Update on divorce, etc.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

It's been a while since I've posted anything. Nothing major is happening, but maybe it's helpful to have some of this out there so others can see one way things might go after filing for divorce.

It's been eight months since I filed for divorce and four months since I got an order of protection against my wife. It took her two months after filing to hire an attorney, and then another month for her to respond to the initial complaint. It then took another three months for her to respond to the first set of interrogatories and give me her list of interrogatories/requests for documents. The rules of civil procedure here call for no more than 30 questions in the first set of interrogatories. She and her lawyer asked 99. It took me about a month and a half to answer them and collect the over 2100 pages of documents. Those were delivered to her lawyer a few weeks ago. At this point my lawyer is trying to schedule mediation, but that has not happened yet. Hopefully it does soon. It's kind of amazing to me how slow this process is. I don't even know what we're fighting over in terms of a settlement because we haven't gotten to any discussions about that. We don't have kids and we don't have complicated finances at all. This shouldn't be that challenging. But apparently it is, and it is frustrating for this all to move at a glacial pace. But the last time I spoke to her about any of this, she said her main directive to her lawyer was to slow this down, and apparently he is doing that. 

After about a month of not hearing from my w at all after I was granted the order of protection, she started routinely violating it in various ways. She has set up a number of anonymous email accounts that she uses to send cryptic messages. She has emailed me from her own account a few times. She has sent anonymous texts. And she definitely stalks me. I have seen her in her car numerous times on campus and around town at places she knows I am likely to be. A couple of weeks ago, I saw her three days in a row in places she has no reason to be except that she knows I am there. I'm suspicious that she has put a tracker on my truck, but I can't find it for the life of me. I went and visited some people in my hometown a while ago and she sent a cryptic email that night that referenced having safe travels. The last time I saw her in town, I just drove around for a while. And there she was. I would go park somewhere, and she'd drive by. I'd drive down random streets, and she'd pass me. I came back to campus, and she drove by. This went on for about an hour and a half. My favorite part of this one is that she then sent me an email a few days later telling me to stop following her. Um, yeah, sure thing. That email also contained one of her old favorite threats--to reveal all of my "secrets," mainly about abuse I experienced as a child. That she attempts to weaponize that still takes me back a bit.

I have not pressed for any legal consequences for the violations. I have notified my lawyer, and he has notified hers on at least a couple of occasions, but I have not sought a hearing. We are still currently under a temporary order. My main reason for not doing so is that I don't want to escalate things before we even get to mediation. I don't see that going well as it is, but I especially don't see it going well if I escalate things legally.

Mainly, I am just ready to start seeing an end to this process. I've been in weekly therapy for about six months, and that's been very helpful. It is amazing how different everything looks when I'm not in the middle of a crisis all the time. Just having some breathing room has been amazing, and being able to take that space and process and work through things has been life-changing. It's frustrating to kind of see what the other side of all of this can look like, but then be mired in the divorce process for some indefinite period of time. I suppose all I can do is play my part in trying to move this along, and then wait for her to do hers.

So that's where things are now.

[stolencrumbs]

It's been a while since I've posted anything. Nothing major is happening, but maybe it's helpful to have some of this out there so others can see one way things might go after filing for divorce.

It's been eight months since I filed for divorce and four months since I got an order of protection against my wife. It took her two months after filing to hire an attorney, and then another month for her to respond to the initial complaint. It then took another three months for her to respond to the first set of interrogatories and give me her list of interrogatories/requests for documents. The rules of civil procedure here call for no more than 30 questions in the first set of interrogatories. She and her lawyer asked 99. It took me about a month and a half to answer them and collect the over 2100 pages of documents. Those were delivered to her lawyer a few weeks ago. At this point my lawyer is trying to schedule mediation, but that has not happened yet. Hopefully it does soon. It's kind of amazing to me how slow this process is. I don't even know what we're fighting over in terms of a settlement because we haven't gotten to any discussions about that. We don't have kids and we don't have complicated finances at all. This shouldn't be that challenging. But apparently it is, and it is frustrating for this all to move at a glacial pace. But the last time I spoke to her about any of this, she said her main directive to her lawyer was to slow this down, and apparently he is doing that. 

