Tips for freshly separated coparenting difficulties?

[RobertSmith]

Hi,

I am recently separated and we have a 22 months old. I am trying to install a strict limited contact to which my BPD ex (7 years relationship) is fighting very hard against. We are still in mediation but have a temporary agreement for custody (50/50). I am telling her that she can contact me for the need of our child, but that is all. She initiated the breakup, told me the worst possible things (I never loved you, you are a bad father, I am secretly a lesbian, etc.). I think she taught that I would be miserable and beg her back, but I landed on my feet and I am getting better quickly and moving on with my life. I own the house, have a good job and money while she is living with her parents and struggling at being an adult.

As of late, she is fighting against the boundaries that I try to put in place, calling my reasoning ''stupid''.
For example she messaged me for :
- trying to change 4 times the custody for holidays, while this was agreed a long time ago
- request that we give a gift ''together'' to the daycare staff
- request to come pick-up stuff in person that she left at my house (stuff that she told me she either doesnt want in the past or junk, such as 2-3 coat hanger...), all of which fits in the child bag if needed
- made a ''mistake'' in a form to prolong a money transfer
- refusal to cash in her child support (money for our child, not her)
- calling me out as abandoning my child for postponing a ''separation'' therapy session (which is pointless in my mind)
- sending me picture of my kid and expecting one back, and I am a bad father if I don't send any

The messages usually come at night and daily. How can one make the BPD ex respect the boundaries and stop the constant contact?

[CoherentMoose]

Hello.  Welcome to this board. 

How can one make the BPD ex respect the boundaries and stop the constant contact?
It sounds like you're familiar with boundaries and are attempting to set and hold some as you go through separation.

The general theme discussed in here is boundaries are for you and not your spouse...and it's extremely difficult to "make" them honor a boundary.  BPDs do not honor boundaries.  It seems to be a challenge for them to steam-roll right through any boundary that is attempted. 

You can set up mechanisms to help you maintain a communications boundary.  Examples include communicating only through written means like texting or email.  Many in here had to resort to the use of parenting software like Our Family Wizard or Talking Parents.  These apps record the email with time stamps which provides a handy documentation trail of communications should that be needed for legal purposes. 

Others in here have a third party (family member, good friend) filter email or texts and only pass on those required for parenting purposes. 

My Fiancé went with email only with her communications, while her xBPDh will only text.  He tried for months to get her to talk with him on the phone and she refused.  The one time she allowed it, the verbal vomit that ensued reinforced the reason for the written communications only rule. 
I've asked her to limit the texting to short term child (48-hour limit) exchange logistics, while anything longer, such as future vacation plans, will be handled through email.  It's an interesting dynamic witnessing her email and he respond on Text.

Search in here on "Parallel Parenting" and there should be a number of stories discussing how others have built and maintained boundaries.

Have you read "Splitting" by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger?  It's a great primer on what you can expect as the separation process moves forward.  In addition, "BIFF" by Bill Eddy is also a great resource.  There are articles on this board discussing BIFF and parallel parenting too. 

Last, there are some amazing folks in here that provide a wealth of information and experience.  Check back often and let us know how you are doing. 

Good luck.  CoMo

[worriedStepmom]

My H and his ex have been divorced for 11 years.  She *still* goes through periods when she messages nonstop about random stuff, mixed in with accusations against us.  We didn't respond to any of that stuff, but she kept it coming.

Last year, we both blocked her on our phones, so she has to go through Talking Parents now.  She rants there just as much, but we only have to look at it once or twice a day, and it makes it easier to ignore, and just walk away when a response isn't necessary.  A parenting app like that also gives a timestamp of when someone has looked at the message, and that at least has stopped the ranting of 'why are you ignoring meeee?'

[ForeverDad]

The general theme discussed in here is boundaries are for you and not your spouse...and it's extremely difficult to "make" them honor a boundary.  BPDs do not honor boundaries.  It seems to be a challenge for them to steam-roll right through any boundary that is attempted.

We have a couple threads explaining boundaries over on our Tools and Skills board.  I too was frustrated at first why I couldn't get my Ex to respect boundaries.  As the others here also learned, an acting-out disordered person won't observe boundaries.  It's almost like they view boundaries were made for smashing.   So instead your effective 'boundary' is really your response to the poor behavior, whatever it might be.  A simple example might be, "If you do or don't do ___ then I will or won't do ___."  That's one of the concepts.  Read the Boundary threads in the link highlighted above.  Like all of us here did, you have to learn sometime and now's a good time to learn.

