Long night...many interruptions in sleep...wife and daughter don't seem to care

[formflier]

I startled awake (perhaps bad dream) about 10pm.  I tried some calming strategies and I considered the wisdom of calling for my wife to snuggle with me.  There has been far more good than bad recently...so I called her on my phone (me getting unhooked and out of bed is a bit of effort, so easier to pick up the cell phone)

I asked her to come snuggle that I was having a hard time/distressed.  She said she would be there "in a few minutes".

I continued trying to focus on rhythm and breathing.  At some point I started wondering..what the heck, where is she.

I looked at cell phone and once it had been 10 minutes...I called, said I was having distress and needed to understand her time line or if I needed to sort it out myself (or words to that effect)...she assured me she would be there in 5 minutes.

I probably let 2..certainly 1 minute elapse and I started a timer...my plan was that if 5 minutes elapsed, I would assume she was not coming and deal with myself...by myself.

After 5 minutes I got up and got dressed, figured I would go for a walk and try this thing my P has shown me where footsteps match breathing and try and stretch out.

I passed my wife on the way out, she didn't really look at me and I didn't speak to her...honestly...I didn't trust that anything pleasant would come out of my mouth.

I felt much better after 15 minutes of walking.  Sat on bed and did some stretching.  I could perceive my wife would "loud talking" while in the bath in our master bathroom.  It seemed she was doing voice to text...I could only make out maybe 1/4 of what she was saying...none of it made sense.

I turned off lights and tried to sleep.

I was dozing/sleeping and there were a couple disturbances with doors being shut or lights being left on.

Probably around 1115/1130 I perceive our little dog scratching at bedroom door and making noise..trying to get out.  I'm sure I was ticked when I got out of the bed...dog ran away rather than going out the door to living room where I guessed my wife is.

So..I hollered out the door for my wife to come get the dog, so I could get back to sleep.  She used pleasant voice to call dog...and a much less pleasant voice to ask me to get back in bed.

I said "FFw, I desperately need sleep, please help me go to sleep by keeping things quiet"

no response even though she is standing in doorway.

"FFw, is there a reason you are not responding to my direct request?"

no response

"FFw, will you please help me get uninterrupted sleep"

she said yes and slammed the door...slammed might be a bit strong...but it was firm.

Perhaps I heard and odd noise or two that woke me up, then at 1 am D23s Doberman starts barking..and keeps barking.  She is apparently in living room outside the bedroom door.

I opened the door and hollered (assumed it was just my wife) to keep the dog quiet and help me sleep.

No response from anyone.

So I got dressed and walked out to try and sort this out.

My wife and D23 are sitting on couch and I don't perceive them looking up or paying attention to me at all...they are staring at laptops.

I had started a recording..since I knew I was pissed, yet was trying to not fly completely off the handle.


FF:  Please go kennel the dog

D23:  That will make the dog freak out and bark more.

FF:  I don't care..kennel the dog, it's 1am.  I need to sleep

D23:  I'll do it but..

FF:  Please do, it's 1 am I need to sleep and the dog is disturbing me

D23:  But the dog will freak out and bark more

FF:  So how do you propose that I get undisturbed sleep.  I've been woken up 6 or 7 times already.  I need to sleep.

FFw:  do you have earplugs

FF:  No FFw..I don't and I won't do that.  I have the white noise fan on high, it's ridiculous for the house to be so noisy at 1 am that someone needs earplugs to sleep...ridiculous.

FFw:  Ridiculous

FFw:  Yes..it's ridiculous. (I looked directly at d23 and said)  Go kennel the dog right now.  (note..the kennel is one floor down and literally on the complete opposite side of the house, so literally as far from my head/ears as possible). 

D23 started moving to go kennel the dog, so I went back and got in bed.

At around 1:45 I noticed my wife getting in bed but was able to doze back off.

Then I hear her phone "ding" really loudly.

A few minutes later again.."ding"

At 2:18 I hear it ding again and I wake her up and ask her to silence her phone that it is waking me up.  She is very groggy and says her phone isn't making noise.

