She wants to change the mediators

[Skip]

I received an email from my W stating that she would not agree to ANY changes in the mortgage (this is the mortgage that is expiring in 10 days time, and the one that she said she would categorically NOT be joint signature to a replacement mortgage last week) without first discussing with a mediator.

This comment and others that you have made sound like she is seeing the mediator as more of an arbitrator. I've thought this before.

I don't think suggesting collaborative divorce needs to be upping the ante - it could be sold as a more fair and level playing field for her and structure and a timeline for you.  

[Skip]

Question: Why do you want her on the mortgage?

Question: Why do you want her on the mortgage?

[Enabler]

I can see the pros and cons of her being on the mortgage from my perspective. I suppose it sits better from a financial guys point of view where assets and liabilities are packaged together. The house was bought with a mortgage 10years ago, that should have been both of our responsibilities to service and more importantly be concerned about. There is a process for extracting ones self from these joint decisions, walking out, barking “put it on the market” is not it. She may have rejected “this life” but there are 4 others here who have not. If she wants to decouple herself from adult choices she has made as an adult there’s a process for that.

I’ve gotten comfortable with the risks I face being sole name on the mortgage hence going through the formal application  process today.

[Enabler]

This comment and others that you have made sound like she is seeing the mediator as more of an arbitrator. I've thought this before.

I don't think suggesting collaborative divorce needs to be upping the ante - it could be sold as a more fair and level playing field for her and structure and a timeline for you.  

I don’t disagree with this. My W recruits people. I wonder if she felt she couldn’t recruit the previous mediator or had done things to discredit herself in front of the previous mediator. She wants to wipe the slate clean.

Whether the new mediator is going to wonder how we got to this point and what occurred along the track I don’t know... and what the response would be if they ask W!

[Enabler]

FF,

I think there’s a difference between following blindly, reacting and being observant.

There’s times when I have gone in my own direction, there’s times when I’ve watched my W from a distance to see what she’s doing and there’s times when I’ve moved to where she’s told me to be.

I’m not sure in all circumstances it’s prudent to ignore the person waving the gun around.

I’m not allowing  her to determine the outcomes, I’m working with the choices she’s making on how we get there. If she was able to determine the outcomes (and I was letting her do that) I doubt she would be frustrated with the path she was on. I really can’t help her lack of satisfaction with the outcomes of her own choices.

[Skip]

Let go of her.  All these things you worry about are your worries and yours alone. The minute you stop thinking about these issues, they end.

No one is keeping a list.

Whether the new mediator is going to wonder how we got to this point and what occurred along the track I don’t know... and what the response would be if they ask W!

The new moderator won't care. He/she may ask what you would like to see different in the new moderation to get a read on you guys, but that's going to be it. The previous history is moot.

If you can't settle in mediation, this goes to collaboration or trial, all the mediation history is moot.

I think you will find it amazing about how little the family court system cares about any of the transactions between you and you wife, or who was punctual, or who is smarter, or who has the moral high ground.

This is no different that the family store being foreclosed. The creditors just sell the assets - the gold watch gets sold and melted down - no one really cares about the story.

[once removed]

I think there’s a difference between following blindly, reacting and being observant.

There’s times when I have gone in my own direction, there’s times when I’ve watched my W from a distance to see what she’s doing and there’s times when I’ve moved to where she’s told me to be.

I’m not sure in all circumstances it’s prudent to ignore the person waving the gun around.

I’m not allowing  her to determine the outcomes, I’m working with the choices she’s making on how we get there. If she was able to determine the outcomes (and I was letting her do that) I doubt she would be frustrated with the path she was on. I really can’t help her lack of satisfaction with the outcomes of her own choices.

all of this outsmarting your wife, three dimensional chess, serves the purpose of staving off narcissistic injury (ego wound), abandonment depression, and, ultimately, the detaching process.

