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Author Topic: Co-parenting with an interim NC agreement  (Read 257 times)
RestlessWanderer
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« on: January 08, 2021, 05:10:14 PM »

My uBPDw and I reached an interim mutual agreement of no contact yesterday and agreed to drop my protection order and she her counter-PO. This NC is for 4 weeks. We agreed to terms on supervised visitations 3x/wk and daily phone/video calls on all other days for our son (7). We quickly moved to arrange a visit for last night to make up for the 3rd party supervision conflict with the visit scheduled for Saturday. The visit went well, it was essentially Christmas for our S. I was excited for him to see her and finally have his Christmas with her. It didn’t take long for her to start breaking the NC.
1. RWw told S they would go hiking to see some cool caves on their next visit. NC states all visits take place at home.
2. Several emails sent regarding sending me things like glasses Rx, medication, clothes for S. Not harassment, but violation nonetheless.
3. An email regarding the priority consultation interviews we had day before reaching agreement. Essentially consultant let her know that I love her and think she is amazing (true). She wanted me to know she feels the same way.
4. During video call w/S today they discussed the hike and S told her that I said they couldn’t because of the judge (summing up that I had explained that we had to stick to our agreement with the judge), to which she replied that I was only thinking of myself.
5. At end of video call today she tried talking to me, but I refused. At the end of the call she tells S that she loves him and that she loves me. S insisted that I tell her I love her too. I had to walk away and sat and cried for a moment as they ended their call.
6. More emails asking me how we are going to co-parent if we can’t talk, am telling me to think of our son rather than hurting her.

I told my L about the violations, which she shared with RWw’s L, and threatened to file a motion should the contact continue.

I intend on sticking to the agreement and don’t want to do anything that would cause her to violate it.

Does anyone have any advice on co-parenting with an NC? Are there good resources/strategies on effectively communicating in a way that includes both parents? Or has she essentially lost the privilege of open communication during this interim period? Are there any other ways of communicating other than via attorney that I might suggest to my L?
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kells76
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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2021, 05:21:15 PM »

RW, she is definitely pushing the boundaries. Good to keep monitoring and documenting what she says and does during calls.

Excerpt
NC states all visits take place at home.

Am I tracking that all "visits" between S and his mom take place at YOUR home? I.e., via Zoom or whatever?

Or, at "her home" (the other dwelling on the property, if I'm following)?

...


So, with coparenting a young kid, there needs to be some kind of info sharing between the parents. She is taking that true concept to the limits by emailing you about Son-related things.

Check with your L to see if you can start using coparenting software like Our Family Wizard or Talking Parents. From what I've heard, all communications in the program are monitored and can be used as evidence. That gives her a "legit" way to contact you about "legit" Son needs, and if she decides to abuse the software by messaging you "I love you, I told Son to tell you I love you, blah blah blah", that's automatically documented.

I think it would be less expensive than having all comms go through the L's.

...

Excerpt
I intend on sticking to the agreement and don’t want to do anything that would cause her to violate it.

Yes, YOU should stick to the agreement.

There's nothing you can do that would "cause" her to violate it.

Only she can choose to violate it.

Make sense?

All the best to you and S;

kells76
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RestlessWanderer
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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2021, 06:12:20 PM »

Kells,
Per the NC I have physical custody at all times except for her supervised visitations (which are to take place exclusively at her home). Our homes were defined in the NC, both on the property (50’ apart). Due to the proximity and the layout of the properties we can’t go within 10’ of the homes (this permits me to essentially be anywhere I need to be in the property except within those 10’).

The zoom calls occur when S is with me (location undefined, days/times/duration defined).

I’ll look into the software. Obviously utilizing L for comms adds up $$$
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« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2021, 06:31:48 PM »

Did your lawyer agree with you dropping the protective order?

I think you need to look into the parenting app thing asap.

Who supervises the visits?

She's definitely pushing the boundaries, and I will candidly tell you exactly why I think she is and will continue to do so. I think she thinks she "won" by threatening her own po which resulted in you dropping yours (this is strictly what I think she thinks, true or not). She does not believe the "rules " of NC are serious nor does she believe they apply to her.

She's going to keep pushing to get you to drop every boundary until she gets unrestricted communication and contact with you and your son, without her having to make any changes to her behavior.
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GaGrl
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« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2021, 06:57:02 PM »

Get the parenting app ASAP. It records all communications and saves time in documentation.

She will push as hard as she can to return to her previous life. She will disassemble every guideline in your mutual agreement. She will chip away in such small ways that you might not even notice until it's too late.

What happened with the addiction treatment? Is that included? She will protect her addiction above your son. That is worrisome.

