Is there another way?

[RestlessWanderer]

As my uBPDw and I live under the conditions of a mutual NCA and are moving towards divorce it feels like things are moving too fast. I don't regret filing for a PO when RWw got mad enough to yell at our S about missing remotes. She claims I escalated things by coming into the room to see what was going on. She also claims that I further escalated things by taking my son's side and essentially mocking her for getting upset about the remotes. She seems to feel that throwing the remotes at us because I "escalated the situation" is justified. She also feels justified in hitting me because she claims that I "bear hugged" her when she came at me after throwing the remotes. She claims that she told me she was using heroin just to hurt me.
She fears that divorcing this way will cost too much and will end up making things harder in the end. She now wants to try some sort of family counseling that, at a minimum, will address co-parenting. She feels that I'm making moves to "kick her onto the street."

What I want most of all is for her to realize that her anger is what is behind all of this. I don't think that our marriage can be saved at this point. She is too quick to anger. She feels that I am behind her anger. But she has lived a lifetime feeling justified anger. Whereas I have lived a lifetime free of conflict, save for this relationship. I know that I am imperfect, and these flaws have the potential of causing conflict in any marriage.  Due to my open sharing of these recurring arguments, my therapist believes that any of my angry reactions to the constant barrage of horrible insults is within normal behavior of a healthy person living in such a toxic environment. But I stand by my belief that any of these issues related to my flaws can be addressed calmly and productively in a healthy relationship, and lead to healthy and natural personal growth.I don't see that ever happening in this relationship, which is one of the main reasons I am ready to end it.

Is there another way to resolve this dissolution of marriage other than letting lawyers dictate our moves? Are my fears of not being able to peacefully live 50' from each other justified? Are my fears of her eventually escalating her anger towards our S justified? Is there a possibility of peacefully reaching a settlement and co-parenting, and if so, how? Is it possible that I am completely minimizing my contribution to our situation (I really don't think so considering how peaceful I am by nature)? Am I being foolish for even considering anything but a swift end to the marriage?

I want this to be fair, free of cruelty, and, most importantly, healthy for our son. Is that even realistic?

I know that I have a ton of questions here. This is an overwhelming situation, as it has been over much of the last 8 years. I just don't want to live like this anymore. I wish I had someone to help me know what to do. Thankfully BPD family is full of people that can relate to my situation.

[Upsidedownlife]

"Are my fears of not being able to peacefully live 50' from each other justified? "

I would think so.

Although it is not your responsibility to make sure your soon to be ex keeps to the no contact order ( and her breaches may put you legally in a stronger position over  time) it would be extremely difficult for anyone to be living so close together in your current circumstances.

Especially as you can see each other going about your daily life.

You mention your mobile home is on 9acres your mother owns - is it possible to relocate one of the mobile homes somewhere else on the property ?

Can you put any fencing up to create a private yard?

Whilst these things may not stop the intrusive behaviour they create physical boundaries as well as legal ones and may give you all space whilst the process takes time.
Also makes the breaches very clear for what they are.

This may also allow your son to to see a new normal of his parents not living together and remove the "accidental" visit/communication opportunities from your daily life

[RestlessWanderer]

I'm thinking of staying with my mom for an extended period of time. Her house is over 100yd from where my W is currently living. This house is bigger and allows for plenty of privacy. Plus, my S can be with my mom if I need to do be in a meeting or something. The days that I have to go in to work I won't have to wake my son to drop him off, he can sleep normally. It's nice to have an adult to talk to as well, especially one that doesn't constantly criticize me (to put it lightly).
From reading other similar posts, I just need to stick to my boundaries and make it clear where these boundaries are. I understand that RWw will challenge these boundaries, so ensuring that I make it clear what they are and when they've been crossed is the important thing.

[formflier]

I want this to be fair, free of cruelty, and, most importantly, healthy for our son. Is that even realistic?
 

RW

I'm sad to say that you want for this to be "fair" (and all the rest) are in fact not realistic.

How can you or the system be fair with/to someone that claims their heroin use is because of someone else?

How can any sort of counseling be productive is one party is not able to "see" their part in this?

Last...I can't imagine how she can continue to live on your property and/or periodically care for your son unless the "issues" that have been unaddressed...are addressed.

Is there any evidence so far that she is able to address any of her problems?  (seriously...pick one).