[GaGrl]

One thing to remember is that ignoring the poor behavior often is the most effective response. People with PDs seek attention -- it doesn't matter if it's positive or negative attention; they just want a reaction that shows they are at the forefront of your mind. Not responding might result in several "extinction bursts" (excessive reactions to boundaries) but should eventually show that you won't respond to their manipulations.

You are at the beginning of a co-parenting relationship, and you need to shape it now so that it is workable. Boundaries based on your values are the way to do it. For example, if your value is "We are now two separate people, no longer a couple, who live and parent in our own households" then it is easier to draw a boundary that "we do not give presents together."

[RobertSmith]

Hi all,

thanks for the help, I will read this material. I am a little bit in shock of realizing that this will be my life for a good while.

Like GaGrl you said, this is what I want to install, we are no longer a family and hence we do separate things. She is fighting hard against this and I got to admit that I still reaction to every message that she send, not negatively, but it does something ''to me''. She claims all my attempt to put boundaries is done out of anger since I try to keep her in my life by all means possible, which is in itself crazy because it is made for the complete opposite reason!

[alleyesonme]

Lots of good insight by the others here.

One thing I'd add is to maybe send a text or message in a parenting app explaining exactly what you want her to stop doing and why. Then every time she refuses to obey that boundary, refer back to the initial message. Over time, you create a paper trail of her pattern of behavior.

[GaGrl]

Lots of good insight by the others here.

One thing I'd add is to maybe send a text or message in a parenting app explaining exactly what you want her to stop doing and why. Then every time she refuses to obey that boundary, refer back to the initial message. Over time, you create a paper trail of her pattern of behavior.

Once you have a settlement agreement, you'll be able to use this same technique by referencing the applicable clause in the agreement. For things like attempting to change the holiday schedule four yimes, you'll be able to reply, "I will be following the schedule laid out in the court order, page 5."

[ForeverDad]

Following the court's order is a helpful boundary.  But understand that real life can throw curve balls at us and sometimes we do have to make exceptions or adjustments.  In such cases you have to be very clear that it is only one exception, a one-time event, and does not change the order.

Still, such necessary exceptions do entice the disordered ex to 'push' the boundaries again and again.  It is up to us to not appease, give in or weaken our justifiable boundaries.

Be aware (and beware) that being agreeable and an overall Nice Guy or Nice Gal risks sabotaging an otherwise good boundary.  You're not mean or unreasonable — emotion-laden terms often used in emotional attacks — to stick firmly to a boundary.

[RobertSmith]

ForeverDad

Thank for your words, I truly feel them.

I know that even once the final settlement is reached, she will be the kind of one to always be on edge or disrespect it. She already did so with the COVID situation in our country...

I try to stay as cold and neutral as possible, but she makes being firm seem like being angry or manipulative (at least accusing me of it) and it is sometimes plays with my head even though I try not to show it. I guess with time I will be more used to it, but for now, I guess she knows she can get a reaction or a response out of me, even if it is not the one that she would like.

 

[RobertSmith]

Hi all,

So I followed your advices and stood strong with my boundaries, but she manages to push all of them and blame me for putting them in place. For example, she came into my house while I specifically asked her not to and tried to change last minute the exchange date for the child...

The latest contention is about continuing ''separation therapy''. This was proposed by her psychologist and not the court, we already went about 5 sessions. I mentioned to her that I don't see the point as we don't have any problems communicating when we don't speak and clearly the child is not doing any worst since the separation. I also tell her that I already told her everything I had to say and I don't need a therapist to know that parent alienation is a bad thing.

She is telling me that I am angry with her and constantly on the attack (which is not the case) and that I have to continue the therapy with her for our child wellbeing. She is bubbling with anger if I say that I refuse to go and don't see the point. I have the feeling that deep down she wants do this for her own reasons since I cut any other contact.

Do any of you have experience with such therapy? Why is she so pushing to continue it?

[ForeverDad]

"my boundaries, but she manages to push all of them... she came into my house while I specifically asked her not to"

Find a better locksmith?  If I had gone to my ex's home during our high-tension early years I would have been met by a locked door, and a call to the police.