I'm not sure why you've decided to make up a reasonable narrative for my W and re-framed me as being unreasonable and condescending

im not sure why you dont see it. everyone is telling you this.

youre playing games, NL.

the problem is, navigating family court isnt a game. the real life consequences, for everyone involved, arent a game. whats coming, if you dont get serious about the reality you are facing, isnt a game.

i dont think anyone, long involved here, takes any joy in trying to tell you what you are doing, have been doing, at every step, is not only destructive to your family unit, which is changing, but self destructive. you are being the guy they write about in these books about high conflict divorces. its not too late to take another path.

you still have time to turn it around, to reach for the best case scenario for you and your daughters.

[Enabler]

Let go of her.  All these things you worry about are your worries and yours alone. The minute you stop thinking about these issues, they end.

Please can you elaborate on this Skip. What worries are mine alone?

I see things being resolved / understood / made comfortable by thought / planning / strategy (which you refer to as worry and I think OR describes as playing games). I stop thinking / planning / strategising when I start implementing... so yes you're right, my "worries" go away because after a productive period of consideration I take mitigating action.

I'm not sure I get what you're suggesting I do? Care less, be less considered? Because in reading some of the comments of people who have actually personally gone through this and come out the other side, they seem to be suggesting that considered action is necessary.

If you guys think that I am manoeuvring to keep my W in the relationship you're MASSIVELY OFF BASE. I'm manoeuvring to remove the things that me and the kids hold dear out of the huge bonfire my W believes she is entitled to burn in the garden. She can torch her own things, hell she can even put herself on there if she wishes.

[formflier]

  I'm manoeuvring to remove the things that me and the kids hold dear out of the huge bonfire my W believes she is entitled to burn in the garden. She can torch her own things, hell she can even put herself on there if she wishes.

Now I think that what you are doing might...might make sense.  I've been scratching my head for a while.

Can you give an example or two of how your path keeps your things out of the bonfire?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

1) Not rolling over and accepting (because she says and doesn't want) that the house (we love) has to be sold.

2) Not accepting (because she said) that I should be a Disney dad. Not validating her belief that the company I work for has NOT said they will facilitate 50/50 parenting by allowing me to work from home post covid 50% of the time... despite written confirmation as best a large corporate could.

3) By not mindlessly upping the resolution costs (double the price of initial mediator), or burning the work the initial mediator has done and prepared (financial disclosure) such that keeping the house is no longer possible.

4) By not entertaining her fanciful ideas that there is no expectation that she attempt to mitigate her own circumstances and replace income or take benefits she is entitled to such that affording a higher mortgage is not possible.

5) Historically by changing the relationship that I had with our children such that it eliminated the toxic impacts of me balancing my W's chaotic parenting with overly strict "bad cop" parenting... moving to a more neutral parenting stance with consistent boundaries. Differentiated my parenting from her parenting accepting that co-parenting was not possible and parallel parenting was likely to be more successful for me and the kids.

6) Pushing back when things were removed from the house... my things. Including refuting her lies about how and when said things came to be in the house.

7) Preventing her from selling the house in Dec17, Jun18, Dec19 with no financial agreement in place. With no financial agreement in place, no transactions and subsequent use of funds are protected.

8) Encouraged truth telling to avoid situations (which happened anyway since the truth was not told yet came out anyway) where more damage was done to the children. On a personal level I am utterly honest with the children, not necessarily because I think it's because children should be raised, but I know how much ANY dishonesty would be to them at this critical time. If I can't bare to be honest about it, I shouldn't be doing it. I don't have that luxury at the moment hence (one of many reasons) dating is off the table.

I accept that some of the things (people and possessions) will be damaged or lost, but I will not have my life and my kids lives ransacked for the fruitless objectives of a woman trying on new hats for size.

[Skip]

Question: Why do you want her on the mortgage?

Question: Why do you want her on the mortgage?

NW, it might help to look at the example in discussion.

Question: Why do you want her on the mortgage?