 

Stay strong...you are in an enviable position compare to many men on this website.  Do you understand that?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

When I began my divorce from my ex husband, a substance abuser who was violent, unfaithful, and financially irresponsible, I consulted a land use attorney, with the thought of writing a contract where he could live on the acreage I purchased from an inheritance, where I was building a house.

All my friends told me that this was a very bad idea and the attorney was skeptical and began the process creating some preliminary documents which he had to sign.

Before the process got very far, he had found the most aggressive divorce attorney in town and I got a referral to a divorce attorney from the lawyer I had been working with. Prior to that, I’d plan to file a collaborative divorce and had been working with LegalAid.

Those who told me to make a “clean break” were absolutely right. I’d worried about my ex, what would happen to him, how he’d manage to take care of himself, etc., but I wasn’t thinking about all the violence and trauma he’d inflicted upon me over the years.

That your wife is using heroin should disqualify her from being alone with your son...ever. That she is living on your mother’s property and doing that...she needs to go. She has made her choices. Now is time for her to accept consequences from those choices.

[RestlessWanderer]

I have come to terms with the fact that even through divorce, I will never be able to completely remove her from my life. I think that creating a contract or some sort of legal agreement stipulating the conditions clearly is a way to show compassion, but build in plenty of safeguards that can be protections with consequences if violated. It has been made clear that I am willing to move swiftly to protect my son. And right now she’s at a disadvantage should she do anything to further jeopardize her parenting rights.
Based on what I’ve read on here limiting contact via something like Talking Parents, can add a bit of a safety net.
Including provisions requiring taking part in a drug treatment program, including clean drug tests and counseling
I would want my L to help write up this agreement.
I know that there is nothing I can do to prevent her from BPDish behavior. So I think that the best I can do is work out a contract that can create and clearly set boundaries. And by using talking parents any attempts to break the agreement would be documented.

[RestlessWanderer]

I’ve also thought about how RWw reacts to the world around her. If she feels threatened, then she will bring out her claws and fight to win, by any means necessary. If she doesn’t feel threatened then her actions reflect that. That being said, I think working together with the guidance of lawyers can be productive and create an environment more conducive to cooperation. This ultimately can create the best agreement for our S.
If I treat her like she’s a psycho, I’ll likely get that. If I treat her like she’s reasonable, I’ll likely get that.

By agreeing on terms laid out clearly in a contract (or something similar) and setting it up so interactions are monitored and create accountability for both parties.

[formflier]

I have come to terms with the fact that even through divorce, I will never be able to completely remove her from my life. 

Hey RW.  I'm concerned about all these contracts and things.  I too used to thing that clearly documenting things/writing things up would "solve" or "help" the BPDish issue.

Here is the reality.

You cannot remove her from your life through divorce. 

She can remove herself from your life and from that of your son and there is nothing you can do it about it.

Said another way, if she keeps making the choices she has been making the legal consequences of that behavior continuing is that you are removed from each others lives.

Your only part in this is to decide are you going to exercise your legal rights and protections (and to an extent, your Mom is involved with this...but let's focus on you right now.)

Is there a chance that consequences lead her to reform...yes there is a chance.

Here is the "Math" that helps you determine the chances.

The more you hold her to consequences, the higher the chance that she reforms.

The more "grace" or "fairness" that you give her...the less chances that she will reform.

This is a perfect place to pause and consider whether or not you believe this.

And...maybe some nuance...do you "understand" it, but are not yet ready to "believe" it.

Has something happened or changed in the past few days?   

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Are you and/or your Mom seriously considering allowing an unrepentant drug user abuser (and I could add things to this list)..to continue living 100 yards from you on your Mom's property?

Best,

FF

[Waddams]

Here comes the Waddams typical harsher opinion. Your STBX is using all kinds of FOG to try to manipulate you into taking your foot off the gas pedal. She knows she screwed up big, she knows her becoming violent has given you an advantageous position, and she is scared to death because she knows she could be on the really short end of the stick in how the divorce plays out, both in terms of financial settlement and child custody.

Understand this very clearly - she is worried about having it stuck to her because in reversed roles she would be looking to stick it you as harshly as she could. If you let up on her in any way, you will be only inviting her to more opportunity to flip things around and find a way to screw you over. I can't tell you on this site and on others how many men I've seen in your position that "let up" and end up divorced and in significantly worse positions than they would have been had they stuck to their guns. I am one of them.

