How important is a diagnosis?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I have some questions about the psych eval and custody eval process. I know a lot of you have experience with one or both of these, so I'd love to hear your thoughts and experiences. 

1) I know that the most important thing is to document and prove the BP's alarming patterns of behavior. That being said, does it help your custody case if you get the BP diagnosed?

2) If so, is it possible to get the BP diagnosed either in a CE with a forensic psychologist or in a PE?

3) If you don't/can't get the BP diagnosed, does that limit your ability to tie everything together at trial when you're making the case as to why it's harmful for the BP to have majority - or even half - of the parenting time?

[alleyesonme]

I have some questions about the psych eval and custody eval process. I know a lot of you have experience with one or both of these, so I'd love to hear your thoughts and experiences. 

1) I know that the most important thing is to document and prove the BP's alarming patterns of behavior. That being said, does it help your custody case if you get the BP diagnosed?

2) If so, is it possible to get the BP diagnosed either in a CE with a forensic psychologist or in a PE?

3) If you don't/can't get the BP diagnosed, does that limit your ability to tie everything together at trial when you're making the case as to why it's harmful for the BP to have majority - or even half - of the parenting time?

[mart555]

Focus on the behavior, not the diagnostic.  The impact on the kids is due to the behavior. The diagnostic is just a note on a piece of paper.  I fear that focusing on the diagnostic could mean that they have an excuse "it's the illness that made me do it".

It might take a few shots before you get more custody, don't give up.  Their behavior eventually shines through.

[alleyesonme]

Focus on the behavior, not the diagnostic.  The impact on the kids is due to the behavior. The diagnostic is just a note on a piece of paper.  I fear that focusing on the diagnostic could mean that they have an excuse "it's the illness that made me do it".

It might take a few shots before you get more custody, don't give up.  Their behavior eventually shines through.

Thanks for the tips and support. I guess I was thinking that with a diagnosis, if it's possible to get one, then we can more directly point to literature and research that indicates that children of BP parents are much more likely to suffer physical and/or emotional harm. Sort of like the diagnosis makes it an easier case to prove, but it's still doable without the diagnosis. Has that been your experience too?

[GaGrl]

If you can have the forensic psychologists'testimony/report make the vital connections between the diagnosis and the parent's behaviors that significantly affect the children, that would be great.

[alleyesonme]

If you can have the forensic psychologists'testimony/report make the vital connections between the diagnosis and the parent's behaviors that significantly affect the children, that would be great.

That's what I was thinking, and that'd be the "ideal" outcome of this. Have you heard of anyone getting diagnosed (that wasn't already diagnosed) with BPD in a PE or CE?

[mart555]

Thanks for the tips and support. I guess I was thinking that with a diagnosis, if it's possible to get one, then we can more directly point to literature and research that indicates that children of BP parents are much more likely to suffer physical and/or emotional harm. Sort of like the diagnosis makes it an easier case to prove, but it's still doable without the diagnosis. Has that been your experience too?

My ex went full blown crazy for a few months.  Told the kids that she would go kill herself, left in handcuffs on christmas eve, was harassing the kids online, ..  they were scared of her and did not see her for a while.  So with this, and the children's aid society, a GAL, .. I was able to limit contact and the damage.  But from what I was told, I should not mention the word BPD in court and from what I've seen, because she has BPD she makes a great victim so that plays against me.     I'll see how things are in court when the time comes (ex is dragging everything)

[ForeverDad]

We ourselves as litigants have to be careful not to "play doctor".  Yes, we've had years of exposure to the other spouse but court will not view our information as coming from a neutral trained professional.

I recall my Custody Evaluator, an excellent child psychologist, told me in our first session he was not there to diagnose anyone, only to do testing, make observations of the parents, children and the interaction of parents with the children.  I had a 5 month CE in my 2 year divorce, plus another 6 years afterward in and out of court... I couldn't get anyone to suggest or diagnose what sort of mental illness, if any, she had.

However if you do have a diagnosis or a history of the other's police or hospital assessment encounters, then that may be very helpful.  Sadly, most of us had ex-spouses who (in Denial) refused to get assessed.