It' dings again as she is finishing saying that.

FF:  There..that's the noise, please silence your phone.

She does't say anything but gets up and leaves the room.

I doze fitfully for rest night.

Around 7 or so this morning I'm woken up by her rummaging around the night stand next to my head.  I ask her what she needs and I would swear she said something about looking for her plastic lips...

I dozed a while longer and now I'm awake...trying to make sense of all this.  I feel like crap.

Nights like this have happened before...but it's been a while...6 months or maybe a year. 

I can't remember d23 ever being involved...I went down to her room around 830 pm to try and do some maintenance and discovered she was asleep so S18 and I decided to do the maintenance later and let her be undisturbed.

I've listened to the recording a couple of times..and I don't detect a hint of sorrow from either person...

This sucks...I don't want "to go back" to this kind of thing being a regular part of my life.  And..what do I say to my daughter, especially if she continues to seem unapologetic..

Best,

FF

[kells76]

what do I say to my daughter, especially if she continues to seem unapologetic..

How much 1x1 time do you usually spend with D23 at this point in her life (she is married... yes? am I remembering correctly?)?

What would it be like to take some of that 1x1 time (in a few days, perhaps; maybe without a sense of pressure, or urgency, but also not a sense of "eh, this discussion can wait a month") and ask some curious questions?

"I was confused the other night... when I asked for X, it seemed like you were Y -- that's how it came across to me. What was going on for you? Help me understand"

Historically, has she been responsive/non-activated with that kind of approach?

I.e., is a "I'm curious/confused... help me understand..." approach effective (for enlightenment/compromise/change) with D23?

...

she continues to seem unapologetic..

This seems important to get clarity about.

What's going on for you: she is coming across to you as unapologetic

What's going on for her: _________________________________

(a blank that needs to get filled in for mutual understanding, and changes going forward, right?)

[formflier]

D23 was married, she lives with us again.  Her (ex) hubby appears to be living with an underage (or was I think she is 18 now) girl.  (in our state if girl is over 16..it's legal)

I would say that I had been spending quite a bit of time with her, perhaps 15-30 min per day of just me and her conversations/how is it going

Then...we left for fall break (she is still in college and works so she stayed at house), exchanged a couple of texts, then for the past week I have a couple unanswered texts.

Since I've been home...a couple of brief "Hey d23..let's catch up soon"

I had planned to do maintenance downstairs in her room and possibly chat at same time when I discovered her sleeping.

So...in the past 1.5 to 2 weeks...the late night "please kennel your dog" is the most conversation we have had.

That is good idea about approach to her..

Best,

FF

[formflier]

This seems important to get clarity about.

What's going on for you: she is coming across to you as unapologetic

What's going on for her: _________________________________

(a blank that needs to get filled in for mutual understanding, and changes going forward, right?)

Yes...and I can't imagine...it's impossible she doesn't know the importance and difficulty of sleep, especially for me. 

A large part of my disability with the VA and social security have to do with multiple diagnosed sleep disorders.

She knows this, however as I said it's been (thankfully) a long time since it's appeared intentional or (more likely) there was intentional indifference to my and the rest of the house's need for quiet.

That I had just allowed her to continue sleeping out of care and compassion for her and she appears to have more concern about the dogs distress at being kenneled...and she is primary trainer of dog...so...kennel should be haven for dog..

Good grief...

Best,

FF

[kells76]

D23 was married, she lives with us again.  Her (ex) hubby appears to be living with an underage (or was I think she is 18 now) girl.  (in our state if girl is over 16..it's legal)

This seems like "not nothing" going on in her life. Didn't they get married not that long ago?

One thought:

So, for whatever normal life reasons, you guys haven't been having low-key chat times lately. This just happens.

To restart chatting with her when the topic is you and your needs... might not be effective. Especially given, if I'm understanding this correctly: she is recently separated/divorced, after a short marriage, from her first husband, who is now living with a teen?