Okay that was my jaded first thought.  Probably I was too blunt?  I'm assuming you live separately, you don't lock your door and expect compliance to your request.  But really, how do you enforce compliance if the door isn't locked?

During my separation, divorce and post-divorce order (2005-2020) I never went into her home and until recently only once into her business site.  She has not been in my home until recently when my son was aging out of the legal system.

Did you understand what practical boundaries are?  You know she plows through your expectations, your boundary is how you react to violations.

We have a couple threads explaining boundaries over on our Tools and Skills board.  I too was frustrated at first why I couldn't get my Ex to respect boundaries.  As the others here also learned, an acting-out disordered person won't observe boundaries.  It's almost like they view boundaries were made for smashing.   So instead your effective 'boundary' is really your response to the poor behavior, whatever it might be.  A simple example might be, "If you do or don't do ___ then I will or won't do ___."  That's one of the concepts.  Read the Boundary threads in the link highlighted above.  Like all of us here did, you have to learn sometime and now's a good time to learn.

"Don't enter my home" is a weak boundary and easily breached if your doors aren't shut and locked.  A practical one might be "If you enter my home without my express permission then I will ___."  Of course, you'll get some extreme extinction burst overreactions that for which you'll have to be prepared.

Do not expect you can use reason and logic.  She's not really listening in her world of emotion-controlled perceptions.  The more you try to reason with her the more she'll block listening.  Sadly, many here have described it as the pwBPD wanting negative communication and engagement more than lack of contact.

[RobertSmith]

Hi ForeverDad,

To give you a bit of context on that event, we usually do exchange at the daycare with no contact, but it is closed due to the holidays. I requested a neutral drop-off point to which she refuses because it has not been settled yet in mediation on that topic. So she insisted to drop him off at my place, I was waiting for her outside.

She used a clever ploy. Its around 8pm, snowing and cold, she didn't put on the kid's snowsuit . So she rushes him to the door instead of giving him to me since I kept the door locked. We have an argument on the snowsuit issue outside, I can't even imagine if I brought him without one, I unlock and she rushes inside to let him down. It all happened so fast.  

[worriedStepmom]

I understand how there wasn't much you can do about that (but document that she brought child home inappropriately dressed).

You do not have to stand inside your own home and listen to her rant, though.  Once she refused to leave, you could have called the police to have her removed.  You could have taken kid into another room and locked that door.

These are escalations.  But, sometimes those are necessary.

[livednlearned]

she is fighting against the boundaries that I try to put in place

Frustrating. You've moved forward with your life after she seemed to want the same, and now she is making it hard for you to do that. Ugh.

If she has BPD she will have no boundaries because she has no self, one of the tragic and confusing aspects of having the disorder.

She is not fighting with your boundaries so much as she is fighting against boundaries, period. The idea of a boundary feels hostile because it thwarts her attempt to have what is essentially a bottomless and impossible need met (having others reflect back what she feels or wants).

Asserting boundaries will be hard now because the relationship has changed and while she may understand that she initiated the change, she won't understand why other boundaries have to change.

It's a mixed bag for many of us ... but most of us have to become the emotional leader when it comes to asserting boundaries. It does mean more work for you but it also means you have some control over things.

Unfortunately, in the beginning it can take a surprising amount of time and tactical thinking to construct rock solid boundaries.

For example she messaged me for :
- trying to change 4 times the custody for holidays, while this was agreed a long time ago

How did you respond?

- request that we give a gift ''together'' to the daycare staff
- request to come pick-up stuff in person that she left at my house (stuff that she told me she either doesnt want in the past or junk, such as 2-3 coat hanger...), all of which fits in the child bag if needed
- made a ''mistake'' in a form to prolong a money transfer
- refusal to cash in her child support (money for our child, not her)
- calling me out as abandoning my child for postponing a ''separation'' therapy session (which is pointless in my mind)
- sending me picture of my kid and expecting one back, and I am a bad father if I don't send any

You will always be a bad guy when you assert a boundary.

It will also give her a sense of security knowing that at least person has some brakes. She won't behave better but sometimes what we're going for is to prevent someone from behaving worse.