Even if you had someone willing to interview and concluded/diagnosed your spouse with BPD, you'd still need a professional to state how that would negatively impact the children and to what extent.

Here's an illustration.  Someone gets diagnosed as an alcoholic.  How bad is that?  It all depends on the behaviors.  What if it is a person who has stopped over-drinking, that is, a dry alcoholic?  What if it is a person who only drinks in private while not with the children?  Or is it meaningful more so such as when the parent is with the kids, threatens or hits the kids, or drives with the kids while intoxicated?  Do you see?  Not everyone labeled as an alcoholic must be a bad parent.

So that's why we typically state that if you are fortunate enough to have a diagnosis, great, but whether you have it or not, back it all up with documentation of the poor behaviors.  And court gives more importance to the poor behaviors toward the kids (minors who need more protection) than to us and others (the adults).  If you have a long list of poor behaviors, list first the ones most impacting to the children.  If there's one thing we all agree on about court, children are their hot button, we adults aren't as much.

[livednlearned]

My ex did not undergo the MMPI2, although he did have a forensic psychologist evaluate him in a psych eval.

It was a 12 page report and concluded with something along the lines of "a PD cannot be ruled out and would require further testing."

I was devastated to learn that we missed the opportunity to have the MMPI2 administered.

However, looking back with perspective, the report was more damning than a dx. It described in detail the way ex was not able to focus on our son despite language to the contrary. He could not describe any of (then) S11's interests, didn't know the names of his friends, and wasn't able to recall simple things like how S11 celebrated his last birthday, or the one before that, or before that.

It was small details that the psychologist linked to troubling thought processes and the gap between what ex was asking for (more time with his beloved son) and very little evidence to show a meaningful relationship existed.

One thing in particular she called out was ex's inability to describe the inner lives of the significant women in his life - mother, sister, ex wives.

The report also called out ways that ex would employ controlling tactics in the sessions, and how he would use humor to say things considered otherwise socially offensive, usually when discussing me.

Other things like that, which seemed odd and not meaningful information at the time given how important I felt it was for someone to shout out Cluster B.

It seemed like a nothing burger report at the time and yet it described in close up detail how my ex behaved, which gave the judge a clear picture of who was in his court.

A lot of the success of our cases can come down to how well your L litigates this stuff, and what biases the judge has, or how exactly they practice law (intuitively/shoot from the hip or technical/not seeming to employ common sense).

You want an L who understands how to piece all the parts together.

Very few of us inch forwards in our cases based on some smoking gun like a dx.

[worriedStepmom]

The diagnosis most likely doesn't matter.

As far as I know, SD's mom has never been diagnosed with BPD.  However, if we go back to court the family therapist will testify about all kinds of red flags she saw with mom.  Our logs of communication will also show problematic behaviors.  That's what will influence the court.

In my friend's case, her uNPD ex had a psychological evaluation that said there could be signs of a PD but didn't attempt a diagnosis.  The psychologist was able to offer pretty damning evidence in court of lies and manipulations from their sessions (including that the ex provided psychologist with a fake phone number for my friend and had someone answer that phone and say they were her and that they didn't want to provide a statement).  The ex only has supervised visitation.

Our L keeps us focused solidly on the impact on SD13 - not what could happen, but what is and has happened.

[ForeverDad]

Something seldom mentioned... professionals don't like getting sued.  Guess who are more likely to threaten lawsuits?  That's right, people who look bad in reports and are in Denial and quick to Shift Blame onto others.  People like our ex-spouses and ex-whatever.  So that might be a factor in why so few people get an official diagnosis.

That's probably why a lot of therapists won't testify in court.  However, we've noticed that what they won't say in direct court testimony they will share with someone like a Custody Evaluator.

[yeeter]

What is the goal?  What do you want?

If just to label the other party to reinforce to your own self that you are not the bad person.  It’s not satisfying

If to remove children from her custody. Then yes that will require everything there is to declare her unfit.  Pretty unlikely

The more ‘probable’ outcome is that an evaluator stops short of labeling a diagnosis.  Some other evaluator might be brought in for that. And if not happens, that in and of itself doesn’t mean children would be removed from her care.