What would it be like if you had a couple of "D23, how are YOU doing" chats with her first? Make sure they are all about her, and you have a warm, empathetic tone. Doesn't have to be "hours of pouring her heart out"... but moments of warmth and support coming from you, without tying in at the end "... and now that you've talked about you, I'm going to talk about me". Don't connect them in the same chat.

Have one or two of those, then bring up the "Remember that one night when the dogs were going crazy? I was confused... it seemed like X was going on"

Anyway, some thoughts about how to proceed in an "effective" (versus a "who is right") way. I would suspect that your #1 goal is that however these discussions go, that there is effective change at the end.

[formflier]

Correct...they did not make it to their first anniversary.

I don't even begin to think I have a complete picture of what happened, but...on the day they apparently both agreed to meet with counselor to discuss marriage issues, he cleaned out their bank account (several grand) and texted her he was done.

Because of a letter from BMV we found out his new address and discovered he took the money and bought a car, the girl was/is (not sure) an employee at his fast food restaurant (he was general manager).

That does't even scratch the oddness..weirdness of the situation. 

I agree with advice on trying to separate talks.

Best,

FF

[kells76]

I'm so sorry. That must have been devastating for her, and of course it impacts you and the rest of the family, too.

Wishing you and D23 the best as you have some good talks together;

kells76

[formflier]

Thanks so much kells76


In may ways, my daughter is a female version of me.  I see the trust that she had in him and was/is devastated by this.  Much of her life appears to be going through the motions and there was no surprise to me that between her school (last semester) and work that she falls asleep at odd times.

They had "been together" for many years, he moved several times to chase her through school and appeared to really want to be with her..until her got her.

I still can't wrap my head around it.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Given that teenagers behave in ways that appear narcissistic, personality disorders cannot be readily diagnosed until adulthood, when brain maturation is complete, it’s no surprise that she got together with an unreliable spouse. I’d put money on the bet that he has a personality disorder. After all, she’s accustomed to that sort of thing and it feels familiar.

I’d be curious what she and your wife were talking about in the wee hours of the morning. Girls often share much more intimate relationship details with their mothers, and speak in generalities with their dads.

As I was your daughter’s age when my ex husband started tomcatting his way around town, I felt devastated, a failure as a wife. He too had pursued me relentlessly and within a month of marrying me, I caught him sleeping with a young woman who had an infant, who was visiting our roommates. Without protection-ewwwwww.

And she was merely the first in a long line of conquests.

Not only was his behavior a huge hit to my self esteem, it also made me question my judgment, and even more, question whether all men were untrustworthy.

It’s a lot to deal with at 23. And that they were high school sweethearts makes it even a more bitter pill to swallow.

[kells76]

it’s no surprise that she got together with an unreliable spouse. I’d put money on the bet that he has a personality disorder. After all, she’s accustomed to that sort of thing and it feels familiar.

My DH's ex is now married to DH's former best friend 

Former best friend (FBF), from what I heard, in high school did the exact same thing -- obsessive pursuit of girls, then once in the relationship, it'd break down. His MO is more over-the-top "validation" of girls/women (to "prove" that he's not like his dad), but it's all in service of inflating his self-image as "I'm an empathetic, wonderful, supportive, amazing person". I think in a way, he had to "catch" the girls in order to have someone to validate... which really meant, someone to be an actor on his stage, in his play about "I'm a wonderful person, now be here so I can validate you".

Not that I'm qualified, but if "someone forced me to" diagnose FBF, I'd say NPD 110%.

Interesting that Cat had a similar experience of the "intense pursuit".

...

It’s a lot to deal with at 23. And that they were high school sweethearts makes it even a more bitter pill to swallow.

You like Gottman... maybe these first few chats with her are extra super helpings of positivity, warmth, and support, to put in her bank. If this was her first serious relationship ending this way... she'll need all the togetherness and love you can give her.

[formflier]

I'm pleased that D23 is still working with my P.  I have some level of awareness of what they talk about.

I really liked her hubby...I was as shocked as anyone.  

He was on some sort of medication for some sort of mental issue (I believe depression).  I was unaware of this until after he took off.