[RobertSmith]

"Asserting boundaries will be hard now because the relationship has changed and while she may understand that she initiated the change, she won't understand why other boundaries have to change."

This is so true! And to get back to the ''separation therapy'', it is essentially because she claims that she wants us to have ''good communication and relationship'' for the wellbeing of the child. This is essentially in my mind her trying to stay my friend as if nothing happened with the help of a therapist. I tell her that we communicate just fine when contact is limited, but she tells me that no that im angry because I put boundaries and the therapist is not helping at all on that issue. Hence my question if anyone went through this in their separation, because I feel there is no point with a BPD?

As for my response to her request, I stay firm and pretty much deny anything that is not reasonable or justified. This triggers her anger tho, and she tells me that im the angry one because I say no.

[alleyesonme]

"Asserting boundaries will be hard now because the relationship has changed and while she may understand that she initiated the change, she won't understand why other boundaries have to change."

This is so true! And to get back to the ''separation therapy'', it is essentially because she claims that she wants us to have ''good communication and relationship'' for the wellbeing of the child. This is essentially in my mind her trying to stay my friend as if nothing happened with the help of a therapist. I tell her that we communicate just fine when contact is limited, but she tells me that no that im angry because I put boundaries and the therapist is not helping at all on that issue. Hence my question if anyone went through this in their separation, because I feel there is no point with a BPD?

As for my response to her request, I stay firm and pretty much deny anything that is not reasonable or justified. This triggers her anger tho, and she tells me that im the angry one because I say no.

I feel your pain, and I'm curious to see if anyone has any tips here. Dealing with BP's is exhausting. Zero sense of logic, boundaries, fairness, respect, etc. I would imagine that if you two don't communicate well verbally, it's 99.9% (or more) because of her issues, yet now she's telling you that you need to make an effort for you two to communicate better. At least in my experience, BP's aren't capable of making the "minor tweaks" that a therapist will suggest in order to actually improve the communication anyway. I agree with you in that I don't see the point of you agreeing to it.

[RobertSmith]

Thank you for the answer!

To be honest we went to about 5 sessions and it goes like this. I try to make sense of the relationship, what happened with facts, and talk about my feelings. On her part, she talk 95 % about her feelings and rely on very few facts as she claim she has some sort of amnesia or that the person in the relationship was ''not her'' (this is so weird to hear). It is as if its not actually important what happened factually, just how she felt or was triggered about it.

Even the therapist is walking on eggshells with her, for example telling about her idealization perception of parenting and her over-attachment towards the child. If at any point she says anything like ''I feel that I am being judged because of my condition'' the therapist backtracks and apologize. There is nothing like this on my end when I do talk about my feelings. This sounds and feel very one sided and unfair during the process.

The therapist claims that if I have any resentment towards her, the child will suffer from it. I get it, but im not gonna stand next to her and tell her what a nice person she is when this is so fresh, neither am I gonna take it out on the child in any way. That work will be done on my end in my own healing process.

So if I say that the way that it will be ia communication for the child only (reducing contact reduces conflict, and on my end I never request any changement watsover from the temporary agreement while she done so at least 10 times), my ex and the therapist can't understand that and says that its me being angry. I don't get it at all.    





 

[kells76]

Hey RobertSmith;

Joint counseling sessions with a pwBPD are another kind of "special" 

This stood out to me because DH and I have been through it before in a joint session:

the therapist backtracks and apologize. There is nothing like this on my end when I do talk about my feelings. This sounds and feel very one sided and unfair during the process.

So, one thing that is likely going on is that the T (therapist) actually knows that your kid's mom is the "problem parent". But, at only 5 sessions in, the T also knows that in order for you ex to make ANY progress at parenting, she has to "buy in" to the whole project of therapy. pwBPD struggle with trust (understatement) so in order for the T to have any say in your ex's parenting behaviors, the T has to build a "therapeutic alliance" with your ex. This means that early on, there is a HEAVY tilt towards: validation, empathy, support, and understanding.

You're likely seeing this unfold in the sessions, and it's infuriating, because you've had hands-on experience with your ex, and you know she's the problem, and making excuses about "amnesia" and other woo woo crazy stuff. But you see the T apologizing, and bending over backwards, and accommodating, and you're like: what the heck, how is this helping our kid.

