How to handle teen daughter and BPDish mom for the 'best' outcome?

[lostinvt]

I'm having a lot of difficulty recently in how to help navigate my family through this. 

A brief background... Married 18 years, with a 15yo D and a suspected BPD W (or at least traits).  No physical violence, or even yelling, just a LOT of emotional manipulation and control.  I have been very passive for way too long, 100% in the FOG and only recently (~5 months ago) realized what was going on and got into therapy.  We have been talking, I have mentioned I'm not sure if I want to stay or leave, but no serious talk of divorce between us.  A few times I was to the point of trying to plan an exit (initial attorney consult, collecting documents, etc).  I did get us into couples therapy (3 sessions so far), but I'm unsure how that will go.  I'm not sure what the future holds.  I am trying, but I'm skeptical of it actually working out.  Thinking of our D, I ponder if it would be better for her to have a much better environment 1/2 the time (me leaving) than staying in the current situation.  I have read a LOT both here and on my own, and personally feeling more confident in how to handle things between me and W (for better or worse).

My daughter has been in therapy for 2 years, wife for many years (but not diagnosed and not working on anything relevant that I know of).  My daughter is wise for her age, a very smart, honest, insightful teen.  We have spoken about certain situations where I felt I needed to validate her feelings and let her know I am always available to talk and listen, to provide empathy, and to encourage her to talk to her therapist.  Have also told her certain behaviors were not ok, and that I'm trying to 'steer our family dynamic in a better direction'.  She is always uncomfortable around her mom, always tense, does not open up or ask for anything for fear of the response.  She has physical reactions (subconscious recoil) when her mom jumps into a situation to take over (usually in the kitchen for example).

I know my wife is hypersensitive to emotional tells (jaw movement, eye movement, tone of voice, etc)... she picks apart absolutely everything and will respond with disbelief 'I don't deserve to be treated like that!' if I dare be assertive (in a calm respectful manner).  This often comes across in her relationship with D as well.  D is a teen, and with covid, she is having some difficulty not seeing friends and having a lack of opportunities. (Right at the age where she realizes that she has been very sheltered for most of her life and wants to do something about it now).  She's aware of her need to get out of the house to 'recharge', but at the same time, W's anxiety about things keeps her from really doing so outside of school, except for very limited 1-2h stints every other week or so.

So sometimes there is a tick of attitude and my wife picks up on that and gets upset.  I'm not around but she'll come to me and say that there is so much attitude that she doesn't want to be around our daughter.  This morning she said she was 'nervous about being home alone with her'.  She didn't want to pop in her room last night to fill her pill case.  Meanwhile she wants to talk to me about how much of a problem it is, how disrespectful D is being to her, how bad it makes her feel etc... Sometimes she's looking for support, but often she wants me to call out D, talk to her, make her apologize to W for that.  Likewise D is hesitant to apologize b/c she's afraid W will lay into her about how hurtful it is and make D feel so much worse, when she already feels bad, and actually probably already worse than she should.

I don't know how to approach this.  I DON'T want D to learn to be hypersensitive and apologize for having normal feelings by forcing her to apologize any time W gets a wiff of it.  I would rather not go behind W's back and talk to D telling her to just apologize even if she doesn't mean it and I don't think there is anything to apologize for.  I would rather not invalidate W's perspective by telling her she's over sensitive and D is just a teen and to give her some slack, not take it personally.

I tried talking to W, asking her if she maybe could ask D 'Did I do something to upset you today?'.  That it would open a dialog, and also show that W cares about D's perspective, as well as calling attention to how it made W feel.  But W just said 'That approach does't work with teenagers.' and refused.  I try to ask questions about situations to see if there was just a miscommunication (which from talking to D, it usually is), but W insists she was very clear and D was just not being honest, or following through, etc...  I have tried suggesting me and W speak with D's therapist together to have a check in and to discuss this for some outside perspective, but D's therapist is painted black due to a previous situation and she really doesn't trust or want to engage her.

I know exactly what D is feeling, and I try to mediate between and encourage healthy exchanges, but without telling D explicitly `your mom may be sick, you need to X Y Z, etc...'.  I feel like treating D like W suggests is unhealthy, for all of us really, but most importantly for D.  Trying to mediate without being explicit to either feels almost dishonest?  Or maybe it's just not working, and still isn't really healthy for any of us.  Calling out W to D and being explicit in how to handle things is almost maybe not the healthiest for D, but may be the best I can do, BUT in doing so I undermine the spousal partnership and any kind of romantic intimacy with W.  Like I have to see her as less then an equal partner that I can trust and work with.