I’m not sure a formal diagnosis has any practical value unless very very severe behavior.  And then children’s protective services is likely a better route. 

[alleyesonme]

My ex went full blown crazy for a few months.  Told the kids that she would go kill herself, left in handcuffs on christmas eve, was harassing the kids online, ..  they were scared of her and did not see her for a while.  So with this, and the children's aid society, a GAL, .. I was able to limit contact and the damage.  But from what I was told, I should not mention the word BPD in court and from what I've seen, because she has BPD she makes a great victim so that plays against me.     I'll see how things are in court when the time comes (ex is dragging everything)

Wow, that's interesting. That's awful that you and your kids are having to go through that, but hopefully it ends up helping you guys in the long run because all of that behavior is documented. Are you guys doing a CE or PE?

[alleyesonme]

We ourselves as litigants have to be careful not to "play doctor".  Yes, we've had years of exposure to the other spouse but court will not view our information as coming from a neutral trained professional.

I recall my Custody Evaluator, an excellent child psychologist, told me in our first session he was not there to diagnose anyone, only to do testing, make observations of the parents, children and the interaction of parents with the children.  I had a 5 month CE in my 2 year divorce, plus another 6 years afterward in and out of court... I couldn't get anyone to suggest or diagnose what sort of mental illness, if any, she had.

However if you do have a diagnosis or a history of the other's police or hospital assessment encounters, then that may be very helpful.  Sadly, most of us had ex-spouses who (in Denial) refused to get assessed.

Even if you had someone willing to interview and concluded/diagnosed your spouse with BPD, you'd still need a professional to state how that would negatively impact the children and to what extent.

Here's an illustration.  Someone gets diagnosed as an alcoholic.  How bad is that?  It all depends on the behaviors.  What if it is a person who has stopped over-drinking, that is, a dry alcoholic?  What if it is a person who only drinks in private while not with the children?  Or is it meaningful more so such as when the parent is with the kids, threatens or hits the kids, or drives with the kids while intoxicated?  Do you see?  Not everyone labeled as an alcoholic must be a bad parent.

So that's why we typically state that if you are fortunate enough to have a diagnosis, great, but whether you have it or not, back it all up with documentation of the poor behaviors.  And court gives more importance to the poor behaviors toward the kids (minors who need more protection) than to us and others (the adults).  If you have a long list of poor behaviors, list first the ones most impacting to the children.  If there's one thing we all agree on about court, children are their hot button, we adults aren't as much.

Thank you for the info and feedback. I understand that getting a diagnosis is very difficult for most of us, and I'm probably in that same boat, as my W refuses to admit she has any issues and turns on the charm for every professional she meets.

The one thing about BPD that I think is key, for someone that can get their spouse diagnosed, is that it's very unlikely to change. So if someone was in a marriage for 10 years and their BP spouse never changed, a simple lecture from the judge isn't going to accomplish anything. The only possible way to change is extensive therapy, and as we all know, most of our spouses will never do that.

You make a great point about the necessity to draw the link between the disorder and how it actually impacts the kids. Without that, no one will care. I think we've got some significant documented patterns of behaviors that should turn some heads. Keeping my fingers crossed.

[alleyesonme]

My ex did not undergo the MMPI2, although he did have a forensic psychologist evaluate him in a psych eval.

It was a 12 page report and concluded with something along the lines of "a PD cannot be ruled out and would require further testing."

I was devastated to learn that we missed the opportunity to have the MMPI2 administered.

However, looking back with perspective, the report was more damning than a dx. It described in detail the way ex was not able to focus on our son despite language to the contrary. He could not describe any of (then) S11's interests, didn't know the names of his friends, and wasn't able to recall simple things like how S11 celebrated his last birthday, or the one before that, or before that.

It was small details that the psychologist linked to troubling thought processes and the gap between what ex was asking for (more time with his beloved son) and very little evidence to show a meaningful relationship existed.

One thing in particular she called out was ex's inability to describe the inner lives of the significant women in his life - mother, sister, ex wives.

