So I've Decided, How to proceed, Guilt and Giving last chance

[Serenitywithin]

So I have drawn up the paper to divorce my BPD wife.
4 Kids 15,12,11,and 3. If you have read any of my previous posts, My wife has been emotionally abusive especially to the older girls for a long time. To the Point where the two of them are openly asking me when we can leave, they cant stand being around her but are both acting like her best friend to try to keep her from getting mad...
Neither of them can stand anything she does even when she is not in a bad mood at this point. I have both of them in Therapy for about 3 months now. The 11 yr old Son has always been the golden child and has never been the target of her rages so I can tell he is effected by her bpdish behaviors and the lying and twisting of words, but I am worried about how angry he may be with me once I do file on the wife. That is part of what has been making me delay in the process.  The 3 year old is now Mom's emotional rock and she is overly involved and enmeshed, and will constantly in front of the other kids say oh I jsut love you so much, I am so glad you respect me so much and treat me the way a kid should treat their parents. ( She does this when she is getting into one of her BPD moods)
She used to jsut rage and yell and scream all the time, for the last 2.5 years since as a family we have voiced issues with her rages, she is now much more passive aggressive and will do and say things to imply her feelings at the kids and myself by talking to the three years old where everyone can hear.

So that is the background. I have had papers drawn up since week before Thanksgiving. I wanted to file then but thought about waiting until after all the holidays to not ruin them for the kids. Then Thanksgiving happened and she Raged a bit and threw some fits and made all of the kids not want to be around her I could write a book on the events of that terrible day. I told My Therapist that for me I needed to have one last conversation with her about self reflection and that I was hoping to get her to see she needs to be in therapy before I file... ( I know she will not react any differently than she ever has to me trying to reason with her. I have also told her this and asked her to go back to PSYCH several times in the last few months but it is always during an argument or during one of her moods)...
I feel Guilty about wanting the divorce because I do love her and I just want her to get some help so she can eventually have a good relationship with her kids.So I want to have one last conversation while she is in a good mood and not dysregulated so I can wash the guilt and know I tried one last time.
So after Thanks giving I picked a night and got a voice reorder setup so I could have a conversation while she was in a good mood. Then about 5 min prior, she gets text that her Grandpa(more like father)  died first week of DEC. So I decided to wait till after funeral to not be a jerk or insensitive. This was two weeks later and the week before Christmas. My T and the Kids T agreed we could wait till after Christmas. So I waited but we got exposed to covid and had to spend Christmas at home which triggered her and she went on a rage at me in the morning right after gift opening with the kids. So me and the kids enjoyed the rest of the midmorning watching a move as a family minus her who was upstairs pouting.  She came down later and apologized but the kids left the room when she came back down. So that say was a bust. Then she was triggered the next three days to our 15th Anniversary on the 28th. She did not talk to me that day till bedtime when she all of a sudden wanted sex, which I think for her is a transaction and once it happens all is forgiven. Then the next few days were like nothing happened. Spent newyears at home and she was mad the girls wanted to go to their Grandma's house instead of staying home with her.

Skip ahead and I have been gearing up to have this last conversation with her now and every day I think she is in a good mood we will do it tonight , Something happens and she gets triggered or something with one of the kids has come up.
I was going to do it 2 days ago because she wanted to have sex in the after noon and I figured that since that for her means everythgin is great? Maybe the conversation would go over better, then I had a crying three year old all evening so that went out the window.
Yesterday was ok and so far today has been good. So wish me luck on the conversation about self reflection and hoping that when I talk to her that I and the kids are in therapy and we are in therapy because of things that have happened and some of her behaviors that it does nto completely blow up and the God can bless the conversation and show me wisdom and patience in my words as we talk.

At this point if she decides to go get help and I mean really commits I may change the papers to legal separation. If the conversation does nto go well and she try's to turn it on me like she usually does saying I need help I will let her know I love her and am not giving ultimatums and end the conversation but will then go ahead and file for the divorce.

