Legal: Disposition of Property of Deceased Mother

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

What to do?

My mom married her husband in 2001. He died on 2003. Due reasons that didn't make sense to me at the time, she put his name as the sole title owner before they married on order for her to avoid taxes. He died in 2003.

She started paying taxes but after 2013-ish, let them pile up to $8k. The taxes were about $120/ month. She called me on crisis (that's BPD for you, she had called me in 1999 days away from foreclosure and I sent money), and I sent money to help, enough to get on a payment plan.

Over 2 years ago, she ended up ward of the adjacent county. The state paid for her care above her social security. I didn't think it worth it to pay the taxes as the property was still in her husband's name and the state might liquidate it to pay for her care. I gave her money a long time ago to go through probate. I recently found out all she had to do was show the marriage certificate. I stopped asking her 15 years ago.

The back taxes to redeem the 5 acres (and a hoarder shack that needs 5 gallons of diesel and a match) are $15k now. The auction was delayed a year due to covid, I think. So I have a little over a month. So what to do? I'm not poor so I don't need the money, but I'm not rich, so doing nothing might foolishly be leaving money on the table. He was alienated from his adult kids decades ago, so likely no worries there but of it has to go through probate, so be it.

1. Let it sell at auction and later apply for the proceeds of sale above the taxes owed. That's my right up to a year after sale.

2. Pay the $15k before auction to redeem it from the county. My mom passed two weeks ago. I'm next of kin. AFAIK, his adult kids weren't located. The county located me, as did a cash investor this week.

3. Consult and possibly hire a tax and real estate attorney to lay down my options legally. I think I'll post a shorter version of this on a avvo tomorrow. 

Spending $15k plus attorney fees to possibly net $40k-60k (a rough guess on the property minus the home) might be wise not to leave on the table.  I know the property was also under abatement due to the outside mess. The inside was worse that the hoarders show, no exaggeration.

Thoughts?

[Turkish]

What to do?

My mom married her husband in 2001. He died on 2003. Due reasons that didn't make sense to me at the time, she put his name as the sole title owner before they married on order for her to avoid taxes. He died in 2003.

She started paying taxes but after 2013-ish, let them pile up to $8k. The taxes were about $120/ month. She called me on crisis (that's BPD for you, she had called me in 1999 days away from foreclosure and I sent money), and I sent money to help, enough to get on a payment plan.

Over 2 years ago, she ended up ward of the adjacent county. The state paid for her care above her social security. I didn't think it worth it to pay the taxes as the property was still in her husband's name and the state might liquidate it to pay for her care. I gave her money a long time ago to go through probate. I recently found out all she had to do was show the marriage certificate. I stopped asking her 15 years ago.

The back taxes to redeem the 5 acres (and a hoarder shack that needs 5 gallons of diesel and a match) are $15k now. The auction was delayed a year due to covid, I think. So I have a little over a month. So what to do? I'm not poor so I don't need the money, but I'm not rich, so doing nothing might foolishly be leaving money on the table. He was alienated from his adult kids decades ago, so likely no worries there but of it has to go through probate, so be it.

1. Let it sell at auction and later apply for the proceeds of sale above the taxes owed. That's my right up to a year after sale.

2. Pay the $15k before auction to redeem it from the county. My mom passed two weeks ago. I'm next of kin. AFAIK, his adult kids weren't located. The county located me, as did a cash investor this week.

3. Consult and possibly hire a tax and real estate attorney to lay down my options legally. I think I'll post a shorter version of this on a avvo tomorrow. 

Spending $15k plus attorney fees to possibly net $40k-60k (a rough guess on the property minus the home) might be wise not to leave on the table.  I know the property was also under abatement due to the outside mess. The inside was worse that the hoarders show, no exaggeration.

Thoughts?

[GaGrl]

If paying the back taxes gives you a clean title to the property, it would be worth it. Do you have that assurance, based on the title in your step-father's name? Do you have the marriage certificate?

[ForeverDad]

Likely you can get a certified marriage record from the county office the marriage was registered in.

If your probate process is anything similar to mine* someone would have to file a probate on your stepfather first.  Did he have a will?  Typically surviving spouse gets the home but if no will I suspect it defaults to the surviving spouse, especially considering it was hers first.  Once ownership is transferred to his wife's name, then file her probate case.  Let a lawyer handle all the legal stuff, otherwise you'll get bogged down in the legal matters where you won't know what to do and what to do next.

