wait to leave for college. I also did not leave my mother unsupervised with my children. They are older now- young adults and understand what BPD is, but didn't leave them with her when they were younger.

I knew she wouldn't hurt them physically but I also didn't trust her. There weren't really any issues when they were little and my father was always there. It was when they were becoming adolescents that she started with the same behavior- triangulating them ( against me too) and enlisting them as emotional caretakers.

I also had issues in my own marriage- but thankfully have been able to work on this, and it involved looking at my own family background, my co-dependent tendencies. One thing I try to role model for my children is that it is OK to ask for assistance, seek counseling if needed.

I don't think there is a one way - or one right way- to do this. Some people choose to stay together and some do not. Each situation is different. Even if a couple splits, the two parents are joined by the children, and will have to deal with each other.

Regardless of that decision, there are things to do that will help either way. One of them is learning the relationship tools on this board as reducing conflict and
drama helps in both cases.

The other is working on ourselves to get support ( counseling) self care.

And helping children be more resilient. Reinforce their boundaries. Counseling helps, and also getting away from it at times. One thing that helped me was that my father's family had us stay with them at times, and that was a break from the conflicts. School was a comfortable safe place for us.

You will have to over function as a parent. It may not seem fair but it's in their benefits. My father ( now deceased) did most of the parenting. As a result, I felt more bonded to him as a parent. This wasn't due to any attempt to alienate me from my mother. Her behavior did that. My children were close to him as well but not with her, and again that wasn't due to her but the fact that he was actively involved with them.

I think relationships with parents are the sum of all these little moments over time. It was a struggle for me to understand his co-dependency with my mother and how that complicated our relationship, but the sum of all things considered, his positive impact is evident and I am grateful for it.

Yes, your wife may be difficult but ultimately I think it comes down to taking care of you and your children, and fostering their resilience.

[Notwendy]

I don't want to sugar coat the issues with my mother and relationships but also don't want to dwell on them and instead, focus on what you can do, rather than what isn't possible- changing your wife.

You do have the right to decide to stay or leave- there are pros and difficulties with each choice and each person has to make the choice that is best for them.

It helped me to read ( as an adult) about the Karpman Drama Triangle as it explained the dynamics in my family. My mother ( and I think people with BPD tend to think this) seems to constantly be in Victim mode. To be in Victim mode requires a Persecutor and so someone had to be cast in that role for her to have hers.

Family dynamics also is in play and families with a disordered person tend to take on roles to maintain balance, so someone had to be Persecutor and that role could vary.

There were several triangles. If my mother was angry at my father, she'd confide in me ( as Rescuer) and father took on Persecutor. But his main role with her was Rescuer, enabler, and she cast me as Persecutor.

One tough thing as a teen is that, she presented our conflicts as mother-daughter issues and me as the difficult daughter. I was blamed for conflicts between us.

One dilemma you have is that, if you step in to "rescue" your children from her, it upsets this dynamic and adds to the drama. Your task is to see this triangle at play and understand it and not react to it. You also can not take victim role with her expecting her to understand your perspective. I'm not sure she can.

This triangle has helped me to understand my mother's behavior. If someone truly sees themselves as a victim, they are not responsible for the situation. They are only defending themselves even if it hurts others ( to them). Often their perspective is a misinterpretation of others, but it's how they see it and they can then lash out, as somehow they feel hurt by the encounter.

It helps to understand this. My mother is elderly now and while I have made attempts to assist her, her reaction is that I am doing something to her. It has helped a lot to reframe things in context of the Karpman triangle as it helps me to not take her behavior personally as I once did.

I think it might help to have an objective party like a counselor work with your kids to validate their feelings and perspective. That person would not be on the Karpman triangle- your wife may see them that way but they are not involved on the emotional level in your family dynamics.

[Serenitywithin]

Notwendy ,

Thank you so much for your responses. I come from an extremely loving and close family with no divorce or issues or abuse I was raised in probably the most stable and supportive family that anyone could hope for which is way different than what my wife experienced and it helps me more than you know for you to open up and tell me how this effected you and your feelings on it.

I see the triangles and how they impact our family, and my wife does to my oldest jsut what you described with your mother in that my oldest thinks her mom hates her. lately she understand that her mom cant change but she longs to be out of the house and she now try's to initiate asking her mom to go do things but she has told me she is just faking it for mom and does not feel close to her and does not enjoy their time together most of the time because her mom just wants to take her somewhere or buy her things and she said it feels so fake like her mom is trying to buy her love. And like you pointed out my wife is always playing the victim card and when she rages at me  if I respond with anything I get the whole "Oh ya I forgot your perfect and no one can get upset around here but you" or your right and I am wrong as usuall... My wife is also always a little unhappy, even when she seems happy she must complain about something or someone. I am learning to just deal with this but negative all the time is also hard to swallow for my daughters and they have asked me why their mother isnt happy.

Something else you said really strikes a cord with me in that I am trying to determine my level of co-dependence! Sometime I feel like I might be, and others times I feel like it has more to do with the fact that I try to raise my kids as Christians and I said in sickness and in health so I am trying to stand firm in my commitments to be a good example to my children. I have even been their bible quiz team coach and last year one of their questions they had to memorize is how does god feel about divorce and the answer is god hates divorce. So if I initiate a divorce I feel like it could make me a hypcrite in their eyes. On the other hand sometimes I feel like if I do divorce my wife, I can show them normal half of the time.