Two things you can try to change the dynamic and vibe in the sessions:

1. Can you get a solo session, just you and the T? I wonder if it'd be helpful to have a safe space to share "you know, I'm confused when I hear you apologizing about calling Ex out on "amnesia" and stuff. I really am having a hard time seeing how that is going to help our child. Can you help me understand what's going on?"

Notice how instead of you blaming Ex to the T, you are focusing on wanting to learn and understand. You are also keeping the focus on "I want to help our child".

2. This is the BIG one. One of the things T's WILL notice is which parent is able and willing to make a change and/or follow directions for the good of the child. You already know that long-term, your ex can't/won't do this. But you both are new clients to the T (I'm assuming). So yes, there is going to be some work to show the T that you can and will change. The T is giving you a "secret" opportunity to do this when she (I'm assuming she?) makes this move:

The therapist claims that if I have any resentment towards her, the child will suffer from it. I get it, but im not gonna stand next to her and tell her what a nice person she is when this is so fresh, neither am I gonna take it out on the child in any way. That work will be done on my end in my own healing process.

The T may already know that you are healthy enough to field a challenge to step up your game. How you respond to this challenge is key. It sounds like you have your own individual therapist? Is that part of your own healing process?

If so, you have been given an incredible open door to prove, through your actions, to this coparenting T, that you are in fact the parent with solutions and maturity.

You're 100% accurate that it won't be helpful to just tell your ex "you're so great, you're so amazing, I'm just pumping you up because that's the only option besides me resenting you, I'm validating all your BS, etc". That's not healthy, and you see that.

But it's not an either or.

It's not "either I resent her or I lie that she's a nice person".

There's a middle way that you've hinted at -- your own process.

It's time to be real with the coparenting T (in whatever way feels safe/appropriate) that "you know, you're right that I occasionally struggle with resentment towards Ex. I understand what you mean when you say that can impact our child, and I love our kid so much I'm willing to change so they'll be OK. In individual therapy, I'm working on processing my feelings of anger [or grief, or whatever], so that I can be the best dad I can to our kid. What else would you recommend I try for our kid's benefit?"

See how you "jiu-jitsu'ed" that claim of "RobertSmith, I'm concerned you're resentful towards Ex, and that impacts your kid"?

You did two things your ex cannot and will not do.

You took responsibility for your feelings -- it could even be said as "I can see why you'd be concerned that I might feel resentful". Say whatever is true -- whether it's "yes, I struggle with resentment", or "yes, I can see how you'd be concerned that I'd be resentful".

You were open to trying something new for your kid's benefit.

Your ex will not take responsibility for herself, and I 110% guarantee you that with time, this WILL come out in sessions.

She will not want to change her style to benefit your kid. At some point, the T will be like, "Well, Ex, RobertSmith has changed A, B, and C. I'd like you to try D and E for a month, and we'll see how things go". She won't be able to stick with it.

It's going to become more and more obvious who's really the problem. Even though your ex THINKS that she's "forcing" you into something that benefits her (i.e., she thinks she can get the T on her side, both blaming you for being an awful person), in reality this is going to turn against her.

Stay strong, get feedback from your individual T on this, but I'm not thinking the T has been snowed by your ex. I'm thinking the T is building a therapeutic alliance, and if you know that, you can work with that to prove that you're the healthy one.

If you want, check out Dr. Craig Childress' writings on how to deal with mental health professionals if you're the non-BPD parent in a divorce:

https://drcachildress.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Ju-jitsu-Parenting-Fighting-Back-from-the-Down-Position-Childress-2013.pdf

Keep posting here and let us know if changing your vibe/dynamic in the sessions is helpful. It might take a few more weeks/months but it actually sounds like things could become more positive.

Hang in there;

kells76

[RobertSmith]

Kells76

I am without words! You gave me so much to think about and I was seeing it the wrong way and you made me see a bit of light there. I also like the jiu-jitsu parallel a lot! I do have my own therapist to help me through this, and while they were on board initially with the therapy, they kind of hinted to me to not pursue it. Im buying peace in a way cuz the ex gets literally aggressive if I hint at not going.

I am going to give you a big fresh example that happened over the weekend. The mother of the ex, so the grandmother of the child, send me a message during last week, that I didn't open since I cut contact with her family at the same time. It was to request that they take the kid for an additional supper and night for a party, on my custody time. (they could have done that party the night before since they were all together, but what do I know...). The grandmother ended up sending me a text novel afterwards hinting at their deception of me not answering that I saw afterwards.