[livednlearned]

Have you come across the Karpman drama triangle in your reading?

It seems your wife wants you to rescue her, the victim, from D, the persecutor. 

Your wife has to learn to seek independent strategies, so you can't do for her what she's capable of doing.

You have to support her efforts to do things for herself.

The gist is "I'll be a sounding board for you on this. Me in the middle undermines your authority and we don't want that, so I'll hear you out on what you'd like to say or do."

If it comes to it, your bottom line might be, "I will not undermine you."

She'll want you to cave because she's seeking reassurance in a maladaptive way and won't want to give up her security blanket that easily. So this isn't likely to soothe her so much as put you in a healthier role when she's seeking to triangulate you with your daughter.

Does that make sense?

[ForeverDad]

A forced apology is bound to fail.

Years ago my then-spouse demanded apologies from me.  It got to the point she'd reject an apology and tell me to restate it.  I decided I'd start appeasing her.  Soon she'd demand a "do over" several times.  You can guess nothing quite satisfied her.  Oh, did I reveal that when I repeated an apology and included what she demanded that I somehow left out another piece.  Again and again?  She never realized it was happening, accidentally, on purpose.

Finally, after a few months of this farce I told her, "I will apologize only if I truly believe an apology is merited."  Wow, that did not go over well.  Of course, that was because I set a new Boundary.

We all know people with BPD or even NPD traits detest boundaries.  Surprise, the proper boundary is not for them to follow, it's for us.  Weird, right?  Here's simple example, though there are a myriad of variations.  "If you do or don't do ____ then I will or will not do ____."

"If you rant or rage, I will take our daughter and leave.  We will have dinner, watch a movie, go to the park or some other peaceful activity but we won't return until you've calmed down, or it's bedtime, whichever comes first."

Do you see that it puts YOU in control and YOU stop participating in spouse's misbehavior?

[lostinvt]

@livednlearned - Yes, I have come across it and did some reading, but I found the page here much more helpful.  Thank you for  pointing that out to me.  It's hard when you're in the middle of a situation sometimes to take a step out and see how it relates to things you have read and know about.  But it does make a lot of sense.  I feel like I keep getting stuck in the forest, like 10ft in, just out of view of where I entered and instead of just turning around and seeing if there is another way around, I get stuck trying to figure out a way through when I don't even know the extent of it.  But this is very helpful.  It's good to just know that my intuition that the healthiest approach is for us to discuss, and me support here in that regard, but that she should handle it.  She keeps saying that we are a team, and I need to step in to show her support, that she does it for me. (as an aside, I don't want her to do that, and asked her to let me know if/when she does so that I'm aware and can address whatever it is... she didn't like that either, but agreed).

@ForeverDad
I have been there too... apologizing just to end the argument, not even knowing what I'm apologizing for.  And then she would start asking me exactly what I'm apologizing for, and that would inevitably lead to much more 'discussion'.  I have been trying very hard to not do that.  At the same time, she realizes this and has started changing topics, or 'searching'  for the one thing that I feel I could have done better and apologize for that, and we would not be done until that happened.

My issues with boundaries is that in our situation, the 'rages' are never violent.  There is no yelling, or name calling, and usually no disrepect that I'm seeing (at least not now).  I just get a very sick feeling when these things come up.  I'm working on identifying exactly what it is, staying true to myself and identifying boundaries I could lay down.  I've just been 'along for the ride' for so many years, it's been very hard for me to even think for myself.  But I'm working on it and gaining confidence.

For what it's worth...
It started again at dinner last night.  W had said something and I felt like it was finished, just a comment about her day.  D then said something very off topic and I engaged a little to clarify what she was referring to.  It was a little abrupt, but not rude or anything.  W immediately went silent, disengaged in all conversation and eventually left the table and started cleaning up in the kitchen (which she NEVER does).  Afterwards I find out she was upset b/c she says D interrupted her, I did not call her out on it, engaged with her, and then never went back to W.  I explained simply I did not know she had more to say, and I did not see it as an interruption. I also empathized and tried to validate that if she felt she had more to say then I can see how that could 'hurt' as she put it.  I refused to apologize for not calling it out and told her she should say something next time, there was plenty of opportunity to revisit it or politely tell D she wasn't done.  She asked me if that would be ok with me if she did that and I told her absolutely.  It only took about 20 min to get there and we left it w/o her sulking away into silence.  So I'll call that a success.

Thank you both for the insight and suggestions!