Problem is if a court rules 50/50 or something worse? Now at least 50% of the time I am not here to shield them and engage with them like they need. Right now if MOM is in a mood I can always suggest a trip to the park. or to go on a walk together to get them out of the house. If I am not here I cant shield them like I do now when things are not good? From your perspective would it had been better if your dad gave your normal half the time? Are you glad your parents ultimately stayed together. ( don't answer that if too personal)

I ultimately and praying and researching what will be best for my children, I am just so torn in what to do. And either way I do really love my wife and understand that she has no desire to be hateful or emotional abusive to our children and I think she does love them in her own way. So if I were to leave it would not be out of hate but out of love and concern for my children.

I will say that even though I love my wife I can sometimes use a break, because I do have to over-care for her and over parent to make up the differences. I find myself not only working a demanding job, but working a second job to pay for misc things even though I pull down 6 figures. and then doing almost all of the cooking and alot of the cleaning stuff because it will keep her from stressing so much and keeps things calmer around the house. So I know if I stay I will have to be the one who carries a lot of the burdens. And I will never be aloud to talk about it or be upset or seem stressed otherwise I would be raged at.

So if anyone is reading this I would just ask you pray for me to have peace and wisdom as I move forward and try to make the decisions that are best for my Kids.

[zachira]

It seems to you that everyone on the outside sees your wife as the perfect mother. I was raised by a mother with BPD. The people closest to her often blindly supported her or did not dare say anything knowing that mom was not open to any kind of constructive feedback. Over the years, there were many people who were not mom's friends or people who liked her who saw right through mom's facade of being a good mother to her children, and many of these people were very kind to me, which made big differences in my life both then and now. I hear your frustration in that your wife is at her worst behind closed doors and that she pretends to be a good mother in front of the people she wants to impress. Your wife likely keeps people distant who do not support her facade. I am glad your children have you, and you are in therapy to do what you can to help your children. My father went out of his way to help me when I was a teenager after an aunt took my father aside and let him know that I needed validation and support. You are a very important person in your children's lives, and making changes that will help your children's self esteem and how they do in all life tasks both now and in the future.

[defogging]

I dealt with a lot of the same things you're dealing with.  I ultimately chose to divorce my exPDw because I simply couldn't allow my kids to grow up learning the dynamics in our house as "normal" when they were anything but.

While married, I lived in a world of constant frustration and anger while dealing with the dichotomy between how "perfect" my wife was to the outside world, while treating the kids and I horribly once the door closed.  I shut down, stopped talking to people, did as I was told, and underneath that I hated everything about my world.

What zachira wrote hits home with me.  In the two years since we've been divorced, I've figured out the same thing with my ex.  She paints a facade, doesn't have any true friends, and portrays a perfect image to the world.  The early days of the divorce were difficult as I was still in the FOG, and thought everyone was on her side and believed the stories she spread about me.  I won't lie, it was the lowest I've ever felt.  Like somehow, the world had turned against me and maybe I was actually a terrible father. 

Over time, I've had the same experience as zachira and learned that a few people buy into her facade, some completely don't, and a lot of others just keep their distance from her because after awhile they figure out something is off.  I can't believe how much my eyes have opened to how people really see her, and how people treat me differently now that the dust has settled.  People that I thought were 100% in her camp have approached me at school and struck up friendly conversations, people I barely knew told me they're glad to see how much happier I am now.  After a few "dust ups" with mom at school, I can clearly tell that some of the teachers would rather deal with me than her.

Whether or not you choose to divorce is up to you to decide, I can't tell you what is best.  But I can tell you this as a guy that's been there.  When I was at my worst in the marriage, I was taking everything personally.  She would throw me under the bus in order to protect her public image, and it made me angry many times.  I had to step back and realize it wasn't about me, it was some sort of deep insecurity within her that made her act that way.  If you can, try to understand why she is behaving that way.  It truly has nothing to do with you.  Once you understand WHY they behave that way, it makes it so much easier.

Believe that there are people that see what's going on.  I get it brother, at one point I thought both her family and my family thought I was the "bad husband" even though I was scrambling to keep the family together.  I now know that everyone saw it, my family supported me 100% in ending the marriage, and her family actually supported me a little bit along the way but they kept their mouths shut for her sake.

[Notwendy]

How to reconcile your decisions along with your faith can be a personal struggle. For you, it's the relationship with your wife. For me ( and your children) it's with my BPD mother.

How do I have boundaries with my mother and still "honor my parents?" That can be a dilemma. It is something I want to do, I do want my parents to be happy with me, but the dilemma is -what my mother wants from me is to allow her to be emotionally abusive to me and my children. How can anyone honor that?

A counselor put this in a way that helped me to not enable her. Not enabling her doesn't make her happy, more like the opposite. But enabling her isn't honoring the best of her, it's enabling behavior that isn't good for her or others. If I truly honor the best of her, I won't enable her hurtful behavior.

I also worry about how my children perceive my relationship with my mother. Will they think it's OK to keep an emotional distance from my parent? I hope they don't do that with me. I decided to let them see my own struggle with this- how do I honor my parent while also honoring myself, my own boundaries, and also protect them? I don't think I do this perfectly, it's a work in progress. But what they do see is that- my faith matters, my relationship with God matters and being an ethical person matters- and this is why I try.

They have also seen me stand up for myself, and know they can do this too. My parents expected me to be a doormat. I brought this idea into marriage. I felt I had to give up who I was to keep my H happy. They see now that being a doormat  isn't necessary or even desirable in a marriage.

In all major religions, marriage is a spiritual bond, not meant to be broken, but there are exceptions, and I think that varies in denominations. Some permit it in some situations, some do not. I think that is something everyone needs to work out for themselves.

