10 yrs court ordered sup. vis - BPD Mother treatment based on false reality

[Sleepless1]

First let me say that I am glad this forum is available. I will start by saying that I have children with a bpd/aspd and cptsd woman depending on who you ask and when. The reality is she is bpd and very much so. 12 years ago, I was faced with a false felony assault charge, and a future that had my twin children raised by someone I believe had a mental illness. I recorded every conversation and with some luck, the false accusations and illness was revealed within the court system as both criminal and custody cases were simultaneous. I have had 10 years of somewhat respite with only some threats and contempt charges in the courts. The mother in this case has a long history in the system dating back to her teenage years. This captivating person and I conceived twin boys. I had no idea what I was going to face in the near future. Without a doubt, the most testing and trying experience in my life. Court ordered psychotherapy for a minimum of one year and supervised visitation which occurred erratically for the first five years. She has tried to change venue, contempt, modification...etc with no results as her reality is distorted or false. The twins are now just teenagers and I am faced with impending legal actions again. The biggest problem here is that she is not willing to allow counseling records to be viewed, claiming HIPPA, which is a privacy act for records, as an excuse. I believe the 10 years of counseling she has received is for an alternate reality, as it appears she has not provided her counselors with the court required collateral documents. These are In depth Psych Evaluations and two family evaluations. This data reflects a true history of her life and experiences with alternate perceptions and many dishonesties along the way. The recent communication I have had with her indicated to me there has been no progress towards recovery. Her counselor letters to the court indicate a complete recovery from PTSD. Again, the problem here is she is being treated for something that is not real. She is the constant victim and survivor of her unfair circumstances. There is also a very real possibility of Munchhausen with this person as she has a myriad of life altering illnesses and some history of medications such as digitalis which were apparently used during DBT treatments and it was suspected were used for psychological reasons after testing in an emergency hospital visit.
  Sorry to ramble here. The question I am trying to ask is... It is anticipated that she will enter a courtroom with several (3-5) summary letters of her treatments and recovery from ptsd. One of which was just this last week from a psychologist. Again, the problem is that she has the ability to fool or pass any test (some psychologists have found this concerning and suspicious) Regardless, I do not believe she can verify any reasonable amount of therapy with the court ordered supplied background information. In effect, she has not progressed in any way and her current distortions confirm this.
  I have a meeting with her family in a couple days. Of course they are advocates for her and rightfully so. The problem is, it is not about her or me. It is about these two children and I am trying to figure out a way of convincing them that there is still a concern for problematic behavior. I am trying to get them to participate in her treatment and recovery. I am trying to get everything organized.
  In a perfect world... I would force her to receive the therapy which was ordered by the court over ten years ago and provide these thirteen year olds, the education regarding their mother and her illness they need to survive it. She wants to begin supervised visitation again, she wants to modify the parenting plan, and also file for contempt as I have just recently reneged on her renewed interest in visitation after 5 years of none, until she can verify she is complying with the court ordered counseling. She has done everything but that in an attempt to subvert what she is unable to do... Any help or input would be a blessing.

[PearlsBefore]

Page 50, "Most researchers maintain that Borderlines cannot be cured, they agree that they can learn to control their behavior and significantly improve the quality of their lives. Some studies suggest that a minimum of four years of therapy three to four times a week is needed, and that the typical duration  between six and ten years."

Dr. Christine Lawson, "Understanding the Borderline Mother", a book you should have, highlight, and provide necessary excerpts to anyone trying to understand the situation.

You can see reviews of it at https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=53779.0

Don't do anything to put yourself in jeopardy of contempt; what is your concern with her having supervised visits? It would likely be healthy for your children to have such contact with her - and if it's supervised...what's the harm? I'd err on the side of advising you to relax a little so long as she's seeking supervised visits - there's no need for the children to be NC with her.

[ForeverDad]

One important question would be who would have the task of supervising?

You of course cannot do it, nor should your trusted friends or family get involved either.  And you can't trust her friends or family to be responsible with supervision either.  Only recognized and trained professionals might be up to the task and yes even they might get schmoozed.

Another question would be how those services are paid.  You shouldn't be stuck with even a portion of the bill.

Of course this is just a thought experiment for now, but do be aware of what you would want done should court entertain that concept.

[Fian]

My take is she is your children's mother, and she should be able to visit her children.  While there may be problems with the time she spends with your children, you can't cut a mother out of your children's life and expect everything to be fine.  Her spending time with your children will assure your children that she still loves them and values them.

There may be some value in preparing the kids before the visit to minimize any damage that she might do (and in most cases this board would probably say no to that).  It is important to remember that children need their mother, and a mother needs her children.

[kells76]

Hey Sleepless1, interesting situation you're in. A few details stood out to me:

She wants to begin supervised visitation again, she wants to modify the parenting plan, and also file for contempt as I have just recently reneged on her renewed interest in visitation after 5 years of none, until she can verify she is complying with the court ordered counseling. She has done everything but that

Want to make sure I'm tracking, because this actually sounds like you're in a strong position.

So, she's not demanding unsupervised visitation?

Were the 5 years of no visitation also 5 years of no contact between her and the boys? Or were there phone calls/letters/emails/anything?