So I receive a message from the mother, basically asking me why I didn't answer the message and if she could take the child on that night. I was not aware of this request. The motive was for a birthday party, and this is the day before the requested change date. So I protest, since it is not up to the grandma to make those calls, we are the parents. We argued a lot about it, to which I agreed they could take him to supper, but they would need to bring him back for bedtime for his usual routine. No deal, the ex wants supper and sleepover or nothing, and I am ''heinous'' for refusing that request and arguing (yes she actually called me that even tho I didn't say anything else than requested info and tell her that im not thrilled by the grandmother requesting stuff on her behalf).

So I will use this in therapy as an example. Yes I was upset for that request, and even tho I agreed for a supper on my custody time, but I wonder what I could have ''done'' to make this better. The answer will be most likely I like you as a doormat...

[livednlearned]

One of the things I learned (the hard way) is that we are ready for different skills at different times depending on how intense our own feelings are. Feelings become less intense the more healing you do and the more time goes by.

There are things I could. not. do. with my ex during the most volatile time following our split that later became second nature. It's a process, and I'm embarrassed by some of the things I thought and said and did in the earlier months when emotions (for both of us) were so intense.

For one, I refused to do coparent counseling. Being in the same room was just, No.

Kudos for you for agreeing to participate.

I wonder what I could have ''done'' to make this better. The answer will be most likely I like you as a doormat...

She will never like your boundaries or hearing no. When she does, she'll lean on the things that have worked in the past. That won't likely change.

In your therapy sessions, it should be considered ok to emphasize boundaries and consistency for the child while things are relatively turbulent.

"I'd prefer to use this session to focus on ways we can create consistency and minimize future conflict during our co-parenting time. Experts recommend parallel parenting for high-conflict couples so that there are less opportunities to disagree, at least during the initial stages of divorce. So that's my goal here. How do we handle last-minute requests, how do we establish consistency, what are the channels of communication we can agree on."

Remember that your BPDx will always pull you into the weeds. Your advantage is the ability to see the 30,000 foot view. You may need to be specific with the counselor about your goal and remind her that the conflict you are experiencing should be addressed broadly vs. specifically: "I want to work out how we establish clear and firm boundaries to minimize any long-standing conflict over these issues. It is reasonable to ask for 5 days request by email, and a turnaround response within 24 hours. It is also reasonable to exchange any requests for overnights with other dates. Let's focus on how to do this going forward."

I can see where kells76 is coming from with the therapeutic alliance. I also think a lot of counselors are ill equipped to handle the kind of intense triangulation that happens with BPD sufferers.

I didn't have a co-parenting counselor but we did have a parenting coordinator who emphasized communication and boundaries. She taught me how to say no and mean it when it comes to someone who is hell bent on getting a one-up position at my expense.

There are often many reasonable solutions and they don't require a lot of talking.

One solution to the issue of 1) being reasonable while also 2) having boundaries is to swap nights.

"I'm willing to allow a change on this one night in exchange for _________."

Another solution might be:

"We're still in mediation and things aren't worked out yet so I'm reluctant to make any changes right now until we have things nailed down."

Another reasonable solution is:

"I'm willing to make changes to the schedule and want 22m son to have fun. However, in exchange I ask that we have a clause in our soon-to-be-mediated agreement that requests like this be handled by email with 7 days notice and 24 hours response time."

It's also reasonable to say:

"Supper only. Full stop. I cherish my nights with 22m son and want to start things off with as much consistency as possible. If I haven't heard back from you by ______ if that's your choice, I'll assume you won't be picking him up."

For me, if there was any name-calling whatsoever, that was a sign that the conversation was over. The PC taught me that, too 

You deserve to be treated with respect when your answer is no.

[ForeverDad]

My ex preferred phone calls rather than emails.  (To this day over 15 years later my email address is still blocked.)  I recall the first time I got fed up with her rants and demands that I said good bye and hung up.  She called right back and shouted, "You can't hang up on me!"  Yet she always hung up on me.

"...It is also reasonable to exchange any requests for overnights with other dates. Let's focus on how to do this going forward."