You do need to go through the home.  Likely they had a drawer, cabinet or safe where their legal papers and more were kept.  Or a coffee can in a kitchen cabinet.  Or a safety deposit box at the bank.  Before hiring a company to cart things away you need to locate any family mementos, heirlooms, old coins, family photos, etc squirreled in the weirdest places.  When my mom died I found grandma's old wedding ring in a plain envelope, quite simple and unremarkable, since gifted to family descendants with girls.  Paying it forward.

* Home in both names, dad died, will ignored, years later mom died.  We had to file and process his will first, then once it was in mom's name we could file and process her will.  Though both did get some nursing home care, home was humble and our state never pursued any legal action to recoup its costs.

[MeandThee29]

These abandoned properties are such a pain. I had a relative with three that were considered unbuildable, "paper" lots. We actually sold one and netted less than $100 and then divided the other two. The estate attorney advised me to stop paying the taxes on mine because after five years, the state just takes them. That way no one inherits the problem.

Given that you don't have much time, I think I'd let it sell at auction and then sort it out. I wouldn't put any of my own money down on the taxes. Given the chain of ownership it might be something you can just do yourself. If you know a local realtor, they might be willing to give you some guidance.

If you have to probate your stepfather's estate and then your mother's to get to the money, it might be fairly simple, just a matter of filing certain forms. Here they have a lot of do-it-yourself probate guides and forms for small estates. Several friends of mine have done it themselves for parents who had very little. It takes time and anything government is a mess right now, but then you're free and clear.

[Cat Familiar]

You are looking at current valuations of real estate; imagine potential values when your children are adults.

Where I live, property values have skyrocketed, since many people have realized that they can work remotely, even when the pandemic ends.

Acreage is valuable. As someone said (Will Rogers?), God isn’t making more real estate. Actually I think it was a line from the Sopranos.

[formflier]

Hey Turkish

It's me...we've "known" each other for a long time.  My advice is hire a lawyer, redeem the property (pay the 15k to keep it from going to auction) and pay some lawyer fees to get the title into your name.

Then I want you to amend you will and create a "testamentary trust" for the benefit of your children and put this and perhaps other assets into that trust in the case of a certain wolf's early demise.

Should you live a long a healthy life, you can still sell or otherwise get benefit from the property and use that for your kids, there is no better judge of that than YOU.

Second best judge of that is the trustee for your "testamentary trust".

OK, there is the broad advice.

Specifics

Quickly hire a lawyer and direct them and their paralegals to do a "title search" like they would to give an "insured title opinion".  Basically they will look through all the records and make sure they feel comfortable "shooting it out" in court that Turkish should be the real owner.

They should be able to finish that before the auction, so you can pay money before the auction to redeem.  Likely best to have them handle that on your behalf so it is done properly.

Then let them handle probate(s)

Then let them handle getting you the deed.

Then let them handle sorting out your will and trusts.

That's going to be a long process after "redeeming" the property.

Last:  As you know, I've done lots of interesting real estate deals.  I once purchased a property where I had to pay several grand to an attorney to have a prior owned be legally declared dead (he had disappeared years before) so I could get clear, insured title to the property.

And I paid these legal fees knowing there was a chance it wouldn't work out. (as in I pay lawyer fees and don't end up with property).  

It worked out..

 

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Dealing with the mess.

Since you would end up being a new owner, your "clock" starts over.  Yes the county will pressure you to clean it up, but you can say "it's only been a couple of months", because you didn't own it before.

I suspect that it would be best for you to go deal with it, at least partially...yourself.  You can figure out what can be dumpstered or otherwise hauled off.

If you are a truck kinda guy, buy yourself a good dump trailer, use it for 6 months to clean out the property and then I bet you can sell it for what you paid for it.  Thereby saving all the dumpster rental fees.

Plus you might be able to figure out when it is NOT fire season and legally burn a lot of it there.

OK, switching gears.

How do you "feel" about the property now, versus a year ago? 

Best,

FF

[Turkish]

Thanks for the input everybody. I'm not on much internet gets fixed on Monday thanks to a big puppy chewing outside wires...

I forgot to mention that a cash investor tracked me down and wants to buy. I'm not sure what his angle would be other than not getting into a bidding war. I sent him pictures of the hoard (I'd have to sign disclosures anyway for a sale).

I looked up several properties (land, no homes) in the county and my guestimate of minimum $60k seems right.

[formflier]

So, I've tracked down several people like this and bought several properties out of estates.

For someone to do this, they have an angle/see value.  I would suggest you take this as validation that there is value there.