There is nothing you have posted that shows any kind of true remorse or understanding or accountability on her part. The only thing you relay is a person that is screaming "...but I shouldn't be held accountable for the damage and hurt I am causing to him! I should be allowed to hurt him!"

It's hard to throw off all the FOG and see it for what it is when you're in your position. I was there once in the past too. It's not your job right now to ensure things are fair for everyone. It is the JUDGE'S job to do that. Don't take your foot off the gas in this, let your lawyer advocate and fight for you. If you STBX ends up with the short end of the stick, well then maybe she's getting what she earned for herself after being abusive and continuing to be non-repentant about it. Fair is not always equitable.  Sometimes equitable is getting screwed as a punitive measure because it's a deserved and earned consequence.  If that's the outcome for, that she gets what's coming to her, then that's what happens. I advise you to let your lawyer run this show, don't go for family counseling, go for what sets YOU up as best as you can be coming out of the divorce.

There is only one response that I'd advise you give to her at this point:  "Talk to my lawyer."

Editted to Add:  If she's using heroin on your mother's property, your mother has justification right now to evict her. I would ask your mother to do that post haste. The more physical distance you can create from her, the better. And specifically ask your lawyer about RO provisions involving drug use as they relate to custody, visitation restrictions, etc. Putting in drug rehab requirements and all that is great, but these people don't follow the requirements. I'd just keep it simple, visitation by non-family supervision only. Court officer recognized social workers, with your STBX responsible for all costs associated with supervision, and supervision to only take place at said social worker's place of employment.

[RestlessWanderer]

Here is the "Math" that helps you determine the chances.

The more you hold her to consequences, the higher the chance that she reforms.

The more "grace" or "fairness" that you give her...the less chances that she will reform.

This is exactly what I was getting at. I have no expectations of anything changing her BPD behaviors. That’s why I agree that clearly spelling out the conditions/consequences to enable, or at least move the arrow towards, healthier/positive co-parenting.

I’ve learned that there’s little that can be done to keep her from being triggered. But I think it would be a good idea to avoid doing things that I know will trigger her.

She’s lost a son already. She nearly lost this one too. Holding her accountable and spelling out the consequences I think will look to her like a win, but the clear consequences will make it easier for me to move swiftly and harshly should the agreement be broken.

If she can prove that she isn’t using, and has to continue showing that, that’s good for everyone too. If she was just saying she was using in an attempt to hurt me, that sucks too, and wouldn’t be surprising either. But that’s a little different than actually using.

I don’t want to feel like I’m being forced to make decisions without thinking of everything. I have to maintain a relationship with her due to our S, so trying to do it peacefully, with protections and using avenues to ensure accountability feels like it’s not taking my foot off the gas. It feels like I’m setting myself up for a more amicable end to things and making moves towards a healthy co-parenting relationship.

[GaGrl]

When you talk about a legal agreement that specifies the ways you will interact (or not), co-parent, etc. -- what you are really talking about is the Separation Agreement (or whatever your state calls it) attached to your divorce action. This is the behavior for which the court will hold both of you accountable.

Maybe you aren't ready to think of things in that way. Maybe starting to think in terms of a divorce and property/custody agreement will give you more clarity on what you want your life to look like in the years ahead.

[RestlessWanderer]

GaGrl, I think we are talking about the same thing. I am a little lost in this process, but it sounds like what I’m wanting and what you described are the same thing.

[livednlearned]

I have no expectations of anything changing her BPD behaviors. That’s why I agree that clearly spelling out the conditions/consequences to enable, or at least move the arrow towards, healthier/positive co-parenting

It's sad to say this ... I think when you move the arrow towards something it isn't healthier/positive co-parenting.

It's protecting your son from her pathologic parenting.

And creating a set up in which you can move forward in your life without having to resort to legal action every time she backslides.

The heroin abuse alone makes it unlikely she will rise to the occasion of healthier co-parenting, especially when there is underlying BPD trauma. She may love her son. She may have periods of time when she's a loving mother. She will not make good decisions on his behalf with the degree of consistency he needs to be and feel safe.

I’ve learned that there’s little that can be done to keep her from being triggered. But I think it would be a good idea to avoid doing things that I know will trigger her.

What would you avoid doing that might trigger her?

[formflier]

OK...so you are doing more long term thinking? 

When is the hearing for the current protective order?  How are you doing being prepared for that.

I agree with others (I think) that a parenting/separation/divorce agreement should be super specific on things that have been problematic in the past AND there needs to be some sort of automatic consequence written into the agreement (to the extent this is legal in your state)

Am I on the right track here that you are doing more long term thinking?