You might want to consider documenting violations for two weeks, then reinstate a more formal PO. She will have shown she is not capable of following the mutual agreement.
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RestlessWanderer
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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2021, 07:05:39 PM »

Redeemed, my L saw the outcome of the hearing yesterday as a major win for me. Though the NC drops the level of violations into the “civil” realm, it still bears the possibility of contempt of court or arrest for violations. So, the conditions essentially mirror the PO. My L feared that the judge may have dropped both POs and left me without any protection. The judge was happy with the NC. My L feels that agreement favors me in the eyes of the court as well. Not to mention RWw’s behavior during the hearing forced the judge to mute her (constant interruptions and attempts to explain things away). My L felt RWw behaved like every addict she’s seen in the 1000+ trials she’s had and in her 5years in family law. We will have the same judge for the divorce as well.

Visits are supervised by RWw’s sister-in-law. I agreed to her based on the knowledge that we work for the same employer (a ntnl lab which has a pretty low threshold for bad behavior), she understands the difficulties of marriage to members of that family, and I think she can keep S’s well-being in focus. I had some reservations, but in the end I felt that she would be a good choice given the limitations.

The visitations may be altered by the court. The priority consultation appears to likely require drug testing and counseling.

I’m already looking into the apps and wondering if there are more options or if the members here find the two mentioned by Kells to be among the best.

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« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2021, 09:38:32 PM »

Redeemed, my L saw the outcome of the hearing yesterday as a major win for me. Though the NC drops the level of violations into the “civil” realm, it still bears the possibility of contempt of court or arrest for violations. So, the conditions essentially mirror the PO. My L feared that the judge may have dropped both POs and left me without any protection. The judge was happy with the NC. My L feels that agreement favors me in the eyes of the court as well. Not to mention RWw’s behavior during the hearing forced the judge to mute her (constant interruptions and attempts to explain things away). My L felt RWw behaved like every addict she’s seen in the 1000+ trials she’s had and in her 5years in family law. We will have the same judge for the divorce as well.

Visits are supervised by RWw’s sister-in-law. I agreed to her based on the knowledge that we work for the same employer (a ntnl lab which has a pretty low threshold for bad behavior), she understands the difficulties of marriage to members of that family, and I think she can keep S’s well-being in focus. I had some reservations, but in the end I felt that she would be a good choice given the limitations.

The visitations may be altered by the court. The priority consultation appears to likely require drug testing and counseling.

I’m already looking into the apps and wondering if there are more options or if the members here find the two mentioned by Kells to be among the best.



Okay, I see her strategy, and that may be the best outcome at this stage. Definitely continue to document. Can you get copies of the NC order in writing, signed by the judge, to keep on you at your mom's house in the event that she shows up there again and tries to enter?

I believe the two parenting apps mentioned by Kells are the two most recommended here. You can search threads to see if that is correct, but those are the two I remember most on these boards.

The benefit of the apps is, as mentioned, that they serve as automatic documentation of her communication and will contain records of any violations.

If you have the app, you can most likely block her number because you will have an alternative method for her to communicate about matters strictly related to your son.

I would stay on the lawyer about the drug testing. My ex was granted supervised visitation providing he could pass a drug test first, which he has not been able to do in three years. The addiction issues should be addressed and it's good that your lawyer is experienced and recognizing behaviors that are common in addicts.

If possible, you may want to advocate for what is termed "therapeutic visits", especially if drug use is confirmed through testing. This is usually done at a local child advocacy center or set up through juvenile court services and the supervisors are usually social workers that deal with children/parenting/child abuse services. Their observations during supervised visits may carry weight if they are used in court proceedings because they are professional third parties that work with children.
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RestlessWanderer
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2021, 06:17:27 PM »

Today I was outside with my M and S visiting with my brother and family. RWw saw us outside and yelled from a distance that she was going to be leaving and asked that S and I go inside when she drove out. When I heard her start up the truck I took my S inside. We saw the truck pull out so we went back outside. Unfortunately she had stopped where I couldn’t see her and was putting her trash in the dumpster. My S saw her there and ran over to talk to her. I didn’t know what to do so I just let it happen. RWw then called my M over to tell her about some Christmas gifts that she was going to send up. Then S called me over to help carry a dry erase board RWw had handed them. RWw started talking to me asking me to go fix some things in the house. Then she started talking about us, saying that I shouldn’t be doing this to S and that she wanted to do couples counseling. I told her that I wasn’t going to violate the agreement. S got upset because he wanted me to go give her a hug goodbye. When she left S was very upset and mad at me, calling me mean, not fun, and not cool. Obviously I understand that he was feeling emotional and was trying to hurt my feelings. All I could tell him was that I made an agreement with the judge and I didn’t even write the agreement. I also told him that I was sorry that I couldn’t explain any details, but I wasn’t going to break the agreement. That has been my consistent reply throughout this ordeal.
After she left she sent me a string of texts. She was asking to work to fix this. She said that I shouldn’t use S as a pawn just because I want a divorce. She claimed that S asked her if this was his fault because he threw the remote. She said she was sorry for saying that she was using heroin again, but she has passed her drug tests.
I feel many emotions right now. I’m sad because my S is hurting. I’m mad because she is trying to talk to me and doesn’t seem to accept that she is to blame for this. I’m confused because I don’t want to hurt her but she’s leaving me no choice but to be cold and stonewall her right now.
I wish I could explain to her why this is happening, but I doubt if she would accept the responsibility even if it was spelled out to her.
She is being selfish by acting this way and not just letting the process play out. She could be controlling herself and ensuring that interactions with S are healthy. But by doing things the way she is she is causing things to be harder.
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GaGrl
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« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2021, 10:41:39 AM »