[mart555]

I haven't had a chance to fully read the thread but as the father of two teenagers who recently separated (2 yrs ago and nowhere near done..) I want to express the following:
- Chances are that the situation is worse than you think.  It took me and the kids months before we could realize how bad it was all those years.  My oldest realized that things that happened when he was 5-6 years old was because of he was stressed due to his mom (he had to go pee all the time), and that his chronic body pain from 8 to ~14 was because of stress as well.  All that pain is gone.
- Same for my now 12yo, who had suicidal ideation and frequent tantrums. Turns out that the root cause is an attachment disorder... quite frequent with a BPD mom.
- I realized I was under stress as well, but the pill that was difficult to swallow was realizing that I did not act earlier to save the kids. 

Of course the mom blamed all of this on me..

Now the kids live with me full time and visit their mom once in a while.  That will maybe change in the future if the mom gets her wish.  The kids have made a TREMENDOUS progress with regards to their wellbeing and with how they deal with their mom. 

Your daughter is 15, she'll likely be able to decide where she wants to live and if not, her opinion will be taken into consideration. 

I also had high hopes of saving the mom but I was in the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt). I realized that I had no control over this so I focused on me and the kids.  I highly recommend this book if you haven't read it https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Caretaking-Borderline-Narcissist-Drama/dp/1442238321

[lostinvt]

@mart555 - Thank you for the input and relating your experience.  I do struggle with the affects long term on D.  She knows things are different at home after talking to peers about their relationships.  I know she feels trapped and is anxious about the unpredictability.  I'm trying to empower her and be there for her... take over (gently) situations and aspects that I have until now been very passive with and W had been 'managing'.  I'm swallowing that pill now, that I let things get to where they are, and realizing I NEED to take the lead. 

But again I struggle with where to draw that line... where do I say (in different words) "you're being unreasonable and we are doing this my way" versus "You have a point, let's compromise and do xyz".  I want to listen to W as a reasonable adult, but knowing that I may have issues pushing me to the other extreme (people pleasing, conflict avoidance), I don't want to give into those feelings either.  I know that I'm at least aware of this dynamic (as opposed to her.. I think?)  and can look to others/books/resources for insight and healthy approaches.  I know she's not really doing any of that, and any time she does with others, the 'story' that she relates is so much harsher than reality, the feedback she get's is very misleading.

I think I'm starting to repeat myself in different words now.  But this input has been very helpful and I really appreciate it.  Thank you again!

[worriedStepmom]

First, great job in getting yourself and your teen into therapy.  Whether you stay or leave, your daughter will have to learn how to deal with her mom in some way.

I want to listen to W as a reasonable adult

the 'story' that she relates is so much harsher than reality, the feedback she get's is very misleading.

These are the two key points:
  -You want to be a reasonable adult treating W as a reasonable adult.
  -W is not a reasonable adult.

My SD13's mom looks for the slights in every single interaction she has with everyone. (SD13 describes it as "mom wraps herself in negativity").  She relates her 'story' to her T, who then validates that it's everyone else's problem. 

It's been difficult for me to deal with the gaslighting from her ('T says it's your fault'), and I never had to live with her.   It's good that you are here asking for perspectives to see what's appropriate and what's not.  My T helps me a lot with that too.

It took years for us to realize we were so focused on appeasing uBPDmom that we weren't properly protecting SD.  Now I ask myself - "if a friend told me that their spouse was treating their teen this way, how would I advise that they respond?"  That helps me figure out if I'm on the right track.

[Notwendy]

She is always uncomfortable around her mom, always tense, does not open up or ask for anything for fear of the response.  She has physical reactions (subconscious recoil) when her mom jumps into a situation to take over (usually in the kitchen for example).


I think your awareness of the situation and also your decision to not enable the dynamics is going to make a difference already.

Your daughter's reactions to her mother are her protective mechanisms. She knows something isn't feeling right to her and so she recoils. This is her own boundaries that could serve her well when she too is going to have relationships with others. If she starts to date someone and she is feeling this way- she will know this is not a relationship she wants to pursue.

It's known that our family of origin influences our choice of partners. If she's taught to ignore these feelings then she might not be as aware of when a relationship isn't good for her.

I grew up with a BPD mother and we were expected to tolerate her behaviors. The triangle you described (Karpman dynamics) was very much a part of my family relationships.

While you need to be careful to not triangulate with your wife and your D, the fact that you are making changes now will likely be for the better.

I recognize now that I have a similar reaction around my mother that your daughter does, even now as an adult. We were told to "love your mother' but in actuality we feared her. I would pay attention to Mat55's message - chances are it's much worse than you think.