I would write out here a behavior that you want "stopped" by an agreement, then we can kick around how to properly write those up and then get them blessed by your attorney.

Then...it's a separate matter about how/when to present them to the other side.

Best,

FF

[RestlessWanderer]

I think I am still affected by the FOG. I am reading Splitting while I am living through this. I am feeling a bit overwhelmed by all of this.
I feel like I'm not in control of this after living for so many years with her and having my decision making influenced by FOG, emotional blackmail, and listening to BPD logic, and now feeling that I am just doing what my lawyer says. My T used a great analogy last week: my marriage has been like a really loud rock concert, and now I'm outside but my ears haven't adjusted yet. Using that same analogy, I feel like I can't hear myself thinking with the past noise still affecting me and now more noise. I know the difference between both sources, but I am still feeling drowned out. I don't even know if that makes sense, but its just so damn hard.

FF, to answer your questions: I am definitely thinking long term. We had a hearing last week (I posted about in another thread), the TPO was dropped (as well as her counter-order, which was a work of fiction with some truth sprinkled in) in favor of a mutual no-contact order. Essentially the same conditions, with supervised visits in her home. The NC is to last 4 weeks, but the priority consultation could result in different conditions arising (drug treatment, anger management, ongoing therapy, etc.). We have a preliminary divorce hearing in mid February.

I will take you up on working on behaviors to be addressed. I need to breathe a little now.

[defogging]

To answer your original question - no, I don't think there's another way.  The agreement you're seeking to curtail her behavior and have consequences is the parenting plan which will be spelled out by the courts during the divorce (or agreed upon during mediation with the courts overseeing it).  I doubt trying to arrange something without lawyers involved would ever work, given what you've described.

What is happening to you right now and what happened during my divorce is very similar.  In the beginning my exPDw went on the offensive and tried to accuse me of everything.  It went nowhere because it was all unfounded.  When that didn't work she changed her tactics and asked to reconcile, even writing a letter to me.  She tried this multiple times, but I always responded through my attorney that I wanted a divorce.  I never changed my path because after all she did during the marriage and in the beginning of the divorce, there was never a single admission of her behavior or an apology for it.  You need to watch their actions and pay little attention to their words.

Even after the divorce was final, she was attempting to woo me back into the relationship.  Calling me by pet nicknames, being very sweet, saying that she's not giving up on our family.  However, I was aware of her attempts to poison the kids against me at the same time.  I stayed steady and waited it out.  The sweetness lasted a couple of months and then the first time I stood up to her, said no to something, and held her to the parenting plan she immediately turned back the other direction.  At the next child exchange I only got the cold death stare from her, one of her forms of intimidation.  She's been ice cold ever since (which is fine, that's what I'm used to).

I think the attempts to suck us back in are just a simplistic reaction to not getting their way.  At a base level they don't like what's happening, so it needs to stop.  Step 1 - Being aggressive and intimidating backfired, on to step 2 - trying to charm us back in.  I haven't heard of any attempts to reconcile with a PD working out well unless there is action on the PDs part to improve themselves (seeking out therapy and really working on themselves)  Far and away, most stories I've heard about reconciliation result in things being okay for a short while and then it gets far worse than it was before.

I think you are correct in your last post that you are still in the FOG right now.  That's normal, so don't beat yourself up over it.  It's good that you recognized that.  Keep staying strong and eventually the FOG will lift, little by little.

[I Am Redeemed]

I know you want her to recognize her part in this and have some kind of life changing epiphany that will mean that you can extend grace and stop feeling guilty about setting hard boundaries.

My guess is that you are second guessing your approach because somewhere in your head, consciously or subconsciously, you are trying to figure out how to orchestrate this epiphany in her.

That is out of anyone's scope of ability. Someone who has lived a lifetime of justified anger, as you so aptly described it, is unlikely to snap out of such an ingrained pattern.

Addicts justify everything. Add bpd traits and that deepens the groove of that behavior.

She's completely unstable and it will take a lot of treatment for separate issues before you could begin to even consider the notion that she could parent your son.

If she doesn't pull it together, coparenting may never be a thing for you. You will parent, she will have visits, and that's as far as it will go without significant changes. What you need to do is stop worrying about being fair to her and reframe everything as protecting your son,  regardless of whether it suits her, triggers her, gives her an epiphany, or results in no change from her. Her response is her responsibility and you cannot organize a safe, easy landing for everyone involved in this situation.