After about a month of not hearing from my w at all after I was granted the order of protection, she started routinely violating it in various ways. She has set up a number of anonymous email accounts that she uses to send cryptic messages. She has emailed me from her own account a few times. She has sent anonymous texts. And she definitely stalks me. I have seen her in her car numerous times on campus and around town at places she knows I am likely to be. A couple of weeks ago, I saw her three days in a row in places she has no reason to be except that she knows I am there. I'm suspicious that she has put a tracker on my truck, but I can't find it for the life of me. I went and visited some people in my hometown a while ago and she sent a cryptic email that night that referenced having safe travels. The last time I saw her in town, I just drove around for a while. And there she was. I would go park somewhere, and she'd drive by. I'd drive down random streets, and she'd pass me. I came back to campus, and she drove by. This went on for about an hour and a half. My favorite part of this one is that she then sent me an email a few days later telling me to stop following her. Um, yeah, sure thing. That email also contained one of her old favorite threats--to reveal all of my "secrets," mainly about abuse I experienced as a child. That she attempts to weaponize that still takes me back a bit.

I have not pressed for any legal consequences for the violations. I have notified my lawyer, and he has notified hers on at least a couple of occasions, but I have not sought a hearing. We are still currently under a temporary order. My main reason for not doing so is that I don't want to escalate things before we even get to mediation. I don't see that going well as it is, but I especially don't see it going well if I escalate things legally.

Mainly, I am just ready to start seeing an end to this process. I've been in weekly therapy for about six months, and that's been very helpful. It is amazing how different everything looks when I'm not in the middle of a crisis all the time. Just having some breathing room has been amazing, and being able to take that space and process and work through things has been life-changing. It's frustrating to kind of see what the other side of all of this can look like, but then be mired in the divorce process for some indefinite period of time. I suppose all I can do is play my part in trying to move this along, and then wait for her to do hers.

So that's where things are now.

[Cat Familiar]

Nice to hear from you, stolencrumbs. You sound like you’re in a very healthy mind space, despite the circumstances.

How interesting that your wife has shown herself to be so resourceful when the opportunity has presented itself.

[GaGrl]

What resources are in your area to help you locate a tracker on your car? It does sound as if there is one somewhere.

[worriedStepmom]

Is mediation required in your jurisdiction?

Do you think mediation will work?  Or is she just going to delay and make wild demands that make no sense?

If mediation is unlikely to work, then I'd start filing for legal consequences for the violations of the protective order.   She's feeling really entitled now, because she is setting the pace for the divorce and she is able to stalk you with no consequences.  If she gets mad and escalates, she either ends up with serious legal consequences or the mediation ends really early and you go in front of a judge (where you'd probably end up anyway).

[GaGrl]

You can give mediation one chance, to show court that you attempted it. At the end (or during!) what could be a two or three hour session, if you have not agreed on anything, you can say, "This is not productive. My lawyer will handle further discussions. The non-contact order remains in place and will be enforced. Good day."

Also, you do not have to be in the same room with her during mediation. Make sure your lawyer and mediator know you need separate rooms, with the mediator going back and forth between rooms. This is not uncommon.

Don't expect mediation to succeed.

[I Am Redeemed]

Is it possible she's tracking your phone and not your vehicle?

I'm sure you're documenting all the emails and texts. You might try to find some way to document that she's deliberately following you. From her message to you, it sounds like she may be doing this but trying to make it appear that you are the stalker, not her.

You might think about documenting your own travels and then any correlating communication you receive from her, such as the message she sent when you visited your friends. It demonstrates a pattern of behavior.

[GaGrl]

I agree with Cat.

[babyducks]

hello stolencrumbs,

appreciate the update.   I think it is always helpful to hear from those coming out the other side of their experience.

But the last time I spoke to her about any of this, she said her main directive to her lawyer was to slow this down, and apparently he is doing that. 

Is that what you want?   to slow this down?   what exactly are the benefits to you to keep this at a slow pace?

After about a month of not hearing from my w at all after I was granted the order of protection, she started routinely violating it in various ways.

having read a bunch of your posts I do really understand that you prefer the carrot to the stick.    I've also observed that you report better results when you have more of a balance of the carrot and the stick.

I have not pressed for any legal consequences for the violations. I have notified my lawyer, and he has notified hers on at least a couple of occasions, but I have not sought a hearing. We are still currently under a temporary order. My main reason for not doing so is that I don't want to escalate things before we even get to mediation. I don't see that going well as it is, but I especially don't see it going well if I escalate things legally.