I am super scared to file either Document because of what the future brings. I know my two older Daughters will not go live with her if given a choice and I think my son will be angry with me. The 3 year old does well with just me as Mom thinks she does all the care taking, but I do most of the baths and all of the cooking and most of the laundry. I am fearful for what the future brings.
My Lawyer has the fileing asking for Full custody with supervised visitation and said we should the a GAL for the kids. She is also filing for a psych eval right out of the gate as well. She thinks with all of the Documentation and the older Girls experiences that I have a good shot at the GAL granting me Full custody. But the week before Christmas the Girls Therapist asked me about the state of this process and told me that she works with GALs all the time and that in our case she will be recommending that I get SOLE custody and said my girls need to get out of the environment sooner rather than later. Those comments make me breathe easier but I know the courts can go the other way with things. My   biggest fear is my kids being forced into 50/50 and I would not be around to buffer things between them and mom on her weeks?

All of that being said I dont want to cut mom out completely from their lives. I want her to be a part. I think in the beginning of this a limited part to give them some space to heal but I am hoping Wife will go get help once confronted with losing everything and after some hard time in therapy can start having unsupervised visits with the kids. I was asked the other day if she gets help would I want to re-start with her, I honestly dont know the answer because I do love her , But I am not sure how I could ever trust that she is not putting on a show or façade  until  we were back together.

I am also fearful of the short term because there will nto be anything forcing her to move out or letting me move out with the kids, she will hold on to making me stay or calling cops that I am kidnaping? My oldest Daughter also is afraid of what will happen when I do this because she is afraid mom could hurt herself or the younger kids. The lawyer did tell me that as a last resort if needed we could get order of protection, but my wife works at the school district and would likely lose her Job... ( That is another thing I will never understand , is that she is wonderful with other peoples kids but not our own). It could get wierd and ugly if I have to live here with her as the lawyer said with covid it could take 8-10 weeks for psych eval and temp orders. So I could send the two older girls and even the son if he wanted to get out to my moms short term to live which the girls T already recomended. But if she wants me to leave, and leave her with the 3yr old I dont think I could without making it look like I am not afraid of her having the kids and the petition for full custody with supervised visitation being thrown to the side. That is the part I am most fearful of.. She also works at our kids school so right now she drops the olders ones off at their build ings and then she works at sons buildign and 3 yr old rides bus from her building to pre-K.
After school the kids ride bus to her building and then ride home with her .. I can do drop off and pickups or all kids but the 3yr old can ride bus to and from school if I get a temp custody order and then I only have to pick up and drop off little one.

I am also unsure if I should even tell her I am filing or wait till serving day when she will get served? The T and even the L seem to think waiting until filing and using a special process server when I can control a bit on when she gets served might be best? Any opinions on this or anyone have experience with this?

Sorry for the rant I am all over the place but am nervous about having this talk this evening and what it means for the decisions I have made and the things I will have to set in motion.

[Cat Familiar]

It’s a very difficult place you find yourself in.    However you know what you have to do and you have your daughters’ full support.

There will be a “right time” and you will know when that is. For now, you’ve got plans in place.

If you haven’t yet read Splitting, it’s a helpful book for divorcing a partner with BPD.

Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a BPD

[formflier]

How do you feel about the "team" that is in place to support you and your children, after the separation starts?

Best,

FF

[Serenitywithin]

Cat: Thanks,I will pick up splitting and read it. I think I have read every other book recommended on this site. I chickened out the other day and did not get to it and she fell asleep before the kids did, I wanted to wait till kids were in bed and we were alone to have the talk about fel reflection and tryign to get her to see that everyone else in the family is in therapy and there is no bad JUJU from doing it too and try to get a light bulb to go off that we are all in it because of her actions and behaviors that we try to cope with.

FF: I feel good about support team in place. My family is ready to help and with four kids I may need some of that. I currently do most of the house chores , Cooking cleaning, Laundry for all six of us. Most of the stuff that I do is also to keep her from getting into moods and alot of it is dealing with her messes. She is the most unorganized , organized person I know. (She has bins in the closets labeled with what it in them, But if I dont put the stuff in them it never goes in them. It is like she knows how to organize so well to set something up to be perfect but cant actually follow through) SO FF I think that once I Separate I will actually have less to do around the house and may even enjoy more free time with the kids when we are not being hounded to do this or that. But in the beginning I have alot of Fear of her reactions. The fact that cohabitation may need to occur for a bit until a judges orders come through because I will not have a lot of recourse to take the kids and just leave. Not to mention she works at the kids school.