However, regardless of whether you stay or leave, the self work, the relationship skills one can gain will benefit you as you will be in contact with each other over the children and it will help the children to see these skills in action as they too will be in some sort of contact with their mother. If you decide to divorce, your actions, how you relate to their mother, even if she isn't your wife, also sets an example.

[formflier]

I chose the staying route and often do things that you describe (getting kids out of the house).

Reasons I stayed.  I realized I had far more power that I ever imagined.  If I controlled validation and invalidation as well as strong boundaries, I could change my relationship, regardless of what my wife wanted.

Furthermore I have a great support system (BPDfamily and also a great psychologist).

I had to work through a lot of issues/values with my Christian Faith as well.

I was deliberate about changing dynamics in the house/family so that "by and large" the worst stuff is behind us. 

None of this is easy, we are here to help. 

Can you spend some time describing the rest of your support system?

Best,

FF

[Serenitywithin]

Form Flyer

My support system is my Family My Parents and Grandparents. They know what is going on since they have been extremely close to my kids, and the kids have told them everything. Mom said she has been trying to open my eyes to it for years but for years I defended my wife.

Then about 3 years ago everything got really bad after the birth of our 4th. Pretty sure Post partum enhanced everything That is when she went from semi rocky with my family to sort of having a break. She went fro mwell if your mom cant be the one who babysits the new D then I am quitting work and no one else is goign to do it. to making up incidents in her head about my mom getting my oldest stomach pumped when she was little and not telling us about it and that she is a horrible person, and why would I ever leave my baby with someone like that. (which is weird because she continued to leave the olderst and then next two with her all the time? ) She also had to be proven to that this incident never happened and had to get medical records to prove it. Then her story about the whole incident completely changed like 3-4  times.

Sorry off on tangent. But my Family has seen it all they are there for me even though after I got the wife into therapy I lied to myself about things getting better and even pushed my family away for a while. They are still totally here for me. My Pastor is also a big support for me, He saw us in couples counseling afew years back and after she broke down in sessions and even admitted that she did not know how to love her Daughters to him. She then painted him black for a bit and said why would I go back to him they just want you to divorce me and get me out of the picture. Since then she now loves them again and thinks they are the best people on the planet.

I started sessions with my pastor back up this week one on one as he helped me soo much 3 yrs ago when things went way sideways. I really needed to talk this past week after a big blowout last Saturday. It is also why I have been more active on the site lately. I think that after the wife went to some counseling with two different Ts I tricked myself into thinking things were better. But when I look back for the last 2 years, I think I just let her do what she wanted and I walked on eggshells and over parents, over cared and generally let almost everything go. She, right after stopping therapy started reading all the books the T told her to so I thought she was trying even though she quit T and told me she would go back and made other excuses as to why she could not and I just let it go to keep the peace.

I was looking to start back up with the first T that we went to together and then I went to on my own. She was the first to Diagnose wife and BPD and very Angry. She did help a bunch but after the BPD and Anger issues came up the wife quit. I think she is familiar with the situation but it is expensive. and I have a few other outlets now. My Pastor told me yesterday I need to focus on self care and call him anytime I need to vent so that I am not holding it all in. I am journaling again and keeping track of what happens each day so I can keep a record.

Venting/sharing here also seems to help.

If I were to leave and divorce I make a significant amount more than my wife, and because of this the lawyer I talked to a long while back said I would probably have to settle for 50/50 split time and child support and spousal support for a short time. Calculating the amount I would pay out would really financially dampen both of our situation but My family does have money and have already said they would make sure to help out if needed financially so I am not completely worried however it would be very hard for me to accept money from them. I also do love my wife and do not want to see her struggle, but I know she has never been on her own and has no idea how to manage money or how much it takes to live. I would expect that she would be hard pressed even with a coupe thousand a month in support to figure out how to get by. I imagine she will end up with her 41 yr old twin with the same issues living with their grandma( her twin has never moved out of the childhood home with grandparents with her kid)

I am just confused, and conflicted about staying or going. I sometimes try to picture what life would be like if I could have intimate open conversation with a partner that does not have the issues of my wife. but it has been so long now that I am not even sure what that would look like anymore.

[formflier]

OK..I'll give you the abbreviated version because your story is so similar to mine.

Paranoia  right? 

My wife used to believe lots of things..lots.  Like I had a love child with another woman, introduced her to that love child at a McDonald's play land and then "snuck" the child on my insurance because I named the child my wife's name (my wife has a unique Biblical name).  So...if my wife is sally fields and I name my daughter that..voila...daughter has insurance and is hidden from the world.

I also proved many..MANY...MANY things wrong and like you figured out that the story always changed.

Reality:  A "militant breastfeeder" was in McDonalds and happened to say her daughters name.  I knew I was effed the moment I heard it.  Militant as in...I'm not wearing a shirt..they will both hang out even though even one is in the mouth.  Sigh..

The prescription:  I had to stop invalidating my wife.  That also means STOP proving things wrong. STOP.  I had to STOP investigating myself and providing "comforting" information for my wife.

Hmm...did I mention I have 8 children and we are very religious.  Things went off the rails around 6 or 7.

You need to find a good PhD level psychologist..for you.  Not someone that just graduated either.

I will say that many people "meant well" but out of ignorance did the wrong thing and "invalidated" and made things worse.

I'll hush for now.

What is your initial reaction?