I suppose all I can do is play my part in trying to move this along, and then wait for her to do hers.

hmmmmm.    you don't have high expectations for mediation.   but aren't willing to burn that bridge completely.   it seems to me that any threat that endangers your future requires push back.   perhaps you can uncouple these two, the mediation and when she crosses into unacceptable behavior.    your wife thrives on negative attention and negative energy.   they allow her to feed her own self generating narrative of 'how things are'.   i.e. always horrible.   they allow her to continue her delusions.   is it possible to push back against her by introducing a dose of shame into her narrative.    I understand that's not a palatable concept.    and normally something to be avoided.   still, it seems that being  passive allows her to set the pace and direct the narrative.     which doesn't seem to be working for you.   

I am glad to read you are in therapy and are feeling free of the constant crisis.  that's a huge step and very hard fought.   I would encourage you to continue to advocate for your rights and your comfort.      Standing up for what you want, simply because you want it, is okay to do.   

wishing you the best
'ducks

[stolencrumbs]

Thanks for the replies.

Cat: Yes, I agree about her resourcefulness. I never wanted to see the suicide threats as being mainly a manipulation tool, and I guess I still don't see them as completely being that, and I still worry that she might follow through with that, but eight months after the thing she always told me would absolutely end her life happened, it hasn't.

Re: the tracker: I don't *think* it is my phone. I was suspicious of that at one point. I have done a factory reset on my phone and set it up through a different google account. We're not on the same phone plan, and I haven't had location services on in years. She's never had physical access to the phone I have now, and I can't figure out how she could be using it to track me. I think a tracker on my truck is more likely, but again, I can't find one. She's never had access to the inside of the truck and I've searched exhaustively on the exterior and undercarriage. It's now been a couple of weeks since there's been anything that makes me think she's following me, which all coincided with her email to me asking me to stop following her. I do think she's trying to do some CYA here, and my guess is that if there was a tracker on my truck, she took it off after this. But all of that is just a guess. The possibility of tracking does bother me, but what bothers me more is the stalker-aspect of it where she not only follows me, but seems to want me to know that she is doing that.

I am documenting everything I can document. I do have one video of her just sitting in her parked car across the street from the brewery I was at. I thought it looked like her car. I asked a friend to drive by and check the license plate. It was her. Then I got video of it. Otherwise, I've made note of all of these things and notified my attorney every time. She's also done some other weird things that seem like they might be part of some larger plan she has that I don't know about. For example, on Valentine's Day, she signed up for an e-card service with my email address and then sent herself cards that looked like they were being sent by me. I got a notification that the card was delivered, canceled the account, and sent screenshots and such to my attorney. Weird.  And that's just what I know about. So who knows what else she's signed me up for that I don't know about.

Stepmom: Yes, mediation is required where I am. I don't expect it to go well. The mediator we are using has only not settled one case in the last five years, so that's promising. But as I tell my lawyer, the mediator has never dealt with my wife. So we'll see. I am not optimistic. I do feel like making it to mediation without any more legal action is the best bet, though. And my lawyer thinks having that on the table as a possibility might be leverage for getting her to settle. If mediation goes nowhere, I will rethink what I do about her violating the order of protection.

Ducks: No, the slow pace is not what I want and it doesn't benefit me at all. I just don't know what I can do to speed it up. By all accounts, she hired a good lawyer with a good reputation. He knows how long he can wait to respond to things before the court is going to care.

I agree that the passivity isn't really working. She has pretty clearly been testing the boundary of the protective order. It scared her at first and she really didn't violate it. Then she started anonymous emails, and nothing happened. Then anonymous texts and nothing happened. Then emails from her account and nothing happened. Then stalking and nothing happened. I do see that.

I guess right now I feel like what I'm dealing with is much, much better than what I was dealing with a few months ago before the protective order, and I can deal with that for a bit longer to try to make it to mediation without escalating anything. If mediation goes well, great. If not, I don't think she's going to stop violating the order, and will likely get bolder in what she does, and I will take additional legal action then. Of course, it might get worse before then, in which case I may reconsider this tact. But that's where I am now. I just really want this to be done, and I am holding out some sliver of hope that we can come to a settlement in mediation. I really don't even know what we are fighting over. I asked for three things from the house, none of which have any real value. I am willing to divide the assets we have heavily in her favor. I am not willing to pay alimony in futuro, which is what I suspect she wants, but according to my L, no judge is going to give her that and her L surely knows that. So my guess is that the fight will be about alimony--both amount and duration. But that really does seem like something that we ought to be able to come to some agreement about without dragging this into court to get a ruling that is very likely going to be worse for her than what I would agree to.