What you observed is first-hand experience of what happens when your STBX has access to your son and to you. She currently is showing no ability to control her behavior under the terms of the agreement -- and you see what it does to your son. More and more, you are seeing evidence that STBX can not be allowed to violate the agreement.
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2021, 09:28:26 PM »


What has your L said about the trespassing incident, forcing her way in the home (from your Mom's point of view)?

Your Mom is landlord to a drug user?  Right??  It blurs lines for no contact and the rest (as you just found out)

Have you gotten copies of police reports that documented her forcing her way in your Mom's home?  Or was it not in the reports?

I think you are in a good position and I do see what your L was thinking about getting "something strong" versus risking having nothing.

That said, if she is not "perfect" within two weeks, I think you need to refile the PO or whatever other action your L says you can take to enforce the agreement.

You and your son should not have to alter your activities so you wife can come and go.

Hang in there..stay strong.

Best,

FF
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2021, 05:48:34 AM »

Maybe she passed drug tests, maybe she didn't.  Perhaps it depends on what tests were administered.  Were they random tests without advance scheduling?  You can't trust what she says.  Unless you or your lawyer see the results you can't be sure either way.

As one member stated years ago, he knew when his BPDex was lying, her mouth was moving.  That may be an exaggeration but the point is that without independent verification you can't default to trusting her words.
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RestlessWanderer
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« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2021, 01:53:33 PM »

Maybe she passed drug tests, maybe she didn't.  Perhaps it depends on what tests were administered.  Were they random tests without advance scheduling?  You can't trust what she says.  Unless you or your lawyer see the results you can't be sure either way.

As one member stated years ago, he knew when his BPDex was lying, her mouth was moving.  That may be an exaggeration but the point is that without independent verification you can't default to trusting her words.
I have to remind myself that I was fooled before. I was assured that there was nothing to worry about. I was told that she was taking and passing drug tests. I know that I can’t trust her words. It’s hard, but I’d rather be proved wrong with clean drug tests. And as my L pointed, even clean and sober, RWw may still act like an addict, especially if not in therapy/counseling/treatment.

FF, my L is advising we hold off on that for now. It may end up being worked out in the settlement. Not forcing her out right now shines well on me in the courts eyes.
I understand where you’re coming from, but I’m trusting my L right now.
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formflier
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« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2021, 05:15:01 PM »

FF, my L is advising we hold off on that for now. It may end up being worked out in the settlement. Not forcing her out right now shines well on me in the courts eyes.
I understand where you’re coming from, but I’m trusting my L right now.

I'm ok with this.  Your L has thought this through and is considering the impact of kicking her out and of letting her stay.

You are set up to be the good guy here.

"Look judge, we could have kicked her out and choose not to, yet she did x, y and z" 

I see what your L is thinking.

Perhaps ask/propose this.

Have your Mom (the landlord) send a warning letter about trespassing and drug use.

That way you could add in...in the future, even after warned and having the mutual NC order she did a, b, c.

Again...big point, your L is considering it and is "spending" that option to gain goodwill (which I am in support of)

Oh yeah...documentation of the trespassing incident?  Do you have the reports..are they clear?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2021, 07:04:28 PM »

There are ways that people pass drug tests when they shouldn't. A hair follicle test is the hardest to fool and would show intensity and frequency of usage for about 4 to six months.

And yes, even an addict without active use can still behave like an addict. Furthermore, behaviors of addicts greatly resemble bpd.
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RestlessWanderer
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« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2021, 08:10:52 PM »

FF, I have not obtained the records of the trespassing. It has fallen off my radar with all that is ongoing and the info I’m compiling for my L. I will try to remember to ask L about it tomorrow.

I am redeemed, I couldn’t agree more with what you said. When my thoughts reminded me of how I was duped before. I gained some confidence in letting this play out rather than believing her insistence that she’s not using. I know she knows how to beat a UA, and I know she can play a doc like a fiddle, and I definitely know that she knows how to manipulate me.

The NC is my armor that will protect me from myself (referring to my kindness vulnerability) and from her.
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« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2021, 10:40:07 PM »


I non-emergency call to Sheriff's office should help you figure out how to request them.

They might even be able to do the requests and/or send it to you via email.

Keep up the good work...you are on the right track.

Best,

FF
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