But My parents have offered their home  if I have to sell mine as part of he settlement, until I can find a place, They have a 5 bedroom 4000 Sq foot ranch, so there is room. My grandparents have a home a mile from there as well that is unoccupied most of the year as they are snowbirds to florida and it has been offered up as a short term solution as well. My mom is the safe place for the kids emotionally right now as well. SO if we have to move in with her for a bit while I find the right place, it could be good for them.

[formflier]

OK, check "family team" seems solid and in place.

Tell me about the professionals that are in place?

Best,

FF

[Serenitywithin]

FF,

I have a T, I also see my pastor in T sessions he is a PHD and a licensed Counselor. He has even told me it is past time to do this for me and the kids. He has told me I a ma better man than he and there is nothing more I can do to Help HER.

I have a lawyer Big Firm and she has the paperwork ready to go to File for Divorce, then to also file for a psych eval on the Wife, and then also a motion to file for a GAL for the children.

The kids Counselor has also confirmed this needs to happen soon and has said that once a GAL is appointed that she will work with them on the custody stuff but that for now she will Have to recommend I have Sole Custody.

So I have been seeking counsel from many sources who all seem to confirm the decision.

Even with all of that I se her in a good moment like last night where she is playing with D3 and being a good mom to her, Problem is it can swing the other way in 5 minutes time.. I HATE the FOG I feel in preparing, and starting down this path. I also have some fear after reading some others stories that even with evidence the Court can sometimes do the wrong thing? I also have a friend who is goign through this with her Babys Dad after 3 yrs he decided he needs more custody now he has a girlfriend. The court is about to give him more custody even though he has never done any parenting or paid any support. Stories like that make me hesitate.


Thanks FF for making me type this out. when I hear it or see it I am reminded of the issues and the severity of the situation when others are backing my decision.

[formflier]

Thanks FF for making me type this out. when I hear it or see it I am reminded of the issues and the severity of the situation when others are backing my decision.

OK, lots of people are nudging (perhaps a kind word) you in a certain direction.
 
Are there people recommending you take another course of action?  Do you understand their reasoning?

Please be deliberate about a "gut check".  Yes, put your detail brain away and look at the big picture... that deep down thing that's telling you things...(gut, conscience...whatever you want to call it)

What is it telling you and for how long?

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

There will be a “right time” and you will know when that is. For now, you’ve got plans in place.

* Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a BPD *

I will usually comment that if you're waiting for the perfect time to end it, it will never happen.  Just as you've had delay after delay after delay.  I think Cat is saying you'll find your right time when any remaining feelings of guilt or obligation are replaced/overwhelmed by concern for yourself and especially concerns for the children.

It sounds like your older children are really 'done', what is holding you back?  What do they see and experience that you're struggling with?

I told My Therapist that for me I needed to have one last conversation with her about self reflection and that I was hoping to get her to see she needs to be in therapy before I file... ( I know she will not react any differently than she ever has to me trying to reason with her...)

I feel Guilty about wanting the divorce because I do love her and I just want her to get some help so she can eventually have a good relationship with her kids.So I want to have one last conversation while she is in a good mood and not dysregulated so I can wash the guilt and know I tried one last time.

Skip ahead and I have been gearing up to have this last conversation with her now and every day I think she is in a good mood we will do it tonight, something happens and she gets triggered or something with one of the kids has come up.

You're a Nice Guy, like many of us Nice Guys and Nice Gals here, and you're trying to give her one last "fair notice".  Really, after all these years, do you think that will go well?  If all you expect is some Blaming and Blame Shifting, Danger Will robinson!  Even if she agrees to start therapy, she would have a lifetime of behaviors to address.  Also, what if she starts but then quits or claims her therapist says she's okay after a few sessions?  Or what if she doubles down and tries to get ahead of your legal action to make you look worse than her by making allegations?  (My ex did that.)