Anyway, I do get the point about the ineffectiveness of my passivity. I do think my passivity is time-limited at this point. I have done my part to move this forward and the ball is currently in her court. I want to see what she does with it and then proceed accordingly.

[I Am Redeemed]

My take on mediation is that it won't matter how reasonable you are, or how fair. If her goal is to postpone the finalization of the divorce for as long as possible, she will not agree to anything that speeds it up, even if it benefits her.

I think she views the divorce as win/lose. She didn't want it, you did. If you get the divorce over and done with, you "win". She will not cooperate with anything that gives you that "win".

[stolencrumbs]

My take on mediation is that it won't matter how reasonable you are, or how fair. If her goal is to postpone the finalization of the divorce for as long as possible, she will not agree to anything that speeds it up, even if it benefits her.

I think she views the divorce as win/lose. She didn't want it, you did. If you get the divorce over and done with, you "win". She will not cooperate with anything that gives you that "win".

I think that's probably right, unfortunately. One of the last things she told me before I got the order of protection was that "there can be reconciliation or there can be justice--your choice." And I'm pretty sure her idea of justice looks more like vengeance.

[formflier]

SC,

Thanks for posting your experiences.

You should be able to sort out the tracking fairly quickly.

See if you have an Enterprise rental car close by.  They will come pick you up.  Try a couple days in a different car and see if her pattern changes.

Then try a couple of days using uber/lyft.

If that doesn't change the pattern then I'm pretty sure it's your phone...fitbit or something else that you are not thinking about.

I do think that it is wise for you to be deliberate about figuring out the tracking.  Keep lots of detailed notes.

I also think it is a mistake for you to not press for consequences on the order, although at this point I would think it wise to figure out tracking and then press for consequences.

When you press for consequences you will probably want to amend the order to specifically handle following you around, "spying" on you and expand the distance she must keep from you.

Hang in there SC,

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

She has pretty clearly been testing the boundary of the protective order. It scared her at first and she really didn't violate it. Then she started anonymous emails, and nothing happened. Then anonymous texts and nothing happened. Then emails from her account and nothing happened. Then stalking and nothing happened. I do see that.

My Ex "stalked" me for about 3 years after we split up and she ended the relationship.    for about a year I saw her at least several times a week.   There was a community garden in my city neighborhood, right across the street from my condo.   My EX got involved in that garden.   Of all the gardens in the world.   She was often across the street from my front door.    At that time I had several roles that required me to often be at public events representing my organization.    Every public event she was there.    You get the idea.

what I found creepy about it, even frightening about it, was how unpredictable and impulsive it was.   and how detached from reality it was.    like the valentines day cards that came from you... supposedly.    I spent a lot of time saying to myself 'what the   are you thinking here?'  'what's the point of all this?'.   there were no boundaries around her behavior, no well defined stopping points.    and the reality testing was so poor.    My former psychologist said about a million times throughout this period "OMG, who does this?"

my Ex was generating her own reality.  I guess it all made sense in her head.   all these convoluted gymnastics of who was where and who sat next to who proved something to her.    my best guess now, looking back at it, she was forcing me to "see" her.    for someone who had a very weak sense of self, I think she often felt invisible if she wasn't engaged with people in some non healthy way.

I was very fortunate that my Ex never crossed the line and acted out.    But I also can't say I felt safe through much of this.    the possibility was always there and felt very real.    my P and I joked about what we would do if she showed up at my appointment and banged on the door demanding entry.   but we really weren't joking.   if you know what I mean.

there is a part of me that wishes that there were some consequences for my Ex's stalking behavior.    and I suppose the consequence was she made both of us miserable for years.   untangling our finances and housing was simple compared to most.  but her unwillingness to let go, to keep me in her life by frequenting places and events that were important to me, was quite damaging.  damaging to me I mean.

I find myself in agreement with I Am Redeemed.

My take on mediation is that it won't matter how reasonable you are, or how fair.

Being reasonable and fair has never really impacted your wife's behavior.   She never stopped threatening to burn the house down because you were reasonable and fair.    So as I see it,   the only reason to be reasonable and fair is because it makes you feel better, more comfortable, matches your values, reflects your world view.    If that isn't true, I would suggest giving your wife a hard shove back into her lane.

my two cents.
'ducks

[formflier]

So what are you hoping to accomplish or that she will be like at mediation...? 

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

So what are you hoping to accomplish or that she will be like at mediation...? 