Best,

FF

[Serenitywithin]

Formflier

Thanks for your words. The problem is she has made things up like when we moved into our new house the daughter 2 years old at time had a bedroom with a window in the close t that overlooks the rood of our front porch. When we moved in she said I dont like the window here I am afraid our 2 yr old will try to climb out on that roof. I said ya we will have to put some sort of security device on there for when she is older as there is no way for her to even open the window currently.

2-3 days later we are in the car and she is on the phone with her grandma and starts telling her how the 2 yr old was had this window in her closet and that yesterday she came in her room to find tht the windows was open and emma was out walking around on the roof and she had to pull her back in the room. the wierd thing is that the 2yr old was not even home when this supposedly happened but was staying with my mom while we were moving. That was the first major thing I can remember her making up. I remember not saying anything about it but looking at her while she told the story. It made no sense the 2yr old was not big enough to reach the window. or strong enough to unlock the 2 latches  or have arms long enough to strech to the release you have to hold on each side of the windows in order to raise them or strong enough to raise them if all were true? that was 10 yrs ago.  She started a pattern of lying and doing really small stuff like this. Finally one day I brought it up to her and questioned her about the roof thing becasue she had told the story to several people always slightly differently. I told her I remember the day she told that story to her gma the first time and explained I thought she had a dream that must have been so real and then she raged at me for thinking she is crazy. She insisted it happened even though it could not have and then changed up the story several times as time went on. At some points I thought maybe I was crazy and missing everything that was going on around me? All kinds of things happened when I was home but apparently not looking? so 3 years ago when it all went sideways after the birth of our 4th. When I first approached her I had been putting all of the stuff otgether in my head for years and I approached her about possibly being bi-polar. I did it in a loving manor but that set off WW3. This was before I knew what BPD was.  I brought up several of the stories she had told and things that never happened and the mood swings and un relenting anger and the fact that when I approched her both of our older daughters were apparently terrified of her because when me and the son would do a guy weekend(I also did weekend with the girls) she would rage at them and had cut their blinds in anger. I found out through my parents and grandparents who the girls had been confiding in for some time.

I brought up this rooftop deal during this conversation and she said I never said that I saw her on the roof or that I pulled her out she blamed that story on one of my daughters friends and said that abby had told her that the other daughter was out on the roof. Now theses are people we are close to but were not even friends with at the time and their daughter was no where around our house as our daughters weren't either  because we were moving in? It is nuts? I told her father this as he is a minister and a very close friend and he said I have heard your wife tell that story before about how she had to run out on the roof to grab the 2 yr old?  He know everything else going on and is a confidant.

I said all of the FF to say this. How do I let the  lies and deceit and gaslighting that goes on not just with me but with the kids continue? I could maybe handle it if the kids were not impacted? but they see this as well.

Fast forward to present and since we all (the kids and I) brought this up to her 2 yrs ago in counseling sessions and even her emotional blanket my younger son who is now ten even said that mom lies all the time to the therapist which surprised me because he is always stuck to her hip, she has watched the all out big lies and instead of responding with some made up story about every conversation will say well since I dont know for sure I will just keep quiet. But she still tells little lies about everyday happens ings that dont matter. Like she will drive through Mcdonalds and get a tea and then an hour later tell me she didn't when the cup with the ice in it is still right there on the counter?

I dont try to prove her wrong anymore, but my oldest daughters have asked me why I let her lie when I get onto them for it? SO i have a problem with that and then how much of what is goign on do I explain to daughter 12 and 15. I dont wantto turn them against their mother or tell them she has this disease that wont let her change but they are turned against her from her own actions and words.But the kids now jsut stay in their rooms all the time to keep interaction down I think. which now she always rants about how none of her kids respect her. and then she does things to her new emotional support he 3yr old daughter after making a statement about all the kids being ungratefull or disrespectful like sitting on the bed and telling 3yr old she is so glad she is the perfect child and that she hopes when the other kids grow up and have kids of their own that they are brats who disrespect them as parents so they can see what it is like.

I dont know how not to invalidate those things because I feel they need to be addressed  or the Kids think I feel the same way. so I have started to have very non detail oriented conversations with the daughters . but I also dont want to participate in the emotional incest that she has with them in needing them to support her emotions by telling them too much. I feel like it is a fine line sometimes.

As far as other invalidating my family who are super close to the kids tried to help in the beginning but made things worse so they backed off because they realized it was not helping. they have done a bunch of research and are trying to help her in  validating things but moreover being here for the kids.

[formflier]

Oh dude...I'm reading your story going..yep...been there done that.

One perhaps small detail is that most of my wife's stuff is "mind reading" and knowing what and why other people are doing things.

My wife will admit to what she did but make up wacky stories about why other people made her do whatever it was.

Again..Phd level stuff.  There is so much interconnected stuff going on here.

More later.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Here is my take on the "lying"- which my BPD mother does a lot of.

She doesn't think she's lying. In fact she states she has never lied to me.

I think the term "borderline" comes from being on the border of reality and I think that border between feeling and fact is blurred.

If a feeling seems the same as a fact, then feeling something is the same as it being true.

However, she also lies to manipulate people and the situation. This is different, in this case I believe she knows what she is doing, but somehow justifies it through her perspective ( victim) . If she feels any shame about it, she manages that the way she manages difficult emotions, projection or denial and she can rewrite history. These are all feelings and I think her way of coping takes them out of the lie category.

Because she isn't amoral. She doesn't break the law, or rob banks, or do these kinds of things. Mostly they play out between family members where emotions are more difficult.