Oh, I wanted to add another reason for pushing for the "title search" early (before you plunk down money).

While it's possible (but unlikely) they will tell you that you are screwed and others have a claim to this property, the likely outcome is a good estimate on the legal bill to sort all of this out.

Might be $2k or $6k or?  You can also have a follow up conversation about what parts of the legal work you can do yourself. 

Do you really want to pay a paralegal to post notice in newspapers (and perhaps online) and the assemble a file proving that notice was given for he proper amount of time.

Perhaps you do but it would be an area you could do yourself, save significant money and still have the same outcome.

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

The people who bought my mother's home (sitting on the half of her property that went with the house) said they've been approached and offered more money than they paid for it.

Maybe I should have bought that half at way below the sale price and resold it myself.  But then I remind myself that the other half's recipient, a sibling not on good speaking terms, wouldn't have been forced to provide easement for utilities access.  My decision on that catch-22 was to step back and let the public sale force him to do what I couldn't have convinced him to do.

Some humor...  "Buy land. They ain't making any more of the stuff." — Will Rogers

[Turkish]

I don't know why I didn't remember, but my mom had a safety deposit box that she told me over 15 years ago had her husband's will which left me both properties of she passed.

I called her bank yesterday to verify she had one and they confirmed and that I had access. $200 to drill if I didn't have the key but I found it this morning so I'm taking a day trip Tuesday to drive up there and see what there is to see...

Formflier, the house is a health hazard. Whatever is in there has been picked clean. I entered last February and had to wear a respirator. My mom had original newspapers in a trunk from Chicago when MLK, JFK and Bobby were killed. One of her rescue families raided and destroyed them long ago. I used them as sources for a school paper in the mid 80s. So sad.

In the 80s when we were living on her future husband's property (the 2 acres) she had an heirloom, a gold watch fob made by a distant relative who was in the Australian gold rush and later came to California. It had 3 pressed flat gold nuggets linked by at least14k chains. She hid it under a board in the camper. It later disappeared. I bet it was worth thousands. I later never asked her what happened to it, either she pawned it or it was stolen. He or his brother was one of the founders of Amador County in California during the Gold Rush.

[formflier]

Wow...getting in a safe deposit box that has been closed up for years!  Have you ever been inside the box?

Switching gears

Roger that on the health hazard.  There is a basic decision you will have to make (assuming you save the property) of whether or not you want to examine thing before throwing them away.

So...using a burnpile or dump trailer or dumpsters and renting a skid loader is one way to go, yet you will only have broad memories of what gets dumped in them.

Or..

A more painstaking approach of looking through things for mementos.


Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

Mementos can be unexpected.  My mother passed a few years ago.  Cleaning out the house I found my long-lost medal I'd been awarded for Geometry class when I was a freshman in high school.

Also, she had grandpa's box of papers and there I found his first wife's (our grandma's) simple gold ring.  I made sure it went to my niece since she seems to be the one with female descendants, in a direct female line of descent.

Maybe there's nothing.  It's up to you to decide but yes the lock box is likely to hold a better selection of stuff, could be more than just a couple wills.

[formflier]

Turkish

Thinking of you on your adventure today to go see what is in the safe deposit boxes.

Hopefully you find a will that helps clear the way for you to get the land.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Did you get in the safe deposit box?

Best,

FF

[Turkish]

There was no will as I was told, only some patriot notes Auth my name on them with a total face value of about $200. I haven't bother to look up what they will be at maturity.

I contacted 4 lawyers. 2 didn't respond. 1 said it wasn't his specialty. The other declined the case due to the short timeliness. I guess I should have started this on December.

I'm going to let it go and if I can get $$ above the back taxes later, I'll try. If it's more than $10k, I'll think about hiring a lawyer then if needed. I have more in my company stock than both properties are worth.

My buddy suggested putting a home on it and selling later, but that would be a few hundred k. Fire insurance there is also insane. And building materials are also. Don't get me started on his high permits are in that county...

I'm also not going to remortgage my bay area home for this even though I have over $600k in equity.

In retrospect, I should have never agreed to help with the taxes 15 years ago unless she got herself and me on the title.

I'll keep an eye and see how much it goes up for auction.

I did bury her remains according to her wishes which is illegal here.

[GaGrl]

I certainly understand the restrictions re: insurance. We are in hurricane territory, and our Wind Insurance is 3-4 times the cost of our basic home insurance. Thank God we are not required to have flood insurance in my ward.

It's now a "draw a line down the middle of the page/ pros and cons exercise."

What's best for you and the kiddos?