At this point if she decides to go get help and I mean really commits I may change the papers to legal separation. If the conversation does not go well and she try's to turn it on me like she usually does saying I need help I will let her know I love her and am not giving ultimatums and end the conversation but will then go ahead and file for the divorce.

Frankly, Legal Separation is a half-measure, it's not a practical solution.  My lawyer told me long ago that in nearly two decades of practice he had done only two LS and neither involved any level of conflict, the couples had just grown apart.  One chose LS over D simply because divorce would have ended medical insurance coverage.

When I asked my lawyer about LS he said I would end up having two Custody Evaluations (one for LS and again for D) and the second time around my stbEx would have learned which behaviors to hide.

I am also unsure if I should even tell her I am filing or wait till serving day when she will get served? The T and even the L seem to think waiting until filing and using a special process server when I can control a bit on when she gets served might be best? Any opinions on this or anyone have experience with this?

You are imagining that being a Nice Guy and giving her an opportunity to rush around and sabotage your plans won't encounter some road bumps?  The real world is that she'll likely overreact with such news no matter how it is done.  So your choice is whether you're willing to give her time and opportunity to find some way to sabotage your plans.

I commend you for getting your older children into counseling, a very wise decision.  Expect that a large part of your spouse's overreaction may be along two aspects.  (1) She may allege you're controlling or abusive.  (Like, you're controlling and yet you want to get away from her?)  Document that she is the one behaving poorly.  (2) She will try to manipulate and pressure the children to side with her and against you.  (My ex tried to get my preschooler to support her allegations of every type of child abuse.)  I believe that would be the toughest challenge since divorce takes months and possibly up to a couple years.

Though you can file for an optimal custody and parenting schedule, it's up to the court to decide how to apportion it.  Too often that first hearing setting a temporary order is just a brief one, yet it is so impactful.  For that reason, have your documentation with you so that during that too-brief hearing you and your lawyer can speak up and give reasons why you need to be the 'primary' parent for the welfare of the children.  And why the temp order can't be a default one since there are serious issues, most temp orders aren't modified during a divorce and the final decree could be up to a year or two later.

[Serenitywithin]

Thanks Forever Dad,

Your correct on all Points.

I have 3 years worth of journaling and recordings of bad behavior along with what the children would say to back all of that up.

I try to be a godly man and have trouble reconciling divorce in my mind and with my beliefs. I also thought for the sake of the younger children calling it a legal sep instead of divorce might be easier to digest before taking the next step to divorce.

But I get your point I have been the nice guy for so long that I have trouble going the other way with it. The FOG is thick and I am afraid of what lies ahead. I am a little Consumed by it right now. Trouble concentrating on things I need to do and the like.

[DefiantRaspberry]

But I get your point I have been the nice guy for so long that I have trouble going the other way with it. The FOG is thick and I am afraid of what lies ahead. I am a little Consumed by it right now. Trouble concentrating on things I need to do and the like.

it can be a brain fog, too. It is so hard to switch off that "nice guy" personality that got us here in the first place. I think that's what therapy should be good for.

[Serenitywithin]

So 3 times in the last week, I have said to myself that  I am going to have conversation with her today about self reflection with her. I build up to it and something happens that evening or the 3yr old will not fall asleep before I get the chance and then she is asleep so I can have the conversation.
I simply want to confront her one last time to see if there is any openness to her seeking therapy. I want to give her this last chance to look inward and  see if there is any shred of self actualization that I an d the kids are going to therapy because of her?(Obviously I wont come out and say that) I know , I know this is the nice guy in me still trying to help her but for  whatever reason I have gotten in my head I need to try this one last time before filing. I am not going to discuss the filing or giver an ultimatum as I have in the past because I would like to help guide her to self realization that she is wrecking our kids Psych and causing me a lot of pain.  I do still love her which is why I think this is so hard. I have also made the decision that even if she gets help, there may be no going forward for us, but I would like to have her get healthy so maybe she can have a good relationship with her kids the oldest two especially since they are already DONE with her as they put it. I don't know if that is as much for me or her as much as it may be for my girls because I do not want them to be deprived of a good relationship with their mother. I think everyone deserves to have a relationship with their mother that they can enjoy..