If you see your wife's lies as reflections of her perspective, you might respond to them differently and not take them as personally. This doesn't excuse her behavior or validate them. It just helps you with how they affect you. However, they could pose a danger to you in the situation of custody or your work setting. Be careful to document. They can do damage in relationships with others. It's tough, but I think it's a manifestation of their condition, not always bad intentions ( unless someone is sociopathic and that's an extreme situation)

[Serenitywithin]

Thanks notwendy,

I get that she doesn't think she is lying but the kids are at an age where they know she is lying i have problems explaining that to them. Case and point just last evening I took D 12 for a walk and when we got back d15 is sitting in my car waiting for mom to come out and let her drive on her permit.
I got in the house any W says she told her she would take her but now that I am home would I take her. I said sure. D12 says can I go and i said OK but you will have sit in the back and be quiet. D15 has been doing very well with her permit and we were going to be on town roads with low speed limits.
W is sitting there and Huffs loudly then mumbles something. I said sorry babe I did not hear you , she then repeated more loudly that d15 is not supposed to have other passengers in the car yet and it is against the rules! d12 says mom I rode in the care with her driving with you last week on the way to walmart and w responds to her that no  she did not and none of the kids have ever been in the car with D15 when she went driving with her and that it was a LIE. I was standing there when the left last week on this little trip to walmart when D12 rode with them because I in front of the wife told D12 not to be making wisecracks about her suisters driving and that she needed to be quiet while her sister was driving so that Mom would be the only one giving her instructions while driving.  So I responded to the situation by telling D12 that I would check the rule book and verify the rules and that if it was OK that on the next short in town trip that her sister drove me around she could go. She insisted to say but I have already done this with Mom... W ife again said that is a lie. So I finally jumped in and said Babe you did let emma ride while Caitlin was driving at least once because Emma said she has and for one trip I was there to witness it. Then she got really upset and Yelled no I did not and dug her heels and and said this was all just a blatant LIE! I said well it is not and left it at that. I left for 30 minutes to go take D15 Driving. We have nest Cams so I checked them when I got back and after I left D12 had to plead her case because her mom said to her that it never happened. Mom told her on the camara footage. Fine D12 where did we go, she said we went to Walmart and you got upset at Caitlin for missing the turn you told her to take so she had to go all the way down to the next stop light before she could turn in. After D12 gave her facts to backup the statement W did not talk to her anymore then the D3yr who was on her lap for this whole discussion was talking to mommy and mommy said something and baby said no and she said you stop that I don't need the  you arguing with me like the rest of the people in this Family while D12 was still sitting right there on the couch. a couple of silent minutes passed and D12 got up and said I am going to take a shower and get ready for bed.

This morning I am at my Wits end thinking about this and regretful that I did not let D12 come as the rules the wife was talking about are for her next stage license when she is driving by herself that she cant have more than one passenger under the age of 19 in the car with her. Also when I got home I heard W talking to d12 in her room about an incident earlier in the day which we had already been over in that the girls were given a budlight shirt from a friend(hoodie), and i would  never have let them wear it to school or anywhere lese as I would not let my kids promote that stuff, but D15 got it from one of W friends. She let D12 take it this morning when she asked her for a hoodie. D12 wore it all day at school  until 7th hour teacher told her not to wear it because it had beer name on front.  But she was up there lecturing D12 on how disappointed she was in her about the lying and all the lying has to stop and that she knew that she was not allowed to wear a beer shirt to school. I was thinking this is RICH you were just calling all of us liers 45 minutes ago over an incident that we all know happened with D12 riding in the car while D15 was driving which she was clearly lie'ing about or did not remember(having a hard time coping with this being the issue). So I need to get some time with D12 to talk about the fact she is not a lier or Crazy and that the ride did happen ...

So my wife works the elementary and D12 and d15 ride the bus to her building when they get off until her day is finished. She apparently got onto D12 for wearing it and D15 for letting her take it to school and made a big show of it and cut it up and put it in the trash. She came home and told me the story and said D15 was being disrespectful about the whole thing. D12 said she just asked Cailtin for a hoodie and she handed her one she did not know it was a beer one until later in the day. D15 told me while driving she probably was disrespectful to her mother but that she cant stand how she acts one way with her and different in front of everyone else like the perfect mom that she is not. Those were her exact words last night and she said her mom made a bigger deal of it than needed to be yelling at them at the school. I explained to her that no matter how she is feeling she needs to at least respect her mother and not talk to her hateful. she said wel she does it to me so its really hard to not do it. I try but she makes me so mad. I also explained she wasnt allowed to have Budweiser shirts and what not so that I agree the clothes were not going to happen. Then she springs on me she had to ask mom if she could keep the shirt when they went through a bag of clothes some  gave them to see if they wanted any of it. So W knew they had the hoodie? D15 is a ta point where she cant stand her mother anymore and I am worried about her. D12 I think would go  to Therapy D15 has straight up told me no she does not want to go.

I am going to pick up D12 from school today to have a few alone minutes with her to talk to her and explain that she did nothing wrong and that the car ride did happen .I dont want her to doubt herself or feel like she is crazy with no outlets to discuss the issue.

This is where even if I can see what is happening with the Lie'ing that I dont think the kids can handle it as she makes them think they are nuts and make them start questioning reality? I definitely dont want that. But outside of leaving I dont know what to do about it.

NotWendy and ZAchira, It is good to hear perspective from you guys who grew up with BPD mothers I appreciate all your input.

[formflier]

What if you (and others) stopped trying to find "the correct" reality?

What if everyone stopped trying to "correct" each other?

There might be a bigger lesson to teach your kids about emotional intelligence.  If someone obviously isn't ok with objective reality...pushing that reality on them rarely works.