One solution to the issue of 1) being reasonable while also 2) having boundaries is to swap nights.

"I'm willing to allow a change on this one night in exchange for _____."

Swapping time is one solution.  However, the other parent is unlikely to give you enough advance warning to come up with an optimal answer.  And you have to get it in writing, or email or text.  Something tangible.  I recall one time she called and got me to agree to give her an overnight early in the week and I would get our son later that week, not sure, I think it was a Thursday night.  Well, that promised evening I went to day care and they told me mom picked up our kid.  So I called her.  She said she was already 3 states away on a trip to see her sister's family.  There was nothing to fix that... and court wouldn't have cared even if I did have documentation of the trade.  I eventually decided I had to get my end of the trade first since I knew I could be trusted to fulfill my end.  But if you don't get enough advance notice then how can you get your end of a swap first?

[livednlearned]

if you don't get enough advance notice then how can you get your end of a swap first?

True.

And ... many pwBPD struggle to compromise and negotiate fairly when aggravated.

What RS's ex will hear is some degree of control over her actions (regardless of the solution offered), which typically doesn't go over well, even if it benefits her. Win-win solutions can be considered more horrible than lose-lose.

For me, the point is to offer something reasonable and then when it doesn't go over as it should, have that as an example for why stronger parameters for future requests are needed.

If you offer reasonable solutions repeatedly and the therapist sees the BPD party fighting even with sound offers, that's an important revelation (if the counselor does not yet see it).

I'm thinking of mama-wolf, a member here who has a lot of therapists involved in her co-parenting. They seem to be contributing to the conflict because they don't prioritize boundaries, presumably out of a desire to pacify and appease the BPD parent.

I don't blame therapists for struggling in these triangles. It's not easy, although, I also believe that's no excuse for bad counsel. They either understand how bullying works and address it effectively, or else they become an instrument of it unwittingly.

[RobertSmith]

"I'm thinking of mama-wolf, a member here who has a lot of therapists involved in her co-parenting. They seem to be contributing to the conflict because they don't prioritize boundaries, presumably out of a desire to pacify and appease the BPD parent."

That ended up being the case. I tried the strategy of communication, feedback and boundaries in therapy. Basically the ex said that even tho it was last minute and coming from her mother, since I asked questions and tried to find middle groud, this was me being angry, rigid and not good for the child. The therapist didn't look at the actual messages.

The ex claimed she would have not been angry if I just said no (yaaaaa right!). The therapist sort of agreed which totally threw me off guard. The therapist said that those boundaries was not for the wellbeing of the child and I was like, well I tried to compromise and this is not out of anger, but because we have an agreement and last minutes stuff like make my schedule difficult... she turned it around and said that this was normal at this point.

I don't know... I think that the BPD ex gets way too much pleasure out of being a victim and claiming non stop that this is for the child this is for the child while asking for changes and contact all the time while I don't.



 

[livednlearned]

The therapist said that those boundaries was not for the wellbeing of the child

Not a good sign 

She is being dragged into the weeds.

Staying above the conflict would work something like this:

"Let's focus on how to minimize conflict. For now, the well-being of the child is impacted when boundaries and communication are unclear. We'll work on that today."

"Mom and dad, what is a reasonable time to make changes to the schedule. This goes both ways. Right now dad is being asked to make changes but mom will have this come up too. I've had clients who insist on 14 days advance notice to request changes. Some can manage 7 days. A handful agree to 5, though that can be tricky given how packed everyone's schedules tend to be, especially when the kids get a bit older. Dad, what do you suggest is reasonable? Mom, what about you? 14 and 5? Ok, let's split the difference. This can be the status quo and as you get comfortable with consistency, you can always decide to revisit as you build good will. Going forward, mom, can you agree to give 10 days notice for special requests? Dad, are you good with that? Mom wants 7. How about if she contacts you 10 days out you have 24 hours to respond. Anything less than that and you have 3 days to decide."

That's a rough example of how our parenting coordinator worked (although we had different issues).

She was a child psychologist with a Phd and her primary goal with high-conflict divorces was to minimize the potential for conflict.

When she detected bullying, she side-coached my ex on how to communicate effectively, to which you can imagine his response 

If the therapists do not understand the underlying dynamics happening, counseling can quickly turn into a trash can for money.