The report also called out ways that ex would employ controlling tactics in the sessions, and how he would use humor to say things considered otherwise socially offensive, usually when discussing me.

Other things like that, which seemed odd and not meaningful information at the time given how important I felt it was for someone to shout out Cluster B.

It seemed like a nothing burger report at the time and yet it described in close up detail how my ex behaved, which gave the judge a clear picture of who was in his court.

A lot of the success of our cases can come down to how well your L litigates this stuff, and what biases the judge has, or how exactly they practice law (intuitively/shoot from the hip or technical/not seeming to employ common sense).

You want an L who understands how to piece all the parts together.

Very few of us inch forwards in our cases based on some smoking gun like a dx.

That's awesome that you're able to see the good that came out of that. Your ex proved once again that his words and actions don't match up, and that's great that the evaluator identified that for the judge. I'm in the same boat in terms of how my W's actions rarely don't match her words, so I'm really hoping that the higher-ups will start to recognize that. I think the GAL already has.

[alleyesonme]

The diagnosis most likely doesn't matter.

As far as I know, SD's mom has never been diagnosed with BPD.  However, if we go back to court the family therapist will testify about all kinds of red flags she saw with mom.  Our logs of communication will also show problematic behaviors.  That's what will influence the court.

In my friend's case, her uNPD ex had a psychological evaluation that said there could be signs of a PD but didn't attempt a diagnosis.  The psychologist was able to offer pretty damning evidence in court of lies and manipulations from their sessions (including that the ex provided psychologist with a fake phone number for my friend and had someone answer that phone and say they were her and that they didn't want to provide a statement).  The ex only has supervised visitation.

Our L keeps us focused solidly on the impact on SD13 - not what could happen, but what is and has happened.

Great tips here - thank you! Sounds like you're doing a really good job of documenting everything and continuing to build your case over time. These people don't change, so there will continue to be opportunities for us to document alarming behaviors.

[alleyesonme]

Something seldom mentioned... professionals don't like getting sued.  Guess who are more likely to threaten lawsuits?  That's right, people who look bad in reports and are in Denial and quick to Shift Blame onto others.  People like our ex-spouses and ex-whatever.  So that might be a factor in why so few people get an official diagnosis.

That's probably why a lot of therapists won't testify in court.  However, we've noticed that what they won't say in direct court testimony they will share with someone like a Custody Evaluator.

That's a great point. I've heard of states where they barely have any forensic psychologists actively working anymore most likely because of fear of legal liability. Hopefully, like you said, they can still get the message across to the CE and/or GAL, who can then communicate it to the court.

[alleyesonme]

What is the goal?  What do you want?

If just to label the other party to reinforce to your own self that you are not the bad person.  It’s not satisfying

If to remove children from her custody. Then yes that will require everything there is to declare her unfit.  Pretty unlikely

The more ‘probable’ outcome is that an evaluator stops short of labeling a diagnosis.  Some other evaluator might be brought in for that. And if not happens, that in and of itself doesn’t mean children would be removed from her care.

I’m not sure a formal diagnosis has any practical value unless very very severe behavior.  And then children’s protective services is likely a better route. 

I guess the easy answer to your question is that I want what's best for our daughter, and I firmly believe that that's to be with me for the vast majority of the time. In order to accomplish that, we probably need some professionals that side with us in recognizing my ex's disordered way of acting and thinking, whether that includes a formal diagnosis or not.

[livednlearned]

A way to look at it is that it's not the end of the world if you don't get a custody evaluation.

It's not the end of the world if you don't get a psych eval with the MMPI-2 or MMPI-3 or whatever else is on tap.

And it's not the end of the world if you don't get a dx.

These are mainly tactics.

There are others that work.

The key is to learn how things work and talk things through with your lawyer in a way where you are on semi-level ground, understanding the implications of different choices.

[alleyesonme]

A way to look at it is that it's not the end of the world if you don't get a custody evaluation.

It's not the end of the world if you don't get a psych eval with the MMPI-2 or MMPI-3 or whatever else is on tap.