Instead of "pushing"...gently nudging/suggesting that others "might recall" things differently and leaving the door open for her to go through (vice you shoving her through with "reality")..might..mabye..sometimes let her meet you halfway.

A question that I used to great effect.

FFw "blah blah blah...that never happened...blah blah blah"

FF:  "If it did happen, would you be curious about other perspectives?"  or "are you curious how others see this?"

Hmmm...how is that different that what has been happening in your house?

Best,

FF

[Serenitywithin]

FormFlier

I have been doing this when it is just me, but She does not except that the T told her about BPD or that anything is wrong. So what do I tell my kids D12  and D15 especially who are her targets alot. Like last night when D12 asked to go and mom attacked me telling me that is against the rules even though she has done it and it is not really against the rules. I would have let it go but D12 says mom but you let me ride with D15 driving last week. Once one of the children step in one of these landmines she started calling D12 a liar and saying that never helped. I can navigate these things against me, but I WILL NOT let her continue to make the D12 and D15 feel like they are crazy or that their reality is different than it is. So if she calls them a LIAR or denies things that happened and I was a first hand witness to teh event I am not going to let her attack them for being liars

Like I said I have started having some high level conversations with D12 but How do I explain to her that Mom sometimes remembers things differently than us or anyone else for that matter without explaining it deeper? My D12 is super intelligent and will immediately ask why mom is this way. I have no idea what to say other than the truth and explain what I know. But if her mom ever found out about that conversation, she would lose it! When she first heard BPD she looked it up and literally laughed in my face saying WOW this explains so much! This is what you think of me that I am borderline crazy!.. Now I know why you think about me what you do BLAHBLAH BLAH>..

So This is the struggle I can use the tools and I can try to bring her around when it is something between us, But the kids are recognizing the issues more and more now and are becoming withdrawn and detached and then every attack on them like this is hurting them more and more. They do talk to my family quite a lot and my mom said that my W is trying t make me the bad guy in conversations with the girls all the time, but the girls tell her they don't see it that way but they are resentful of me now because I let her get away with how she acts and Lies.

I am pretty torn up about the whole thing at this point and spend allot time on my own like when I am driving somewhere by myself breaking down into tears. I do love my wife, I don't want to leave, But I am seeing less and less options to protect the kids and give them at least a 50% change of seeing normal sometimes.

[formflier]

 

OK...I see so much of me in your posts, the me from several years ago.

First of all...you don't get to "let" your wife attack your child or not.  (please..deep breathing, I'm on your side).

I get it that you "want" your child to have a normal Mom that "remembers" things just like everyone else...I get that, oh boy do I get that.

That's not what you have and I'm so sorry.  That's something you will be better off to stop fighting and start grieving and accepting.

You asked some specific questions and I'm going to point you back to specific guidance I gave you earlier

Find a PhD level psychologist that has been in practice for 20 years or more...and that you have a good fit with, and that is going to be your primary source of support and answers.

Don't "hear" me devaluing in the least what we can do at BPDfamily, yet I want you to understand that we are not a substitute for long term regular in person counseling.

Full disclosure:  I just got off my weekly phone call with my psychologist.  So..I'm doing what I am suggesting you do.

You need good fit AND lots of experience.  This is NOT entry level stuff.

Now...some stuff you can try on for size.

How do you explain it to your daughter?...just say it.

"mommy sometimes remembers things differently."  

Rather than address the fact of the matter, guide your child to an empathetic response.

"Gosh babe...I wonder why Mommy would recall things differently.  (for your part..stay away from the liar thing, that's black and white plus kinda name calling)

Teach your kids to not dig their heals in...but to be "perplexed".  "gosh Mommy...not sure what to think about that."

Eventually you will need to address the LIAR thing.  I think it's important that you change your responses first and also guide your children to a different place.  That may very well get rid of "LIAR"...or reduce it massively.

Very important that you not get "hooked" by the liar thing.  Don't get into a battle.

So..what have you "heard" me say?

Best,

FF

[Serenitywithin]

FormFlier

I appreciate your words. I hear you saying
A. I need Support so I do not bottle it up and get assistance in how I react. Beyond being in here I am about to go back to my T she specializes in PD's which is why I chose her originally. I also have been having regular sessions again with my Pastor who is actually a DR of theory but has been doing family and individual counselling  for 40 years and has told me he has a pretty good breadth of knowledge with PDs and has seen several Borderlines over the years.
                 I have not seen a PHD level Phychologist as My T is not a Doctor. I may look into this.

B,. Try to coach the kids into reacting differently ( this will be the more challenging thing.)
D15 feels like her mother hates her and has low self esteem D12 is so smart that your response of "Mommy does not always remember things the way we do" won't fly with her. She is inquisitive and reads college level books so she is well spoken but emotionally she is still 12 and in turmoil with how her mom acts. Especially when her mom pulls her aside last night and lectures her on how she should feel ashamed of all the lying when she is the one who has been lying. Again Maybe a PHD will have ways for me to help them cope with this. However I would imagine the girls probably need to see one as well and I am pretty sure that me trying to initiate this will cause feelings in the wife that will lead to divorce anyway. She is against it.

She got mad that last night I walked in the room while she was lecturing Emma because voices were raised when I came home. I did not say anything I just observed. but later on she made the comment from the other room that she dos not appreciate me spying on her conversations with the kids. I jsut replied I was seeing what she got in trouble for to see if I needed to back you up. She said yeah right, she said you guys all have conversations without me all the time. ( I was thinking yes because the girls come to me to get some comfort after the abusive emotional cycles you put them through.) But I did not say any of that.