Best,

FF

I'd like to settle, and I think the more she feels cornered or like I'm trying to "get" her somehow, the less likely she is to settle. Again, I don't think a settlement is likely, but I still think it's possible. I think she trusts and likes her attorney, and i know that I am going to be reasonable and fair, and I hope her L will be able to convince her to take what is on the table instead of risking a worse outcome at trial. I think any chance of that vanishes if I push her violations of the order of protection. If she doesn't escalate what she's doing, I can live with it until we can see if mediation can work. My goal is to keep avenues open that get this over with as soon as possible.

[formflier]

 
When is mediation scheduled? 

Basically I'm asking how much longer you have to endure this?

Best,

FF

[Warriorprincess]

Dear StolenCrumbs,
I’m in mediation with my wifewBPD right now, and she is painting a picture of herself as the eternal victim. I’m lucky that so far things are getting done in a timely manner, so I absolutely feel for you with all the delays. There was one thing in your initial update that really struck me: “That email also contained one of her old favorite threats--to reveal all of my "secrets," mainly about abuse I experienced as a child. That she attempts to weaponize that still takes me back a bit.” It is incredibly hurtful and truly unbelievable when my W brings up my abusive childhood. In my case, to hit as below the belt as she can, she tells me I’m lying about it and nothing really happened to me - I just “claim” that everyone abuses me. She’s gone to my sister and my sister-in-law about my supposed “pathology” about making up abuse. Unfortunately I made the mistake of telling her once that accusing a victim of making things up is the worst thing you could do to someone - so I told her how she could hurt me. What I didn’t know then is that there are worse things - such as, telling my brother’s wife about things my brother did to me. My sis-in-law was confused and upset. Who goes to an innocent bystander and tells them that? I just cant wrap my head around it.
Best of luck,
Warriorprincess

[stolencrumbs]

When is mediation scheduled? 

Basically I'm asking how much longer you have to endure this?

Best,

FF

There is no date set. My L has been attempting to schedule it for at least six months. I don't know what else there is that can delay it much longer, but if there is something, I'm sure my w will find it.

[stolencrumbs]

Dear StolenCrumbs,
I’m in mediation with my wifewBPD right now, and she is painting a picture of herself as the eternal victim. I’m lucky that so far things are getting done in a timely manner, so I absolutely feel for you with all the delays. There was one thing in your initial update that really struck me: “That email also contained one of her old favorite threats--to reveal all of my "secrets," mainly about abuse I experienced as a child. That she attempts to weaponize that still takes me back a bit.” It is incredibly hurtful and truly unbelievable when my W brings up my abusive childhood. In my case, to hit as below the belt as she can, she tells me I’m lying about it and nothing really happened to me - I just “claim” that everyone abuses me. She’s gone to my sister and my sister-in-law about my supposed “pathology” about making up abuse. Unfortunately I made the mistake of telling her once that accusing a victim of making things up is the worst thing you could do to someone - so I told her how she could hurt me. What I didn’t know then is that there are worse things - such as, telling my brother’s wife about things my brother did to me. My sis-in-law was confused and upset. Who goes to an innocent bystander and tells them that? I just cant wrap my head around it.
Best of luck,
Warriorprincess

That's awful. I'm sorry that happened. It does feel like hitting way below the belt, and knowingly hitting below the belt. My w started by sending emails to my mom about it. Then she widened the scope and sent emails about it to everyone in my family whose email she had, hoping to send it to the person who abused me (I never told her who  it was, just that it happened.) Her newest thing she told me in email is that "we can all chat about it on the record in court." Seriously, wtf? My other favorite part about it is that when she emailed my family, she played the part of protecting me. The email was chastising my family for not protecting me, telling them what awful people they are, etc. Hang in there.

[formflier]

Might be worth discussing with your attorney an "automatic consequence" of some sort if she communicates with your family members outside approval of the court (which she will never gain)

Hoping that if she emails at some point in the future that ends payments/support until ? 

Basically you want to put her in the position of getting something she wants turned back on and or proving you turned it off inappropriately...rather than you trying to prove the court needs to do something to her.

Best,

FF

[Warriorprincess]

I'm sorry it happened to you too. My w also started under the guise of protecting me, but she was dissatisfied with the response she got from my family members (no response). So she told me well since your family denies it, you must be lying. It's way below the belt, vile, and despicable in my opinion. I am lucky that my family didn't get angry with me about it; rather my sister said it best, "A spouse who accuses you of lying about your childhood tells me all I need to know about their unsuitability." I would extend that statement to using childhood abuse as any sort of weapon.