I guess long and short is I feel like I am just so in the guilt phase and also feeling an obligation to help her that I am being a chicken about even having the conversation or Filing for the divorce which I know needs to happen. God I hate this feeling of knowing that I need to do it but not being able to step up. My girls are asking me now if I have had the conversation yet because it was planned a couple of times and then it fell through or I chickened out. My kids have to be my number one priority here and I know this intellectually but I also know that having an intact family is good for them. ( I know that even thought that is good for them, in the current state it is not better for them)

Sorry Ranting, Obsessing! Just trying to get myself to this final step and I feel I am in anguish. High BP, headaches thinking about this every day.

[lostinvt]

Serenitywithin

I understand.  I feel like I'm just behind where you are at.  Married 18 years, with a 15yo daughter.  Have papers, but have not filled them out yet.  My daughter has been in therapy for about a year, I just started about 3 months ago.  I'm now stuck in the middle with my wife telling me to talk to our daughter because of her attitude towards her mom.    Tells me the only solution is for me to talk to her, and tell D it's a problem.  I tried to explain that it probably wouldn't help... gently suggesting better approaches (less controlling), etc... but she keeps going back to how D treats me differently, and it's b/c of bad cop good cop discipline and stuff like that.  Crying that our D leans into my hug saying good night, and D barely touches mom when saying good night.

In my case there are no rages really, not much yelling.  But all very controlling, manipulative, and passive aggressive.  And my daughter feels it.  I haven't even broached the topic of separation with D and I don't think it's really right to do so.  maybe?  I guess she should know at some point, but I'm stuck in the FOG and don't want to scare her, or poison the relationship with mom any further.  I don't even know if it would be a relief to her getting away (I think it would), or if that's not even in her head and would be devastated.  I'm not sure where she's at.

I love my W too, and want her to get help.  She's seeing a therapist but I don't think she's talking about ANY of this stuff with them.  I worry about self-harm if/when I leave with D.  At the same time, I think things are too far gone between us.  There has been too much hurt to ever go back and get to a true healthy relationship.  I'm not sure she's even aware of how bad things are and I don't want to surprise her.  I have said I'm not sure if I want to stay, but that's been the extent of that conversation.

All that to say, I feel your pain.  I truly hope it ends soon for you.  As was said  before there will be no good time to do it.  And in the mean time you're dealing with this pain everyday, and that takes a big toll.  You're also giving away more and more of your precious time, and giving up on who knows what opportunities you'll have after getting out and healing.  I wish you clarity and courage to see it through for you and your family.

[Cat Familiar]

It’s noble of both of you to hope for a better relationship between your wife and your daughters, but this is completely out of your control.

My BPD mother’s controlling nature alienated me from the family and unfortunately my father sided with her. Now, as an adult, I realize he was between a rock and a hard place and he saw her 24/7, whereas I was away at college.

Whether or not your wife will improve her relationship with her children is totally up to her. Usually people with BPD believe that others are at fault for relationship difficulties. Whether or not you can persuade her to do therapy is another minefield. And even if she does, she will need long term intensive therapy to make lasting changes. So there’s a lot of “ifs” in the equation and best not to have unrealistic expectations.

The best thing a dad can do is to be there for his daughters. Be supportive, be a good listener, be a role model. Yes, your wife may feel jealous that you have a better relationship with your daughter, but don’t throw that away to try and appease her.

[Serenitywithin]

lostinvt
Thanks

Married 16 years and my oldest is 15, the next daughter is 12 and they are both openly asking me about divorce otherwise I would have never broached it with them .

Their T told me I should share the plans I have with them so they will be able to have a little light at the end of the tunnel in knowing I am doing  about about whats going on.

Like you both daughters give mom more and more attitude because they cant stand anything she does. she used to rage, but the last 3 years since doing family counsleing that she walked out on, she no longer yells. she is soo passive aggressive in her manipulations now which I think is even worse.

Sorry your going through it as well It is hard to clear the FOG. I think if we did nto have the 3 yr old it would be a much easier step. She is soo enmeshed with the 3 yr old and uses her as emotional tool. However I know long run that will be bad for youngest one as well.