If she didn't communicate with the boys at all for 5 years, did she communicate with you at all?

What documentation is there that counseling was ordered by the court?

Was it a very specific type of counseling?

I.e. ... does she believe that she can present documentation of "some kind of counseling" and have it meet the court ordered requirement? Will it? Or is the requirement much more narrow?

...

You've heard the phrase, I'm sure, "give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves" (ok, kind of dark, but I don't intend it darkly). Basically, sometimes someone can demand something, but when they actually get it, they sabotage themselves.

Based on how you've described the situation, you sound like you're in a position of strength to "give her some rope" and let her create her own consequences.

I mean... she can go 5 years without seeing the kids? If she "gets" supervised visitation again, her track record for sticking with seeing the boys isn't so hot.

And, you can also come across as a positive, healthy, solutions-focused dad here.

"Agree" with her that supervised is OK... but put conditions on it. "I agree with Mrs Sleepless1 that supervised visitation, under the following conditions, is acceptable: 1. Mrs Sleepless1 pays for a neutral (nonfamily or friend) supervisor. I will provide a list of 3 supervisors and she may select whoever she wants. 2. Mrs Sleepless1 may request a modification to the parenting plan only after successful completion of 10 [or some other # of] supervised visits. Success defined as: supervisor records no badmouthing of Dad, no manipulation of kids in any way, no emotional breakdowns in front of kids, [etc -- whatever would be best]. 3. Kids also have their own neutral counselor during this time. 5. MrsSleepless1 will participate in the specific court ordered counseling from Document2017, and will not request any changes in the PP or visitation until after Practitioner X and nobody else confirms completion. 5. etc etc etc (these are just brainstorming examples)

You reallllyyyyyy have the upper hand here to "agree" with her on supervised visitation... but then to put the responsibility for it back on her, where it belongs. A normal person should have no problem complying with the above example conditions. She may not... and so it is on her whether or not she sees the kids, not on "you withholding the boys".

A neutral counselor for the kids will be a strong antidote to their mom's dysfunction.

Let us know how things are going;

kells76

[Sleepless1]

  I thank you all from the bottom of my heart for your insightful responses. Let me start by mentioning that there is limited Supervised visitation facilities in my area. The last one we attempted to use 2 years ago was at some distance and the mother had a confrontation with that provided and would not provide services to the mother. A new provider just was located by the mother within an hour away last month. The mother will be trying to modify the parenting plan in the courts regardless of whether visitation is occurring or not. She will supply assessments which states she has recovered from PTSD. Please keep in mind that although BPD is not mentioned in the judgement, it is repeatedly mentioned in the evaluations as the more serious problem that the mother faces. She last saw the children 5 years ago under supervised visitation which required counseling for the children because of a sympathetic employee and that facility shut down. ( Mother was allowed to alienate both myself and the legal system) I guess my objective is two-fold. 1) I believe she is not ready for any sort of modification and that unsupervised visitation would be extremely problematic. 2) I would love for her to receive the treatment as ordered by the court which her supplying collateral documents was intended and not the alternate reality which she is being treated for. I do not believe she has provided the collateral documents and she will not release counseling notes. Mother is trying to circumvent this requirement by claiming hippa privacy act that they are protected. I do not intend to withhold supervised visitation from the mother. I am using this moment to persuade her to follow the court order. Also, I am looking into some education for the children to prepare them for the visits and her illness.

Court order reads:

"The parenting plan shall not be reviewed again until the Mother has engaged in serious long term psychotherapy for a minimum of one year with an appropriate provider able to address problems provide by the mother including Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, ongoing identification as a victim to exclusion of more healthy self image, manipulative behavior and defenses, credibility, mood instability and emotional maturity.

Mother is required to provide her psychotherapist full and accurate copies of the evaluations in this case provided by Dr. xxxxxx and both custody and parenting plan studies provide by xxxx xxxxx from xxxxx county court services.

Verification of this treatment requirement is to be provided to the Father and the court prior to mother seeking any relief or modifications in the above parenting plan.

The parties agree that if different types of counseling are recommended for the Mother in the future, as an alternative to her current treatment, her requirement is to complete that alternative treatment in a satisfactory manner."

[livednlearned]

I agree with kells76 that you seem to have the advantage here.

Given how hard it is to get courts to see what's actually going on in these relationships, I'm guessing it was quite a circus there for you during the divorce and custody process. I hope you've been able to find some peace this last decade. I'm sure it wasn't easy what you went through to get that outcome.

If it were me, I would say no to everything requested and offer one small task with reasonable consequences for non-compliance.

As small as, "Mr. Sleepless1 will not be given a copy of the records, however, Mr. Sleepless1's attorney and her attorney will be given access to health records, and of course the judge may review them." I gather this is a pretty standard way to get the information while protecting privacy.

Or, "a forensic psychologist may be hired to review the records and report to lawyers/judge. Mr. Sleepless1 can select 3 forensic psychologists and mom can choose from those 3. Dad has x days to submit the psychologists and Mom has x days from then to pick one and x days to initiate contact and begin the assessment. This process should take no longer than day/date and lawyers can submit to schedule a hearing as early as day/date."