And it's not the end of the world if you don't get a dx.

These are mainly tactics.

There are others that work.

The key is to learn how things work and talk things through with your lawyer in a way where you are on semi-level ground, understanding the implications of different choices.

Great point here - thank you for the perspective.

[ForeverDad]

My divorce case took nearly two years.  I did have a very perceptive Custody Evaluator, he was a child psychologist and my lawyer said he'd never had his reports ignored by the court, as he phrased it, the court viewed him like god.  One of the points the CE made during our first session was that he wasn't there to diagnose anyone.  He was to assess and make a recommendation.

The preliminary report was reviewed by the judge and the two lawyers.  It was about 10 pages.  These are confidential so among the bits and pieces was this:  "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can."

I say it was the preliminary report because after that my stbEx acted up - another story in other posts - and got herself fired by the pediatrician, I read those notations in my son's file.  She had temp custody and so they weren't free to tell me, the staff and lawyer were mum.  The lawyer refused to comment but asked if I wanted a copy of his file, hint, hint.  However, the letter sent to her was more polite, it simply stated they were "withdrawing services", typical legal understatement.  She of course felt she had to make me look worse than her and so sure enough, CPS stepped in to assess yet another child abuse claim which for the first time son joined in on.  He was about 5 years old at the time and clueless.  It helped him when I found and read with him a Clifford the Big Red Dog book, T-Bone Tells the Truth.

So when Trial Day arrived the CE arrived with his surely updated report in hand.  Since we quickly shifted to settlement mode, the court accepted it sight unseen under seal, probably still in the court's archive.  Since my lawyer and I were prepared for trial, I didn't fear a trial.  I knew the CE had recommended we try Shared Parenting before later defaulting to me as custodial parent.  I've always assumed a trial would turn out good for me but of course I knew it would be hard for the court to jump/reverse from mother's temporary custody to me.  (Evidently courts favor incremental changes.)  I could tell everyone there wanted me to agree to a settlement.  I held out for one extra... me being the residential parent in charge of school.  And she gave in after tears and begging.

I also had a hard fight to see my son's therapy records.  She had started him in it in yet another attempt to make me look bad.  Since she was temp custodial parent she was able to lock me out of the records.  She even tried to claim HIPAA privacy since her comments would be in with son's records.  After the third time at court, it was granted and I got about 200 pages in the first installment.  Lots of badmouthing me as dangerous.  That was where I learned she told the counselor that her lawyer told her she would probably lose at trial.  But that news was learned after the the Trial Day settlement.  She had delayed our case as long as she could because she had a very favorable temp order the entire time (separation and divorce process) and the court never modified the temp orders.

[alleyesonme]

My divorce case took nearly two years.  I did have a very perceptive Custody Evaluator, he was a child psychologist and my lawyer said he'd never had his reports ignored by the court, as he phrased it, the court viewed him like god.  One of the points the CE made during our first session was that he wasn't there to diagnose anyone.  He was to assess and make a recommendation.

The preliminary report was reviewed by the judge and the two lawyers.  It was about 10 pages.  These are confidential so among the bits and pieces was this:  "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can."

I say it was the preliminary report because after that my stbEx acted up - another story in other posts - and got herself fired by the pediatrician, I read those notations in my son's file.  She had temp custody and so they weren't free to tell me, the staff and lawyer were mum.  The lawyer refused to comment but asked if I wanted a copy of his file, hint, hint.  However, the letter sent to her was more polite, it simply stated they were "withdrawing services", typical legal understatement.  She of course felt she had to make me look worse than her and so sure enough, CPS stepped in to assess yet another child abuse claim which for the first time son joined in on.  He was about 5 years old at the time and clueless.  It helped him when I found and read with him a Clifford the Big Red Dog book, T-Bone Tells the Truth.