[RestlessWanderer]

An epiphany would be nice, but I’ve abandoned that hope.

I’m feeling that everyone that is advising me is basing an assessment of her on my biased and incomplete depiction of her. It’s incomplete because I don’t have all of the information and because it’s impossible to tell the story of 9 years in a limited number of posts I’ve written. I value the advice given here, but I fear that the experiences of all of us skew our perspectives towards a somewhat jaded and therefore biased position.

Again, I have no desire to reconcile. That’s off the table. I don’t want that at all and have closed that door.

What I am trying to do is ensure that I am creating the best life for my son. Maybe that is a lofty goal with a BPD mom. But like it or not, I will always have to have a relationship with her. I want to start off the best way possible, and set it up so that her mistakes don’t upend our life.

I don’t feel guilt for setting boundaries. Guilt isn’t factoring in anymore.

I’m struggling with hearing my voice among the many supporters I have. I value all of the input I’m getting, don’t get me wrong. But I’m having a real hard time feeling like I have agency with so many people pushing me one direction and at a speed that’s making it very hard to think straight. I know that momentum is on my side, and I don’t want to go backwards at all. I can only think of a sports analogy here. Top athletes have a way of slowing down the game in order to perform at their best. This happens within themselves, as the actual speed of the game is completely out of their control. They do this by quieting their minds and relying on training and preparation. I’m working on quieting my mind, meanwhile I’m training and preparing. But the game is going on and I have to keep up. I don’t even know if that makes sense, it’s the best I can do right now.

[ForeverDad]

What I want most of all is for her to realize that her anger is what is behind all of this.

You're setting yourself up for disappointment and perhaps even self-sabotage.

The anger is only one facet of all that is dysfunctional.  This is mental illness compounded with the addictions, and who knows what else.  While maybe she could get a grip on herself long enough to appear calm, you know that there are other issues just as important to address.

You can't fix her.  As is often stated here, she has to want to fix herself.  She has to be determined to stick with therapy long term, not just a few sessions.  You can't do that for her.  (Remember, a good portion of the problem is that she's sensitized to you, anything you say gets drowned out by her perceptions of the baggage of the relationship.)  BPD is a disorder that is more evident the closer the relationship.  Others may notice something 'off' but that's because they aren't in the middle of it all, behind closed doors and in private scenarios, watch out!

[RestlessWanderer]

Foreverdad, just because I want that doesn’t mean I think it will happen. The patterns are clear, she won’t admit what the real problem is. I’ve been looking deeply into our problems for nearly three years now. It took me a while to see that things weren’t my fault. I was able to see my role in things, and accept that responsibility as well as work towards improving what I had control over. But I came to see things more clearly.
That doesn’t mean I can’t want her to own up. I can even hope she will. But I don’t expect that to happen, ever. I’m not banking on it at all. I’m going to be linked to her the rest of my life because we have a son together. I’m always going to want and hope she changes. Of course I am, especially for the sake of our son. I wish she could find peace for her sake too.

It’s sad to say, and I’m an optimist, I don’t think she will ever get better. I don’t think she will ever put the work in. I think it was Cat Familiar or I am Redeemed that said in another thread of mine, what she needs is an intense long term inpatient treatment. That would probably be the only way she could ever find improvement. That’s not happening. Ever.

[formflier]

As long as you are clear in your mind that you holding firm to accountability is the BEST chance for her to improve...then you will likely be ok.

You want to guard against impulses to "be nice" or "be reasonable" or "show grace", because our (your) calibration is most likely WAAAY off for the appropriate use of those things.

Plus...using those things is a PRIMARY manipulation tactic on their part.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[defogging]

What I am trying to do is ensure that I am creating the best life for my son. Maybe that is a lofty goal with a BPD mom. But like it or not, I will always have to have a relationship with her. I want to start off the best way possible, and set it up so that her mistakes don’t upend our life.

I’m struggling with hearing my voice among the many supporters I have. I value all of the input I’m getting, don’t get me wrong. But I’m having a real hard time feeling like I have agency with so many people pushing me one direction and at a speed that’s making it very hard to think straight.

Think of it this way.  We're not pushing you down a path, but we are strongly cautioning you against going backwards without seeing any real evidence of improvement by RWw.  I'm in the same boat as you, I will always be connected somehow to my exPDw through the kids.  I feel like the best thing I can do is protect the kids from her behavior as best I can.

