Next steps (long post)

[khibomsis]

Indeed Max, we store trauma in our bodies and they do eventually cave in under the stress. Take of you first. Listen to your body. It is telling you there are physical limits to how much you can endure.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

Take a look at the insults. My BPD mother does this too. She criticises a sibling for not having a prestigious job yet, she has not ever held down a job. She would criticise me for doing something but she doesn't do it herself.

Why validate the invalid? Where might this come from. Consider projection.

Pw BPD have a poor sense of self. They establish this sense from external things. They also have poor boundaries - a boundary is knowing what is oneself and what is another person. They have their own feelings of shame and insecurity. I think we all might have them from time to time. But we know these are our feelings.

A pwBPD sees these feelings as external. They project them on to something or someone else. Let's say my mother might feel insecure about something, but she doesn't see this as her feeling. She sees this as my sibling not having a prestigious job and is critical of that.

What she says is more reflective of her than of the person she criticises. It may not be true- it may be how she feels. My sibling's job is just fine but it becomes the focus of an insecure feeling.

We also have to have strong and sane boundaries. You need to hold tight to what you know is true about you and what isn't. Like the Pink Elephant. You know you are not lazy. If your wife calls you lazy that won't make it true. Also consider if she calls you lazy, maybe she feels shame for not doing more- and so projects that feeling to you.

The ACA group has a "laundry list" and one item is " became reactors rather than actors". If you are constantly reacting to your wife's moods you are not acting from your own decisions. It's like the Dr. Phil comment " you are all lost in the woods looking at a disordered person to lead you out". Your wife can't lead to you take care of yourself. She's not likely to give you "permission" to take time for yourself. She may not be able to do that. You need to choose it, even if she doesn't like it. This is what is meant by taking the emotional lead in the relationship.

[maxsterling]

Wendy -

The projection part I understand.  This is very clear, and W even understands and admits she does this.  This morning she was mad because there were dirty dishes in the sink overnight.  The dirty dishes had been in the sink all day from something W had cooked yesterday morning.  My time to clean up?  2am when I woke up hungry.  Why 2am?  W had T last night, I then took kids for a walk, gave them baths, put them to bed.  I fell asleep putting them to bed until 11pm.  At 11, I put pajamas on, had a bite to eat, responded to a few messages here, and fell asleep again.  At 2am I loaded the dishwasher, but fell back asleep before I finished the few handwash items. 

This morning before work, I tried to get the things done I intended on doing last night - emptying the car, cleaning the kids toys from when they went to the park yesterday, and taking out trash.  All stuff W asked me to do.  W tried to talk to me while I was already walking outside to put a new liner in a trash can.  She was upset that I was walking away when she was trying to complain to me about the dishes.  She says me walking away while she is talking is "triggering" for her.  My reality?  I was already walking away when she started talking - I feel there is not much I can do here.  Anyway, that brought on more rage.  Later she complained the same when I leave to enforce boundaries - that I am leaving in anger and that triggers her rage.  The crux of the problem here, and this seems clear that there is not much I can do but take care of myself.   If I have to leave because she is name calling, I have to leave.  She has an issue with the act of leaving, not how or when I do it. 

Regarding the name calling - it is much more hurtful than words like "lazy".  Much of it is really bad and vulgar - NC17 stuff.  That is the stuff that has me completely drained. 

[formflier]

Max,

Clarify again for me is your wife working now?

Best,

FF

[maxsterling]

Max,

Clarify again for me is your wife working now?

Best,

FF

No.  She collects permanent disability.  Mental health disability is not easy to get, so I take that to mean her case was deemed pretty severe at one time.  I am pretty sure disability was approved when she was in a mental health hospital for an extended period of time.  Her work history is pretty spotty.  The longest she has ever held a job is about a year and a half.   Usually when she has tried to support herself through working, it does not last more than a year until she is relying on disability again or leaning on someone else.  She has had more jobs in the 7 years I have known her than I have had my whole life.  I don't make any comments regarding her lack of job - I leave that entirely up to her if she wants to work or not.  Should we split up, I expect little to change.  She would rely on disability, she would try to get money out of me, and probably hold odd jobs that come and go. 