[formflier]

So how much is it again to "catch up" the taxes?  Roughly?

And then how much per year after that..roughly?

Best,

FF

[Turkish]

$15,1k to redeem the property.

My insurance in the San Jose Bay Area just went up due to the fires and building materials increases.

My friends who live in the same county as my mom's properties had to refi to afford the increased fire insurance.

I'd like to have left my kids properties other than our primary home but if croak tonight, they'll each be almost millionaires given my home equity, stock and 401(k). With my work life insurance, they will be.  I'll be satisfied providing for my kids. That doesn't include SS survivor's benefits which would help them and their mom.  I've done my part. I also realize that part of my decisions are emotional rather than logical.

[formflier]

$15,1k to redeem the property.
  I also realize that part of my decisions are emotional rather than logical.

As in $15,100 and no cents..right?

So if this turned out to be a bad investment...you would be throwing away something less than a percent of your net worth..right?

Emotion and logic do tie together for your money decisions and there are times when people make emotional money decisions and they turn out to be the best or right.

Such as an inventor that really believes in his project and spends the last dollar...then it turns out massively right!  Logic would tell you to make the "safe" money decisions.  

So..imagine FF and Turkish are having beer...I'm buying.  Also I'm obviously a real estate guy...land guy...so you know where my advice is coming from.   Especially "family land".  

And here is likely the "root" of my emotions about this kind of thing.  When I was a teen, my Dad and Uncle jointly owned the farm (they were 4th generation).  It was passed to them in a will "share and share alike" (that's EXACTLY what was written in the will..my Grandfather told the lawyer to pizz off..that his boys would do what they were told)...and my Dad and his brother did.

Anyway over time minor disagreements grew and my Dad started to desire to buy out my Uncle or at least split the farm.  (note..nothing bad..just preferences were different in farming, plus my Dad is the younger...so I'm sure older brother threw his weight around some).  Anywho...adjacent land came up and was like super cheap...less than a grand an acre for prime farmland (when farms were going bust everywhere)   Note..we don't do debt in farming...so we were in a position to buy stuff.

Well, I remember staring at my Dad and pleading with him to buy the land with his brother...Dad made an emotional decision that he didn't want to do "more" business with his brother.  Apparently there was no option for "just" my Dad to buy it...so my Uncle bought it.  (Note as  a teen I was reaching out to people trying to figure out how I could "get in on this" and buy part)

Well a few years back my uncle passed away...my cousins have no interest in farming, really didn't want to be there growing up either...you could tell they were "doing chores"...I was having a blast driving tractors and combines.   Anyway they immediately sell.

Over $8000 per acre...purchase price was a bit more than $500 per acre although over the years people "rounded down" and just said they bought for $500.

In the last years of my Dad's life (he was obviously declining) I was deliberate about a couple long breakfasts per week with him.  Linger over coffee...   One day he starts talking about that land and kinda looked out the window and grumped  "Well..I guess that worked out for them..."

My response was "well Dad...you had your reasons then and from what I saw you were much happier after splitting the farm and buying out your brother" (there wasn't a way to cleanly split it in half, so my Dad got about 2/3rds after buying out some from his brother).

My Dad was also a banker (again multi-generational thing) so you have to imagine a banker looking out the window and saying "that would have been a lot of zeros.."

I figured it out one time and my Dad's decision to not do that "cost" us about $500k (yep..roughly half a million).

Anyway...Turkish, Back to the matter at hand.  

If buying this land or not was really going to impact your finances one way or another...I would encourage you to do "close analysis"...but really, if it turns out you are throwing money away...it's really not going to make a mark..right?

For protection of assets I hold farms and land in different corporations...that's like $50 to $100 per year.  CPA handles it.  Just yesterday I paid an insurance policy with a couple million liability on it for some land (so if somebody trespassed and got hurt)...it was like $300.

So for less than a percent, you can buy this, insulate yourself from liability and essentially "only have upside".

What does logic tell you to do?

What do your emotions tell you to do?

FF is telling you to redeem and not look back.  That's what I would do..but I do this kinda thing all the time (buy out of estates...clear up titles and all that).  

Would I "rather" have all the lawyering done ahead of time..sure and I would if there was time.  There isn't time now.

At the end of the day...be clear and honest with yourself if you are making a logical or emotional decision.

You rock man!..thanks for being so open here and please don't take my advice as "criticism".  I wish my Dad had bought that land (or I had the money to get in on it)..but I was never "mad" about it.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

$15K and it’s a few acres, right? What about holding it for a few years without developing it? I have added a separate parcel of land to my homeowners insurance, just for liability coverage. Also what is current tax base for your property?