So when Trial Day arrived the CE arrived with his surely updated report in hand.  Since we quickly shifted to settlement mode, the court accepted it sight unseen under seal, probably still in the court's archive.  Since my lawyer and I were prepared for trial, I didn't fear a trial.  I knew the CE had recommended we try Shared Parenting before later defaulting to me as custodial parent.  I've always assumed a trial would turn out good for me but of course I knew it would be hard for the court to jump/reverse from mother's temporary custody to me.  (Evidently courts favor incremental changes.)  I could tell everyone there wanted me to agree to a settlement.  I held out for one extra... me being the residential parent in charge of school.  And she gave in after tears and begging.

I also had a hard fight to see my son's therapy records.  She had started him in it in yet another attempt to make me look bad.  Since she was temp custodial parent she was able to lock me out of the records.  She even tried to claim HIPAA privacy since her comments would be in with son's records.  After the third time at court, it was granted and I got about 200 pages in the first installment.  Lots of badmouthing me as dangerous.  That was where I learned she told the counselor that her lawyer told her she would probably lose at trial.  But that news was learned after the the Trial Day settlement.  She had delayed our case as long as she could because she had a very favorable temp order the entire time (separation and divorce process) and the court never modified the temp orders.

So much good info here - thank you!

We definitely have some similarities in our cases. I know my ex is doing everything possible to delay this because she has a favorable temporary order that has zero justification to it.

Did your CE ever see your son's therapy records where your ex bashed you like that?

Also, what - if anything - did the CE say about the completely fabricated abuse charges? IMO, it's a shame that courts don't come down harder on people that do that.

Very good idea to read that book to your son as that was all unfolding.

The part about your ex not being able to share "her" child, but you being able to - ding, ding, ding! I hope our CE will see that that's the case in our situation as well.

In the CE's recommendation, what would have been the parenting time split in the event that shared parenting didn't work and you became the custodian?

[ForeverDad]

Did your CE ever see your son's therapy records where your ex bashed you like that?

I received over 200 pages of printouts from the counseling notes.  Yes, I made a copy for him, complete with yellow post-its throughout for false claims and weird statements.  In his report he stated I was overly concerned with highlighting every discrepancy.

Also, what - if anything - did the CE say about the completely fabricated abuse charges? IMO, it's a shame that courts don't come down harder on people that do that.

Agencies and professionals either (1) ignored it as not reaching the level of being actionable, or (2) it was too vague hearsay such as with "he always..." or "she always...", or (3) without documentation it was declared "unsubstantiated".  (Coming out and strongly declaring something as "unfounded" is rare.  Courts and professionals prefer to use passive phrases.  They never called my ex a liar, though once one of her statements in testimony was called "not credible".)

There is no pre-set limit on how many allegations can be made.  On my more jaded days I would say their position was "maybe on ex's 100th allegation there might be something they could act upon".

A very few here have reported getting "gate keeping" orders where the litigious Ex is required to first apply to a specific judge for permission to file an allegation.  I recall one was LivednLearned.

[alleyesonme]

I received over 200 pages of printouts from the counseling notes.  Yes, I made a copy for him, complete with yellow post-its throughout for false claims and weird statements.  In his report he stated I was overly concerned with highlighting every discrepancy.

Agencies and professionals either (1) ignored it as not reaching the level of being actionable, or (2) it was too vague hearsay such as with "he always..." or "she always...", or (3) without documentation it was declared "unsubstantiated".  (Coming out and strongly declaring something as "unfounded" is rare.  Courts and professionals prefer to use passive phrases.  They never alled my ex a liar, though once one of her statements in testimony was called "no credible".)

There is no pre-set limit on how many allegations can be made.  On my more jaded days I would say their position was "maybe on ex's 100th allegation there might be something they could act upon".

A very few here have reported getting "gate keeping" orders where the litigious Ex is required to first apply to a specific judge for permission to file an allegation.  I recall one was LivednLearned.

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but who wouldn't be overly concerned with pointing out every discrepancy when you'd been through all of that for two years and your future relationship with your son was on the line? I know the CE's report was generally very favorable to you, but that statement by the evaluator really bothers me on your behalf.

That's such a shame that her lies didn't damage her credibility even more, and at the same time boost yours just as much. It's tough to have faith in the legal system when you hear about experiences like yours, and you eventually achieved a positive outcome, although it took longer than it should have in a perfect world.