Disability (as they periodically do) recently sent a letter telling her she owes something like $50k for overpayments they made to her over the past 20 years.  THe letter and their calculations don't make any sense, but still that is something that she needs to deal with.

[formflier]

So...help me understand how it is that you are the guy that goes to work and comes home...and does the housework?

So...she cooked, you mostly cleaned it (the mess from HER cooking)...and she raged over that?

Do I have this right?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

You know how we tell people it may get worse when they first begin to assert their boundaries.

In your case, Max, it sounds as if it’s already worse and you may not have anything to worry about should you decline to clean up messes she’s made.

[khibomsis]

I am sorry your wife has to deal with the added stress. I feel sure she should be calling a disability lawyer rather than a divorce lawyer. It seems crazy to me that a person on mental disability could be held liable for a mistake by social security - crazier than BPD. No doubt this is the reason behind the latest spate of dysregulation. It makes sense not to do her work, housework is most useful at times like these to divert her from other problems.

 I am sorrier yet to add another item to your load, but no doubt it would be wise for you also to consult your lawyer. What would your obligations ito of this debt be if you stay married? Vs if you divorce? It might sound like a stupid question, if so please pardon my ignorance of your state laws

[maxsterling]

So...help me understand how it is that you are the guy that goes to work and comes home...and does the housework?

So...she cooked, you mostly cleaned it (the mess from HER cooking)...and she raged over that?

Do I have this right?

Best,

FF

Exactly.  And then W then wants me to validate the invalid - that I left a big mess for her.  Me not being able to do that is what she raged over.   Later, W then admits that the mess was all hers, but makes excuses "I have to clean up after you all the time...I had a busy day..."

My issue is not in recognizing how absurd this is, but how to get out of the pattern and take care of myself and my kids. 

[maxsterling]

I am sorry your wife has to deal with the added stress. I feel sure she should be calling a disability lawyer rather than a divorce lawyer. It seems crazy to me that a person on mental disability could be held liable for a mistake by social security - crazier than BPD. No doubt this is the reason behind the latest spate of dysregulation. It makes sense not to do her work, housework is most useful at times like these to divert her from other problems.

 I am sorrier yet to add another item to your load, but no doubt it would be wise for you also to consult your lawyer. What would your obligations ito of this debt be if you stay married? Vs if you divorce? It might sound like a stupid question, if so please pardon my ignorance of your state laws

The SSDI issue is clearly a math issue on their end.  Their calculations did not make any sense.  Dates had extra digits, columns did not line up, and their math showed they owed her $50k, yet the letter stated she owed them.  But this happens every few years. 

I have discussed with a lawyer in a preliminary (paid) consultation these issues a few years ago.  I am glad I spent the money for the consult.  First of all, I don't think there is really a 50k debt.  Second, if there were, I have no responsibility to that.  It is hers, as the dates they are claiming are between 10 and 20 years ago.  There is no legal way they can come after me for repayment.  But - they can come after her, and if that happens that means I have to shoulder more of the household expenses. 

This is not the reason for her sour mood/dysregulation.  And neither am I and neither is the size of our house.  If she were to have enough money to move into her own place and leave me, I have no doubt her issues would continue.  She still would not be able to meet and keep friends, manage money, or be happy in general.  If we stay together and move into a bigger house - I have no doubt the same issues will be there a year from then.  She will still hate the neighbors/neighborhood and still complain of a lack of space (or complain of too much space to keep clean).

[formflier]

I'm glad you see/have the concept of validating the invalid.

Do you think you are doing that, by doing as much work as you are around the house (to cover for her).

Clarity:  No..I'm not suggesting you should come home and not lift a finger. 

Hmm...so...what are the consequences to her for her rage?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

This is not the reason for her sour mood/dysregulation.  And neither am I and neither is the size of our house.  If she were to have enough money to move into her own place and leave me, I have no doubt her issues would continue.  She still would not be able to meet and keep friends, manage money, or be happy in general.  If we stay together and move into a bigger house - I have no doubt the same issues will be there a year from then.  She will still hate the neighbors/neighborhood and still complain of a lack of space (or complain of too much space to keep clean).