I like FF's suggestion of "an "automatic consequence" of some sort if she communicates with your family members outside approval of the court (which she will never gain)." Also the idea of withholding support payments unless she follows certain guidelines. I'll plan to do that if my w crosses this line again. She wants support payments from me for 15 months and she wants to keep both dogs, so I do feel like I have some leverage if she starts getting nasty.

Thank you for compassion. -WP

[stolencrumbs]

So mediation is set for early July and we have a court date in October. Both of those dates seem really far away.

I met with my L today and he convinced me, after talking with my W's L, to dissolve the order of protection and replace it with an order that allows for minimal contact--she can only email (and it must be "reasonable") and she is prohibited from stalking, harassing, etc. This comes from my L who got it from her L, but my W is "fixated" on the order of protection and the chances of a settlement or mediation succeeding are virtually nil if the order is in place. The order of protection was dismissed without prejudice, so if she continues to do what she's doing, I can file it again. And the new order still carries the possibility of contempt, and my lawyer assures me our judge is not shy about finding people in contempt when they violate these kinds of orders. Still, I'm nervous about what my W might do if she feels freer to contact me. I guess I'm about to find out.

I'm also going to get the house appraised and come up with some kind of settlement offer before mediation. There is just zero advantage--financially or otherwise--of dragging this into court in October. I guess I feel like I'm giving her one more chance to stay between the guardrails and do what is ultimately in her own best interest. I'm not optimistic, but we'll see.   

[livednlearned]

I really feel for you. Hang in there.

Probably can't hurt to prepare for more of the same after the PO is dropped  

Not to say it's a right or wrong move to drop the PO.

My lawyer and ex's lawyer agreed to a watered down minimal agreement instead of a PO and the stonewalling definitely didn't stop. Some behaviors toned down then flared up again. I learned to adapt to the new normal and figured out how my courts worked, and then figured out how to close the loops. There are a lot of loops in the family law system.

There's a compulsion with some BPD sufferers to stay negatively engaged at all costs. It's a way of having the relationship without actively being in it.

For my ex, contempt of court was like getting a parking ticket. Being ordered to pay legal fees meant nothing. Your ex might be less bold (mine was an attorney).

The leverage you have is that you can file the PO again if she tests things. If that happens, and you are wavering about putting it back into place, see if you can get something in return, like getting her to move forward with the house if she's stonewalling on that.

She may move her focus to the house now that the PO is removed ... it probably depends on the degree to which this satisfies her compulsion to engage you. There are so many ways to prevent the sale of a house. It took me 4 trips to court and a separate real estate lawyer to give my ex the house.

If I were to do it again, I would never offer the house with no conditions. Instead, I would make an offer, and then set deadlines and reasonable consequences for non-compliance.

You may have to get creative with your circumstances and think about what might compel her to comply. If she doesn't comply, then have a consequence that you can actually enforce or one that you can do without her participation or consent.

For example, maybe you propose that you'll select three realtors and she can pick the one she wants to go with by day/date. If she hasn't picked one by then, you pick. The consequence is that you can move forward without her, and her consent is written the agreement as a consequence for not doing the reasonable thing.  

Another example might be that you two will work together on any house offers that come in. If neither of you can agree, then any offer within 5 percent of the asking price will automatically be in play. If parties cannot agree to multiple offers within 5 percent, then the one that is most profitable/has the fewest conditions will automatically go forward. Really work on that language ahead of time, thinking through as many scenarios as you can imagine so that you aren't stuck trying to convince her to do what makes most sense -- she will sense that you want something and she'll be hell bent on making sure you lose what you want so she can win, even if it means she loses too.

And when you do get something written up or ordered by a judge, it can help to have your lawyer be the one who writes it up. If you can get that, be sure there are consequences for non-compliance. Have deadlines and what will happen after those deadlines are missed. It could be things that you take away from your offer (like a percentage of the proceeds to cover court costs), or it could be actions that you take if she doesn't do her part by the deadline (like splitting the cost of a stager out of proceeds if the house hasn't sold by day/date).

That way, if you do have to return to court, the judge doesn't give her another bite of the apple that you end up paying for.

I wasted a lot of money watching the judge give my ex micro consequences that he perceived as finger wags. If I had written consequences into the order, then the judge would've ruled the way the order was written. "It says here if you don't do x, then y will happen. So that's what happens. You pay stolencrumbs $$ for not doing x."

You don't want to be a repeat customer in court if she's going to *stalk* you through the legal process, whether it's selling your home or other parts of the divorce.