What possible material reason do you want her on the refinance of the house that you are living in and plan to keep?

You are very upset about this.

You described the end of the term of the current mortgage as catastrophic and with the likelihood that the bank would foreclose on the property.

That was an exaggeration and never really a likelihood. You have a good payment record and a lot of equity in the house.

You believe she is morally wrong and too irrational to comprehend for not wanting to sign the mortgage without mediating the issue.

I could see an attorney telling her that you need to prove to her that the "estate" will be compromised if she doesn't sign the mortgage.

You believe the bank sees this as irregular behavior on her part.  I suspect they are requesting a documentation to be sure that this is not a irregular move by you.

All in all... what is all this emotional energy about? Can you answer that?

Why don't you see this for what it is?

When she had problems with the children, you stood back and watched her flounder in the water with some satisfaction.

She is now watching you flounder in the water with some satisfaction.

I think you are slightly better off to have the house financed separately now.

[Enabler]

What possible material reason do you want her on the refinance of the house that you are living in and plan to keep?

What if she were to argue that she was entitled to half the proceeds of the sale of the house yet left me liable for the mortgage?

Me buying her out of the house is not a forgone conclusion and is reliant on the deal WE agree on... or a court. Since financial negotiations are not concluded me presumptuously making such preparations as to do that would be foolish. Several months ago I suggested we make such preparations and was met with outrage by her for that as well. what would have made utter rational sense would be for us to have maxed the mortgage in joint names, she takes the money and buys something else and then we remove her name from the mortgage and title deeds at the same time. The bank might not have been thrilled about that but likely swallowed it. That was rejected.

You described the end of the term of the current mortgage as catastrophic and with the likelihood that the bank would foreclose on the property.

- Mortgage default is a credit negative situation
- I am an FCA (SEC equiv) registered individual dealing directly with client money, I am required to attest quarterly that I do not have any CCJ (county court judgements) or financial conduct issues pending against my name... in essence I am supposed to be a financial (and social) fit and proper person.
- Please could you tell me where I actually said that the bank would foreclose on the property and used the term "catastrophic"? I don't remember using that term and that would be a lie. The bank is perfectly entitled to act in a reasonable way to recover the principle amount it is owed plus reasonable charges. Selling the property is in it's toolbox of weapons to do that. I do not want to be at the mercy of the bank in any way shape or form and have expressed this to my W.
-  Inaction could materially impact our ability to borrow in the future which is highly pertinent to me since I need to max out to potentially buy her out of this property. I am not an expert of the retail credit rating agencies nor what type of entry this default might add to my credit history. I'd imagine (based on nothing) that the credit scores are pretty merciless.

She is now watching you flounder in the water with some satisfaction.

Who's floundering? I applied for the mortgage and was approved.

[formflier]

1) Not rolling over and accepting (because she says and doesn't want) that the house (we love) has to be sold.

2) Not accepting (because she said) that I should be a Disney dad. Not validating her belief that the company I work for has NOT said they will facilitate 50/50 parenting by allowing me to work from home post covid 50% of the time... despite written confirmation as best a large corporate could.

3) By not mindlessly upping the resolution costs (double the price of initial mediator), or burning the work the initial mediator has done and prepared (financial disclosure) such that keeping the house is no longer possible.

4) By not entertaining her fanciful ideas that there is no expectation that she attempt to mitigate her own circumstances and replace income or take benefits she is entitled to such that affording a higher mortgage is not possible.

5) Historically by changing the relationship that I had with our children such that it eliminated the toxic impacts of me balancing my W's chaotic parenting with overly strict "bad cop" parenting... moving to a more neutral parenting stance with consistent boundaries. Differentiated my parenting from her parenting accepting that co-parenting was not possible and parallel parenting was likely to be more successful for me and the kids.

6) Pushing back when things were removed from the house... my things. Including refuting her lies about how and when said things came to be in the house.