I don't know how to paraphrase it simply, but in my protracted legal battles, I found it was most effective to put the problematic behaviors on display in front of the judge, if that makes sense. The judge took things more seriously when the problematic behaviors were acted out in his court room. I did that by putting reasonable requests out there for the judge to consider, a non inflammatory and pragmatic perfectly normal thing to do, which seemed to draw out my ex's fight mode. So even though he sought to negotiate a better order for himself through chronic (and bogus) motions to modify, it was clear he had no intention of following what the judge ordered.

Another solution is to do exactly what you suggest -- request that the kids are in counseling and that the counselor have access to mom's therapist or something that is, again, reasonable and perfectly normal under the circumstances.

For what it's worth, I also noticed that family court seems to be a world unto itself when it comes to other laws. I was not permitted to see my ex's psychiatric evaluation, either. I could have parts of it read to me in my lawyer's office but I wasn't allowed to see it in its entirety.

That is, until my ex blurted out in court that I could have a copy so I would see how wrong I was. I believe he experienced stress-induced psychosis and perceived his own reality about the report, which everyone in the courtroom treated as his right to believe.

[ForeverDad]

I am holding right now a Gary Larson (Far Side) mug picturing a red-suited creature prodding a guy with a pitchfork.  Do you feel in a quandary, that there are no good choices before you?

The reality is that you'll have to transform your thinking... What is a "less bad" scenario for you?  You can have a "least bad" goal but you can also have other "less bad" goals too.

The reason we discuss the possibility of supervision is that the court may lean that way.  Doesn't mean we're not supporting you, we are.  But we're mindful that no one can easily predict how it all might work out.  So we're covering the bases, so to speak.

One perspective to keep in mind is this, the court might put some trust in the experts' opinions and when they do that, they look at the options already in the court order.  They are possibly inclined to proceed to the next stage, trying out supervised visits.  But one huge failure of the court is that typically when they proceed to loosen up a little, they don't allow for going backward to prior years of minimal contact.  So when things do blow up - a real concern - then the order typically won't specify what to do and it all has to go back to court to address that.  That could take more months waiting on your day back in court.

What I'm saying is that when you're in court, you and your lawyer need to include (or try to include) in the court's order a way to put a pause on supervised visits as appropriate without waiting months for court to approve doing so.

[GaGrl]

One option might be specific "reconciliation therapy." This is focused on bringing the estranged family members back togethet. It is more targeted than other therapies. I think a therapist trained in reconciliation therapy would know to look for certain behaviors.

[kells76]

Sleepless1, you can also check out threads by member "worriedstepmom". She, her husband, and her stepdaughter have recently had to deal with the daughter's uBPD mom demanding all kinds of things (more visitation, different therapist, etc) that sound like what your boys' mom demands.

Every time WSM & her husband make a reasonable offer (like, no more changing family therapists -- it's this one or none, and FT is required before proceeding to more visitation), the mom absolutely implodes, blames, etc, but CANNOT follow the most basic instructions.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if, like LnL said

The judge took things more seriously when the problematic behaviors were acted out in his court room. I did that by putting reasonable requests out there for the judge to consider, a non inflammatory and pragmatic perfectly normal thing to do, which seemed to draw out my ex's fight mode. So even though he sought to negotiate a better order for himself through chronic (and bogus) motions to modify, it was clear he had no intention of following what the judge ordered

when you make VERY reasonable proposals with VERY reasonable consequences ("outcomes") baked in, that your sons' mom can't do it, and then -- if you have the consequences built in to the order -- you don't have to go back to court, you don't have to deal with her until she can/will comply.

[worriedStepmom]

Supervised visitation *can* harm the children, especially if the disordered parent is a master at manipulation.
 With young teens, this is a true risk - they are figuring out life and themselves, and the manipulation can cause severe damage.  (My SD13's mom gets points for sheer doggedness, but her attempts at manipulation are fairly easy to see through, so the damage is easier to address and mend.) 

One option might be specific "reconciliation therapy." This is focused on bringing the estranged family members back togethet. It is more targeted than other therapies. I think a therapist trained in reconciliation therapy would know to look for certain behaviors.

My friend has an ex with NPD.  Her ex claimed to be in court-ordered therapy.  Judge forced him to provide details and discovered the therapy wasn't covering the right things.  ex ordered to try again.

Judge eventually ordered reconciliation therapy, with the goal to get back to one hour a week supervised visitation.  Judge had to *specifically* order that the reconciliation therapist get access to ex's mental health records AND the counseling records of the children.

I'm sure you are consulting with your lawyer already to make sure you protect your kids without putting yourself in legal jeopardy. 

We have a step-down order.  Most people have a step-up.  It requires the other parent to do/not do certain behaviors.  For you, it might be useful to ask for a step-up order.  She gets no contact until she proves X, Y, or Z, then a reconciliation specialist must determine it's okay to do X hours of supervised visits a month, then if mom meets 85% of her obligations, mom moves up to Y...but if mom meets less than 50%, she moves down to Z.

Ours also includes a list of specific behaviors that will automatically trigger a lower level of visitation.