[stolencrumbs]

I really feel for you. Hang in there.

Probably can't hurt to prepare for more of the same after the PO is dropped  

Not to say it's a right or wrong move to drop the PO.

My lawyer and ex's lawyer agreed to a watered down minimal agreement instead of a PO and the stonewalling definitely didn't stop. Some behaviors toned down then flared up again. I learned to adapt to the new normal and figured out how my courts worked, and then figured out how to close the loops. There are a lot of loops in the family law system.

There's a compulsion with some BPD sufferers to stay negatively engaged at all costs. It's a way of having the relationship without actively being in it.

For my ex, contempt of court was like getting a parking ticket. Being ordered to pay legal fees meant nothing. Your ex might be less bold (mine was an attorney).

The leverage you have is that you can file the PO again if she tests things. If that happens, and you are wavering about putting it back into place, see if you can get something in return, like getting her to move forward with the house if she's stonewalling on that.

She may move her focus to the house now that the PO is removed ... it probably depends on the degree to which this satisfies her compulsion to engage you. There are so many ways to prevent the sale of a house. It took me 4 trips to court and a separate real estate lawyer to give my ex the house.

If I were to do it again, I would never offer the house with no conditions. Instead, I would make an offer, and then set deadlines and reasonable consequences for non-compliance.

You may have to get creative with your circumstances and think about what might compel her to comply. If she doesn't comply, then have a consequence that you can actually enforce or one that you can do without her participation or consent.

For example, maybe you propose that you'll select three realtors and she can pick the one she wants to go with by day/date. If she hasn't picked one by then, you pick. The consequence is that you can move forward without her, and her consent is written the agreement as a consequence for not doing the reasonable thing.  

Another example might be that you two will work together on any house offers that come in. If neither of you can agree, then any offer within 5 percent of the asking price will automatically be in play. If parties cannot agree to multiple offers within 5 percent, then the one that is most profitable/has the fewest conditions will automatically go forward. Really work on that language ahead of time, thinking through as many scenarios as you can imagine so that you aren't stuck trying to convince her to do what makes most sense -- she will sense that you want something and she'll be hell bent on making sure you lose what you want so she can win, even if it means she loses too.

And when you do get something written up or ordered by a judge, it can help to have your lawyer be the one who writes it up. If you can get that, be sure there are consequences for non-compliance. Have deadlines and what will happen after those deadlines are missed. It could be things that you take away from your offer (like a percentage of the proceeds to cover court costs), or it could be actions that you take if she doesn't do her part by the deadline (like splitting the cost of a stager out of proceeds if the house hasn't sold by day/date).

That way, if you do have to return to court, the judge doesn't give her another bite of the apple that you end up paying for.

I wasted a lot of money watching the judge give my ex micro consequences that he perceived as finger wags. If I had written consequences into the order, then the judge would've ruled the way the order was written. "It says here if you don't do x, then y will happen. So that's what happens. You pay stolencrumbs $$ for not doing x."

You don't want to be a repeat customer in court if she's going to *stalk* you through the legal process, whether it's selling your home or other parts of the divorce.

Thanks! That is all super helpful, and stuff I will definitely keep in mind when we actually get to the point of negotiating anything. I now wish I had pushed my L to be more specific about the terms of the new order--more specificity about what she can contact me about, i.e., house repairs, vet care for our dogs, etc, and what would happen if she broke that. I don't like the catch-all "reasonable communication" clause, but we'll see how it goes. I really like the idea of building in some automatic consequences into the agreements. I don't think my L normally gets that creative, but I think I can convince him to get creative. 

[livednlearned]

I really like the idea of building in some automatic consequences into the agreements. I don't think my L normally gets that creative, but I think I can convince him to get creative. 

Lawyers don't really have a reason to get creative because more trips to court, more phone calls = more money. You're the best advocate for yourself and your lawyer works for you, so a bunch of creativity is going to come from you. Your lawyer's job is to let you know if what you propose is reasonable, fair, and if the language will fly in court, and give you an idea about how similar issues have been solved before, etc.

Basically, all you're doing is problem-solving 5 steps ahead and putting in consequences and contingencies for non-compliance or stonewalling 

[kells76]

I wonder if sharing any of Bill Eddy's articles with your L might help him/her understand the "creativity" necessary in your case, or at least give some structured vocabulary to how you guys talk about strategy -- that this isn't just a garden-variety "well, she's sort of stalking me and finds it hard to let go" kind of thing. She's a high-conflict person and so traditional legal approaches won't come anywhere near protecting you from her.