I wish so badly that our SO's could just se the damage they are doing and decide to get help... Sucks some times.

[Serenitywithin]

Cat,

Thanks

I always appreciate your perspective as a daughter of a mother with BPD. When you post certain things I feel vindicated in some of my decisions. I feel like the wife and I are getting into tiffs over small stuff more because of the boundaries I have set  to keep my relationships with my daughters intact and help them grow. I greive for my daughter because they cannot have that close relationship with their mom that I believe every little girl deserves. I am sorry you did not have that as well, but I am also glad your healthy enough to understand the dynamics and what was happening to you... I never want to be seen by my daughters when they are adults as having not tried. So I want to be a good model in how to stick with someone and not give up when it is tuff, but I also want to teach them that you should never be treated this way and put up with it. It has been a tight rope that I have walked for some time and I really believe cant be walked any longer. The good news is they both understand the dynamic in the home and are ready for a change.

I think I am too, it is hard and scary to take this last step and file the papers that are all ready in -place.

[livednlearned]

I wonder if the time to tell her is not when all is calm/good, but when she is seeking a transaction to correct what happened (e.g. seeking to have sex with you)?

It's going to be hard for her to hear the ways in which she is messing up when she's not dysregulated, even though that may be the easier time for you to approach her. Having BPD, she's likely a very in-the-moment person, focused on that moment and how she feels right then. Her: The feelings (and the fall-out) happened yesterday, it's over, forgotten. Why bring it up now when everything is fine and ruining it for me.

What if, instead, when she is seeking to repair through sex, you were to gently tell her that it's hard for you to recover from these things and pretend your feelings aren't hurt. "I'm in pain right now. I see the kids feeling pain. I've been feeling this pain for a long time and I have to change how I manage it. Having sex is a short-term fix that isn't helping the long-term problem."

Have you done that before? What would happen if you were to say something like this to her now? What would you want to say next?

Sometimes it can be easier to see the natural consequences of our smaller boundaries play out than trying to convince the other person to change.

I sense that you are putting off this tough conversation not only because it will change everything, but because all the eggs are still in her basket. Even in a moment as big as this, your strength is conditional to what she does at a moment meant to symbolize how you reclaim it.

[ForeverDad]

How you as an adult and relationship partner perceive and handle things is probably different than the children as minors, as relatively powerless persons and as developing personalities.

A few sources have been quoted as describing the situation for the kids from their perspective and needs, I think Dr Phil was one.  I searched for the earliest quote and this was my result:

A century ago it was standard for father to be the 'head' of the family.  Unfortunately, some fathers were not exemplary parents.  A few decades later it became popular to claim mothers always were the best to parent the children, it was called "The Tender Years" doctrine.  Unfortunately, some mothers were not exemplary parents either.

A few decades ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action, as appropriate, will enable your lives or at least a part of your lives to be spent be in a calm, stable environment - your home, wherever that may be - away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

In short, you can choose to make the best of a lousy situation, whether you stay with demonstrated improvement, "stay for now" pending improvement or whether you go.  The reasonable best.

Your decisions of course will be affected by your spouse's actions and behaviors.  But it's always up to you to decide what boundaries you will set in your life, what you will do or not do, etc.

[CoherentMoose]

One thing I'd like to chime in with is that while starting the execution of the plan, and even seeing it through to divorce, doesn't always mean the outcome is cast in stone.  Plans can change provided long term hard work is put in and demonstrated behavior changes are demonstrated.  The challenge is to get to a place where one can get away from the pressure cooker and get out of the FOG to make future decisions from a place of calm (or at least some calm) rather than a trying to work while in the middle of the storm.  CoMo

[whirlpoollife]

Helpful advice I read here was to , “Cut the emotions , it’s a business deal now “. 
Write down what YOU do as a parent , bathing, cooking, cleaning, school activities, out of school activities , doctors appointments etc. It can be helpful later for GAL and custody. 
After the  divorce is in motion maybe inform the school but be brief without negative on stbxw.( soon to be exwife)  Others here might be able to give better advice on to handle this.

Just so you know, you have the greatest gift already  ...your two oldest standing behind you. 
Be strong and of good courage