This is what I have observed as well.
If she were to have enough money to move into her own place and leave me, I have no doubt her issues would continue. 


My father planned well for their elder years and my mother thankfully has enough for her needs to be met and to have assistance at home.  She has the whole house to herself. She still has BPD and her issues.


If we stay together and move into a bigger house - I have no doubt the same issues will be there a year from then. 

My parents stayed together and we also moved due to my father's job. Regardless of where we were or size of house- they still had the same issues.

I don't think there's an external "fix" for internal issues.

This kind of situation is tough. I think though, if there were to be any change, it would need to be on your part. As long as you are doing everything for her, she doesn't have much need or incentive to do it.

[khibomsis]

Max, I am glad to see you have a firm grasp of essentials. It means the emotional abuse is not working on one level - the practical side. I am totally with Notwendy and FF in devising ways to get out from under in not validating the invalid. It is hard when it is dishes, after all you and the kids have to function, but we are here to support you in finding a way.

[formflier]

I don't think there's an external "fix" for internal issues.
 

To be accurate, yes there is no fix...there certainly is external "influence".  That can be positive or negative influence.

So...in theory, there is a set of external circumstances that will have the "most positive" influence on your wife.  I would further argue your wife will not be able to "see" it or "agree" with it.  I think you will be able to see it more clearly, most likely by "seeing" what your wife is able to do/accomplish and the amount of her "rage"/dysregulation.

Again...no "fix".

I think one of the broad external influences is validation.  That can either be validation of the valid...or the invalid.

That's kinda where I'm going with my concern over Max doing large amounts of housework and also getting raged at over it.

If she regularly expressed thankfulness...I wouldn't be so concerned.

Do I ever think she would be "normal" in this area...no.  Just as strongly I don't think she should be "insulated" from the consequences of her choices around the house...when Max isn't around.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Yes, there is no external "fix" for someone's internal emotions- such as a new house. The tendency to blame an external source is there.

Natural consequences of someone's behavior though is a good lesson and this goes on with people constantly. It's a part of parenting. Of course we protect children and people we care about from serious harmful ones. Don't let a friend drive drunk, don't let small children climb up on a cabinet. But in general we have all learned appropriate behaviors from natural consequences.

Let's say a child forgot to bring their homework to school. They will then face the consequences- a zero for the assignment. They will probably not forget to bring it in the future.

Or the child forgets their homework and their parent brings it to school for them. They don't have consequences and keep forgetting it. They don't have to remember it because there are no condequences for forgetting it.

Take this to the alcoholics in the original AA book. They drink too much and have a hangover the next day and are late to work. The natural consequences are an angry boss and maybe getting fired if they do this too much. If they want to keep their jobs they had better take care of their drinking problem and get help.

But they have such nice supportive spouses who call the boss and tell them their dear husbands are sick. The boss is understanding. The alcoholic faces no consequences for drinking too much and has no incentive to try to get help. This is why the original authors wrote a chapter to the wives about enabling their husbands. The wives assumed they were helping but in actuality they were keeping their husbands from seeking help.

Now to you Max. In how many ways are you keeping your wife from facing the consequences of her behaviors? While it's important to protect the kids and meet their needs even if she won't or can't, what other behaviors are you enabling? The insults for one. What if someone who was not your wife called you those things? Would it be OK? I hope not. It's not OK for her either. She's capable of learning this. Kids learn this in kindergarten- play nice with others or your friends won't play with you. Say "please" and "thank you".

You need to be the one to not enable this by how you respond to her. You can not tell her what to do. She's going to say what she's going to say. Your response is the natural consequence here and the advice is not to give it back, or act out on it, but to disengage and remove yourself from the conversation. One needs to be consistent with consequences as it may take some time and practice to make a change.

[formflier]

In how many ways are you keeping your wife from facing the consequences of her behaviors? 

Your response is the natural consequence here and the advice is not to give it back, or act out on it, but to disengage and remove yourself from the conversation.


One needs to be consistent with consequences as it may take some time and practice to make a change.

Focus here..no more rage for you Max.  Keep it that simple.

Best,

FF