The Liar Thing you addressed, When the kids are saying something that is true and mom says that is a lie or your are lying to the Kids how do "Let that go" the kids were not lying and their sense of reality is firmer than their mothers perspective. Do you tell the kids when mom calls you a liar just drop it? that seems like enabling gaslighting behaviors and allowing mom to manipulate the kids into seeing her side of reality all the time which over time would almost in my mind tell the kids it is OK to not tell the truth when we let her get away with saying things aren't true and then letting her have her version be accepted by the kids who know it is not?

the whole thing confuses me and makes fell like there is no correct answer, however jsut having a place to Vent and be encouraged that others have been through this is very helpful to my current anxiety level about my decisions.

[formflier]

There will be lots of trial and error and evaluation of response for much of this.  (see back to my Phd level thing, you need Major league vice minor)

Please don't abandon your current T or pastor and you may end up with an "and also" Phd to the team.

You and your girls need to stop using the word and related words to "lying".   Adopt "point of view"

Yes you need to communicate with your daughter and it's also true that not everyone gets everything explained to them in a sufficient way that "it flies with them".  

So...let it not fly.  

A big part of growing up is understanding the world is not "neatly packaged"...not black and white...nuance is everywhere.

Yes to keep teaching her about telling the truth from her point of view, don't back down on that at all.

But what do you do when another person recalls things differently?  (now you are getting into EQ and maturing)

"Baby girl...think how frustrating it must be for someone to have a different recollection"  Move to empathy...stay out of the court room/witness stand.

What have you heard from me so far?

Best,

FF

[Serenitywithin]

I am starting to get what your saying beyond the more help needed.

I am a very logical thinker, I am a cloud infrastructure Manager. Meaning I design cloud compute architecture and a very big troubleshooter. Have been techy since High school but was also captain of the football and basketball teams. So I am very personable and not a typical Dry Tech personality.

So I condition myself and preach to the Engineers who work under me to always troubleshoot and step through things logically. What do you know? What do you need to know to find root cause? , and Finally What tool is there to get you what you need to know?

So much of this stuff as it relates to PDs and their Point of view feel so backwards from the rest of my life. In IT everything's is in some sort of logical linear sense. Everything here is illogical and sometimes circular.. Sometimes I have a hard time stepping back to look. I believe I am very empathetic to her feelings and where they come from but the difference in perspective when it comes to reality sometimes is really hard for me to Cope with.

FormFlier, I really do appreciate your perspective and the fact that it sounds like your further along in dealing/Coping with the day to day than I am, I am looking into the PHD level docs today and will look at having a few conversations to find one I can click with. I still have the nagging in the back of my head wondering if this is better for the kids than separate Households. I am trying to keep it all together for now  and am realizing I cant change her or force her to get help, It sounds like your saying we Nons can have more power to control the situation than I am currently seeing! .

[formflier]

So I condition myself and preach to the Engineers who work under me to always troubleshoot and step through things logically. What do you know? What do you need to know to find root cause? , and Finally What tool is there to get you what you need to know?
 

We are virtually the same.  I'm retired Naval Officer.  Commanding Officer of two shore installations.  County Manager after retiring.  Got my MBA.  Love spreadsheets...I love "analysis"...etc etc.

Let me crunch a problem and then tell you I can improve something by 3 or 4 percent...I'm over the moon.

So...here is what you need to do.

Assume you have a new client.  That client appears to speak English, but it's actually a completely different language with kinda "shifty" rules for employing language and definitions.

What you need is to go to "language school' and learn as much as you can about "speaking BPD"  (dude...hold on to your azz...as you peel back the layers, well..think the movie Matrix..close enough)

Switching gears...yes, YOU (and most other nons) hold much more power than the pwBPD.  Yet most "nons" don't know that or are scared to find the limits of their power.

That being said..having power and using it wisely are two different things.  Agree?

Last:  Let me assure you that your pwBPD has no interest whatsoever in the "root cause" of the issue.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I get that she doesn't think she is lying but the kids are at an age where they know she is lying i have problems explaining that to them.

This makes sense and I don't think you can be the one to explain it to them, as this puts you on the "triangle".

This is the dilemma- you want your children to have a moral code. You have taught them that lying is wrong. So now mom is lying, and they can see that. They surely don't understand the larger picture of what is going on, but a lie is a lie and they can then make the leap to " if lying is wrong, and mom is lying, then why is dad OK with that, ( or doesn't say anything).

It also sets up a double standard for them. If I were to lie to my parents, I would be disciplined, but somehow it was OK for my mother to do things I wouldn't do, or be allowed to do. My parents also raised me with morals and ethics. What do you do when you are a teen and you know you should not do certain things and then you are told something you saw didn't happen?

What happens for your children is that they are being taught to excuse certain behaviors if it's family, or someone who loves them. You are in a sense, taking away their ability to recognize the red flags in a relationship "because I love him, or her ".  They are being taught to minimize behaviors that they otherwise would not tolerate, basically question their own boundaries.

I didn't have a name for it as a teen, but it was pretty obvious that my mother was different from my friends' mothers. I think that we have a lot more information available to us about this disorder now and professionals are more aware of it. I would hope that some are experienced with this in the context of families and how to best manage children who are becoming aware. In the grand scheme of things, you want to raise them with the ability to both have boundaries and still treat their mother with kindness and respect, to the best that they can do.

Your pastor seems to be wise- perhaps he can guide you with this.