7) Preventing her from selling the house in Dec17, Jun18, Dec19 with no financial agreement in place. With no financial agreement in place, no transactions and subsequent use of funds are protected.

8) Encouraged truth telling to avoid situations (which happened anyway since the truth was not told yet came out anyway) where more damage was done to the children. On a personal level I am utterly honest with the children, not necessarily because I think it's because children should be raised, but I know how much ANY dishonesty would be to them at this critical time. If I can't bare to be honest about it, I shouldn't be doing it. I don't have that luxury at the moment hence (one of many reasons) dating is off the table.

I accept that some of the things (people and possessions) will be damaged or lost, but I will not have my life and my kids lives ransacked for the fruitless objectives of a woman trying on new hats for size.

And...how does your apparent resistance/slow walking divorce (basically what appear to be delaying tactics) facilitate these things happening/coming true.

Note:  At first glance I don't disagree with things on your list (please hear that), what I'm still completely baffled by is the "methods" you appear to be using to achieve goals that we all seem to be agreeing on.


Perhaps Skip and others can tweak the wording of the following axiom.

Axiom:  The longer a divorce drags on and or more frustrated  a pwBPD becomes with the divorce process, the higher the likelihood of a junkyard dog lawyer being hired.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

What if she were to argue that she was entitled to half the proceeds of the sale of the house yet left me liable for the mortgage?
 

Hey..I'm glad I'm talking to a finance guy.  Sometimes emotional issues cloud the words you would not normally use.

"half the proceeds" really wouldn't make sense to a court or a CPA (or other finance person)..so I wouldn't worry about her claiming that.

If she wanted half of the "net profit" of what you made as a couple on the house (even if it is sold to you), I think that is a reasonable expectation and even a reasonable thing for you to offer.

Would you worry about her asking for half of the Martian in the basement?  (no of course not)

So don't worry about her asking for other nonsensical things either...

 

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

"half the proceeds" really wouldn't make sense to a court or a CPA (or other finance person)..so I wouldn't worry about her claiming that.

Well I had to get comfy with that, did... and moved forward with a solution.

[Enabler]

And...how does your apparent resistance/slow walking divorce (basically what appear to be delaying tactics) facilitate these things happening/coming true.

Weird things happen given enough opportunity to happen. Being ready to seize the moment when it happens, when something lands on your plate is another thing. Knowing what you're looking to seize is yet another and knowing what you're accidentally letting go of is yet another.

I'm not protesting to be smart, and I've sure as hell done a lot of very very dumb things along the way. BUT, (and my W's OM is not the point here) whilst my W has been heavily focused on OM, I have been making hay, building relationships with the kids, learning about things, learning about divorce, writing here, learning about me and learning about parenting. She accidentally let go of rope... distracted. I snaffled a bit in whilst she was looking the other way.

Many of you place the blame of the slow paced divorce at my feet. I have thanked my wife many many times over the years for gifting me this time, time for the kids to grow older and bond more with me, time for me to change my parenting style even time to save money. Every time she has pushed (chaotically) to do the divorce I have participated and delivered the things I was told to do on time and in an orderly manner. Every time for no apparent reason it went away again.

Then Covid happened... now I'm a religious man, but to say that covid was the hand of God sent specifically for the purposes of changing my situation after 3 years of ground work would be a little arrogant, but here we are, and things look a lot different now than they did in Feb. Like I said at the beginning 'weird things happen given enough opportunity to happen'... and weird things have happened. My W might be very very very frustrated with these weird outcomes but to say that I planned them instigated them is a stretch. I've just been ready to catch opportunity as it passes me by.

NL

[Enabler]

Axiom:  The longer a divorce drags on and or more frustrated  a pwBPD becomes with the divorce process, the higher the likelihood of a junkyard dog lawyer being hired.