Apparently he stopped taking the medicine and started making weird claims like he was never happy with D23, that she prevented him from following his dreams to New York City, and that since she didn't love him there was no reason for them to work on things.

Now...think of D23 and a female version of me.  She tried to problem solve...she chased..he ran.

He did say he wanted to go to NYC prior to engagement and she (I was unaware of this until after) did exactly as I taught her and expected her to do...she did NOT do false advertising.

My guess is you guys can't imagine me in NYC and I can imagine my daughter there even less.  (it's all about horses and animals)

Anyway...she told him to please go, she would wait, they would sort it out (she had been to africa and he waited..so..same thing)...(yes..horse stuff in Africa...good grief..)

Well..he refused to go, declared it was ok and she believed him...trusted him.

Also...his Mom has been divorced 4-5 times..multiple other relationships that failed.  His Dad has similar track record.  My ex SIL declared he didn't want to be like them, went to church and seemed to be "walking away from that life", yet once he got married...he followed the model.

So..what do I do with that as a Dad...do I chase off people that come from broken homes?  

Not to say this in a prideful...look at me way...but as matter of fact way...there are no divorces in my family.  The weirdest thing is my great grandfather ran a cousin off the farm for being a loafer and he was weird.  

"Everyone" in the farm town warned his wife (the guy that gone run off) not to marry him that he was no good, she married him anyway and they stayed together over 50 years until he died.

She is very open about it being difficult at times...but...they stayed together and were successful, they just were cut out to be farmers.

Heck..my Dad wanted to live on the farm and farm full time but his Dad said no...because he wasn't married yet.  Farming isn't for unmarried people (I can still hear Grandpa saying this)...then Dad met my mom and chased her several states away to marry her...then I showed up!

Anyway...everyone in my family, include me..is very conflicted about the entire thing.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

D23 had a couple of "relationships" where she talked to guys...but really never "dated" anyone except her ex.  She is very loyal.

It didn't appear to me that her ex did either...

Not ideal, but they both seemed happy with it.

I never got one vibe that he was a  "player"...

I knew lots of them on the football team...also knew lots of guys that "claimed" to be but the "gun camera footage" always fell short of what their mouth was saying.

I dated a lot and was pretty fearless...would never back down from "betcha can't get a date with her" (I usually could)...not in a player kinda way but "Hey..you seem cool, I'd like to take you out" 

I had lots of "girl friends" that I had been out with once or twice and then "friendzoned" as I went on with life.

I say all this to say that I would have thought I could have picked up a vibe...so I'm not trusting my judgment now.

OBTW, it took me months to ask out FFw.  All of my buddies realized there was something different about my attraction to her, because I was always hanging around...but was scared to ask her out.

Sigh...

Best,

FF

[kells76]

I really liked her hubby...I was as shocked as anyone.  

He was on some sort of medication for some sort of mental issue (I believe depression).  I was unaware of this until after he took off.

My sister's and her ex-H got married when they were similarly young, ~22-23 or so. We liked him, too -- my DH especially clicked with him despite the age difference. Funny, exuberant, smart, excited. Seemed to share core values. He did chain smoke but seemed to be trying to kick it.

They were married ~3 years and I regret not being more "pushy" with my sister when I started hearing weird stuff from ex-BIL: memory gaps, spending time with strangers in hotels on work trips, starting to experiment with drugs ("to speed up the emotional work/have a breakthrough"), a story of her acting really out of character with him, but me not asking for more background.

He did a bunch of shrooms a few years ago, had a psychotic break, was missing for almost a week, and when he turned up >100 miles away seemed to have a different personality.

There was a lot of stuff under the surface, needless to say. This despite the fact that his parents are still together and they were all raised "wholesomely on the farm" etc. We suspect emotional incest with his mom and also DID/MPD type stuff at play. Needless to say he and my sis are not together any more.

Sometimes you just can't know ahead of time.

Anyway...everyone in my family, include me..is very conflicted about the entire thing.

Understandable. The "BIL" that we saw, we liked. I miss whatever personality it was that'd show up. But it sounds like "he's not there any more".