[zachira]

I think it can be in the best interests of the children for a parent to let the children know that there is a disagreement with the other parent, in certain circumstances in which the child is being mistreated/lied to by one of the parents. For example, my mother's mood swings were way out of control when I was a teenager; she frequently emotionally abused me and I often stood up to her when she did so. My father told me had he had tried to get mom to see a mental health professional and she had refused. He told me there was nothing he could do. This is one of the few times he did this, and I think it helped me to know what was going on. I also think that when there is parent alienation going on, the parent being alienated has to carefully pick their battles, mainly be a good example, yet at times correct important things that the other parent is lying to the child about to alienate him/her. I think we put ourselves in a terrible bind when we have absolute rules for every situation, like parents are not to involve the children in their disagreements, and this should be the case most of the time. If a parent just looks the other way when the other parent is abusing one of their children and does not let the child know that they disagree with the abuse, than the other parent is complicit in the child abuse.

[Serenitywithin]

FormFlier, Zachira, NotWendy,

I really appreciate all of the feedback/advise.

Update, I am feeling much better about the Two older Girls at this point. I have talked to both of them. I had been talking to D15 more anyway and she gets a lot of it and is very voicetrous to me about what is going on and is always wanting to know why I let mom get away with this stuff. But D12 has always been a lot more quiet about it. But I did have a couple of conversations with her recently and now she is wanting to go for walks with me so she can talk one on one daily with me.

D12 After the episode the other night with Mom not remembering something form the week before and calling me and D12 liars when we brought up the event I took FormFliers advise and just told her she was not wrong and she was not crazy but that the event did happen and that I knew that it did, I explained that Mommy remembers things differently sometimes depending on how she is feeling. I also explained I am here for you and if you need to talk about it you just let me know. I think this statement opened the flood gates. I also set her up with onenote form Microsoft so she could have a journal section with a separate password so that it could be private for her to write in.

She told me that the whole mommy remembering things differently and then getting on to her about it happens all the time and she just does not let it bother her anymore. I told her I was sorry she had to feel that way and that I understand, and again I am always here if you need me to talk to. She said sometimes mommy get mad at her or when she is aggravated because D3 is cranky that Mommy makes an angry face that reminds her of a couple of years ago when she was actually scared of mom. She said this about a couple of different things and after each time she said it reminded her of that time , she would do a small body shutter. But now she even asked me to go see a therapist as well.

She also asked me if this behavior or that one gets on my nerves with mom all around the little lies or the over reactions to this or that. She gets a lot more of what is going on than I ever thought possible. So i explained that sometimes Mommy feels things alot stronger than her or I do and that she sometimes overreacts to little things that D12 had brought up. She then went down the road of what happens if you guys divorce, I would a get to talk and say what I would want from a custody standpoint right? I told her she was old enough that yes that would be the case but that I am not trying to divorce mommy she said ya but what if mommy left. SO I reassured her that I was trying to to everything but that. I am guessing D12 who has been told by mom after fights that we were getting a divorce and then telling her that they would be lucky to see me every other weekend. So I am Guessing Daughters are talking to one another for some support now.

Good thing is that D12 is now opening up to me and letting me know how she is feeling where for the longest time she didn't. I am trying to just reassure her that I understand. She said that a few years ago she felt like a double Agent because mommy was making her talk about me and what I was asking her. Because when I first found out about the BPD and how the girls were treated when I was gone I was always asking them if there was anything they needed to tell me about things that were going on and they were very forthright. But then Mom would grill her about what she had been telling me. She said now she understands that back then I was just trying to help. I told her I was sorry if I made her feel that way and she said no it was Mom that made her feel that way. I told her I am here to listen if she needs me but that I do not want her to think I am trying to get her to tell me things about her mom and that I am definitely not trying to turn her against her mom but that if she needed me to talk or had questions about why mom is doing something I would do my best to help her understand or try to feel better about it.

I told her several time's that I want her to know that even though she is now talking to me that I am not trying to get her to take sides in anything, and that I am trying to make sure she is feeling OK. I don't want participate in any kind of parental alienation of any sort, I just want to be here for my kids.

I have not had a chance to be alone with my S10 to just let him know I am here for him and if he ever needs to talk about anything he can always come to me.  But he has never really experienced moms wrath as he was always her Golden boy and never painted him black like she did with the two girls. But when we took the kids to therapy a few years back when we were in the thick of it with the post partem and she was at least agreeing to therapy S10 told the therapist that he sees mommy lie about little stuff all the time so I know this also impacts him even though he is not usually the target of her rage. So I do not know how much he will want to open up of feel the need to talk about things.

So I am getting my first Session with T this week and then will discuss a few things with her about seeing the D12 or getting her in with one of her colleuges.

I am actually anxious about my wife's reaction to me going back to Therapy. As well as getting D12 into a Therapist, because she is going to rage about why we need to see a therapist and then it is because of me and you guys will never let the past go and BLAHBLAHBLAH... She will then start to self blame and then project onto me and the kids . I am afraid it could make things worse and uncomfortable in the home environment in a stronger or more constant way? Wondering anyone else has ever had BPD spouse react this way about you going to therapy?

Thanks for listening.

[Notwendy]

Going to a therapist is a form of self care and it's important. If it's time for a check up, do you not go to your doctor if your wife was upset about it, or would you decide you needed to go anyway. Would you not go to the dentist to get your teeth cleaned and checked just because your wife doesn't like it?

Taking care of your mental health is essential. This is about boundaries. It's not about what she thinks, and if she has a fit, that's on her. She doesn't have a say in your mental or physical health. You do.

Her feelings are her feelings. Don't manage her feelings by neglecting to take care of yourself.

Hang on to that...