Is there a difference between being frustrated with me or being frustrated with herself... Initially I think of anger vs embarrassment/regret (shame). Of the most part I have NOT stopped her from getting a divorce, I have stopped her doing things that weren't okay and then typically a lawyer or informed person has later reinforced what I have said. So initially she might be angry with me and inclined to go to Junkyard lawyer but upon being told by a reasonable trusted individual she feels shame that she let herself down by thinking her initial proposal was good... thus inclined to want to go via mediation.

There's also a personal narrative to think about. She's a very religious person, her relationship with OM is also heavily wrapped up in religion (long story) so, to go to a junkyard lawyer requires her to abandon that persona and also abandon the view that God will guide her through this divorce and deliver her on the other side.

Junkyard always persists as a risk... always. BUT, I think there are things that I can do that makes junkyard more probable and actually permissible for her. Upping the number of lawyers in the room makes it permissible to arm herself with a Pitbull. Note she's seen a lawyer since Jan17... I first spoke to someone in Sep20 and that delay was intentional for a number of reasons.

[Skip]

Upping the number of lawyers in the room makes it permissible to arm herself with a Pitbull.

Is this realistic thinking, NL?

What NL action made it permissible for her to have an affair?
What NL action made it permissible for her to file for divorce?
What NL action made it permissible for her to move out?
What NL action made it permissible for switch mediators?

It seems to me she that she doesn't transition is an orderly fashion - rather thing build up and she blows.

And then you react to the situation and what she gives you.

So its reasonable she could blow to a junkyard dog.

[worriedStepmom]

I am divorced from a person without a pd. I spent an awful lot of time, like you, trying to predict how my ex would react to things I tried to do. Turns out, no matter how hard I tried to control the outcomes, it didn't work.  And I am VERY good at contingency planning and risk assessment. 

Your list of things that you managed to do with your planning has almost nothing to do with your planning.
1 (the house) - could have gotten the same results without a mediator.  Plus, honestly, the house isn't that important.  I say that as someone once DESPERATE to keep my kids from moving.  It was wasted energy.

2) (custody) - could have gotten the same results without a mediator.  You wasted your time trying to convince her you could WFH and care for the kids. 

3) (keeping costs down) - they are down so far, but you are no closer to divorce than you were, so who knows how much higher they will get.  The new mediator can start over.  Everything you've decided so far-----out.

4) (proving she can afford stuff) - Could have gotten the same result without a mediator.  You wasted your time trying to convince her of this (and she's still not convinced).

5) (better parenting) - You would have done this anyway.

6) (division of belongings) - this could have been decided in other ways.  There are rules for how to divvy up stuff.

7) (preventing her from selling the house) - doesn't it require your agreement?  Why would you need to bend over backwards to convince her?

8) (Encouraged truth telling) -  It's not your job to tell her what to disclose or not.  Unfortunately, as divorced parents in high conflict situations, our job is to pick up the pieces when they hurt the kids.

Most of us have been in your shoes.  We get where you are coming from, and we are pleading with you to take a breath and see the big picture.

[ForeverDad]

What are the biggest reasons you don't want to sell the house?  I know for me it was not wanting to deal with a move.  Fortunately I'm still here, so far.

If you feel a move is not good for the kids, the reality is that millions of kids move each year around the globe for a variety of reasons.  Often it's because the parents obtain work elsewhere.  Or the family has outgrown the house.  Or the schools are better elsewhere.  Or... the parents have divorced.  The point is that whatever the reasons, kids will do okay with a move.  You don't have to keep the kids in the same house.  You can parent the kids wherever you end up residing.  Your home is where you live.

[formflier]

Many of you place the blame of the slow paced divorce at my feet. 

Speaking for myself...I don't think you understand the risk to you and your future of a slow paced divorce.   Perhaps you are starting to see it..perhaps.

I'll hush and let you work through Skip's intriguing questions.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

1) What NL action made it permissible for her to have an affair?
2) What NL action made it permissible for her to file for divorce?
3) What NL action made it permissible for her to move out?
4) What NL action made it permissible for switch mediators?