[formflier]

And maybe there are two parcels...not to far apart, but just one is behind?   (or I could be dreaming this up)

There is a reason investors were tracking you down...

Granted it's not for everybody...but the cheapest way for anyone to control the property is to pay off the taxes...vice going to auction.

Best,

FF

[Turkish]

I've decided to redeem the properties. It will be about $19k total to catch everything up. There goes my plan to get a new car the end of this year...

The tax base on the 2 acres is less than $1k, my mom's 5 acres, less than $1500/ year. Thank you Prop 13.

I've been in touch with the cash investor yesterday and today. Today he stopped by the property and finally believed that the house needs 5 gallons of diesel and a match (my words), but he's still interested. He told me yesterday that I could redeem it with a credit card. I'm not a multi millionaire like he is but I told him I had the cash. And I slapped myself for volunteering information...

[formflier]

And I slapped myself for volunteering information...

Good to be aware of, but I don't think it's a big deal.  He probably is trying to figure out why the taxes have gotten to the point they are and is assuming some sort of financial hardship.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Do the two parcels adjoin each other?  If not how far apart?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

The local county fire department could help you out during off season training sessions.

[formflier]

The local county fire department could help you out during off season training sessions.

Exactly! 

I've had some places do it for free and other places want a small donation (which is likely tax deductible).

Also might be driven by personalities at different levels of the fire department.

If you are close to forest service land...might be worth reaching out to those guys.

Best,

FF

[Turkish]

  Cat, I've gotten that advice. The two parcels are not near each other.

New info: I'm letting it go. 

After I got the cashier's check, I finally talked to a lawyer who gene me real answers.

I would have to pay for two separate probates.

$1500-2000 filing and court fees.

4%/$100k assessed value lawyer fees; 7% for the next $100k.

And here's the kicker: since he has children, they would be entitled to 2/3 of the estates with me only 1/3 through my mom. That the 5 acres used to be my mom's and she (and i) paid for it is irrelevant.

"His kids Are estranged, no contact for 20 years."

"The law doesn't care about estranged."

His daughters would be in their 50s and 60s , his son likely 70s.

I know the oldest daughter's name, Candle. That's it. Last name very common.

So I pay $19k to get taxes current, then at least $20k for probate. The court finds them.  I sure they wouldn't credit my money.  I wouldn't. Plus I'd have to pay $$ to clean up the 5 acres.

Not worth the gamble. A bird ($) in the hand and such. If there were a will, it would be a different story.

My buddy can't stand this, so he's going to participle in the auction Friday. I told him not to pay more than $30k. If he gets it, he'll sell it back to me, property "laundered."

I might bid on the 2 acres. The 1 bed 1 bath (but no kitchen) structure on it, he built himself, is salvageable. It goes into auction in July. Back taxes only $2500.

Adverse possession is an option there, but there are many stipulations, such as occupancy and improvement on a abandoned property.

[formflier]

Interesting.  Totally tossing ideas out here and some questions.

If the court doesn't find them, then...?

When would the probate have to happen?

So the probate fees are over and over lawyer fees?

So...what if you (or someone) catches up the taxes before the auction, then your buddy "takes" it through adverse possession?

Does that get it done over a period of time?

Must have been an interesting conversation with the L.  Was there one specific point where you "bowed out" or just the entire thing got to looking too unweildy?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

So...the last "advice" I can give to proceed would be to redeem, sit on it for a while before doing probate.

Before you clean up the property...go to the county and try to get the assessment lowered...due to condition of the property.

Then do probate with the lower value.

Since you obviously have buddies involved or available.  You can redeem and sell your buddy your interest via a quit claim deed (as opposed to general warranty deed).  

That my give him a pathway to clean it up and become a fully insurable title later (or it may not)

Or...you redeem and don't "fight" your buddy taking it through adverse possession.

Obviously all of these pathways have become more of a gamble.  Finding a will would obviously help...but who knows what is in that mess.

That's perhaps another reason to resist the match approach to property clean up.

Finding the kids could be a challenge.  And what happens if you don't find them?  I assume time cures this.

Time and proof of looking, which is likely proved through publication in "legal" newspaper of the county.

To be fair to both sides of this, even if you find a will...I'm sure there would have to be some period of time for that will to be challenged.  Again..likely through publication in the local paper.

What are the chances those kids would become aware of the legal publication?


Best,

FF