[RobertSmith]

Hi all,

As an update, I spoke with my personal therapist and since I feel that all we are doing is validating her emotions and I feel some triangulation going on, I requested to have a solo session with the ''separation therapist'' to ask questions and better understand where we are going with this therapy. She told me that she would have to think about it and it sounds as if this is a surprise, wish I don't understand since I told her that she could have a solo one with the ex also... just to see where we are at.

I feel less and less confident in this process, since she requested once again a change in the custody (I would have him an additional night and morning, and she would have to bring him over to my house. Instead of finding a solution in her schedule or requesting help on her side, she just decided to put it on me...). Once again, no boundaries, I try to be a good dad and accommodate for the kid, but this is already a never ending story of changes and we are not even at the 3 months mark of the separation.

[ForeverDad]

Let me get this straight... you already are in a negotiated 50/50 parenting agreement for parenting your nearly two year old child and your ex is offering to give you additional time?  That would set you as majority time parent, even if just barely majority.  Do you know how many of us non-disordered parents would jump at that?  That's a Gift, though yes there are some unresolved boundary issues.

If you're in the early stages of a separation, getting as much time as possible with your child is crucial.  Too often we here are dealing with custody struggles and would welcome more time.

Understand that you can't literally avoid all contact with your Ex.  You will have to meet somehow for exchanges, though I was able to do it in the early years as much as possible at daycare, school, the sheriff's office and relatively neutral parking lots.  Can you express your concerns about the offer more clearly for me?  Is she wanting to enter your home for the exchanges?

[livednlearned]

I think it's three issues FD.

One is whether the coparenting counseling is effective.

Two is the (new) offer for additional time (take it!)

And third is her coming over to the home to drop off RS's child.

RS, sometimes the instinct with BPD sufferers to be contrarian (wanting the opposite of what you want) is intensely strong. This is the "lose-lose is better than win-win" for people who are disordered in their thinking.

On #1, the coparenting counselor is not court-ordered, is that right? The downside to having this go on indefinitely is that often these professionals will testify in court. If you don't feel she is impartial, that's something to ask your L about.

On #2, the bigger issue is chipping away at more time, which will be to your advantage.

On #3, you may have to navigate the trickiness of more time + having her come to your home. Do you suspect they are tied together in her mind?

Do you have a garage? If so, what do you think about using that as a neutral place in case she attempts again to use the weather to gain access to your home.  

[RobertSmith]

Hi all,

Yes allow me to be more precise. So she had a change in schedule, which would make her unable to take him for a night and morning during her custody. I mean she could still find a solution on her end to avoid this, but she asked me to take him more instead. The problem is that the final agreement (in mediation) on custody will most likely maintain a 50/50 on paper (as per her lawyer request) she told me that she would have to do many other similar changes in the future.

I know that this is an advantage for me on an eventual custody battle if we ever have to go to trial down this road. My reservation however is that she requested to drop him off at my house. I don't have a garage and usually I wait outside for the kid, but like previous example, she usually find ways to get in, talk to me or sniff around. I requested a neutral drop-off place which was denied.

My other reservation is that this is because of her going back to school (having a schedule). Now I also have to work in the morning and I am alone, so this is also a struggle for me but I pass it through for my kid. I fear that once she starts working a real job, she won't be able to handle all of this. Most parent would be happy about it, and I am in a way, but this also means that I will have to go through this for many years to come. All I want is peace of mind on my time without constant requests and what not, and from all of your stories, I better get used to it.

As for the ''separation therapist'', this is not court mandated. It was suggested by her therapist, since she was telling her in the beginning of the breakup not to do this (I was a source of stability in her life and her therapist felt she was rushing things). This started out as couples therapy, but quickly shifted to coparenting therapy, since neither of us wanted to reconcile. I learned and heard so much crap on that person during this process!

Now she insist that we go on for the wellbeing of the child, and it transformed to something about validating her emotions. Like I said, this is going nowhere since I try to install boundaries, but the therapist and her won't have it since boundaries = anger from their perspective. My L said that since this is not court mandated, it will have little to no impact, but I should have a spotless attitude given her over-victimization. Hence my reasoning on requesting a single session to get things straight so that this doesnt go on forever, because she always have something to complain about with my boundaries. She claims that I do it out of anger, but she is the angry one over those boundaries.