Here is something to think about.  My lawyer explained that the parenting plan is there for when we don't get along.  He said that exPDw and I are allowed to co-parent however we want, switch days around, arrange rides for the kids with each other on opposite nights, etc.  If something goes wrong I can default to enforcing the parenting plan.  I've opened the door a few times to allow her to show improvement, but she goes right back to her dysfunctional behavior so I close the door again.  (eg, she promises to pick up the kids from an activity on my day, never shows up so I have to go get them, then she says I didn't communicate properly)  I'm willing to do that when the situation is safe to allow her the opportunity to show improvement, but with the parenting plan in place I can remove her from the equation when she fails to behave.  Again, watch their behavior, don't listen to their words.

Personally, I'd love it if my exPDw started acting like a good co-parent.  It would be great for everyone involved if she could be reliable and stop being manipulative.  We'd get along better, the kids would be happiest if we got along, and she'd get to see the kids more.  But, because of the behavior she chooses, I have to continue enforcing the parenting plan.

The parenting plan is just a set of rules so you both play fair in the real world.  You can always relax that a bit if things are going well, but I strongly recommend you get the rules in place before thinking about relaxing anything.

[Cat Familiar]

Think of all of us as the cheering section in the stadium. We are yelling support for you, but you’re the player in the game and it’s up to you to decide the strategy.

There are some givens: heroin use, mental illness, rage, violent behavior.

Yes, we do not know your wife. However we understand these givens, having experienced them in our own lives.

We caution you, based upon our own experiences and know how easy it is to feel more compassion for the person we once fell in love with, than it is for ourselves.

However you have a son and you’ve demonstrated that protecting him is your priority. Think of this—you also need to protect his father so he can be the best dad to that precious son.

[CoherentMoose]

Hello. 
Lots of discussion in this thread.  Seems to me you are attempting to set initial boundaries with co-parenting (or parallel parenting) plan with your STBX while you are still in the FOG and coming at it from your "nice guy" core value.   

It's a difficult trade-off between your "nice guy" core value with your "Mom and her son" core value.  We all want to have our children to have a reasonable relationship with their mother...provided it's safe to do so.

With the keywords of addiction and violence, my thoughts are to set very wide and airtight boundaries initially (with her off the property), and then loosen them with demonstrated safe behaviors by her.  It's easier to relax boundaries with demonstrated good behaviors than it is to tighten the boundaries with additional negative behaviors.  You are in a good position to dictate the starting set of boundaries and you may not be in a similar situation in the future. 

Once sobriety and consistent safe behaviors are observed during supervised visitation for set a period of time, you can then relax the boundaries.  Taking the hard line now with her off the property will also give you time to get out of the FOG and Crazy to make decisions from a more stable emotional place.   CoMo

[livednlearned]

I’m working on quieting my mind, meanwhile I’m training and preparing. But the game is going on and I have to keep up. I don’t even know if that makes sense, it’s the best I can do right now.

 

This is one of the most profound insights I've read from someone going through what you are, especially at this point in time when things are still taking shape.

Yes, work on quieting your mind, and by extension, managing emotions.

I admire you for insisting on quiet for yourself, and slowing things down some so you have agency in this.

It took me years to understand what you are figuring out right now.

 

[RestlessWanderer]

Wow, thank you livedandlearned

That means a lot.

This is such a difficult process, especially because it feels like I’m being mean. But all the advice on here really is helpful. It’s just sometimes difficult to to hear my own voice and come to a conclusion that feels truly organic.

I was able to finally do that this morning.

[MeandThee29]

This is such a difficult process, especially because it feels like I’m being mean. But all the advice on here really is helpful. It’s just sometimes difficult to to hear my own voice and come to a conclusion that feels truly organic.

It does feel mean. It feels mean because you're a kind person. Good people struggle like this during divorce.

But ultimately you have to focus on the big picture and what is fair and right for all parties long-term. There were times that I told my attorney, "Just give him everything so he leaves me alone."  No, that wasn't fair and right. It was right in a long-term marriage to ask for certain things that a judge would automatically award according to the law. It was right to ask for other things that weren't specified in the law but would allow me and my children to go on in a reasonable manner.

The reality is that divorce is never perfectly fair to both parties. My attorney joked that the goal is to have both clients somewhat but equally unhappy if you are negotiating.