I view any ending of a marriage as a tragedy and not the way things were supposed to go, if that makes sense.

[kells76]

I say all this to say that I would have thought I could have picked up a vibe...so I'm not trusting my judgment now.

Exactly. We were all >2 years into doing casual family stuff with ex-BIL before some "weird" bits started coming out, and even then I at least "rationalized" some of it.

I wonder about myself, if I could pick up on MPD/DID type vibes from someone now, after that experience.

Maybe you'll be able to do some tuning of your "vibes receptor" after this. New data to put in there.

[formflier]

  had a psychotic break

P has not talked to the ex, but has obviously gotten insight from D23 and me. 

She uses this term sometimes to describe the massive change.

Yes it's a tragedy and I also kinda "hear the bullet whizzing over my head"...because I could not imagine this if kids were involved, it's bad enough with my daughter.

Also hope this does help "change my meter".

Best,

FF

[kells76]

because I could not imagine this if kids were involved

That is a blessing. You've probably heard enough from Family Law about how it can go.

Again, I'm so sorry for you guys... it's incredibly shocking and devastating.

kells76

[formflier]

  You've probably heard enough from Family Law about how it can go.

 

Yes...we all have our own stories and I'm not a fan of my "hard road" (including last night), yet it does help to have perspective.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Kells76

I had a warm...15 minute conversation with D23..all about her and got caught up on  some stuff with her.

I'll try to make a couple other "deposits" over the next few days, hopefully by then I'll be able to think more clearly about how to handle "the issue".

Best,

FF

[kells76]

 

Good to hear. Even without "the dog stuff", I bet she still needed that. It means a lot to daughters to have dads who can not always bring "their stuff" into a convo.

[kells76]

I'll try to make a couple other "deposits" over the next few days, hopefully by then I'll be able to think more clearly about how to handle "the issue".

This is a win-win:

She gets lots of warmth, support, and understanding.

You get some time to see what insights "future you" has about what's really important, how to tackle stuff, new ways of viewing solving the issue.

more 

[Notwendy]

FF- while I understand that it is hurtful to think your wife and D aren't concerned about your well being, I think it is helpful to also understand the drama triangle and how that seems to be at play in these kinds of interactions. I found that asking for help or assistance with my own feelings or discomfort somehow results in a paradoxical response. It was misinterpreted somehow.

I think if someone takes victim perspective ( and I think pwBPD tend to that)- it's not in their nature to change roles. When you are in discomfort ( for any reason) and ask for help- it requires they come out of victim perspective. I don't know if that is possible. True empathy doesn't seem to be a strong point. In addition, if someone can't handle their own uncomfortable feelings, bringing more into the situation doesn't help.

For me, if it is something essential to my own well being ( like sleep of course) I feel I have to take complete control for that and not make it contingent on the behavior of a disordered person. One example of this is why I don't stay at my BPD mother's house when I visit her, even though there is room there. There were times when she was distressed and did not let me sleep. While issues with my H were less severe, he also didn't react with empathy when I was not at my best- he seemed to think I was rejecting him somehow.

It's natural to feel hurt by this behavior and it certainly seems unfair. Considering it's your home, you would expect family members to care about your need for sleep. But I don't think this is personal. I think it is part of how your wife interprets things. As to your D, she may just be hurting emotionally that she isn't at her best at the moment.

Remember this :HALT. Hungry, angry, lonely, tired. When we feel any of these, we are not able to manage the drama and often add to it, whether intended or not. I know this has to be hard in your family home with lots of people and pets but there needs to be a place of quiet where you can sleep. Even if you have to build some sort of extension, insulate the walls, noise cancelling machines- I don't know what it takes, but sleep is essential- it's a boundary that needs to be maintained.

I love it when everyone is home for holidays and when they are home, the house is more noisy and busy. Could it be that having your D home is a sort of transition for your wife? Also if D is upset ( which is understandable) it brings more emotions into the home as well. Maybe this upset is due to this kind of transition. Now there's a new adjustment for everyone. It's also an opportunity for you to bond with your D. But also with more noise in the house, you might need some sort of man cave.