Of course, you may be past that point with your L already -- I can't remember how on board he/she is with the true nature of your W.

Eddy's articles page is here:

https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/blog

And a "40 traits of HCP" article is here:

https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/hci-articles/anybody-you-know-40-predictable-characteristics-of-high-conflict-people

[MeandThee29]

I'm sorry that you are going through this. It helped me a lot to know that complicated cases are the norm when a PD is involved. It wasn't me, it was my ex that was driving it. Thankfully both attorneys knew that.

My attorney was indeed a specialist in high conflict divorce and knew all about Bill Eddy and recommended his books. However, things just kept stalling and expanding and moving. He was really frustrated that my case was relatively simple and just went on-and-on. Apparently my ex's attorney felt the same (they were friends).

Ironically it was something entirely outside of the case and then taking a chance several months later that got it settled out of court. I got a little concerned when my attorney started asking me what my gut feeling was and talking about looking for what he called "the wedge." He said that apart from court, he was running out of ways to contain the mess. So yes, we had to be creative. My attorney had 40+ years of experience, so I figured he would know an angle when he saw it. He did, and we settled without going to court. I was unbelievably grateful that I had hired him.

I truly admire people that go into divorce law. I would never have the emotional stamina for these kinds of cases. I'm a teacher and am fine with cranky students, but disordered spouses -- NOO!

[babyducks]

Any updates you would care to share SC?

How are things going for you now?

[stolencrumbs]

Any updates you would care to share SC?

How are things going for you now?

Thanks for checking in, ducks. Nothing new to report really. My wife has stuck to just email contact, and it hasn't gotten too out of control. There's lots of blame and victim-playing in pretty much all the emails, but that affects me much less than it used to. She does seem to still be tracking my whereabouts somehow, and I still can't figure out how. I've been on four different trips. On three of them, I got emails from her that made either direct or indirect references to me being out of town. In one, she knew who I was with. In another, she knew it was "vacation" and not a work trip. On one trip, I was in a rental car. On another short trip, I took a different phone. On another, she didn't seem to know I was gone at all. So I can't figure that out. Given how much money she claims to have spent already on the divorce, I think she might've hired a PI. But that's a guess at this point. I'm still trying to just make it to mediation, which is now two weeks away.

Her current stance is that mediation is pointless and that she will go sit there for however long we are required to, but she doesn't intend to settle anything. I'm going to try to trust the process and hope something can happen in mediation. She is often more bark than bite, so maybe she'll come around by then, or when she's actually sitting there with other people. None of it really makes sense, but that's expected. She simultaneously complains that this costs too much money while also having her lawyer threaten to file a motion to compel and delay mediation because my answers to their 99 interrogatories were "deficient" because I didn't provide an itemized list of what I bought with cash and because I didn't provide an account summary of my ID card that I use to buy lunch on campus. It's ridiculous and frustrating, but again, just hoping to make it to mediation and see what happens there.

The latest thing, which has happened in the last few days, is that one of our dogs (he is now 17, we rescued him when he was about 5) is dying. He has a giant tumor in his abdomen and there's nothing to do about it. So she's been emailing me about him, simultaneously telling me I don't care about the dogs and asking if I want to come over to see him, and asking that I help if he dies at home or go to the vet with her if she decides to euthanize him. I knew at some point she would use the dogs to try to get me to do something. I've talked about it with my therapist before all of this happened. We decided there wasn't really anything I could do or needed to do. But now that it's happening, it's hard to hold to that. I would like to see my dog alive again, and I'd like to be there when he dies if he is euthanized. But I don't want to see her and deal with whatever else will come along with seeing the dog, or be face-to-face with more suicide threats and guilt-tripping because the dog has died. I think I'm much less susceptible to all of that, but I don't really want to find out how susceptible I still might be.

All in all, I'm doing well. The rest of my life is great, and this part of my life occupies a whole lot less mental and emotional space than it did even a few months ago. I just want it all to be over and it's really frustrating how long it's taking. I am hoping the dog doesn't die before mediation and that something can get done then. Hope isn't really a plan, but that's the plan for now.

[GaGrl]

I agree that a highly emotional situation such as a pet euthanasia is not an appropriate space for you to share with your STBX. She is far too volatile.

On mediation...is the intent that you and your lawyer will be in the same room as STBX and her lawyer? Because you can request to be in separate rooms with the mediator moving between rooms.