1) That's a bit of a tricky one, she would argue that my "abusive" behaviour permitted her to have the relationship. In fact she argued that I put her in the vulnerable position where it could happen... she has verbalised that the OM relationship was my fault. On the flip side of this, at the time I had a bunch of choices but if I distil that down to 2 choices for ease of explanation it might be clearer... legitimise the new relationship which was supposedly my fault, walk away and say a) " happens, this is super groovy and it's all my fault" or b) "This is not okay, I'm standing for our marriage, but there is nothing okay about this OM relationship". Do you think she would have doubted for a second that the affair was okay in the slightest had I have taken route a)? In Jan this year she was asked by the child P why the D had taken so long, to which she responded she didn't think she had the rite to destroy other peoples lives. So yes, my actions have clearly placed not removed guilt from her which she has struggled with. Had I have removed the guilt (and it wasn't mine to remove or deal with) I would have permitted her to do (even more) as she pleased.

2) Her finding out that I had scraped her Whatsapp from our family computer seeing 18m of secret communication between her and OM. It was just the excuse she needed and ammo that OM used to "prove" I was who he said I was.

3) Me refusing to move into the playroom to work during covid. Prior to that she had tried to get me to move out and threatened to move out herself but backtracked when I called her on it. There was nothing wrong with me working in the kitchen and it especially suited me AND the kids since I was doing the majority of the home schooling and needed to keep an eye on the kids whilst working. This was the justification that "forced" her into taking action.

4) She's "free" now... she can do as she pleases and wants to exert that power and control. That's nothing I've permitted.

So in conclusion there's a bunch of actions or inactions I have taken which have sped up or slowed down the process. Some of her actions are as a result of anger and frustration, others are inaction because of a function of guilt. To say that I was fully conscious of my own actions permitting or not permitting behaviour is a step too far, some of it was purposeful, some not. For example I was purposeful in not endorsing the OM relationship and purposeful about not rescuing her by absolving that guilt for her. If she chose to be deceitful about seeing him and I inadvertently enabled it that was a different matter.

If I act "aggressively" in the divorce it permits her to act aggressively back. I'm not suggesting that she won't try and exert her control and new found "freedom" by going to the Junkyard Lawyer, that could totally happen. But I place 100% probability on that happening if I raise the bar myself in a bid to out manoeuvre her. There are periods where she pulls the rope, if I pull hard she pulls harder, if I stand and hold she eventually gives up. 

[Enabler]

What are the biggest reasons you don't want to sell the house?  I know for me it was not wanting to deal with a move.  Fortunately I'm still here, so far.

1) Kids love the house and are desperate to stay
2) It's an awesome home, great proportions inside and out, character, location
3) £45k stamp duty tax
4) 1100 sq ft unconverted barn - potential conversion
5) I've spent a lot of time and effort working on the house (months if not years) including renovating 16 sash windows

If it goes it goes, but I would like to exhaust all options before I let it go.

[Fian]

1) Kids love the house and are desperate to stay
2) It's an awesome home, great proportions inside and out, character, location
3) £45k stamp duty tax
4) 1100 sq ft unconverted barn - potential conversion
5) I've spent a lot of time and effort working on the house (months if not years) including renovating 16 sash windows

If it goes it goes, but I would like to exhaust all options before I let it go.

Not from England, so I did a quick google search.  Does this mean you don't have to pay stamp duty taxes?

If you're buying your next home or buying a property valued at over £500,000 you would pay: no tax on the value of the property up to £125,000. 2% tax on the property value between £125,001 and £250,000. 5% tax on the property value between £250,001 and £550,000.

[Enabler]

At the moment if I were to buy a new house (or my W) then the first 500k is effectively free of stamp duty (purchase tax). The transaction has to be completed by the end of March. If I take my W off the deeds of my current home I don’t have to pay any stamp duty at all.